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 Topic: The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz

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  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #60 - February 15, 2016, 06:32 PM




    Lol. Too lame Tongue

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #61 - February 15, 2016, 09:02 PM

     
    Yes. Which makes Islam so powerful. And dangerous.

    I think Communism coupled with Islam is a very good idea. 

    hmm  you hate both..  and you like they kill each other..

    then  why West opposed Russia in Afghanistan and opposing now in Syria? they should support communist Russia., 

    “We disguised our political demands behind religion and multiculturalism, and deliberately labeled any objection to our demands as racism. Even worse, we did this to the very generation who had been socialist sympathizers in their youth, people sympathetic to charges of racism, who like Dave Gomer were now in middle-career management posts. It is no wonder then that the authorities were unprepared to deal with politicized religion as ideological agitation; they felt racist if they tried to stop us.”
    ― Maajid Nawaz, Radical: My Journey out of Islamist Extremism

    “Like so many nice people who seek power, I wanted to force everyone else to be nice. It's called totalitarianism.”
    ― Maajid Nawaz, Radical: My Journey out of Islamist Extremism

     Cheesy  that is a good one.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #62 - February 16, 2016, 01:36 AM

    I think Communism coupled with Islam is a very good idea. 


    There is nothing better than dangerous ideologies killing each other to the end of earth. Lel.

    The whole gist I'm getting from them is that if you oppose US militarism,you don't  support Israel foreign policy and you don't say no to refugees.  You are a "Regressive leftist" and "Pro Islamist" which I find it silly hence a waste of time to engage in so called "rational" argument with these dick riders here as it will only lead to circular argument as usual.


    Really? He is pro-US military? He supports Israel foreign policy, which one? And he is anti refugee... even though he's an immigrant himself?

    Dude, you're unhinged. Seriously I've seen a lot of these accusations being thrown around, with nothing to back them up. Fact is, regressive leftists (morons) exist. You have to say no to refugees at some point, etc. There are people who benefit from these wild accusations that only the west are bad, Islam is only good, Islam has done nothing wrong, etc. You know these people eat dawah lies like they eat shit.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #63 - February 16, 2016, 04:17 AM


    Really? He is pro-US military? He supports Israel foreign policy, which one? And he is anti refugee... even though he's an immigrant himself?




    *sigh* You seriously have a problem reading between the lines. I was referring to people that use the word "regressive leftists" Not Maajid Nawaz and I have seen people especially Sam Harris throwing that word at Chomsky after the correspondence between them. Next time learn to take a breath and relax then read my post before you twist my words again. This is the second time you are misreading my post.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #64 - February 16, 2016, 04:32 AM


    Dude, you're unhinged. Seriously I've seen a lot of these accusations being thrown around, with nothing to back them up. Fact is, regressive leftists (morons) exist. You have to say no to refugees at some point, etc. There are people who benefit from these wild accusations that only the west are bad, Islam is only good, Islam has done nothing wrong, etc. You know these people eat dawah lies like they eat shit.


    Please tell me who are these "Regressive Leftists"   that  overlooks Islamism or defend Islamists for the sake of cultural tolerance because I haven't met or read about any Leftists that does that. Somehow I'm starting to believe that this so called Regressive Leftists are imaginary folks and after Sam Harris called Noam Chomsky the R word, I realised that the word is used against people who don't believe that Islam has everything to do with the rise of ISIS and Alqaeda without sociopolitical factors and historical factor that plays an important role behind.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #65 - February 16, 2016, 04:46 AM

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: I've personally met a ton of people like this. Ones who wind up defending or excusing Islamists because of sympathy or trying to be tolerant, anyway.

    There's some who take it to a far extreme and they tend to be online (some pockets of Tumblr post-Charlie Hebdo were horrifying) and it's hard to have a discussion on the internet that's going to really change someone's mind, because we don't want to be wrong in front of the internet. But other than that, anyone I've ever met in person who was inadvertently condoning/excusing something not so great about some interpretations or practices of Islam were generally pretty considerate people, and that's great, because when I explained to them why, in my experience, the thing they were condoning/excusing was actually pretty bad, they understood immediately.

