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 Topic: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist

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  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #60 - August 14, 2015, 02:44 PM

    I accept your surrender. Shall we move on to the bible/quran?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #61 - August 14, 2015, 02:54 PM

    That's a separate topic.
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #62 - August 14, 2015, 03:22 PM

    How do you provide evidence of that particular god without them?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #63 - August 14, 2015, 03:54 PM

    For met he Quran/Bible basically point you in the right direction and it's up to the individual to investigate, verify  and reason. As I mentioned before every evidence of God presented can be  considered as not in-conclusive evidence of God. At some point you need to draw the line. Whether it's the sea parting in front of your eyes, the dead being brought to life, blind being healed, observations of living organisms, etc. Some will accept these some won't. That's just how people are is what I'm learning.

    So to put it simply in my opinion the Quran and Bible are telling you to go out in the world and look and reason with yourself. They contain guidance of how to live your life as well, If you agree good for you, if not it's your choice.
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #64 - August 14, 2015, 04:07 PM

    Whenever you debate scripture the debate will always be different based on a person's own understanding of it. As I said on the previous page, I've known jews/christians/muslims who accept evolution and even have their faith strengthened by it. This is of course is a very different conversation to someone who has a literal reading. They do everything they can to try and disprove it as they see it as a threat to their religion, particularly with the hadith, as they believe that not only was there a first man, but that first man was a 90 foot giant made of clay.

    Same as anything else really. Eden and the magic apple as an actual place and an actual magic apple vs poetry, metaphor and allegory to understand our place in existence and our relationship with god.

    Can I get your thoughts on this khutbah (for anyone unfamiliar with islamic terminology, a khutbah is basically a sermon)?

    Quote
    Adam & Eve

    (Al-Baqara 30-39 & al-A'raaf 11-25)

    Muslim scholars down the ages have taught that the story of Adam and Eve literally happened just as described in the Qur'an. That Adam and Eve were real individuals and were the first human beings. Many Muslims use this literal understanding to reject the theory of evolution. But should we really take this story literally? I believe that to take it literally diminishes its underlying lesson and misses the point. It confines it to a simplistic story of two individuals. Whereas this story is actually an allegory of the evolution of human consciousness. It is a representation of the period in human evolution when we became self-aware, developed language & began think ahead & articulate abstract ideas. A time when our mind had developed the ability to represent concrete phenomena using sounds that represented ideas. We developed the ability to plan and organise ourselves on a scale that led to the human revolution. We evolved the abilities that set us aside from the rest of the animal kingdom. It triggered the rapid evolution of the human line of hominids that had until recently been no more significant than similar apes and creatures in the ancient forests and plains of Africa where we eventually set off to conquer the world.

    In short, the story of Adam and Eve is about human evolution. It's about gaining the ability to visualise possible scenarios and prepare for them. This put us at a huge advantage over other animals who may have had greater strength and natural abilities than us. But we had evolved mental abilities they had not, and the mind proved to be the most powerful weapon of all.

    This is what the story of Adam and Eve in the Qur'an symbolises when it relates how they were able to name phenomena in the physical world, while the rest of creation could not and the angels were astonished. Here we see a representation of how human's developed language and the ability to communicate complex ideas. Humanity had developed a special ability that set it apart from the rest of creation.

    Humans became more than just conscious - since most animals are conscious to a certain extent - but we are also self-aware - as the story of how Adam and Eve symbolises when they became aware of their nakedness - something animals to not possess. Self-awareness is not only consciousness of your body and your environment, but it is recognition of that consciousness—not only understanding that you exist but further comprehending that you are aware of your existence. To be self-aware is to realise that you are a thinking being and to think about your thoughts, examine and analyse them. To conceptualise ideas and be motivated and driven by transcendental beliefs and ideals and concepts that can bind and direct humans on a larger scale than just family or family grouping.

    When we think about when Adam & Eve were in the innocent state in paradise - there were animals in that state too. It was a time before we were self-aware. We were one with nature, with God - just as the animals, trees, flowers mountains and rivers are, in harmony with nature and the world around us.

