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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz

 (Read 29026 times)
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  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #120 - February 17, 2016, 01:31 PM

    well I talk and ask  something else god is drifting away //////far away..  
    The IRA was predominantly Catholic while Haganah was Jewish but all of them were prepared to use violence and gained the support of several people as a reaction to oppression or perceived oppression.  

    Well I gave the links and I put bit about them .. The question was ... you used the WORDS "Black Panthers, the IRA, the ANC, Haganah"   So what Islamic Groups/Political parties are comparable with those 4 past political organizations??   and I will remove you word "perceived" as they were real oppressions in 20th century..

    Quote
    So as you can see this doesn't just happen to Muslims, though the situation in the Middle East (which will take pages to get into) and the many sects of Islam has caused the situation to spiral into what we see today with numerous different extremist groups.

    Nothing to do with what we are discussing if we have so many SECTS OF ISLAM  whose problems is that??

    Quote
    He is also a fool to call the US a "well-intentioned giant". Either he is a fool or he is simply trying to downplay US foreign policy.

    1), The invasion of Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with the welfare of the Iraqi people and everything to do with securing Western interests in Iraq. Saddam Hussein was well-loved with the Reagen administration referring to him as "our son of a bitch".

    2). Once it became clear he was unstable and out of control only then did he become the bad guy who had to be replaced.

    3).Moreover the involvement(USA)  in the Middle East has nothing to do with the lack of free speech and women's rights because the worst culprit, Saudi Arabia, is one of the West's biggest allies in the region.

    See that  all those three points.,   he(Sam Harris) may be fool in the subject we are discussing

    ..But.. but you  just put your color  and used  broad brush on the problem without answering and with out any suggestions.,    And.. and  PAINTED ALL OF US OF A POLITICS  WITH ONE COLOR and  not answered a single point I raised...    

    I am sure you are from US OF A ..  so whom are you going to Vote ..lol..

    Anyways I will get back to your points .. limited life and limited time

    Published on Jan 28, 2016
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpSHDaMLsnY     

    For Regressive Left, all Roads End in Supporting Islamism, Bread and Roses TV ..Published on Feb 10, 2016
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T93OBLTh-LI

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #121 - February 17, 2016, 01:57 PM

    Did Sam Harris really say that muslims are the only ones who respond to oppression, or perceived oppression, with violence?  That sounds too stupid a thing for anyone to actually say.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #122 - February 17, 2016, 02:39 PM

    well I talk and ask  something else god is drifting away //////far away..  Well I gave the links and I put bit about them .. The question was ... you used the WORDS "Black Panthers, the IRA, the ANC, Haganah"   So what Islamic Groups/Political parties are comparable with those 4 past political organizations??   and I will remove you word "perceived" as they were real oppressions in 20th century..
    Nothing to do with what we are discussing if we have so many SECTS OF ISLAM  whose problems is that??
    See that  all those three points.,   he(Sam Harris) may be fool in the subject we are discussing

    ..But.. but you  just put your color  and used  broad brush on the problem without answering and with out any suggestions.,    And.. and  PAINTED ALL OF US OF A POLITICS  WITH ONE COLOR and  not answered a single point I raised...    

    I am sure you are from US OF A ..  so whom are you going to Vote ..lol..

    Anyways I will get back to your points .. limited life and limited time


    1) I did not say that the fact that there are so many Islamic sects was the problem of anyone but Muslims. I acknowledge that Islam is dangerous in the wrong hands and a contributing factor to the situation in the Middle East but unlike some of the people on this thread, I don't disregard or downplay other factors.

    2) I know that the oppression is real in many cases, the reason for the "or perceived oppression" part is for the situations when people feel that they are being victimised if they are not able to reach a certain political goal.

    3) Some (not all) of the Islamist organisations such as Hamas are comparable to some of the groups that I mentioned because they were formed as a reaction to oppression. Their use of violence gained them supporters who seem to believe that this is the only way to reach their political goals.

    4) I am not from the US of A but one cannot deny that the purpose of US foreign policy in the Middle East is to secure her interests. There is no such thing as a real humanitarian intervention.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #123 - February 17, 2016, 02:47 PM

    Did Sam Harris really say that muslims are the only ones who respond to oppression, or perceived oppression, with violence?  That sounds too stupid a thing for anyone to actually say.


    It was heavily implied in the Salon article. He made a good point about linking suicide bombing to religion but the good points he made were drowned by the bile he spouted about Western foreign policy. The guy is either totally clueless on the subject and when it comes to Middle Eastern affairs or is in denial.

