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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz

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  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #90 - February 16, 2016, 05:06 PM

    Yeah, I don't know, I remember listening to Nawaz on the radio the year of my broken car CD player and really finding him charismatic and intelligent and I was definitely impressed. I don't know anything else about him so I can't pass  judgment in what's being discussed in the OP, but I try to remember that none of us are perfect and we should play the ball and not the man. But...

    But it's tricky, justperusing, there's vultures at the door, and we all need to be careful about who we endorse and who we collaborate with if we want to remain effective communicators and relevant, and I do think that, for whatever reason, Nawaz has been pidgeonholed for now. I wish him luck from what I know of him, but I think he's going to win more support from the wrong crowd than the hearts and minds of Muslims.

    You know, the same thing happens to us here with how far right nutjobs want to use ex Muslims as ammo. We have to always tread that fine line and be aware of what we say and how we're presenting ourselves, and that's kind of why I had my biggest asshole moment on here and threw down with therationalizer. It's one thing to be "right" (as in correct) and that's hard, but it's much harder to be right and relevant. Right and effective. If you're not careful you'll do more harm than good and I think aggressive atheists who flock around Nawaz and Harris are not relevant and not effective, to put it kindly.


    I understand. However, I think unfairly castigating a key ally in the fight for a world with less religious sectarianism and violence is not a good idea. If we are only to express support for those that are in the precise sweet spot of where we would like their views, we'll spend all our time disagreeing and quickly become irrelevant. The way I see it, if Nawaz isnt seen as an ally, we've narrowed down our pool of allies to essentially nil against a tide of bigotry and complete accomadationism on the other side.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #91 - February 16, 2016, 05:27 PM

    The reason I took a shot at you at the beginning of this thread was because of the blatant hypocrisy of criticizing Maajid for calling names in leiu of actual argument (a completely untrue accusation) when I had just experienced a textbook use of that tactic from yourself in a previous thread. When dealing with intellectual and moral inconsistency like that, it's impossible not to point it out. Your arguments are the absolute low hanging fruit dripping with sweet juicy, unabashed hypocrisy that are just laying there to be effortlessly picked apart.


     For someone who accuses me of name calling and  being abusive, I do say beyond irony Cheesy


    Quote
    While I'm reluctant to get back on the merry go round of nastiness, name calling, and sweeping unsubstantiated generalizations of character with you, I'll deal with your points.


    Are you done with the fancy showboating adjectives? Cool,let's proceed.

    Quote
    ://youtu.be/SYPvv0X0hwM

    As you can see in this video (especially at the 2:00 mark) Nawaz lays out three factors behind radicalization:

    1) Anger or percieved grievance against society
    2) Identity crisis
    3) Islamism


    Yeah Yeah Yeah we all know about it,you are talking to an exxie son

    Quote
    Nawaz himself tells how the reason he was radicalized is because he considered himself a victim of systematic racism and was upset with the reaction to the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia. These factors primed him to accept Islamist ideology.


    Okay and....

    Quote
    he is listing more than just the factor of Islamist ideology's role in radicalization, and his own story attests to the arguably more important roles of the the other two factors, to think that Nawaz calls anyone who does not see Islamism as the sole reason behind extremism a regressive leftist is to be willfully ignorant or just plain dishonest.



    Jesus fuck,I was referring to the people like Sam Harris but let's ignore that while we are at it. If I have explicitly stated that about Nawaz then I have erred but it doesn't change my main argument

    Quote
    Maajid is also not responsible for his audience. The anti-Muslim bigots label Nawaz a taquiya (however it's spelled) peddler and think he's part of conspiracy to undermine western society from the inside.


    So the anti Muslim bigot are to be blamed for Maajid gaining the wrong audience instead of Muslims. Poor Maajid

     
    Quote
    They are idiots and hate Nawaz. Nawaz plays to the audience that wants to actually have a nuanced discussion without turning to bigots on the right or not blindly towing the "Islam is peace" narrative on the left. I've seen Nawaz shoot down plenty of right wing bigots (like Donald Trump).


    But then ended up having the wrong audience. Ok now you are being defensive



    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #92 - February 16, 2016, 06:31 PM

    Please tell me who are these "Regressive Leftists"   that  overlooks Islamism or defend Islamists for the sake of cultural tolerance because I haven't met or read about any Leftists that does that. Somehow I'm starting to believe that this so called Regressive Leftists are imaginary folks and after Sam Harris called Noam Chomsky the R word, I realised that the word is used against people who don't believe that Islam has everything to do with the rise of ISIS and Alqaeda without sociopolitical factors and historical factor that plays an important role behind.


