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 Topic: Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.

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  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #180 - August 21, 2015, 11:23 AM

    A while ago someone started a thread called "You are God: Write your own 10 commandments". This is what I came up with.

    1. To harm needlessly is blasphemy against the Lord your God.

    2. Judge not on status or wealth but on character.

    3. Blessed are the honourable, the virtuous, the charitable, the open minded, and the merciful.

    4. Whosoever strives to enslave ones fellow man, or force oneself without consent onto another, unless that person is wicked and harming those who cannot defend themselves, blasphemes against the Lord your God.

    5. Honour the Earth and all it's creatures.

    6. When faced with the path of violence or the path of peace, choose the path of peace.

    7. Entrench yourself not in dogma, but strive to think and flourish and improve.

    8. If someone is in need of help and you can offer it, do so.

    9. Non violent expression shall never be met with violence.

    10. If it harms none, do what you will.


    If people read that and think I came up with a better list for all humanity for all time than god himself, that says something. parrot

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #181 - August 21, 2015, 02:08 PM

    Quote
    If people read that and think I came up with a better list for all humanity for all time than god himself, that says something. parrot


    Not bad at all Cheesy. I guess the Bible's Ten Commandments must have looked very good for people living during its time though.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #182 - August 21, 2015, 02:21 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjhFlI6-ZBI

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #183 - August 21, 2015, 03:30 PM

    Hahaha thanks for sharing Tongue
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #184 - August 21, 2015, 03:55 PM

    It's working. Let's see what delights ummah has in store. I'm going to guess guilt tripping, insults, claims that something is wrong with you, fearmongering, threats about hell, and some version of who are you to question allah. No actual answers to any questions. Let's find out. popcorn



    lol... ahhh you know ummah.com so well lol
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #185 - August 21, 2015, 03:57 PM

    Nope, none of them were able to answer me. I am interested in what their scholars have to say about slaves and rape. I doubt that they will have an answer but at least if listen then no one can tell me that I didn't try.

    There's a thread with some members defending rape over here. That's what pushed me to start posting on this forum:
    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?448913-Muslims-can-have-sex-with-female-slaves-(Kaniz-in-Persian)


    btw I put slave rape in my Khutbah today:

    " ...scholars will forbid shaking hands with the opposite sex, but condone non-consensual sex with a slave girl! Or forbid eating a Big Mac, but condone stoning an adulterer to death! Shariah law has not only become a complete embarrassment but it is a deeply shameful indictment on the state of Muslims... "

    http://agnosticmuslimkhutbahs.blogspot.co.uk/

     Afro
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #186 - August 21, 2015, 04:04 PM

    I know right? Some of them seem to have a despicable superiority complex and view "kaffirs" as some sort of subhuman species.


    I swear some of them are trolls. I was on there a long time and got into many debates and it was astonishing how little some actually knew about Islam and said the most stupid things - yet these were the ones claiming to be the most fervent and devout Muslims. I strongly suspect some are just mischief mongers.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #187 - August 21, 2015, 04:11 PM

    Interesting....there are a lot of verses in the Quran which contradict each other so how are we able to accept the who book as the truth? Could work for someone with multiple personality disorder, perhaps :/


    The Qur'an contains a great many contradictions and is full of ambiguity. It also has some parts that I would argue are of poor literary worth. Having said that I do find other parts very moving and enchanting - particularly the rhyming rhythmic shorter Suras towards the end.

    Sadly what really makes it impossible to actually value the Qur'an as a great piece of literature is the ridiculous claim that it is a divine miracle beyond human ability.

    It is this claim that compels one to judge it harshly - rather than judging it within it's context as any other human work would be.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #188 - August 21, 2015, 04:18 PM

    Hahaha thanks for sharing Tongue


    I love that channel. You know the most amazing thing is how many people think Moses existed. I'm not sure you can even say he might have been based on an actual person and the legend simply grew over time. There are very simple arguments pointing towards the view that Moses never even existed.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #189 - August 21, 2015, 09:12 PM

    I swear some of them are trolls. I was on there a long time and got into many debates and it was astonishing how little some actually knew about Islam and said the most stupid things - yet these were the ones claiming to be the most fervent and devout Muslims. I strongly suspect some are just mischief mongers.