    Love how people like him hold Maajid Nawaz up as their token Muslim to show that they are not bigots, despite past comments which prove otherwise.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #124 - February 17, 2016, 03:02 PM

    He seems to be talking about suicide bombers specifically rather than violence generally, to be fair.  Not that he's even accurate about that, (the Tamil Tigers weren't muslim, but very fond of suicide attacks), but its at least less ridiculous than what I thought he'd said.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #125 - February 17, 2016, 04:01 PM

    It was heavily implied in the Salon article. He made a good point about linking suicide bombing to religion but the good points he made were  drowned by the bile he spouted about Western foreign policy.

    dear gd .. you have to give the links when you say such things  

    Quote
    The guy is either totally clueless on the subject and when it comes to Middle Eastern affairs or is in denial.


    Quote
    Love how people like him hold Maajid Nawaz up as their token Muslim to show that they are not bigots, despite past comments which prove otherwise.

    that is irrelevant.... by your posts at CEMB, other people may  say same thing about you If you were a Muslim.., such as  you are token Muslim.. and    People who write  around you are bigots ..

    That is not the way to discuss the subject to educate the readers about the faults of people like Sam Harris.  Hand waving  statements without links and proofs are not useful.,   It is like Many Non-Muslims critics saying "Prophet of Islam was Criminal" without knowing real history behind who he was and what he said..

       So what do you say about what he write here..   http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/response-to-controversy  

    Please read that 5 page article carefully and criticize it in a constructive way... point to point..
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #126 - February 17, 2016, 04:32 PM

    He seems to be talking about suicide bombers specifically rather than violence generally, to be fair.  Not that he's even accurate about that, (the Tamil Tigers weren't muslim, but very fond of suicide attacks), but its at least less ridiculous than what I thought he'd said.


    Yes but I think Tamil Tigers suicide attacks were honour inspired, somehow like Japanese Samurais, where in the case of Muslims they are religion inspired.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #127 - February 17, 2016, 04:35 PM

     AGirlWithDoubts  responds to  yeez post...
    Quote
    1) I did not say that the fact that there are so many Islamic sects was the problem of anyone but Muslims. I acknowledge that Islam is dangerous in the wrong hands and a contributing factor to the situation in the Middle East but unlike some of the people on this thread, I don't disregard or downplay other factors.

    2) I know that the oppression is real in many cases, the reason for the "or perceived oppression" part is for the situations when people feel that they are being victimised if they are not able to reach a certain political goal.

    3) Some (not all) of the Islamist organisations such as Hamas are comparable to some of the groups that I mentioned because they were formed as a reaction to oppression. Their use of violence gained them supporters who seem to believe that this is the only way to reach their political goals.

    4) I am not from the US of A but one cannot deny that the purpose of US foreign policy in the Middle East is to secure her interests. There is no such thing as a real humanitarian intervention.

    those are good points .. and I agree with those highlighted words.. rest we can discuss

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #128 - February 17, 2016, 04:38 PM

    @ nbhb - I don't really see how that helps Sam Harris, he claimed muslims were the only group carrying out suicide attacks in response to oppression.  His claim was inaccurate, that tactic is not limited to muslims at all.  

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #129 - February 17, 2016, 04:41 PM

    @ nbhb - I don't really see how that helps Sam Harris, he claimed muslims were the only group carrying out suicide attacks in response to oppression.  His claim was inaccurate, that tactic is not limited to muslims at all.  


    hello Cheetah could you please put a link on that FROM HIS BLOGS/ARTICLES OR TALKS..(not from others)  and please read

     http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/response-to-controversy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #130 - February 17, 2016, 04:42 PM

    Its in the salon article already linked to, Yeez.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #131 - February 17, 2016, 04:45 PM

    @ nbhb - I don't really see how that helps Sam Harris, he claimed muslims were the only group carrying out suicide attacks in response to oppression.  His claim was inaccurate, that tactic is not limited to muslims at all.  


    If he said that, then he is plain wrong.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #132 - February 17, 2016, 04:52 PM

    Its in the salon article already linked to, Yeez.

       which one ? Did Sam Harris write in to Salon?? well let me put all the links on Sam Harris from Salon

    Quote


    well there are more at Salon,   but all of them are written by others NOT by Sam Harris..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #133 - February 17, 2016, 04:53 PM

    I'm not looking through all those links.  It was an interview with Sam Harris in Salon magazine which was linked to on the previous page of this thread.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #134 - February 17, 2016, 04:56 PM

    I'm not looking through all those links.  It was an interview with Sam Harris in Salon magazine which was linked to on the previous page of this thread.

    oh ok..then that is from here   and these two links..

    good...good.. I read enough here so let me read these two..