    I have been called racist for stating facts that muslim government is divisive + discriminative. I stated facts that actually is true in my country and in many Islamic countries, yet they dismiss everything as ~cultural uwu~ because, well if Iraq was invaded then that's the only reason why Islamic extremism exist, and us nonmuslims who've been living under muslims the whole time and remain silent, well like we don't exist, never did and we don't matter. Also we're racist of some sort. The most recent event: LGBT and feminist group in that university where Maryam was harassed. That shit was caught on camera and they sided with the assholes? So tolerant. Much peaceful.

    I mean, it's really crazy in a way. The right wing hates Islam so much they have thrown literally every single possible accusations to Islam. Taqqiya, muslims are all violent terrorists, inbred, etc. In the middle of this, just like a broken clock sometimes they are right, not really by knowledge or experience because they have none, but just by the sheer amount of bs they have spew.

    It's still not right to just dismiss everything by saying it's racist / culturally insensitive / just blaming white men / America. White women themselves don't want to be chained down to outdated Christian laws, and they can openly criticize so why can't we? Even if America is gone and never existed the problems with Islamic discrimination would still exist. I guess a lot of these Islamic problems end up being used as a fuel for right-wings to be bigots, but really it still isn't right to just pretend it doesn't exist.

    BTW, the whole time (not just me) it seems that most people take it that you are accusing Nawaz all these things.

    I don't really follow any of these famous dudes, sometimes I read some articles and so far, Nawaz is one of the most aware one when it comes to Islamic problems. He correctly pointed out several times that Islamic problems can't be reformed by doing what Sam Harris was doing, etc. Also he convinced (Tom Robinson was it?) to quit his party.

    BTW did anybody read his book with Harris? Is there some disturbing stuff in that book?

    Quote
    Maajid is also not responsible for his audience. The anti-Muslim bigots label Nawaz a taquiya (however it's spelled) peddler and think he's part of conspiracy to undermine western society from the inside.


    So the anti Muslim bigot are to be blamed for Maajid gaining the wrong audience instead of Muslims. Poor Maajid


    I mean, like really do you think the current leftist (people that you would approve) would support Majid? IF anything, it seems that the left does NOT want to critisize Islam, at all. They hate any kind of criticism against Islam. Anything that implies that Islam was one of the main source of extremism... NOPE NEVER NADA.

    But really, who should be the audience? The west is really, really ignorant on this and they are too polarized. Maajid is comfortably in the center of it. He makes both the left and the right uncomfortable. Have you seen Maajid going around with the right wing?

    Do you think muslims would ever support Maajid? Because muslims in my country, western muslims, online muslims, they never really admit to anything. Nope Islam never caused anything bad. Islam has never caused terrorism, Islam has always been the truth, etc. Why would muslims support someone who openly say Islam has direct link to extremism?

    And leftists only want to support muslims. If muslims say Islam is peaceful, then it must be.

    Is it just how it is then? If you say the truth that Islam can be a dangerous ideology, leftists would just hate you for being racist, muslims also hate you, then only right-wings would somehow want to be with you (but they also hate you for not being white).... or the people who actually agree with him?

    Honestly? You are asking too much from the western audiences. The west doesn't know much about Islam to actually criticize it, that's why they're missing the point or going overboard.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #93 - February 16, 2016, 07:26 PM

    I have been called racist for stating facts that muslim government is divisive + discriminative


    Which Muslim government if I may ask

    Quote
    I stated facts that actually is true in my country and in many Islamic countries, yet they dismiss everything as ~cultural uwu~ because, well if Iraq was invaded then that's the only reason why Islamic extremism exist,


    I don't know what kind of leftists you are talking about but I do know Iraq War did fuel the conditions that breed Islamic extremism there


    Quote
    It's still not right to just dismiss everything by saying it's racist / culturally insensitive / just blaming white men / America. White women themselves don't want to be chained down to outdated Christian laws, and they can openly criticize so why can't we? Even if America is gone and never existed the problems with Islamic discrimination would still exist.


    A big what if which remains a speculation at best.


    Quote
    BTW, the whole time (not just me) it seems that most people take it that you are accusing Nawaz all these things.


    I'm glad you figured that out.

    Quote
    I don't really follow any of these famous dudes, sometimes I read some articles and so far, Nawaz is one of the most aware one when it comes to Islamic problems. He correctly pointed out several times that Islamic problems can't be reformed by doing what Sam Harris was doing, etc. Also he convinced (Tom Robinson was it?) to quit his party.