    A lot of people on the left are sympathetic and that's why you see this phenomenon in the first place. Luckily, that means that if you can explain your situation as an ex-Muslim and manage to do it without being an asshole, they're probably going to change their minds and be really supportive of you and have a more nuanced understanding of the situation. It's cool, everyone here should try it.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #66 - February 16, 2016, 04:47 AM

    Cato, they might all be in Connecticut.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #67 - February 16, 2016, 05:00 AM

    I must admit I was quite being an asshole on this thread but that's because I have my experience arguing with the likes of Just perusing and nbhb who engages in circular reasoning and being digressive hence my unwillingness to engage in argument or discussion(or whatever you call it) with them

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #68 - February 16, 2016, 05:12 AM

    Not trying to call anyone out in particular, I just mean that that's actually usually a deal breaker if you're trying to change anyone's mind, and a lot of people on the left are a million percent over the angry rhetoric true critics of Muslims bring to the table, so I sometimes wonder why certain people are surprised that their anger-fueled  criticism of the left for not appreciating ex Muslim issues and the like doesn't go anywhere. But it's really not because these leftists can't be reasoned with, they just don't often get approached by the right people in a reasonable way.

    Although I guess it is good advice in general, and I'm trying to follow it more, myself. Lord and the all-knowing internet knows that I can be an asshole, too. It's tough stuff to talk about.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #69 - February 16, 2016, 05:15 AM

    True. That I agree Smiley

    I will do my best

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #70 - February 16, 2016, 05:22 AM

    Deal. Now I really have to be nicer. I expect you to keep me in line, Cato!  yes
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #71 - February 16, 2016, 05:24 AM

    Grin

    You seem alright to me. Smiley

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #72 - February 16, 2016, 05:39 AM

     Smiley
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #73 - February 16, 2016, 07:04 AM

    I'd just like to point out that throughout all the name calling and guilt by association, going through this entire thread, I have not heard a single argument against Nawaz's actual positions (i.e. A call for secularism, the need for reform in Islam, and asserting the superiority of western values such as freedom of speech).

    It's important for me to seek out counterpoints to my own positions, but I've not gotten anything of substance.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #74 - February 16, 2016, 12:02 PM

    I'd just like to point out that throughout all the name calling and guilt by association, going through this entire thread


    Blah blah blah Oh hush, you are the one that started it with a shot by saying how I shut down an argument and call people bigot when its obvious you are trying to drag me into circular argument the other day but you were too blind to see that .if you want to have a proper discussion, don't start by taking a shot and expecting one to act nicely towards you because you are giving the impression that you were trying to provoke which I'm sure that was your intention but you were trying to play the cool guy.

    Quote
    I have not heard a single argument against Nawaz's actual positions (i.e. A call for secularism, the need for reform in Islam, and asserting the superiority of western values such as freedom of speech).


    Alright fine, let's start on a clean slate and  I'm going to make.myself as clear I can. My general argument is the validity of the term "Regressive leftist" and the supporters of Sam Harris and himself who uses that term against people who don't believe that Islamism is solely responsible for the rise of insurgent groups like ISIS,Al-Qaeda,Hamas and Boko Haram or any leftist who disagreed with him on related issues. I dont know any leftist public figure that excuses or defend Islamists, not even Noam Chomsky.

    Also my main problem with Nawaz is his association with the right wingers and that majority of his audience are mostly atheists and anti muslim bigots.  For someone who is calling for reform that doesn't make him credible in a muslim community and he doesn't to seem to care about it which is not good.

    Quote
    It's important for me to seek out counterpoints to my own positions, but I've not gotten anything of substance.


    Well, I have provided "substance" above, let me hear your "counterpoints". Not that we are playing a game of one upmanship because I don't do that.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #75 - February 16, 2016, 12:33 PM

    I'd just like to point out that throughout all the name calling and guilt by association, going through this entire thread, I have not heard a single argument against Nawaz's actual positions (i.e. A call for secularism, the need for reform in Islam, and asserting the superiority of western values such as freedom of speech).

    It's important for me to seek out counterpoints to my own positions, but I've not gotten anything of substance.