    It is a website which is bound to attract some trolls. I came across people who were so patient with me while I was pointing out the flaws in the religion even though it's so sacred to them. Then I had others calling me an apostate and a kafir, those were the sort who were either trolling or really do think that non-Muslims and doubting Muslims are beneath them.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #190 - August 21, 2015, 09:15 PM

    btw I put slave rape in my Khutbah today:

    " ...scholars will forbid shaking hands with the opposite sex, but condone non-consensual sex with a slave girl! Or forbid eating a Big Mac, but condone stoning an adulterer to death! Shariah law has not only become a complete embarrassment but it is a deeply shameful indictment on the state of Muslims... "

    http://agnosticmuslimkhutbahs.blogspot.co.uk/

     Afro


    I'm very interested in listening to this. It's an issue in Islam that I absolutely cannot overlook. The other parts that made me uncomfortable I could have ignored if I really wanted to.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #191 - August 21, 2015, 09:19 PM

    I love that channel. You know the most amazing thing is how many people think Moses existed. I'm not sure you can even say he might have been based on an actual person and the legend simply grew over time. There are very simple arguments pointing towards the view that Moses never even existed.


    I think they were the ones who have one character blurred out and they called him "Not Muhammad"? A friend showed me a video they created a while back.

    Hmmm...I have never seen the evidence for or against Moses existing. What is the main reason why some believe he is fictional?
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #192 - August 21, 2015, 10:46 PM

    There's no evidence at all, for any of it. Not for a historical Moses, not for the slaves, not for the plagues, not for the desert wanderings, nothing. I'm a little drunk right now but I'll try to give an idea.

    The first thing to mention is that there's no real evidence of jewish slaves in ancient Egypt, at least not in the scale the abrahamic religions would have us believe. At the time of the supposed uprising there were 600,000 families, which works out to about two million people. Two million people who lived under hardship and tyrannical rule. Let's not even mention that the ancient Egyptians treated slaves as a common practise in ways that are completely contradictory to this. Let's not even mention that they couldn't of built the pyramids because they were supposedly enslaved around three centuries AFTER the completion of the pyramids in 1750 B.C.

    First off, the Egyptians kept good records. It's how we know so much about them. If they lost two million of their slaves, the economy would have collapsed overnight. Never happened. The competing empires would have smelled blood in the water. Never happened. There's not a single footnote even among the Roman Empire that says "Hey, hear what happened in Egypt?" It would of been big news. No mention of it. Anywhere. Nothing.

    The desert they were lost in for 40 years? 120 miles across. They could of walked from one end to the other in a week. There are people who crossed the width of America, which is what, 2700 miles? 3000 miles? Took them a year. The better part of three thousand miles and you cross it in a year. 120? Two million people, used to the desert, are lost for four decades.

    You also have to wonder why they did it in the first place. Egypt is basically the Nile. Just 50 miles the other way a huge body of fresh water that no one knew was there. If god wanted them safe, wouldn't that make more sense? But no. Two million desert natives lost for 40 years in a desert they would of crossed in one week.

    While living there for all that time, they left nothing. No pottery. No hebrew writing. No camp remains. No food remains. No place of worship, no discarded or ripped piece of cloth, nothing.

    And that really sums it up, there's nothing. No records of losing a quarter of the entire population. No records of economic downturn. No evidence of families surviving in the desert. There wasn't even a labour shortage.

    You'd almost think it was made up.

    The entire story seems to be a plagiarism of Sargon of Akkad, a story that pre-dates Moses by a millennia. While he was clearly a brilliant military leader, it was the story he told of his youth and rise to power that exerted a powerful influence over the Sumerians he sought to conquer. Instead of representing himself as a man chosen by the gods to rule, he presented a much humbler image of himself as an orphan set adrift in life who was taken in by a kind gardener and granted the love of the goddess Inanna. His mother could not reveal her pregnancy or keep the child, and so she placed him in a basket which she then let go on the Euphrates River. She had sealed the basket with tar, and the water carried him safely to where he was later found by a man named Akki who was a gardener for Ur-Zababa, the king of the Sumerian city of Kish. In creating this legend, Sargon carefully distanced himself from the kings of the past (who claimed divine right) and aligned himself with the common people of the region rather than the ruling elite. Sound familiar?

    Just to give a clear idea, compare his birth to Mose' birth in the bible and quran..

    Exodus 2, 1-10

    Quote
    And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi.

    And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months.

    And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid it in the reeds by the river's brink.

    And his sister stood afar off, to wit what would be done to him.

    And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to wash herself at the river; and her maidens walked along by the river's side; and when she saw the ark among the reeds, she sent her maid to fetch it.