    Sam Harris at salon.com

    Sam Harris on WHAT HE SAID ON salon.com at samharris.org


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #135 - February 17, 2016, 05:19 PM

    He is responsible when he does not stand up to those with disgusting views who try to dress their bigotry up as legitimate criticism. Sure Nawaz is good at standing up to Muslim extremists but when it comes to those right-wingers/faux liberals who appear to have labelled him as an acceptable Muslim he is spineless. Donald Trump is another level of ridiculous and most political public figures have criticised him so that shouldn't take much courage on Nawaz's part. Why would the Muslm community want anything to do with someone who associates with people who clearly have nothing but contempt for them?


    You may have a point there. I'm not too knowledgable about British politics or public figures with truly bigoted views.

    However, I think it's important to keep in mind that the Quilliam foundations expressed goal is countering extremism in Islamic communities. In light of that, it seems entirely reasonable that Nawaz spends most his time criticizing radical people and ideas in the Muslim community. It literally is what he specializes in. As for those who are anti-Muslim bigots, there is a cottage industry already made of attacking them. Many of them deserve the criticism, but it happens to be one of the easiest ways to score points with liberals and those willing to step up to the task are never in short supply.

    Basically, his job is to understand and inform people of what leads into this radicalization process. And that alone will positively effect disenfranchised Muslims because people are afraid of the unknown. For people to understand the human appeal of extremism they will stop treating Muslims as scary "others". I think those who collaborate with Nawaz come to soften their views as a result as he cuts through any suspicion that Muslims are fundamentally different than anyone else.

    And that's why I think Maajid is doing good things and is not irrelevant.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #136 - February 17, 2016, 05:23 PM

    I am starting to agree with you about Sam Harris. He's started to really go off the rails w.r.t. foreign policy. He's getting really reactionary against the likes of Noam Chomsky and has ended up dangerously far right as a result.

    Very skeptical about the salon article though. From what I've seen of them, they rarely give honest representations of people's opinions that they are against.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #137 - February 17, 2016, 05:27 PM

    But Sam Harris' own response to the Salon article basically repeats the charge that muslims have a monopoly on suicide attacks.  He doesn't say it that bluntly, but its heavily implied. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #138 - February 17, 2016, 05:28 PM

    1) I did not say that the fact that there are so many Islamic sects was the problem of anyone but Muslims. I acknowledge that Islam is dangerous in the wrong hands and a contributing factor to the situation in the Middle East but unlike some of the people on this thread, I don't disregard or downplay other factors.

    Wrong hands are everywhere not only some muslims have. What others don't have is Islam. Let's not blame "wrong hands". Downplaying, disregarding,etc,  Well, I argue you're doing this with Islam.

    2) I know that the oppression is real in many cases, the reason for the "or perceived oppression" part is for the situations when people feel that they are being victimised if they are not able to reach a certain political goal.

    Colonialism/Imperialism/USA waging war, oppression, bad things, etc.... As I explained in my long post the other page, every bad thing that has happened to Islam, has happened in other parts of the World as well. Where is the difference then, dear AGWD?

    3) Some (not all) of the Islamist organisations such as Hamas are comparable to some of the groups that I mentioned because they were formed as a reaction to oppression. Their use of violence gained them supporters who seem to believe that this is the only way to reach their political goals.

    Comparing apples with oranges as Yeeze rightly put it. Those groups where not religion inspired. Please read Hamas charter.

    4) I am not from the US of A but one cannot deny that the purpose of US foreign policy in the Middle East is to secure her interests. There is no such thing as a real humanitarian intervention.

    True, but is SH arguing otherwise?
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #139 - February 17, 2016, 05:42 PM

    But Sam Harris' own response to the Salon article basically repeats the charge that muslims have a monopoly on suicide attacks.  He doesn't say it that bluntly, but its heavily implied. 


    I can't find where it says that. It's a massive response.

    What other ideology besides Islamism says you can live forever in paradise if you blow yourself up with innocent civilians? Suicide attacks are not exclusive to Islam, but they are something of a unique problem when it comes to Islam due to doctrine

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #140 - February 17, 2016, 06:02 PM

    Suicide attacks are more common from Islamist groups than others, most likely due to the promise of martyrdom and goodies in Paradise.  That's what Sam Harris should have said, not waffle about how Tibetans don't blow themselves up.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #141 - February 17, 2016, 06:14 PM

    I agree  Smiley

    I don't know what Sam said though as I can't find the relevant quote

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #142 - February 17, 2016, 06:20 PM

    Its about two thirds of the way down the page.  Much of what Sam Harris says is valid comment, but given that there are already many out there keen to misrepresent him he doesn't really need to help them by making inaccuracies of his own.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #143 - February 17, 2016, 07:30 PM

    Suicide attacks are more common from Islamist groups than others, most likely due to the promise of martyrdom and goodies in Paradise.  That's what Sam Harris should have said,   not waffle about how Tibetans don't blow themselves up.

    hu!  waffles, pancakes and Tibetans? did he say that?  hmm i got to  read that..