    This doesn't have to be about his positions/arguments. When it comes to public figures and their work, guilt by association absolutely applies. It's not like he was chilling and having a beer with these people on a Friday night (most people have friends who don't share their political views), he has collaborated with these people and that has an effect on his integrity.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #76 - February 16, 2016, 12:45 PM

    Exactly

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #77 - February 16, 2016, 12:52 PM

    Yeah, I don't know, I remember listening to Nawaz on the radio the year of my broken car CD player and really finding him charismatic and intelligent and I was definitely impressed. I don't know anything else about him so I can't pass  judgment in what's being discussed in the OP, but I try to remember that none of us are perfect and we should play the ball and not the man. But...

    But it's tricky, justperusing, there's vultures at the door, and we all need to be careful about who we endorse and who we collaborate with if we want to remain effective communicators and relevant, and I do think that, for whatever reason, Nawaz has been pidgeonholed for now. I wish him luck from what I know of him, but I think he's going to win more support from the wrong crowd than the hearts and minds of Muslims.

    You know, the same thing happens to us here with how far right nutjobs want to use ex Muslims as ammo. We have to always tread that fine line and be aware of what we say and how we're presenting ourselves, and that's kind of why I had my biggest asshole moment on here and threw down with therationalizer. It's one thing to be "right" (as in correct) and that's hard, but it's much harder to be right and relevant. Right and effective. If you're not careful you'll do more harm than good and I think aggressive atheists who flock around Nawaz and Harris are not relevant and not effective, to put it kindly.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #78 - February 16, 2016, 01:14 PM

    This doesn't have to be about his positions/arguments. When it comes to public figures and their work, guilt by association absolutely applies. It's not like he was chilling and having a beer with these people on a Friday night (most people have friends who don't share their political views), he has collaborated with these people and that has an effect on his integrity.

    If so, many people will be guilty for many things. As for example, which I already gave you, Maryam Namazie as a communist. You know Stalin was a communist as well and you know many people have died because of him.
    Sorry but it is much more complex than that, it is very important the type of association/collaboration that you have with some people. It isn't just black and white.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #79 - February 16, 2016, 01:22 PM

    There are different forms of Communism. Maryam Nawazie is not directly involved with Stalin or his Communism so that's a straw man argument.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #80 - February 16, 2016, 01:35 PM

    If so, many people will be guilty for many things. As for example, which I already gave you, Maryam Namazie as a communist. You know Stalin was a communist as well and you know many people have died because of him.
    Sorry but it is much more complex than that, it is very important the type of association/collaboration that you have with some people. It isn't just black and white.


    Lot of communists will disagree with you that Stalin was a communist and to be fair to them Lenin deviated away from the communist ideals that doesn't favour nation-state as a social contract for the proletariat after revolution when they overthrew Tsar. When Lenin died and Stalin took over, he completely deviated away from it and became a dictator which isn't what the communists wanted. Why else do you think Trotsky have a problem with Lenin?

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #81 - February 16, 2016, 02:15 PM

    ... the supporters of Sam Harris and himself who uses that term against people who don't believe that Islamism is solely responsible for the rise of insurgent groups like ISIS,Al-Qaeda,Hamas and Boko Haram or any leftist who disagreed with him on related issues.

    Does Sam Harris believe that Islamism is solely responsible for the rise of those insurgent groups?

    Alright fine, let's start on a clean slate and  I'm going to make.myself as clear I can. My general argument is the validity of the term "Regressive leftist".
    I dont know any leftist public figure that excuses or defend Islamists, not even Noam Chomsky.


    Well maybe Lua is right, they might all be in Connecticut. Not many public figures that we know there.

    But, let's see with this guy Noam Chomsky. Some very interesting YouTube videos:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS0L8mQFRAk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCedWxlG90M

    What I'm hearing from him is that The West(especially USA) and partly Israel are guilty for almost everything happening in the Middle East: Islamic terrorism, the Shia-Sunni split, KSA being what they are. Also USA is the biggest terrorist group, Saudi government doesn't fund their Wahhabi poison.