    And when she had opened it, she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This is one of the Hebrews' children.

    Then said his sister to Pharaoh's daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee?

    And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maid went and called the child's mother.

    And Pharaoh's daughter said unto her, Take this child away, and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And the women took the child, and nursed it.

    And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.


    Surat Al-Qaşaş 2-13

    Quote
    These are revelations of the Scripture that maketh plain.

    We narrate unto thee (somewhat) of the story of Moses and Pharaoh with truth, for folk who believe.

    Lo! Pharaoh exalted himself in the earth and made its people castes. A tribe among them he oppressed, killing their sons and sparing their women. Lo! he was of those who work corruption.

    And We desired to show favour unto those who were oppressed in the earth, and to make them examples and to make them the inheritors,

    And to establish them in the earth, and to show Pharaoh and Haman and their hosts that which they feared from them.

    And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers.

    And the family of Pharaoh took him up, that he might become for them an enemy and a sorrow, Lo! Pharaoh and Haman and their hosts were ever sinning.

    And the wife of Pharaoh said: (He will be) a consolation for me and for thee. Kill him not. Peradventure he may be of use to us, or we may choose him for a son. And they perceived not.

    And the heart of the mother of Moses became void, and she would have betrayed him if We had not fortified her heart, that she might be of the believers.

    And she said unto his sister: Trace him. So she observed him from afar, and they perceived not.

    And We had before forbidden foster-mothers for him, so she said: Shall I show you a household who will rear him for you and take care of him?

    So We restored him to his mother that she might be comforted and not grieve, and that she might know that the promise of Allah is true. But most of them know not.


    Sargon -

    Quote
    Sargon, the mighty king, King of Agade, am I. My mother was a vestal, my father I knew not, while my father's brother dwelt in the mountains. In my city Azuripani, which is situated on the bank of the Euphrates, my mother, the vestal, bore me. In a hidden place she brought me forth. She laid me in a vessel made of reeds, closed my door with pitch, and dropped me down into the river, which did not drown me. The river carried me to Akki, the water carrier. Akki the water carrier lifted me up in the kindness of his heart, Akki the water carrier raised me as his own son, Akki the water carrier made of me his gardener. In my work as a gardener I was beloved by Ishtar, I became the king, and for forty-five years I held kingly sway.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #193 - August 21, 2015, 10:48 PM

    Just found this Guardian article.

    http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/nov/30/moses-man-versus-myth-ridley-scott

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #194 - August 22, 2015, 12:58 AM

    Fascinating. I don't think I had heard that one before.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #195 - August 22, 2015, 08:09 AM

    Same here; the only evidence I really went by was what the Quran says but now that I don't trust it, this makes more sense.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #196 - August 22, 2015, 08:14 AM

    While I used to post on Ummah.com I would have people telling me that Western society was miserable and that families were breaking down because of women having equal rights (by law, I'm not naive enough to think that this is true in practice yet). What bugged me a lot is that they have no idea what they're talking about because I'm so much happier living in the West than I ever was when I lived in a conservative Muslim country. And the reason why it looks like families are breaking down is that women in the West can leave unhappy marriages without stigma whereas women in most Muslim countries are encouraged to suffer in silence. So instead of divorces in Muslim countries there are several miserable marriages.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #197 - August 22, 2015, 09:05 AM

    Islam was conceived by men, so obviously its going to favor men, no surprise there. Which is why all that talk about Mohammed being a feminist and champion of women rights is downright laughable. Dude legislated misogyny in the religion he founded.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #198 - August 22, 2015, 09:44 AM

    Quote
    If someone is in need of help and you can offer it, do so.


    This is my philosophy. I mentioned it once to someone, and he was very sceptical and didn't agree at all.  I found it strange and somewhat surprising, but realized it seems to be the rule to be selfish...

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #199 - August 22, 2015, 09:51 AM

    Same here; the only evidence I really went by was what the Quran says but now that I don't trust it, this makes more sense.


    Would you accept the existence of Dracula if I gave you Bram Stoker's novel? No. You'd want evidence it was true. The quran isn't evidence. You can't use the quran to prove the quran, that's circular logic. It's like using a Spider-Man comic to prove Spider-Man.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #200 - August 22, 2015, 09:52 AM

    This is my philosophy. I mentioned it once to someone, and he was very sceptical and didn't agree at all.  I found it strange and somewhat surprising, but realized it seems to be the rule to be selfish...


