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Theme Changer

 Topic: To Reform or not to Reform?

 (Read 3133 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     OP - October 30, 2015, 11:36 AM

    Just wanted to share a post from Agnostic Muslims & Friends - I hope you don't mind  grin12

    _____________________________

    During my journey of loss of faith I asked myself these question:

    1. Does Islam need to be reformed? Or is it that most Muslims just don't understand the "true" or "real" Islam.

    2. Is there any point in attempting reform? Why not just walk away - forget Islam and just be… me!

    3. Should I help those actively trying to rid the world of Islam - and all religious nonsense - so we humans can live free of such out-dated dogma, myths and fairy tale.

    4. Can Islam be reformed? Or is it impossible?

    _________

    1. As for the first question, I came to the conclusion that thinking that only I and a select number of liberal and progressive Muslims really understood "true" and "real" Islam was delusional and just my way of dealing with the doubts & cognitive dissonance I felt. That God would have sent mankind a message that appears to mean one thing to the majority but actually meant something quite different, obscure and well hidden from most people apart from myself and other "superior" beings, was of course simply absurd on so many levels.

    2. I decided in the end to take option two. Forget reform. Just walk away from Islam and just be me. Unfortunately that is easier said than done. Islam still played a large part in my life both in the real world amongst my family and loved ones - and in the virtual world where I couldn't stop debating and discussing Islam and raking over the embers of the past. I was also beset by a nihilistic vision of the world and became very depressed & suicidal.

    3. I did consider this early on, but decided that for the vast majority of Muslims - and religious people in general - their faith poses no danger to anyone and brings them a great deal of comfort and joy. Of course I still expressed my views and made videos critiquing the Qur'an, but not because I wanted nor believed that this would "destroy" Islam but simply that part of what gives my life meaning is expressing my views and in the market place of ideas all voices should be heard. I was neither interested in either preserving Islam nor destroying it. What will be will be & things take a natural course.

    4. This was a difficult question to answer. At first I thought no it can't be. Then later I came to the view that, actually it is being reformed as we speak - though most liberal and progressive groups have a really uphill struggle. But I applaud them and gave them my moral support. During this time I was also still struggling with questions of belief and meaning and nihilistic views. As I say after a period of deep depression I realised that I did have an inner belief in "something" - something I could not define. I have always deep down held a universalistic faith even at the height of my Islamic zeal as a young man. But I simply rationalised it in a way that made me able to deal with seemingly conflicting beliefs. I would tell myself that those things that seemed to contradict a universalistic view were because I as yet couldn't grasp the "proper" meaning of them. I knew now this was deluded but nevertheless I did have this universalistic belief that I had expressed through Islam - and I began to ask myself why can't I still do that - but just be more honest about Islam this time and open about the fact that the Qur'an is fallible. This is surely a no less difficult pill to swallow than the cognitive dissonance Muslims are increasingly having to deal with - plus it has the advantage of solving so many problems in a stroke.

    So yes I do believe Islam can be reformed. But why bother?

    Why bother? Only someone who does not care about the vast majority of decent, loving, kind, generous, honourable and wonderful human beings all over the world who identify as Muslims could say something like that imho. My family and loved ones are Muslim. My friends my community my extended family in Egypt, my son-in-laws family and so on… So many millions of Muslims all over the world. They won't be leaving Islam anytime soon I assure you. Nor their children or children's children. Can I as someone from this community just abandon them to the extremists. I know that's what the extremists want. But I refuse to let the extremists win. I will stay and do my best to offer a third option - that the Qur'an is fallible. It is not only a good idea - it is true. I think many Muslims know it but like the Emperor's New Clothe's they need someone to say it out loud.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/872095636170933/
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #1 - October 30, 2015, 12:18 PM

    Excellent as always.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #2 - October 30, 2015, 01:11 PM

    I'm not sure I back this idea of reform. Islam has constantly been reformed throughout the millennia, even wahhabism is one islamic reformation in a long line of them. Often when people say reform they're thinking of the path christianity took, from viewing scripture as the literal word of god to inspired by god. It wasn't the reformation that did this, it was the Enlightenment. Before the Enlightenment there was still extremism, literalism, slaughter in the name of Christ, murder of apostates, divine right to conquer, expand, discriminate, oppress and vilify.

    I don't really think islam needs a Martin Luther, nailing his writings to mosque doors or the bloodshed that followed. An equivalent of the Enlightenment seems the way forward.

    So, yeah, Reform or Enlightenment? Just throwing my thoughts out there. Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #3 - October 30, 2015, 09:34 PM

    Hassan that was great  Afro

    I really hope your movement can become mainstream  Afro
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #4 - October 31, 2015, 07:38 AM

    Thanks guys.

    You maybe right. But today's situation is very different from back then. I think Muslims are ready for change. In any case I feel I must try as the alternatives to reform are not good.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #5 - November 01, 2015, 06:33 AM

     Hassan  some times something useful... ........ Just Kidding ....  

    dear Hassan people are reading what you say and what you write. So let me rewrite few of your words from your post
     
    Quote


    ""Thanks guys.

