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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Do you think Britain should leave the EU?  (Voting closed: March 18, 2016, 08:18 PM)
  • Yes - 9 (42.9%)
  • No - 12 (57.1%)
  • Undecided - 0 (0%)
  • Total Voters: 21

 Topic: Brexit - yes or no?

 (Read 39637 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 11 12 13« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #360 - November 05, 2016, 12:08 AM

    I work in an industry that depends on skilled non-white collar immigrants but only has a turnover of £4bn a year. Brexit has to be good for my industry, right?
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #361 - November 05, 2016, 12:19 AM

    Why did those people ever expect a Brexit campaign motivated largely by hostility towards immigrants who are white, Christian, Europeans to relax immigration for people who are non-white, Muslim/Hindu, Asians?  That was very gullible of them.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #362 - November 05, 2016, 08:42 AM

    Regardless of what procedure is used to trigger Article 50, and regardless of what the UK Parliament says on the subject, unless the British government is prepared to accept freedom of movement there will be a hard Brexit, because the EU will insist on it.  Britain is not going to be allowed to cherry pick the four freedoms which make up the founding principle of the EU, if they reject one, they lose them all.

    So its either continued freedom of movement with continued single market access, or hard Brexit and the UK joins the lengthy queue for a trade deal, somewhere behind Uganda.

    This is exactly the sort of thing Theresa May has been banging on about limiting it, as if it were what the referendum was about in its entirety.

    I posted at some length on this thread before the referendum took place touching on how the debate was being framed around immigration as it currently is as well as feared to increase in the future -- because of things like the indefinite enlargement of the EU which ‘will’ eventuate into a Superstate; bye-bye to all the residual national sovereignty.

    As far as Theresa May is concerned, that vigorous immigration genie -- which was partially hooked on steroids by the three swivel-eyed Brexisteers in her cabinet -- is now out of the bottle.

    No wonder that Brexit has come to mean to put a limit on the EU freedom of movement.

    Yes, as things stand the country looks like it has gone into self-destruction (over what could seem to be a national vanity, and something in the fancy league of the American doctrine of exceptionalism in relation to liberated less equal Europe) but I wouldn’t to be too certain about Britain’s inability to secure a favourable settlement with the EU when the time comes to negotiate.

    If the whole European project was largely conceived to maintain peace and security in Europe then it would seem to be in the interest of the EU to have Britain (a nuclear medium power) inside the cordial tent pissing outside then outside the tent pissing in.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #363 - November 05, 2016, 08:43 AM

    Oh and the schadenfreude in your posts is very hard to miss.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #364 - November 05, 2016, 09:47 AM

    Its more fury, barely restrained.   I don't suppose you have any understanding of the damage being done to my community.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #365 - November 05, 2016, 09:56 AM

    You are probably right -- I don't.  far away hug
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #366 - November 05, 2016, 05:58 PM

    Toor, in May 2012 I was in Cairo for a whole month and had the fleeting chance to sit to three interesting brotherhood chappies, not too far from Rabaa Al-Adawiya Mosque.

    One is clearly from the digerati, the other a consultant heart surgeon and the third is a graphic designer (and the school mate who taught me how use a computer in Unaizah).

    You would not believe how much the trio were so pro-democracy and the rule of law -- it probably had something to do with the parliamentary majority boot being in their preferred foot and political party.

    So, I asked them a simple question after which I had to launch on one of my constitutional tirades:

    Would it be lawful if the Egyptian parliament unanimously voted to expel all the Jewish and coptic citizens from the country?

    The answer came a resounding Yes.

    Ok. How about if parliament voted in favour of adopting [33:33] (وقرنّ في بيوتكن) and physically confining women to their households?

    Yes, it came back again.

    In their ardent belief in parliamentary democracy these clean-shaved brothers thought that everything was subject to the will of the people in a democracy including human rights and the right to dispense with minorities.


    They do not understand tyranny of the majority nor know the history of civil right battles against this majority. Is this how people are taught what democracy is in undemocratic Egypt?
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #367 - November 05, 2016, 09:05 PM

    I don't quite understand what exactly parliament can vote on.