    But I'm interested also if he regards Islam as one the main contributor for the mess in Middle East, because I heard nothing of it.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #82 - February 16, 2016, 02:22 PM

    There are different forms of Communism. Maryam Nawazie is not directly involved with Stalin or his Communism so that's a straw man argument.


    It's not a straw man argument. There are different form of how you judge Islam or Muslims as well, even though there is an association there.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #83 - February 16, 2016, 02:37 PM

    Lot of communists will disagree with you that Stalin was a communist and to be fair to them Lenin deviated away from the communist ideals that doesn't favour nation-state as a social contract for the proletariat after revolution when they overthrew Tsar. When Lenin died and Stalin took over, he completely deviated away from it and became a dictator which isn't what the communists wanted. Why else do you think Trotsky have a problem with Lenin?

    Communist ideals... Yes I remember, fantastic great ideals, ideas... but utopian as well.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #84 - February 16, 2016, 02:48 PM

    hmm  you hate both..  and you like they kill each other..

    No hate, just dislike. Communism has some good parts and it can counter Islam mostly far right ideas.

    then  why West opposed Russia in Afghanistan and opposing now in Syria? they should support communist Russia., 


    Because when it comes to Middle East interference, West has done very badly. I'm not sure that even now they have learned the lesson. It appeared that they have learned something, but I can't bet they won't screw up again.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #85 - February 16, 2016, 03:05 PM

    Does Sam Harris believe that Islamism is solely responsible for the rise of those insurgent groups?


    That has always been his stance consistently while dismissing and downplaying the role of the West that fuel the conditions that give rise to the insurgent group and anyone that begs to differ with him, he calls them "regressive leftist" or "Pro Islamist leftist.

    Quote
    Well maybe Lua is right, they might all be in Connecticut. Not many public figures that we know there.

    But, let's see with this guy Noam Chomsky. Some very interesting YouTube videos:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS0L8mQFRAk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCedWxlG90M

    What I'm hearing from him is that The West(especially USA) and partly Israel are guilty for almost everything happening in the Middle East: Islamic terrorism, the Shia-Sunni split, KSA being what they are. Also USA is the biggest terrorist group, Saudi government doesn't fund their Wahhabi poison.

    But I'm interested also if he regards Islam as one the main contributor for the mess in Middle East, because I heard nothing of it.


    I find it myopic to blame Islam as the main contributor of the mess in the Middle East. I would rather say Islamism is a symptom of the problem.we didn't have the likes of Al-qaeda before until 80s when US supported mujahiddeens in Afghanistan hence the emergence of Taliban and then Al-Qaeda which emerge as a reactionary insurgents due to US intervention in Middle East. Hamas too emerged in the late 80s as a result of Israel oppression against Palestine.

    Shia-Sunni split became worse after US topple Saddam and impose Maliki(Shia) who uses his power to marginalize Sunnis.

    As for KSA, we all know it was a created as nation state with the help of the British empire to undermine Ottoman Empire's control of ME, we all know how US became an important ally of Saudi and how they(KSA) got petrodollars to spread their cancerous divisive ideology that supports literalism to the core known as Wahhabism around the Muslim World.

    Considering all that I don't see how "Islam" is the main contributor to the mess in ME and I don't see why Chomsky need to do that just to appease secular liberals. If we look at the history Islamism was a reactionary force against the dominance of the British Empire and West that imposed Kings and later on. Secular dictators on them. Not to mention how Iran wanted to practice secular democracy until CIA funded the coup that overthrew Mossadegh and impose a monarch hence the Islamic revolution.

    So yes a lot of blame has to go to Western imperialism than just Islamism.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #86 - February 16, 2016, 03:11 PM

    Communist ideals... Yes I remember, fantastic great ideals, ideas... but utopian as well.



    As an Anarchist I would agree with you as nation-state can lead to Classism and exploitation of masses neverthless Stalin wasn't a communist as you believe so but that will remain for another discussion. Let's not digress here.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #87 - February 16, 2016, 04:10 PM

    Cato

    You're really underestimating the existence of islamist movements with a propensity for political violence prior to the 1980's - the Egyptian Ikhwan, for example, wasn't exactly a bunch of hippie innocents back in the 1940's and 50's - and al Qaeda is as much an outgrowth of  Qutb's, and the wider Brotherhood movement's, ideological descent into political violence against Nasser and the Free Officers as anything else. Afghanistan ( along with Algeria and Egypt ) were the testing grounds for this back in the 1990's - they had precious little to do with the reality of the Afghan struggle against the Soviets in the 1980's

    Juhayman and his cronies who took over the Grand Mosque? Mahdists.