    But then as the story Adam & Eve progresses humanity begins to enter into a new state of being. Adam and Eve represent the waking conscious mind of mankind. When the conscious and subconscious become distinct, where inner joy and innocence and peace can no longer be maintained because now the ego starts to grow and take control. We become separate from the natural course, we "fall" or we become separated from God. The story represents this as expulsion from the paradise - the symbolic state we were in. It represents our move to a new consciousness. We are now more acutely aware of the pain and hardship of the world around us. Where we struggle to find sense and meaning and ask; Why? Who? What?

    As the story goes on Adam & Eve are tempted by Satan who is simply a metaphor for man's own "Ego". The Nasf al Amaara bisoo' ("The self that makes us err" النفس الأمارة بالسوء ), and because the Ego now takes over the driver’s seat of man’s soul, Paradise becomes lost.

    Our new reality is one of constant battle with our Ego. We are thrust into an ongoing struggle to find our place in the world, to reach out to the the ethereal and the numinous mystery beyond our material existence, to find the inner peace and joy that our previous state of innocence and unity with the natural world gave us, while at the same time mastering the special gifts and position of Khalifa (caretaker) that we have been given, to care for the environment around us.

    Understanding that stories like Adam & Eve are symbolic metaphors for our human journey helps us realise that it is part of the wider human narrative that takes place in all cultures and religions. The narrative we use to understand and make sense of our place in this world. It should help us see that we are all "One Human Race." That although we interpret this journey in different ways depending on our cultures and environments there is nevertheless a thread of unity of our human experience that runs through all religions, beliefs, myths and philosophies. That differences are skin deep and superficial. That petty squabbling and fighting over such differences is senseless and short-sighted. We are like the blind wise-men who each described the elephant based on the only part they had access to, then argued fiercely that the others were wrong. If we can appreciate this, then perhaps we can one day take another evolutionary leap forward and start to build a better more peaceful and loving world for us all.


    http://agnosticmuslimkhutbahs.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/the-story-of-adam-eve-in-quran.html

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #65 - August 14, 2015, 04:37 PM

    To put it simply it's wrong and misleading. The part about the ego has some truth but that's about it. The writer does not understand the Quran/Bible and the reality we live in. My guess is that they have been taken aback by the so called irrefutable scientific evidence of human evolution and are trying to reconcile the Quran/Bible with current mainstream scientific propaganda.

    The devil is mentioned a number of times in ways that can never be considered as an ego. Does ego go to hell with many others and sob and regret? Pharaoh and his people are clearly mentioned as powerful people shown many signs. The Quran says go and look in the earth for nations that were destroyed. Jesus and other prophets are clearly described as human conveying the message of God.

    The writer needs to think more deeply.

    PS. Just found out the khutbah was by Hassan. To Hassan I am just giving my thoughts. No offence intended.
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #66 - August 14, 2015, 04:39 PM

    Whenever you debate scripture the debate will always be different based on a person's own understanding of it.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #67 - August 14, 2015, 04:40 PM

    Which is why I think we need science to be a common ground.
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #68 - August 14, 2015, 04:43 PM

    Again, it depends on your understanding of scripture. The above sermon is by a muslim bloke who obviously reads the quran a certain way and it works for him.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #69 - August 14, 2015, 04:44 PM

    The devil is mentioned a number of times in ways that can never be considered as an ego. Does ego go to hell with many others and sob and regret?


    I think you said you're a father. If one of your children died would your heart not break? Would your soul not weep?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #70 - August 14, 2015, 05:14 PM

    Again, it depends on your understanding of scripture. The above sermon is by a muslim bloke who obviously reads the quran a certain way and it works for him.


    Which is fine but scientifically it is incorrect.
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #71 - August 14, 2015, 05:17 PM

    Neither the bible nor the quran is a science book.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #72 - August 14, 2015, 05:42 PM

    Again, it depends on your understanding of scripture. The above sermon is by a muslim bloke who obviously reads the quran a certain way and it works for him.