    If that is the case then kudos to him(I'm serious)



    Quote
    I mean, like really do you think the current leftist (people that you would approve) would support Majid?


    Why not?

    Quote
    IF anything, it seems that the left does NOT want to critisize Islam, at all. They hate any kind of criticism against Islam. Anything that implies that Islam was one of the main source of extremism... NOPE NEVER NADA.


    Maybe that's because we don't have the likes of Bertrand Russell












    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #94 - February 16, 2016, 07:49 PM

    That has always been his stance consistently while dismissing and downplaying the role of the West that fuel the conditions that give rise to the insurgent group and anyone that begs to differ with him, he calls them "regressive leftist" or "Pro Islamist leftist.

    Cato I have seen his interview with The Young Turks and he is clearly saying that Islam was not solely responsible for the rise of Islamism. He says it is the main factor, but not solely responsible for this. Now, I don't know if said this sometime in the past, because I don't know everything the man says/said, but if he said, he is stupid, no doubt about this.

    I find it myopic to blame Islam as the main contributor of the mess in the Middle East. I would rather say Islamism is a symptom of the problem.we didn't have the likes of Al-qaeda before until 80s when US supported mujahiddeens in Afghanistan hence the emergence of Taliban and then Al-Qaeda which emerge as a reactionary insurgents due to US intervention in Middle East. Hamas too emerged in the late 80s as a result of Israel oppression against Palestine.

    Shia-Sunni split became worse after US topple Saddam and impose Maliki(Shia) who uses his power to marginalize Sunnis.

    As for KSA, we all know it was a created as nation state with the help of the British empire to undermine Ottoman Empire's control of ME, we all know how US became an important ally  of Saudi and how they(KSA) got petrodollars to spread their cancerous divisive ideology that supports literalism to the core known as Wahhabism around the Muslim World.

    Considering all that I don't see how "Islam" is the main contributor to the mess in ME and I don't see why Chomsky need to do that just to appease secular liberals. If we look at the history Islamism was a reactionary force against the dominance of the British Empire and West that imposed Kings and later on. Secular dictators on them. Not to mention how Iran wanted to practice secular democracy until CIA funded the coup that overthrew Mossadegh and impose a monarch hence the Islamic revolution.

    So yes a lot of blame has to go to Western imperialism than just Islamism.


    Well let's start with Wahhabism and KSA. First, Wahhabism was there before British and before USA. It's an Islamic product, we all know this, it is as old as Islam itself. As you said, they apply Islam with brutal literalism, so if Wahhabism is so bad it is Islam's fault. It is in its scripture. And why is this approach wrong?

    The Saudi have beaten the Rashidis without the help of the British before and only Ottomans saved them. It is not like without the help of British they wouldn't have beat the Rashidis again and the support of British was in arms and in money, not in men.  The British just happened to ally with all Ottomans foes(Saudi being only one of them), but they didn't provide men. You can hardly blame British for this, for Brits they were some bedouins who happened to be Ottomans foes, they had no idea what Wahhabism is. The most important thing that helped Saudis to gain control of the all today Kingdom was the wahhabis, their support and alliance was crucial. You cannot deny this.

    It is not USA fault, that there's a lot of oil there. If USA wouldn't have allied with them it would have mattered? Not to much, if any, it is the fact that they have oil, that helped them maintain in power, have their own army, have the money to spread their poison and to buy weapons. If not USA, Russia or any other power would have gladly fill the vacuum, I think we can agree with this. It is disingenuous to blame the West for Saudi having money and will to spread their Wahhabism and that they are in power. Oil is a necessary resource and unfortunately it happens to be there.

    About Iran, yes  USA is clearly guilty for Iran not becoming a democracy back then(Shah was secular as well), but you cannot blame them for supporting extremists to get in power there, although it is true that maybe without this, Iran could have been a democracy now. Could have been...  Because you can never know with Islam,  as Islam and democracy doesn't fit to well together, and in the end the most powerful ideology wins and Islam is eating democracy at breakfast...

    Shia-Sunni split would have become worse as well if Arab spring would have removed Saddam Hussein. Idiot Bush was just a trigger as Arab Spring was for Libya, Egypt, Syria, Bahrain . In the end whatever thing would have removed Saddam Hussein the same shit would have come from that place. You surely wouldn't expect a Sunni to peacefully get prime minister in a Shia majority country. The place was already sectarian when the secular dictator was there. It is bad when they are installed there, it is bad when they are removed as well. In hindsight it appears secular dictators are not a bad idea for that part of the world.