    You maybe right. But today's situation is very different from back then.  We Muslims will change the Muslim robots, and brainless Muslim Preachers and  I think Muslims are ready for a change.  In any case as member of Muslim community  I feel I must try my best and I hope friends and well wishers will help me a bit because the alternatives to reforms are unimaginable......
    ""'    Hassan.  


    And what you are doing is extremely important

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #6 - November 01, 2015, 09:09 AM

    You maybe right. But today's situation is very different from back then. I think Muslims are ready for change. In any case I feel I must try as the alternatives to reform are not good.


    Enlightenment is a no-go then?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #7 - November 01, 2015, 12:44 PM

    I think enlightenment is happening and it will be part of the reform movement.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #8 - November 01, 2015, 06:18 PM

    Can I as someone from this community just abandon them to the extremists. I know that's what the extremists want. But I refuse to let the extremists win.

     

    I think this is a good idea in principle.  However it only works when your community is somewhat liberal to begin with.

    My extended family is not salafi but they are traditional fundamentalist sunnis and are no less likely to accept any reformed interpretation as they would consider that a heresy.


    I think we should do what has worked with christianity.  Keep criticizing all the flaws with the religion and how it is not practical in the modern world until the religious are left with no option but to reform or see their religion keep losing adherents at lightening speed.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #9 - November 01, 2015, 06:53 PM

    Christianity's reform came with a lot of bloodshed. Governments like KSA and Iran would need to be removed as I do not see either willing changing their views.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #10 - November 02, 2015, 02:51 AM

    Christianity's reform came with a lot of bloodshed. Governments like KSA and Iran would need to be removed as I do not see either willing changing their views.

    forget governments and forget  IDIOTS OF ISLAM that supports such Islamic governments., but  bogart I would greatly appreciate if you could list events of "Lot of Bloodshed" in Christianity within Christianity and  with outsiders..

    Some sort of TImeline of Christianity starting from the death of that  34 years or so old alleged Christ Character.............  ideally in another thread similar to Chronological History of  Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #11 - November 03, 2015, 08:26 AM

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-reformation-for-islam-1426859626 / http://www.christianpost.com/news/ex-muslim-ayaan-hirsi-ali-proposes-5-changes-to-islam-that-could-help-lead-its-religious-reformation-137179/
    (if you don't have a subscription to the first, the second link outlines the principles
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY17d4ZhY8M

    Worth watching/reading... I urge you do, at least the first one.
    First is Ayaan Hirsi Ali's 5 principles for 'islamic reform'

    The Other is a discussion/ lecture from Professor Tariq Ramadan and Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, giving an idea of reform without altering the tradition, and demonstrating well whether Islam has the capacity to do so.

    I personally don't think reformists have the presence or prominence in the Islamic world unfortunately. I guess the only ones that do are Wahabbi movements such as Isis and al qaeda. To a lesser extent, the advent of the Muslim brotherhood in egypt, and even Erdogan's prominence in Turkey are showing how if there is any 'reform' or change taking place, its in the direction of Islamism rather than 'pluralism, secularism and enlightenment.'
    I honestly think we are moving in a contrary direction to that which you guys and Hirsi Ali are hoping.

    How do you guys envisage any kind of significant change or movement?
    The arming of secular groups, ousting of Islamist regimes?
    How would such a movement begin?

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #12 - November 03, 2015, 09:25 AM

    forget governments and forget  IDIOTS OF ISLAM that supports such Islamic governments., but  bogart I would greatly appreciate if you could list events of "Lot of Bloodshed" in Christianity within Christianity and  with outsiders..

    Some sort of TImeline of Christianity starting from the death of that  34 years or so old alleged Christ Character.............  ideally in another thread similar to Chronological History of  Islam


    The Orange Rebellion (80 years war). The English Civil Wars and Revolts of the Tudor Era. The French religious wars. The 30 years war in Germany. The Swiss civil wars during Calvin's era.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #13 - November 03, 2015, 10:08 AM

    However it only works when your community is somewhat liberal to begin with.


    My family - immediate and extended plus many long term friends are quite liberal.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #14 - November 03, 2015, 10:10 AM

    Christianity's reform came with a lot of bloodshed. Governments like KSA and Iran would need to be removed as I do not see either willing changing their views.


    That was a long time ago. Things are different now. As for the government of KSA - that is for their people to decide - I'm sure they will when the time is right. I believe the time of the Saudi kings and princes is numbered.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #15 - November 03, 2015, 10:12 AM

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-reformation-for-islam-1426859626 / http://www.christianpost.com/news/ex-muslim-ayaan-hirsi-ali-proposes-5-changes-to-islam-that-could-help-lead-its-religious-reformation-137179/
    (if you don't have a subscription to the first, the second link outlines the principles
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY17d4ZhY8M

    Worth watching/reading... I urge you do, at least the first one.
    First is Ayaan Hirsi Ali's 5 principles for 'islamic reform'

    The Other is a discussion/ lecture from Professor Tariq Ramadan and Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, giving an idea of reform without altering the tradition, and demonstrating well whether Islam has the capacity to do so.