    Requiring the Government to publicly lay out it's negotiating position prior to Article 50 being triggered will only weaken it's (our) position in the discussions. It's just about getting the best deal we can get now. I'm shocked by the number of 'bremoaners' I see on the news talking about Soft Brexit/Hard Brexit, Single Market blah blah blah.
    We had a referendum and voted to reject the four 'freedoms'. Those politicians arguing that people didn't know what they voted are only being dishonest, we voted to leave the EU and that is what we will do.




    It is too early to say what effect Brexit will have on non-EU migration but I expect in the long-term it will be positive, for obvious reasons. Infact, even now May and her team are in India talking about trade deals where the Indians have asked for visa concessions in return for favourable trade terms.

    Obviously having skilled migration from selected countries is better than having open borders where we get nothing in return for housing the many (though clearly not all) low skilled immigrants. One only needs to look at the large number of gypsies/Roma who have come to the UK and the effect this had on communities. I would say this was likely a very large part of the "immigration problem" many people voted on. Most English people simply don't know the difference between Gypsies and white europeans (The EU tries to confuse the two as per it's liberal agenda) so generally group them all together as eastern european migrants in discourse, unfortunately for the better integrated white eastern european migrant.

    We voted in the referendum to leave, all of it if necessary. There is nothing for the house of commons and house of lords to vote on, it can only be a legal formality. We will take whatever deal we can get and go it alone.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #368 - November 05, 2016, 11:36 PM

    I don't quite understand what exactly parliament can vote on.

    Requiring the Government to publicly lay out it's negotiating position prior to Article 50 being triggered will only weaken it's (our) position in the discussions. It's just about getting the best deal we can get now.


    Parliamentary scrutiny is exactly absolutely necessary to a decision as major as the above, unless you think it's simply a matter of foreign policy - which this whole panoply of matters would suggest isn't the case. Britain isn't really the sort of autocracy in which such considerations can be waved away yet, despite the best wishes of the Daily Express.

    We had a referendum and voted to reject the four 'freedoms'.


    I'm looking again at the ballot paper, as I didn't remember the question on it being nearly so specific. How do you figure?



    It is too early to say what effect Brexit will have on non-EU migration but I expect in the long-term it will be positive, for obvious reasons.

    Please explain.

    Infact, even now May and her team are in India talking about trade deals where the Indians have asked for visa concessions in return for favourable trade terms.

    You realise that this government has been working towards a long-term policy of reducing immigration numbers no matter what, and damn the consequences? What makes you think that this will change in any substantive way, given that allegedly popular nationwide opposition to immigration seems to be something the Tories are channeling (which is also what certain Labour MPs have been arguing for). Oh, and something like this? I don't think that'll happen anytime soon without looking like a magnificent climbdown.

    One only needs to look at the large number of gypsies/Roma who have come to the UK and the effect this had on communities. I would say this was likely a very large part of the "immigration problem" many people voted on. Most English people simply don't know the difference between Gypsies and white europeans (The EU tries to confuse the two as per it's liberal agenda) so generally group them all together as eastern european migrants in discourse, unfortunately for the better integrated white eastern european migrant.

    Antiziganism is what all the cool kids are into now, huh? Gotcha.

    We will take whatever deal we can get and go it alone.

    Well, if it's as simple as all that..

    ETA: punctuation.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #369 - November 06, 2016, 12:23 AM

    Well, it's not quite a classic Lexit he's aimed for, but finally: some movement from Corbyn.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #370 - November 06, 2016, 02:04 AM

    Parliamentary scrutiny is exactly absolutely necessary to a decision as major as the above, unless you think it's simply a matter of foreign policy - which this whole panoply of matters would suggest isn't the case. Britain isn't really the sort of autocracy in which such considerations can be waved away yet, despite the best wishes of the Daily Express.


    Britain is a democracy, and we voted to leave the EU. Any MP who votes against it will have to face the the 17 or so million who went out and casted a vote in the name of democracy. As I mentioned it can only be a legal formality.

    Jeremy Corbyn has made some demands and ofcourse the Government will have to discuss these things, However, I do not think it proper for Corbyn to hold the Government to ranson to bolster his popularity, while the Government aims to enact the will of the British people.