    Mujahideens, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Muslims Brotherhood, all of them are Islam products. Without Islam you don't have any of these.

    Colonialism/Imperialism/USA waging war in the Islamic word. Islam loves to play the victim card, to find excuses, everything but blame itself for all the mess in majority muslim countries and and for the misery of muslims everywhere in the world. We have Ottoman empire colonialism over Balkans, you don't see Bulgarians, Greeks lay guilt at them, you have British, French colonialism in India and non muslim Indochina, no crying there, you had NATO in Serbia but you don't see terrorist attacks from the Serbs, Armenians and Germans expelled from their lands, even genocide and they don't have terrorists.

    Every bad thing that has happened to Islam, has happened in other parts of the World as well Cato, but in Islam it is blown out of proportion. Mainly to excuse Islam. I mean you really have to wonder if you are not very ignorant or very naive, or both together to think that this is just an accident.

    Getting back to Mr. Chomsky, is there anywhere something, where he says that Islam has a contribution in all this mess, even a minimal one. Because if he wants to be be considered an honest broker in this debate, that he likes to be part of, he just has to put Islam there as well.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #95 - February 16, 2016, 08:43 PM

    Helaine,

    Given the Indonesian colonialism/imperialism and all the massacres in East Timor, Christians should send some terrorists to kill innocent Indonesian civilians.

    And in doing so it's mainly your fault, it's because of your policies, it's because of what you did in East Timor!!!!
     
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #96 - February 16, 2016, 09:16 PM

    Cato

    You're deluding yourself - the Free Officers overthrew the bleeding Egyptian monarchy, that the British had supported, in 1952. The Ikhwan ended up - after being offered a role in the new Egyptian state, Nasser personally offered the Ministry of Education to Qutb - in conflict with that state to the extent that it got caught up in a cycle of violence that has never really been resolved. The genesis of the  Brotherhood was as much a reaction to the Kemalist abolition of the caliphate as anything else - something of a far more internal matter than you're accepting. 

    From the Muqaddimah of Ibn Khaldun - a 14th century work that can have no possible connection with European imperialism:

    "It has been accepted by all Muslims  in every epoch, that at the end of time a man from the family of the prophet will without fail make his appearance, one who will strengthen Islam and make justice triumph. Muslims will follow him and he will gain domination over the Muslim realm. He will be called the Mahdi....

    Such statements have been found in the traditions that religious leaders have published...

    The common people, the stupid mass who make claims with respect to the Mahdi and who are not guided in this connection by any intelligence or helped by any knowledge, assume that the Mahdi may appear in a variety of circumstances and places. They do not understand the real meaning of the matter. They mostly assume that the appearance will take place in some remote province out of the reach of the ruling dynasties and outside their authority...Many weak-minded people go to those places in order to support a deceptive cause that the human soul in its delusion and stupidity leads them to believe capable of succeeding. Many of them have been killed..."

    Does the above cite ring any bells or strike any chords?



  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #97 - February 16, 2016, 09:23 PM

    Quote from: Helaine
    It's still not right to just dismiss everything by saying it's racist / culturally insensitive / just blaming white men / America. White women themselves don't want to be chained down to outdated Christian laws, and they can openly criticize so why can't we? Even if America is gone and never existed the problems with Islamic discrimination would still exist.

    A big what if which remains a speculation at best.


    O common, you know damn well that she is right.

  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #98 - February 16, 2016, 09:39 PM

    Cato

    The relevance of my little para regarding the fact that the US did not impose Maliki on Iraq - their candidate was Allawi, he lost three elections -  is that you obviously can't even get the basics of recent history correct, let alone give an accurate account of the rise of the Saudi state in either the 18th or 20th centuries; and regardless of what one's view of the US intervention in Iraq and its deposition of the Baath party as the ruling class is, the US quite clearly couldn't impose itself politically in the aftermath, and the invasion of Iraq is a classic example of imperial failure.  Perhaps you should consider the alternative and wonder what might have eventuated in the case of imperial success.......

  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #99 - February 16, 2016, 09:55 PM

    Wow, look at how all the members that ganged up on me are white liberal atheists which proves my point and they never fail to dosappoint. I give up, you guys can declare yourself a winner. I'm happy to concede.

    Nbhb,you are a genius. I didn't realise how genius you are until I read your last post.