    The current Saudi state is the third such incarnation since the mid-18th century - it's genesis had nowt to do with British Imperialism, had a lot to do with the original alliance between the Al Saud's and Abdel Ibn Wahhab, and was an aggressive reactionary "imperialistic" movement against Ottoman control of the Hijaz in its own right, capitalising on the vacuum that temporarily opened up when Napoleon upended Egypt and, when they had a spare moment, indulging in the extremely sectarian sack and massacre of Karbala in 1805. The Ottoman empire was already dead and buried by the time the current Saudi state coalesced in the early thirties - the British actually supported the Sharrief of Mecca in the first instance, but he proved incompetent and unpopular, and got relegated to the kingship of Jordan.

    The US was desperate to impose Maliki on Iraq? You must be from an alternate dimension. They were desperate to impose Iyad Allawi, who, having failed against Ibrahim al Jaffari the first time round, failed again, with Maliki emerging as the face-saving compromise that was cooked up when it was obvious that Allawi  could never electorally succeed to the premiership.

    I'm not going to downplay the issue of foreign meddling in the region as part of the problem, but the Middle East was never tabula rasa, and has been the site of both internal and Islamic imperial conflict since the 7th century (  or more accurately, since forever ). What we're actually seeing is one of those periodic revivals of Mahdism - and these are always responses to the fact that things change, that power systems get reconfigured and that history moves on.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #88 - February 16, 2016, 04:45 PM

    Blah blah blah Oh hush, you are the one that started it with a shot by saying how I shut down an argument and call people bigot when its obvious you are trying to drag me into circular argument the other day but you were too blind to see that .if you want to have a proper discussion, don't start by taking a shot and expecting one to act nicely towards you because you are giving the impression that you were trying to provoke which I'm sure that was your intention but you were trying to play the cool guy.

    Alright fine, let's start on a clean slate and  I'm going to make.myself as clear I can. My general argument is the validity of the term "Regressive leftist" and the supporters of Sam Harris and himself who uses that term against people who don't believe that Islamism is solely responsible for the rise of insurgent groups like ISIS,Al-Qaeda,Hamas and Boko Haram or any leftist who disagreed with him on related issues. I dont know any leftist public figure that excuses or defend Islamists, not even Noam Chomsky.

    Also my main problem with Nawaz is his association with the right wingers and that majority of his audience are mostly atheists and anti muslim bigots.  For someone who is calling for reform that doesn't make him credible in a muslim community and he doesn't to seem to care about it which is not good.

    Well, I have provided "substance" above, let me hear your "counterpoints". Not that we are playing a game of one upmanship because I don't do that.


    The reason I took a shot at you at the beginning of this thread was because of the blatant hypocrisy of criticizing Maajid for calling names in leiu of actual argument (a completely untrue accusation) when I had just experienced a textbook use of that tactic from yourself in a previous thread. When dealing with intellectual and moral inconsistency like that, it's impossible not to point it out. Your arguments are the absolute low hanging fruit dripping with sweet juicy, unabashed hypocrisy that are just laying there to be effortlessly picked apart.

    While I'm reluctant to get back on the merry go round of nastiness, name calling, and sweeping unsubstantiated generalizations of character with you, I'll deal with your points.

    http://youtu.be/SYPvv0X0hwM

    As you can see in this video (especially at the 2:00 mark) Nawaz lays out three factors behind radicalization:

    1) Anger or percieved grievance against society
    2) Identity crisis
    3) Islamism

    Nawaz himself tells how the reason he was radicalized is because he considered himself a victim of systematic racism and was upset with the reaction to the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia. These factors primed him to accept Islamist ideology.

    If he is listing more than just the factor of Islamist ideology's role in radicalization, and his own story attests to the arguably more important roles of the the other two factors, to think that Nawaz calls anyone who does not see Islamism as the sole reason behind extremism a regressive leftist is to be willfully ignorant or just plain dishonest.