    I personally don't think reformists have the presence or prominence in the Islamic world unfortunately. I guess the only ones that do are Wahabbi movements such as Isis and al qaeda. To a lesser extent, the advent of the Muslim brotherhood in egypt, and even Erdogan's prominence in Turkey are showing how if there is any 'reform' or change taking place, its in the direction of Islamism rather than 'pluralism, secularism and enlightenment.'
    I honestly think we are moving in a contrary direction to that which you guys and Hirsi Ali are hoping.

    How do you guys envisage any kind of significant change or movement?
    The arming of secular groups, ousting of Islamist regimes?
    How would such a movement begin?



    IMHO the messenger *IS* as important as the message and I can't take anything Ayyan Hirsi Ali says seriously after selling herself to right-wing fuckwits.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #16 - November 03, 2015, 02:02 PM

    IMHO the messenger *IS* as important as the message and I can't take anything Ayyan Hirsi Ali says seriously after selling herself to right-wing fuckwits.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxfnq8Yeex0
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #17 - November 03, 2015, 02:07 PM

    I personally don't think reformists have the presence or prominence in the Islamic world unfortunately. I guess the only ones that do are Wahabbi movements such as Isis and al qaeda. To a lesser extent, the advent of the Muslim brotherhood in egypt, and even Erdogan's prominence in Turkey are showing how if there is any 'reform' or change taking place, its in the direction of Islamism rather than 'pluralism, secularism and enlightenment.'
    I honestly think we are moving in a contrary direction to that which you guys and Hirsi Ali are hoping.



    I think you're right  on this.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #18 - November 03, 2015, 04:28 PM

    That was a long time ago. Things are different now. As for the government of KSA - that is for their people to decide - I'm sure they will when the time is right. I believe the time of the Saudi kings and princes is numbered.


    The people of KSA will wake up once they lose their wealth and privileges. When I was living there most people adored the royal family and government and were extremely patriotic but that's because their government gives them a pretty good standard of living if you're willing to ignore the fact that human rights are minimal. Thus won't last, as poverty and unemployment is on the increase over there.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #19 - November 03, 2015, 09:08 PM

    That was a long time ago. Things are different now. As for the government of KSA - that is for their people to decide - I'm sure they will when the time is right. I believe the time of the Saudi kings and princes is numbered.


    Things are not that different. There is still the same monarchy/religion link as was seen in England with both justifying the other to keep themselves in power. The Arabia Spring movements collapsed or were placated without any major change to the system. As with the Reformation a number of people made a decision to change their society. However when the state refused to follow along it ended in bloodshed. Likewise when governments tried to change but the population did there was again bloodshed. I believe it will require a revolution in the case of these totalitarian governments. It may not be as long, on the same scale or as bloody but I think it will be the only way. Also you should consider the possibility of bloodshed between radical groups against each other and existing governments. External nations readily arms and supplies those fighting against radicals but when it comes to protests by populations they write nasty letters then do next to nothing to actually punish governments. No sanctions, no major change in relations, business as usual. Few nations will put their trade links on the line when it comes to an ideological opposite government. Hence nations willingly trade with governments that oppress their people since we love our cheap Chinese products and oil.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #20 - December 01, 2015, 08:46 PM

    There is still the same monarchy/religion link as was seen in England with both justifying the other to keep themselves in power.

    The best argument I've seen to support monarchy, is the monarchy/math link. The monarch owns the territory because shut up that's why, and otherwise you get chaos. (I'm basically channelling Hobbes, here. Who was supporting the English Crown.)

    Linking property-ownership to "religion" runs dangerously close to linking it to virtue. All the world can see that the Saudis are not among the planet's most virtuous families. Go visit Monaco or Las Vegas sometime; you might meet one.

    The Saudis' support of Islam is proof of the Saudis' intrinsic weakness, not of their virtue - and not even of their being particularly good Muslims. They would be better off executing their worst imams and presiding over a decent economy, like the Singaporeans preside over a decent economy.
  • To Reform or not to Reform?
     Reply #21 - December 02, 2015, 04:38 AM

    I personally don't think reformists have the presence or prominence in the Islamic world unfortunately. I guess the only ones that do are Wahabbi movements such as Isis and al qaeda. To a lesser extent, the advent of the Muslim brotherhood in egypt, and even Erdogan's prominence in Turkey are showing how if there is any 'reform' or change taking place, its in the direction of Islamism rather than 'pluralism, secularism and enlightenment.'


    Certainly the events since the Arab spring have not been positive in this regard. I was about to point to the increasing influence of the Kurds as one positive, only to remind myself that their liberalism has much to do with cultural influences and, knowing the dynamics in the region, won't serve as a template to others.

    Regarding Erdogan, it's true that Turkey's impressive economic performance would have bolstered his support during the last few years, but government aside, is Islamism experiencing a resurgence with the general population?
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