    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #100 - February 16, 2016, 09:59 PM

    Cato

    Algeria?  I'm referring to the civil war of the 1990's - which pitted Islamists who arguably had a legitimate grievance against the anti-imperialist political leadership that had led the struggle for  independence against the French. Not exactly the narrative that you're reaching for.

    The Egyptian Ikhwan / proto-al Qaeda offshoot ( Gamaa al Islamiya )- in conflict with both the anti-imperialist Nasser, whom they failed to murder in the 1950's, and in conflict with the pro-Western Saddat, who they succeeded in murdering in 1981, and with the pro-Western Mubarak who they failed to murder during a state visit to Ethiopia in the 1990's.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #101 - February 17, 2016, 01:57 AM

    Which Muslim government if I may ask


    Better question would be, which muslim government don't? But hey, Indonesian government (the muslim part of it), and the caliphate bs that muslims like so much.

    Quote
    I don't know what kind of leftists you are talking about but I do know Iraq War did fuel the conditions that breed Islamic extremism there


    Islamic extremism already happened in Indonesia even before Iraq War. Way, way before that. Even without extremism, muslims already discriminate against nonmuslims since the conception of the country itself. And since way before even that.


    Quote
    A big what if which remains a speculation at best.


    Speculation? Islamic discrimination is ~SPECULATION~? Dude, it's the reality that every nonmuslims have to live everyday. Honestly, this is the point why I hate dealing with western muslims as well. Why not just blame the west for everything? Whoops the Malaysian government decided that they should be Islamic Republic, passed along some very divisive laws and completely foolish bullshit. Including stupid divorce laws, politics etc that only benefit muslims. Obviously, all the fault of the west. DAE the muslim government everywhere consist of 100% white people and not 100% muslims? White people at fault!

    Muslims forbidding Christians on building churches... The fault of the west everyone. Muslims say Christians can't be politician because nonmuslims can't lead muslims...

    Also, seriously why do people think that it's the natural course of action to turn violent extremism? Or is it only common for muslims to generalize it? I said it before, muslim government is very divisive and very honest that nonmuslims can't really ever get a control of anything. Meanwhile, the same muslims government also accuse the west of stealing resources, etc while they're doing the same shit themselves. There are Christian area here that the government suck resources out of, or get paid doing it, but they don't do jackshit to the local population. No giving back whatsoever. They still live in freaking jungle huts even until now. The west at fault everyone. Look at the west, so much stealing resources. Muslims never stole anything!

    "Iraq war breeds extremism" If extremism is a justifiable response to violent oppression, then muslims themselves should get 10000x what they have done to nonmuslims. And yet, if the victims are nonmuslim, it usually becomes local problem that infects the province, and that's it. It does not grow into international terrorist organization, infecting so many countries ~just because~. The Indonesian goverment have oppressed Hindu, pagans, and Christians living here. Should they create a terrorist organization now? Why don't they make the whole world suffer? If Christians keep on creating international armed militia because there are some Christians who are oppressed/murdered somewhere, do you think it's fine to do that?

    Quote
    Maybe that's because we don't have the likes of Bertrand Russell


    Yes because that's the representative of western population. Look at yourself, do you even know what it's like to live under muslim government? Because you just dismissed Islamic discrimination as ~the west' fault~ Just like the rethoric that many Dawahgandists here like to say.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #102 - February 17, 2016, 02:24 AM

    Wow, look at how all the members that ganged up on me are white liberal atheists which proves my point and they never fail to dosappoint. I give up, you guys can declare yourself a winner. I'm happy to concede.

    Nbhb,you are a genius. I didn't realise how genius you are until I read your last post.




    Erm, not a good idea to do exactly what you accuse Nawaz of doing.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #103 - February 17, 2016, 03:10 AM

    I hope he can accomplish more. I think that his ideas are fundamentally sound, and the movements he's lead most definitely have merit.

    But lacking credibility among Muslims is going to be a major thorn in his side for what he wishes to accomplish, and I think the whole strip club incident doesn't really help him in that regard. Which is why I'm glad I don't take on these sorts of public roles, where one is expected to maintain a higher moral standard.  Tongue

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #104 - February 17, 2016, 03:23 AM

    Wow, look at how all the members that ganged up on me are white liberal atheists which proves my point and they never fail to dosappoint.


    Come on, you can do way better than this Cato.

    I tend to agree with you about Maajid Nawaz having the perceived lack of legitimacy from Muslims which is going to hurt the impact he can make, but isn't that also symptomatic of a problem?