    Its about two thirds of the way down the page.   Much of what Sam Harris says is valid comment, but given that there are already many out there keen to misrepresent him he doesn't really need to help them by making inaccuracies of his own.

    oh!  I see.,   it is a valid comment  and he adds inaccuracies of his own?..  Well I must read that and correct the guy,   even write to him....

    but why  and how  is that valid comment ??  anyways I got to read that after reading Quran..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #144 - February 17, 2016, 07:43 PM

    I didn't say THAT was valid comment Yeez.  I said much of Sam Harris's general commentary is valid.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #145 - February 17, 2016, 11:00 PM

    Wrong hands are everywhere not only some muslims have. What others don't have is Islam. Let's not blame "wrong hands". Downplaying, disregarding,etc,  Well, I argue you're doing this with Islam.
    Colonialism/Imperialism/USA waging war, oppression, bad things, etc.... As I explained in my long post the other page, every bad thing that has happened to Islam, has happened in other parts of the World as well. Where is the difference then, dear AGWD?
    Comparing apples with oranges as Yeeze rightly put it. Those groups where not religion inspired. Please read Hamas charter.
    True, but is SH arguing otherwise?



    1) Realistically Islam is not going anywhere and like a number of other religions it has teachings which can and have been used to inspire violence. The wrong hands has everything to do with it, there would be no point of reformers if that was not the case. It is the people who interpret the religion a certain way and act according to their interpretations who are spreading Islamism whereas there would be less of a problem if liberal Muslims had more influence.

    2) Bad things cannot "happen to Islam" since it is neither an individual nor a place, bad things can however happen to Muslims and Muslim-majority countries. That's not even the point I was making. Yeezevee emphasised that the oppression faced by the groups I named was real rather than perceived and I was agreeing.

    3) Regardless of whether it was religiously inspired or not, I was focusing on the reason for the formation of Hamas to begin with and it was very similar to those other groups (some of which were also religiously inspired or had religious undertones). So no, not exactly apples and oranges.

    4) Yes, in fact he was when he condoned the invasion of Iraq by suggesting that it was for the good of the Iraqi people and saying that the US had good intentions.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #146 - February 17, 2016, 11:03 PM

    You may have a point there. I'm not too knowledgable about British politics or public figures with truly bigoted views.

    However, I think it's important to keep in mind that the Quilliam foundations expressed goal is countering extremism in Islamic communities. In light of that, it seems entirely reasonable that Nawaz spends most his time criticizing radical people and ideas in the Muslim community. It literally is what he specializes in. As for those who are anti-Muslim bigots, there is a cottage industry already made of attacking them. Many of them deserve the criticism, but it happens to be one of the easiest ways to score points with liberals and those willing to step up to the task are never in short supply.

    Basically, his job is to understand and inform people of what leads into this radicalization process. And that alone will positively effect disenfranchised Muslims because people are afraid of the unknown. For people to understand the human appeal of extremism they will stop treating Muslims as scary "others". I think those who collaborate with Nawaz come to soften their views as a result as he cuts through any suspicion that Muslims are fundamentally different than anyone else.

    And that's why I think Maajid is doing good things and is not irrelevant.



    Fair enough that he spends most of his career criticising radical Muslims, I understand that this is one of Quilliam's focuses. It's not the lack of focus on other extremists that I have a problem with but rather the fact that he has actively collaborated with them without distancing himself from their extreme views.
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #147 - February 17, 2016, 11:05 PM

    dear gd .. you have to give the links when you say such things  
    that is irrelevant.... by your posts at CEMB, other people may  say same thing about you If you were a Muslim.., such as  you are token Muslim.. and    People who write  around you are bigots ..

    That is not the way to discuss the subject to educate the readers about the faults of people like Sam Harris.  Hand waving  statements without links and proofs are not useful.,   It is like Many Non-Muslims critics saying "Prophet of Islam was Criminal" without knowing real history behind who he was and what he said..

       So what do you say about what he write here..   http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/response-to-controversy  

    Please read that 5 page article carefully and criticize it in a constructive way... point to point..
     


    I will read it, probably tomorrow Smiley
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #148 - February 17, 2016, 11:11 PM

    dp
  • The Self-Invention of Maajid Nawaz
     Reply #149 - February 18, 2016, 05:36 AM

    4) Yes, in fact he was when he condoned the invasion of Iraq by suggesting that it was for the good of the Iraqi people and saying that the US had good intentions.


    That's just obnoxious. I had an argument on reddit about it, somebody was saying that US only had good intentions when invading others.

    But guuuuuuys what would've happened without our invasion??? You couldn't have done nothing without us invading you, got it!!!

    It's on another level of delusion.
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