    Corbyn;s first demand is that British firms keep 100% access to the single market. Clearly this is not something that the PM can guarantee, as it depends on the outcome of the negotiations. Also, if the PM agrees, then the EU will know we need access and hence use that against us in the negotiations. Corbyn is rather unintelligent it seems, if he doesn't get this. 

    It would be really funny if Juncker came out tomorrow and said no way, you're not getting 100% access, that would pretty much shut Corbyn up. The point being this is not really in our hands and depends on the nature of the dealings.

    I'm looking again at the ballot paper, as I didn't remember the question on it being nearly so specific. How do you figure?

    (Clicky for piccy!)
    Please explain.


    The four freedoms are the basis of the Single Market. It was made clear we would likely have to exit the single market to exit the EU. If you didn't know (or don't remember) that you were voting to either stay in or leave the single market, then you probably shouldn't have voted.

    You realise that this government has been working towards a long-term policy of reducing immigration numbers no matter what, and damn the consequences? What makes you think that this will change in any substantive way, given that allegedly popular nationwide opposition to immigration seems to be something the Tories are channeling (which is also what certain Labour MPs have been arguing for). Oh, and something like this? I don't think that'll happen anytime soon without looking like a magnificent climbdown.


    The immigration issue in this country only arose with the large number of migrants coming in recently, especially from Eastern Europe. This is just my observation. I don't recall there being a public debate about it in the 90s or early 2000s, nor do I hear many people complaining about non-EU migrants.

    The large influx of EU migrants in such a short period of time has resulted in noticeable changes in many communities (according to the complaints I've heard), and a backlash to this has been a response to curb all kinds of immigration by the government. I don't think many Brits have issues with curry shops importing workers or banks importing programmers from India. The government is smart enough to understand that by importing skilled labour we can strengthen our economy. 

    Once we are free from the burden of uncontrolled low-skilled migration and things calm down, we can get back to the migration policy that seemed work for us prior to 2005 or so.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #371 - November 06, 2016, 11:52 AM

    I don't think things are going to be as bad as some are making out. To hear some people's reaction to voting Brexit, you'd think the rivers had run dry and the wine had turned to blood. Still, if things do go as badly as they possibly can, I'm happy that I'm entitled to an Irish passport.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #372 - November 06, 2016, 03:00 PM

    I don't think things are going to be as bad as some are making out. To hear some people's reaction to voting Brexit, you'd think the rivers had run dry and the wine had turned to blood. Still, if things do go as badly as they possibly can, I'm happy that I'm entitled to an Irish passport.

    King...  King Sum Eris...melord ..how are you doing??..,   Cheesy    Hmm with that word you are giving me some new ideas ., glad to read you

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #373 - November 11, 2016, 02:38 PM

    Britain is a democracy, and we voted to leave the EU. Any MP who votes against it will have to face the the 17 or so million who went out and casted a vote in the name of democracy. As I mentioned it can only be a legal formality.

    I do not think this is half as obvious a conclusion as you suggest. The relevant legislation for this vote - because Parliament is the supreme source of legislation, Parliamentary sovereignty and all that - did not specify that a 'leave' referendum result would legally bind any government to invoke Article 50. If it had done so, there would have been no need to take this to the High Court. Then again, it seems highly likely that the leave camp would be doing its best to challenge any electoral decision that would've gone the other way, so..

    The four freedoms are the basis of the Single Market. It was made clear we would likely have to exit the single market to exit the EU. If you didn't know (or don't remember) that you were voting to either stay in or leave the single market, then you probably shouldn't have voted.

    Oho, a would-be gaslighter. It may well have been about leaving the single market for the ideologically committed - and certainly that prospect was waved about as a spectre by Cameron and Osborne - but I doubt very much that it was the topmost issue for most. Me, I voted to remain, fully aware that few politicians would have chosen to leave the Single Market.

    I take it that you'd rather I hadn't voted. Very democratically minded of you.

    The immigration issue in this country only arose with the large number of migrants coming in recently, especially from Eastern Europe. This is just my observation. I don't recall there being a public debate about it in the 90s or early 2000s, nor do I hear many people complaining about non-EU migrants.