    But even saying that, you have to admit that he does some impressive things. For example taking very controversial positions among Muslims, ie for gay rights, and insisting that it is what he says as a Muslim, not in spite of being Muslim. It takes a bit of courage to do something like that with the regressive climate in Muslim communities and at the very least we can acknowledge that good, no?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #105 - February 17, 2016, 04:13 AM

    white



    Please don't put skin color into a places where it doesn't belong.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #106 - February 17, 2016, 06:14 AM

    For someone who accuses me of name calling and  being abusive, I do say beyond irony Cheesy


    Are you done with the fancy showboating adjectives? Cool,let's proceed.



    It's not name calling to show that your arguments are unabashedly hypocritical. But you knew that. By all means, do whatever you can to save face.

    Yeah real fancy language I'm using there. I'm guessing fancy means having a vocabulary that encompasses more than junior high insults like "dick-riders".

    The rest is simply grasping at straws. Boring.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #107 - February 17, 2016, 07:01 AM

    Come on, you can do way better than this Cato.



    Not when the likes of Josephus and nbhb are twisting their their stories to fit their narratives and being blatantly dishonest.  I can't argue with this types

    Please don't put skin color into a places where it doesn't belong.

     

    But that's the truth.


    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #108 - February 17, 2016, 07:15 AM

    It's not name calling to show that your arguments are unabashedly hypocritical. But you knew that. By all means, do whatever you can to save face.

    Yeah real fancy language I'm using there. I'm guessing fancy means having a vocabulary that encompasses more than junior high insults like "dick-riders".

    The rest is simply grasping at straws. Boring.



    Lol, I love how people like you get easily riled up and defensive when someone you idolises get criticised. Also thanks for proving to me that you are just a waste of time seeing how naive and silly your "counterpoints" are, which  you can't defend

    You are not that rational and smart like you like to believe, just another bitch ass joke.We have seen phoney types like you coming here and leaving,and you ain't different. Now move bitch

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #109 - February 17, 2016, 07:21 AM

    Cato, stop being so rude to everybody.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #110 - February 17, 2016, 07:53 AM

    But Maaa, he started it.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #111 - February 17, 2016, 08:04 AM

    Lol, I love how people like you get easily riled up and defensive when someone you idolises get criticised. Also thanks for proving to me that you are just a waste of time seeing how naive and silly your "counterpoints" are, which  you can't defend

    You are not that rational and smart like you like to believe, just another bitch ass joke.We have seen phoney types like you coming here and leaving,and you ain't different. Now move bitch


     Cheesy ouch looks like I hit a nerve. Have a good life dude

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #112 - February 17, 2016, 08:10 AM

     Roll Eyes

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #113 - February 17, 2016, 08:31 AM

    Maajid is also not responsible for his audience. The anti-Muslim bigots label Nawaz a taquiya (however it's spelled) peddler and think he's part of conspiracy to undermine western society from the inside. They are idiots and hate Nawaz. Nawaz plays to the audience that wants to actually have a nuanced discussion without turning to bigots on the right or not blindly towing the "Islam is peace" narrative on the left. I've seen Nawaz shoot down plenty of right wing bigots (like Donald Trump).


    He is responsible when he does not stand up to those with disgusting views who try to dress their bigotry up as legitimate criticism. Sure Nawaz is good at standing up to Muslim extremists but when it comes to those right-wingers/faux liberals who appear to have labelled him as an acceptable Muslim he is spineless. Donald Trump is another level of ridiculous and most political public figures have criticised him so that shouldn't take much courage on Nawaz's part. Why would the Muslm community want anything to do with someone who associates with people who clearly have nothing but contempt for them?
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #114 - February 17, 2016, 08:35 AM

    I understand. However, I think unfairly castigating a key ally in the fight for a world with less religious sectarianism and violence is not a good idea. If we are only to express support for those that are in the precise sweet spot of where we would like their views, we'll spend all our time disagreeing and quickly become irrelevant. The way I see it, if Nawaz isnt seen as an ally, we've narrowed down our pool of allies to essentially nil against a tide of bigotry and complete accomadationism on the other side.