    He is not a muslim he is a believer. A muslim is somone who believes in God and is physically obeying his commands. The vast majority of Muslims are simply believers. The minority who are praying with sincerity and doing good deeds and are being patient are muslims which can also apply to anyone who believes in one God such Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc. and is doing good.
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #73 - August 14, 2015, 05:43 PM

    Neither the bible nor the quran is a science book.


    We shall see...
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #74 - August 14, 2015, 05:46 PM

    So do you have a literal view then? 90 foot tall clay giant, magic apples, talking snakes, a bloke nearly one thousand years old building an ark and somehow getting two of every creature, etc?

    How do you know your view is right and Hassan's is wrong?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #75 - August 14, 2015, 05:48 PM

    The 90ft clay giant is not from the Quran and neither is the snake although I do believe animals can talk and we can only understand given the ability to do so.

    Things like those are just thing you choose to accept or not. It's no big deal. I like to concentrate on what CAN be tested today.
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #76 - August 14, 2015, 05:54 PM

    How do you know your view is right and Hassan's is wrong?


    ToE of humans has no credible scientific evidence. I've looked at the evidence. Fossils and DNA is not evidence of human evolution. It is just evidence that certain structures are similar. Look up using DNA to determine ancestry of humans. It's pretty reliable to the parent level but from grand parents and beyond it's not credible. You need to understand that they simply compare structures and have assumed certain things. Nothing else. They can never ever use that to determine who reproduced with who. So if you can't do that in the human species how do you justify using it cross species. And then you can't even define what a species is since the term species is so plastic given our observations in the real world.

    Like I said before you would do well to read up on the science. It's fascinating.
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #77 - August 14, 2015, 06:02 PM

    It is indeed fascinating. Your comment is wrong by the way. Keep in mind evolution and the theory of evolution are two different things. Evolution is a proven fact, and in the realms of the scientific method an established theory, which is the closest science ever gets to flat out calling something a fact.

    And again, evolution is evidence neither for or against the existence of god.

    You seem to think otherwise. Can you elaborate on it? What does evolution have to do with god?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #78 - August 14, 2015, 06:16 PM

    The 90ft clay giant is not from the Quran


    I clearly mentioned it was hadith.

    neither is the snake


    You said you accept the bible. Also:

    Quran 7:20-7:22

    Then Satan whispered to them that he might manifest unto them that which was hidden from them of their shame, and he said: Your Lord forbade you from this tree only lest ye should become angels or become of the immortals.

    And he swore unto them (saying): Lo! I am a sincere adviser unto you.

    Thus did he lead them on with guile. And when they tasted of the tree their shame was manifest to them and they began to hide (by heaping) on themselves some of the leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called them, (saying): Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you: Lo! Satan is an open enemy to you?

    Things like those are just thing you choose to accept or not.


    I disagree. Belief isn't a choice. It's not something we have control over.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #79 - August 14, 2015, 07:02 PM

    So Ted, I'm going to try to explain something that may help us along. The reason you've been unconvincing with your arguments is that you have no arguments. You make claims and don't back them up. I can do that as well.

    Once, many moons ago, using blood and blackest magic, I awoke an ancient, dark, great and terrible goddess from slumber, who told me secrets. This goddess told me when she ruled the Earth, nightmares walked among us, walked and danced, skewering victims in plain sight, laying their fears and worst desires out for everyone to see. They did this to make her laugh. Now nightmares are trapped inside the heads of humans, pitiful echoes of themselves. The goddess wondered whom they angered so to merit such a fate.

    And, like you, I have done nothing whatsoever to back up my claim. I might even challenge you to prove me wrong. But see, the thing is, the burden of proof isn't on you, it's on me. If I fail to convince you of my conversation with this dark goddess, then that's that. I'm not going to randomly say you don't understand such and such and then tell you to research more. That's unfairly shifting the burden of proof.

    Do you understand?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #80 - August 14, 2015, 07:12 PM

    This may also be food for thought.

    "You know, you can't prove Dave is lying."