    The EDL and the like over the last decade fully acknowledged the indigenousness of Muslims in Britain. Sure.


    I don't think many Brits have issues with curry shops importing workers or banks importing programmers from India. The government is smart enough to understand that by importing skilled labour we can strengthen our economy. 

    Once we are free from the burden of uncontrolled low-skilled migration and things calm down, we can get back to the migration policy that seemed work for us prior to 2005 or so.

    Well, this government has had a stated goal of reducing immigration down to the tens of thousands per year since 2010, but for some reason they refuse to exclude students from immigration figures (which would be a good way of slashing numbers at a stroke); not the sanest way to encourage skilled migration, I'd suggest, but then the party has migrant-hating constituencies that won't go away. The Tory pro-business wing overlaps quite significantly with the pro-EU wing, I'd say, so whatever backlash faces the latter will face the former, and they do not appear to have the upper hand.

    Historically, long-term net migration has been on the rise since 1998, and so pre-2005 policy may not be much help; from 140,000 in 1998 to 268,000 in 2004, reaching 273,000 in 2007 (coincidentally, the year in which Polish immigration peaks in comparison to immigration from other countries). Compare this to gross migration: 391,000 in 1998, 589,000 in 2004, 574,000 in 2007. The years of peak gross migration in this data, incidentally, were 2010 and 2014 - 591,000 and 632,000 respectively; net migration for the same years: 256,000 and 313,000. The country providing the biggest contingent of (presumably skilled) immigrants in these peak years was India, but I somehow don't expect this to be acknowledged as an unalloyed good.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #374 - November 11, 2016, 09:26 PM

    Britain is a democracy, and we voted to leave the EU. Any MP who votes against it will have to face the the 17 or so million who went out and casted a vote in the name of democracy. As I mentioned it can only be a legal formality.

    ....some talk about an incompetent dickhead called Corbyn...

    The four freedoms are the basis of the Single Market. It was made clear we would likely have to exit the single market to exit the EU. If you didn't know (or don't remember) that you were voting to either stay in or leave the single market, then you probably shouldn't have voted.


    You're right, we must respect the referendum. Unfortunately. But the bastard referendum should never have happened IMO.

    In every democracy, there are limits. In our type of democracy, we vote for representatives, and then we pay them handsomely, so that they can make important decisions on our behalf. We do this because they can then do this job full-time, so they can become more informed than the average man, and so that they can see the wider implications of their decisions better than the average man.

    An issue with the wide-ranging implications such as Brexit should never have been offered as a referendum. It was done so because the Tory party, and that prick Cameron, decided in their Tory-greed, to gamble the nation's soul in order to secure an election victory. And many people who were voting failed to grasp exactly what they were voting for or against, nor the consequences of those choices. But that is not their fault. Too much information and misinformation was thrown their way, and it should never have been their job to make such an important and complicated call in the first place.

    So, imho, the referendum should never have happened. But now that it has, we must respect it and do what we can to pick up the pieces and carry on as best as we can. Our nation is poorer in so many ways because of the referendum, but we'll live, and we'll fight back one day and get over this shit.

    On the plus side, at least the US has taken the King Stupid crown off us?



    Hi
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #375 - November 12, 2016, 01:04 AM

    On the plus side, at least the US has taken the King Stupid crown off us?


    We couldn't rest until we put you tea drinkers back in your place!  finmad

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #376 - November 15, 2016, 10:05 PM

    I'm not sure about that.  Embarrassing as Donald Trump is, he's only POTUS for four years, Brexit is forever.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #377 - November 15, 2016, 11:11 PM

    Don't know Cheetah, he affects the wider world, more directly, and I suspect he'll leave a legacy that will be talked about for decades. And God knows what extremes he'll stir up in the years to come, both inside and outside his country.

    Hi
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #378 - November 15, 2016, 11:18 PM

    I think his most damaging legacy may be on the environment.  There's talk of pulling out of the Paris agreement on tackling climate change, and appointing Sarah Palin as Interior Secretary, which is the same as Minister for the Environment. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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