    An ally is someone who can actually have an effect on the Muslim community. Nawaz will never make a difference with his tactics because they do not reach out to youths vulnerable to radicalisation. If anything the likes of him probably just alienate them further.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #115 - February 17, 2016, 10:00 AM

    People like justpersuing are the reason why everything is wrong with Atheist movement, he is a typical example of New atheist. They come here with their pseudo intellectual crap and being super condescending yet  when you call out their bullshit, they go on whining and bitching about how you don't want a proper discussion or argument blah blah blah without realising how bizzarely biased,one dimensional minded and naive they come across.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #116 - February 17, 2016, 11:16 AM

    good...good.. I read enough here so let me read these two..

    Sam Harris at salon.com

    Sam Harris on WHAT HE SAID ON salon.com at samharris.org



    Quote
    In  this conversation, Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz achieve what so many who take part in the debate on Islam and the West fail to accomplish: a civil but honest dialogue. The result is as illuminating as it is fascinating. Courteous and at times even chivalrous, the two men address every thorny issue on Islam, issues that lead so many others into wild shouting matches, personal attacks, and accusations of Islamophobia. In this gem of a book the authors lay it all out and set the rest of us a great example: that an incisive debate on Islam between a believer and a non-believer is attainable. Given the importance and the urgency of the topic, we must all read it and follow in their footsteps.
    — Ayaan Hirsi Ali, author of Infidel, Nomad, and Heretic


    Quote
    Free thought and rational inquiry once characterized the relative liberalism and humanism of ancient Muslim societies and civilizations: the leading Sunni Imam, Abu Hanifa, would debate atheists inside the great mosques of Iraq; the Abbasid caliphs hosted debates amongst the leaders of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam at their courts in Baghdad; the Mughal emperors engaged in debate with Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists. Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz should be commended for conducting a frank and wide-ranging conversation about a number of key issues around religion, reform, and Islam in the modern world. Nawaz’s approach is based upon detailed familiarity with extremist worldviews, and with the history and tradition of reform theology and renewal within Islam that desperately needs to be amplified. I hope that this debate will be a fruitful endeavor, and illustrate that, in our increasingly-polarized world, it is possible and even normal for people with different viewpoints to have a civilized conversation and to learn from each other.

    — Sheikh Dr. Usama Hasan, Islamic scholar


    well that is how it goes..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #117 - February 17, 2016, 12:13 PM

    Sam Harris is far less intelligent than I thought if he really believes that oppression only leads to the formation of violent groups in the case of Muslims. Has he never heard of the Black Panthers, the IRA, the ANC, Haganah and many other similar groups (not saying those groups were the same as each other as some were justified)?
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #118 - February 17, 2016, 12:38 PM

    Sam Harris is far less intelligent than I thought if he really believes

    well  AGD.. gd.. dear god....

    Measure of intelligence has NO absolute value.. and it is very relative.,  A person who is very intelligent in one subject could be a stupid in another subject. A person who is intelligent in the subject and understands that he is acting stupid could also become less intelligent in the eyes of public...  

    it could be, it is just his/her  ego which doesn't allow him/her to loose an argument..

    Quote
     that oppression only leads to the formation of violent groups in the case of Muslims. Has he never heard of the Black Panthers, the IRA, the ANC, Haganah and many other similar groups (not saying those groups were the same as each other as some were justified)?

     Black Panthers, the IRA, the ANC, Haganah ..etc..etc...
     
    Quote
    Black Panthers:  The Black Panther Party or BPP (originally the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense) was a revolutionary black nationalist and socialist organization  active in the United States from 1966 until 1982, with its only international chapter operating in Algeria from 1969 until 1972....

    Dr. Huey Percy Newton (February 17, 1942 – August 22, 1989) was an African-American political activist and revolutionary who, along with Bobby Seale, co-founded the Black Panther Party in 1966. He continued to pursue an education, eventually earning a Ph.D. in social philosophy.  In 1989 he was shot and killed in Oakland, California.


    Quote
    IRA: Irish Republican Army: The Irish Republican Army (IRA) is any of several armed movements in Ireland in the 20th and 21st centuries dedicated to Irish republicanism, the belief that all of Ireland should be an independent republic. It was also characterised by the belief that political violence was necessary to achieve that goal.
    The first known use of the term "Irish Republican Army" occurred in the Fenian raids on Canada in the 1860s. The original Irish Republican Army formed by 1917 from those Irish Volunteers who refused to enlist in the British Army during World War I. It was the army of the Irish Republic, declared by Dáil Éireann in 1919. Some Irish people dispute the claims of more recently created organisations that insist that they are the only legitimate descendants of the original IRA, often referred to as the "Old IRA".
    The playwright and former IRA member Brendan Behan once said that the first issue on any IRA agenda was "the split". For the IRA, that has often been the case. The first split came after the Anglo-Irish Treaty in 1921, with supporters of the Treaty forming the nucleus of the National Army of the newly created Irish Free State, while the anti-treaty forces continued to use the name Irish Republican Army. After the end of the Irish Civil War, the IRA was around in one form or another for forty years, when it split into the Official IRA and the Provisional IRA in 1969. The latter then had its own breakaways, namely the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA, each claiming to be the true successor of the Army of the Irish Republic.