    Aww. 001_wub

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #201 - August 22, 2015, 03:31 PM

    Would you accept the existence of Dracula if I gave you Bram Stoker's novel? No. You'd want evidence it was true. The quran isn't evidence. You can't use the quran to prove the quran, that's circular logic. It's like using a Spider-Man comic to prove Spider-Man.


    Exactly. Growing up we were taught to take the Quran as the literal truth though. I rarely wondered whether there was evidence to support everything the Quran said and just believed people who claimed that it contained scientific miracles. From what I researched so far it seems as though there are in fact scientific contradictions.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #202 - August 22, 2015, 03:37 PM

    Islam was conceived by men, so obviously its going to favor men, no surprise there. Which is why all that talk about Mohammed being a feminist and champion of women rights is downright laughable. Dude legislated misogyny in the religion he founded.


    Honestly it is a lie that many Muslim women have been brainwashed to believe. I would constantly read posts saying things like "it is a man's right to discipline his wife, it is a man's right to marry another women, it is a man's right to know where his wife is going, this is a man's right, that's a man's right" then when I ask what my rights are they can barely list them. And apparently those rights are conditional depending on how well I submit to a man. I feel like mentioning these things to all of my Muslim girlfriends because it frustrates me so but they seem so happy in their blissful unawareness. I would rather not destroy their happiness and make them become like the way I am at the moment.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #203 - August 22, 2015, 03:53 PM

    Women in Islam:

    Are worth half of a man's testimony.

    Inherit half of what a man inherits (back then this made sense but not now).

    Get half the number of sheep sacrificed for them that men get when they are born.

    Are entitled to a fourth of what a man is entitled to with regards to spouses (I wouldn't want more than one husband but would never stay in a marriage that became polygamous).

    There are probably other things that I can't remember right now but it looks as though Islam is heavily implying that we're worth half of a man.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #204 - August 22, 2015, 03:59 PM

    Blood money is half of that for a man

    Divorce for women is an impossibility, on the initiative of the woman. Anyone claiming otherwise is playing with semantics and definitions.

    The urine of a baby girl is najas, while that of a baby boy is clean. Roll Eyes

    Women cannot marry without the permission of a male in charge of her.

    Basically, a woman is a perpetual minor all her life.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #205 - August 22, 2015, 04:05 PM

    Don't forget that lovely hadith:

    "Women are deficient in mind and religion."

    I love the way that the reason they are deficient in mind is because their testimony is worth half of a man - erm... that's called circular reasoning!!  grin12

    Plus they are deficient in religion is because during their period they can't do all the 'ibada like praying fasting etc... WTF?? And who's fault is that??? (...I'm looking at you God!)

    lol
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #206 - August 22, 2015, 04:19 PM

    .
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #207 - August 22, 2015, 04:58 PM

    Blood money is half of that for a man

    Divorce for women is an impossibility, on the initiative of the woman. Anyone claiming otherwise is playing with semantics and definitions.

    The urine of a baby girl is najas, while that of a baby boy is clean. Roll Eyes

    Women cannot marry without the permission of a male in charge of her.

    Basically, a woman is a perpetual minor all her life.


    I didn't know about the blood money! That's wrong on so many levels  wacko

    So our lives are worth half of a man's life?Huh? How will Muslims with the knowledge of this ruling explain it away?
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #208 - August 22, 2015, 04:59 PM

    Don't forget that lovely hadith:

    "Women are deficient in mind and religion."

    I love the way that the reason they are deficient in mind is because their testimony is worth half of a man - erm... that's called circular reasoning!!  grin12

    Plus they are deficient in religion is because during their period they can't do all the 'ibada like praying fasting etc... WTF?? And who's fault is that??? (...I'm looking at you God!)

    lol


    When I ask for evidence of this deficiency I get referred back to the Quran. No, I want evidence which supports what the Quran says! They don't seem to get that.

    Lol so Prophet Muhammad is blaming women for having something which God gave to us. Then I hear Muslims saying that Christianity is sexist because Eve is blamed for Adam's sins. While I agree, they can't pretend that Islam does not do something similar.
  • Blatant misogyny in Islam is what is making me question it.
     Reply #209 - August 22, 2015, 05:02 PM

    Because the economical value of women is zero. But allah in his mercy and love gave us half. You know so the men have money to replace us with new wives and stuff.

    No but seriously. It's because the loss of a man has a greater economical impact. So they argue it's not about human value, rather replacement for the material loss. Which is bullshit if you look a bit closer, but we already know that.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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