    Maajid is also not responsible for his audience. The anti-Muslim bigots label Nawaz a taquiya (however it's spelled) peddler and think he's part of conspiracy to undermine western society from the inside. They are idiots and hate Nawaz. Nawaz plays to the audience that wants to actually have a nuanced discussion without turning to bigots on the right or not blindly towing the "Islam is peace" narrative on the left. I've seen Nawaz shoot down plenty of right wing bigots (like Donald Trump).

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #89 - February 16, 2016, 05:03 PM

    Cato

    You're really underestimating the existence of islamist movements with a propensity for political violence prior to the 1980's - the Egyptian Ikhwan, for example, wasn't exactly a bunch of hippie innocents back in the 1940's and 50's - and al Qaeda is as much an outgrowth of  Qutb's, and the wider Brotherhood movement's, ideological descent into political violence against Nasser and the Free Officers as anything else


    The Islamist movement in Egypt is a reactionary force against Monarchy imposed by the Briitish empire and eventually against Secular dictatorship(not imposed by any external influences but a wrong apparatus to use in ruling over a nation . Religious movement has been used as form of defence against economic and social oppression, of course something that isn't to be condoned and a wrong way to solve problems as it only breeds more violence.


    Quote
    Afghanistan ( along with Algeria and Egypt ) were the testing grounds for this back in the 1990's - they had precious little to do with the reality of the Afghan struggle against the Soviets in the 1980's


    Afghanistan;  got mixed up in a cold war, an almost similar situation that Syria is finding itself now.

    Algeria; We all know about the French colonialism and the effects its having on France now like Charlie Hebdo attack.

    Egypt; Testing grounds for what? If I may ask.

    Quote
    ]Juhayman and his cronies who took over the Grand Mosque? Mahdists


    A rebellion against Saudi Monarchs.

    Mahdists? A rebellion against British empire, Sudan right? Yup, its well documented
    .

    Quote
    The current Saudi state is the third such incarnation since the mid-18th century - it's genesis had nowt to do with British Imperialism, had a lot to do with the original alliance between the Al Saud's and Abdel Ibn Wahhab, and was an aggressive reactionary "imperialistic" movement against Ottoman control of the Hijaz in its own right, capitalising on the vacuum that temporarily opened up when Napoleon upended Egypt and, when they had a spare moment,


    One question, Who gave Al Saud and Wahhab weapons to conquer all the tribes in Hijaz?


    [/quote]The Ottoman empire was already dead and buried by the time the current Saudi state coalesced in the early thirties - the British actually supported the Sharrief of Mecca in the first instance, but he proved incompetent and unpopular, and got relegated to the kingship of Jordan.[/quote]

    It may be dead but Sykes-Picot agreement was the real genesis of the mess that is currently going on.
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    The US was desperate to impose Maliki on Iraq? You must be from an alternate dimension.


    Whoa! Slow down homie. I didn't say they were desperate. I said they put Shia as the leader,I got that right only that I got the name wrong.

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    They were desperate to impose Iyad Allawi, who, having failed against Ibrahim al Jaffari the first time round, failed again, with Maliki emerging as the face-saving compromise that was cooked up when it was obvious that Allawi  could never electorally succeed to the premiership.

     
     How is this relevant?


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    I'm not going to downplay the issue of foreign meddling in the region as part of the problem, but the Middle East was never tabula rasa, and has been the site of both internal and Islamic imperial conflict since the 7th century (  or more accurately, since forever ).


    I never said Middle East was a tabula rasa but it still doesn't absolve West responsibility in invading the region. Western Imperialism should be condemned as we condemn Islamism as they are both proven to be an oppressive forces to humanity.

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    What we're actually seeing is one of those periodic revivals of Mahdism - and these are always responses to the fact that things change, that power systems get reconfigured and that history moves on.


    What are the features of Mahdism movement if I may ask?

    As for the bolded part, true. True but it still doesn't mean we should condone or downplay the destructive role that imperialism had on humanity and just focus on the symptoms such as Islamism.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
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