    Quote
    African National Congress : The ANC is a national liberation movement. It was formed in 1912 to unite the African people and spearhead the struggle for fundamental political, social and economic change. For ten decades the ANC has led the struggle against racism and oppression, organising mass resistance, mobilising the international community and taking up the armed struggle against apartheid. The ANC achieved a decisive democratic breakthrough in the 1994 elections, where it was given a firm mandate to negotiate a new democratic Constitution for South Africa. The new Constitution was adopted in 1996. The ANC was re-elected in 1999 to national and provincial government with an increased mandate. The policies of the ANC are determined by its membership and its leadership is accountable to the membership.


    Quote
    Haganah: Haganah (Hebrew: הַהֲגָנָה, lit. The Defence) was a Jewish paramilitary organization in the British Mandate of Palestine (1921-48), which became the core of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).  The evolution of Jewish defense organisations in Palestine and later Israel went went from small self-defense groups active during Ottoman rule, to ever larger and more sophisticated ones during the British Mandate, leading through the Haganah to the national army of Israel, the IDF. The evolution went step by step from Bar-Giora, to Hashomer, to Haganah, to IDF.

    The Jewish paramilitary organisations in the New Yishuv (the Zionist enterprise in Palestine) started with the Second Aliyah (1904 to 1914).[2] The first such organization was Bar-Giora, founded in September 1907. It consisted of a small group of Jewish immigrants who guarded settlements for an annual fee. At no time did Bar-Giora have more than 100 members.[citation needed] It was converted to Hashomer (Hebrew: השומר‎; "The Watchman")

     in April 1909, which operated until the British Mandate of Palestine came into being in 1920. Hashomer was an elitist organization with narrow scope, and was mainly created to protect against criminal gangs seeking to steal property. During World War I, the forerunners of the Haganah/IDF were the Zion Mule Corps and the Jewish Legion, both of which were part of the British Army.

     After the Arab riots against Jews in April 1920, the Yishuv's leadership saw the need to create a nationwide underground defense organization, and the Haganah was founded in June of the same year. The Haganah became a full-scale defense force after the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine with an organized structure, consisting of three main units—the Field Corps, Guard Corps, and the Palmach strike force.

    During World War II the successor to the Jewish Legion of World War I was the Jewish Brigade, which was joined by many Haganah fighters. During the 1947-48 civil war between the Arab and Jewish communities in what was still Mandatory Palestine, a reorganised Haganah managed to defend or wrestle most of the territory it was ordered to hold or capture. At the beginning of the ensuing 1948-49 full-scale conventional war against regular Arab armies, the Haganah was reorganised to become the core of the new Israel Defense Forces.


    what are they? what  are their religions and how  their religious ideologies  affecting their actions on their ground? And which Islamic group  are you trying to compare  with these four political organizations?

    Are they getting preached in their respective religious ceremonies in their mosques/temples/churches/ to be violent to those who question their political ideologies??

    Are they violent to their own people who question them?

    did they or do they  affect other nations and people  that are nothing to do with their political problems??

    well we need to go bit deeper to understand these systems..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #119 - February 17, 2016, 12:51 PM

    The IRA was predominantly Catholic while Haganah was Jewish but all of them were prepared to use violence and gained the support of several people as a reaction to oppression or perceived oppression. So as you can see this doesn't just happen to Muslims, though the situation in the Middle East (which will take pages to get into) and the many sects of Islam has caused the situation to spiral into what we see today with numerous different extremist groups.

    He is also a fool to call the US a "well-intentioned giant". Either he is a fool or he is simply trying to downplay US foreign policy. The invasion of Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with the welfare of the Iraqi people and everything to do with securing Western interests in Iraq. Saddam Hussein was well-loved with the Reagen administration referring to him as "our son of a bitch". Once it became clear he was unstable and out of control only then did he become the bad guy who had to be replaced. Moreover the involvement in the Middle East has nothing to do with the lack of free speech and women's rights because the worst culprit, Saudi Arabia, is one of the West's biggest allies in the region.
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