    "How do I explain this. Okay George, I know it's difficult for you, but try and stay with me here. See that person over there in the red top? Yes, that one. Don't stare George. Right. So say that person came up to me and told me they had a pet dog, I'd believe them. I know people have pet dogs, dogs were bred to be human companions, having them as pets is very common. I see it every day. Now, they might be lying. They might not have a pet dog. But it's so common, I would believe them. Now, imagine instead of a dog they tell me they have a pet dragon."

    "What's the dragon's name?"

    "Huh? I dunno. Smokey. Right, so that person over there in the red top tells me they have a pet dragon. Now that's a little different from saying they have a dog. I've never seen a dragon, I've never seen or heard anything to convince me dragons exist. So I'd need to see it for myself before I believe they have a mythological creature as a pet. Now this person could spin me a wild tale. Tell me that they can prove they have a dragon because of the ice caps. Thousands of years ago Smokey fought a race of ice giants and melted them with his fire breath, and that the ice caps are the frozen remains. But the ice caps are perfectly explained through nature. Now they could come up with even more stories trying to convince me. They could tell me a million stories about how Smokey did this and Smokey did that but if there's always another explanation that doesn't prove anything. And they still haven't shown me Smokey! I can believe they have a dog without proof because I see the evidence on a daily basis, but I can't do the same for a dragon. Understand?"


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #81 - August 17, 2015, 09:55 PM

    "But the ice caps are perfectly explained through nature"

    This is the key thing you just don't understand. You can't explain through nature. You think it will be explained by nature. Keep waiting.
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #82 - August 17, 2015, 10:10 PM

    Right. The ice caps are surely the remains of ice giants. Truly it must have been Smokey the dragon.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #83 - August 17, 2015, 10:38 PM

    Lol.
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #84 - August 17, 2015, 11:52 PM

    Do not lol at Smokey. He knows your address and has a fiery temper. Work with him to prove geologists as the frauds they are with their false research and explanations for the polar ice caps. Show you cannot explain it through nature (even though you can). Smokey is the missing link.

    Just as from Niflheim there arose coldness and all things grim, so what was facing close to Muspell was hot and bright, but Ginnungagap was as mild as a windless sky. And when the rime and the blowing of the warmth met so that it thawed and dripped, there was a quickening from these flowing drops due to the power of the source of the heat, and it became the form of a man, and he was given the name Ymir.

    Find Ymir, Ted. The father of all frost giants will make a wonderful contribution when you and Smokey reveal the truth to the world.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #85 - August 18, 2015, 07:42 AM

    Go on then, show me how dust/sand forms rock using their own gravity.

    Show me that and I'll be happy to believe in whatever revelation/book you have.  Afro
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #86 - August 18, 2015, 11:43 AM

    Wasn't it explained to you in the comments section? And what does that have to do with the polar ice caps?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #87 - August 18, 2015, 12:25 PM

    ...erm, no it wasn't actually.
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #88 - August 18, 2015, 12:31 PM

    So let's stick with the polar ice caps for now. How is the current geology wrong? And I'm hoping when you say nature you're using the word as it means, and not meaning artificial or flower or whatever other special way you mean it without telling anyone. And, since you've done it again, please reread this post.
    So Ted, I'm going to try to explain something that may help us along. The reason you've been unconvincing with your arguments is that you have no arguments. You make claims and don't back them up. I can do that as well.

    Once, many moons ago, using blood and blackest magic, I awoke an ancient, dark, great and terrible goddess from slumber, who told me secrets. This goddess told me when she ruled the Earth, nightmares walked among us, walked and danced, skewering victims in plain sight, laying their fears and worst desires out for everyone to see. They did this to make her laugh. Now nightmares are trapped inside the heads of humans, pitiful echoes of themselves. The goddess wondered whom they angered so to merit such a fate.

    And, like you, I have done nothing whatsoever to back up my claim. I might even challenge you to prove me wrong. But see, the thing is, the burden of proof isn't on you, it's on me. If I fail to convince you of my conversation with this dark goddess, then that's that. I'm not going to randomly say you don't understand such and such and then tell you to research more. That's unfairly shifting the burden of proof.

    Do you understand?


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves the exist
     Reply #89 - August 18, 2015, 12:45 PM

    What's polar ice caps got to do with geology?  Huh?

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