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 Topic: Blown away

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  • Blown away
     Reply #210 - August 07, 2015, 10:23 PM

    When I use words such as "prove", "proof", "certain", etc. I am using the meanings/definitions as described in the public dictionaries. I tend not to use personal private meanings which some deluded individuals use who think that you can't prove anything in science.


    A correct understanding of technical terms within logic and pure mathematics is hardly "personal private meanings". But then again, pseudo-profundity seems to be your forte, eh Ted?

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Blown away
     Reply #211 - August 07, 2015, 10:35 PM

    I thought you were a biblical expert... Guess not.

    John 10:30 (reading the whole chapter helps) and John 14-16. Romans, Colossians and Corinthians also covers this as well.


    John 10:30. Jesus was given authority do on earth as he pleased. He had the power to forgive, heal, destroy do whatever God has authority to do on earth which is why he said " I and the Father are one". Does that help?
  • Blown away
     Reply #212 - August 07, 2015, 10:36 PM

    One example of the authors opinion and thought:

    "20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body." John 20-21.

    Please quote the verses regarding Jesus foretelling his death and resurrection. Being a unique son of God still does not make anything but a son of God. Jesus was special. He was the Word of God. It's a huge title but still he was human.


    John 1 "The Word is God" If Jesus was the Word of God Jesus was in fact God.

    Jesus' death and resurrection. Matthew 16:21-16:28, Luke 9:22-9:27, Mark 9:30-32, Matthew 17:22-23, Matthew 20:17-19, John chapters 13 to 17.
  • Blown away
     Reply #213 - August 07, 2015, 10:41 PM

    Again you asked for a reference but did not provide any parameters regarding the source of the reference. You also asked for the dominate interpretation which is Catholic since it is the largest domination. Again you are forgetting what you were talking about in previous posts? Hilarious. Now you are objecting to the dominate interpretation as not the dominate one? Hilarious.

    Again your point is a non-argument. I would also point out that your objection to Catholic interpretation can be used against your own arguments. "You think you have the power to reinterpret revelation?" The major difference is the Catholic interpretation is centuries old and the work of many individuals vastly more qualified than you. After all you are just an anonymous person on the internet.

    Try again


    There are 1 billion people who believe Jesus is God. There are another billion who think he is not. There are around 800 million who think there are many gods. Millions from each group are doctors, scholars, engineers, philosophers, etc.

    Numbers and qualifications mean little when it comes to the truth.
  • Blown away
     Reply #214 - August 07, 2015, 10:42 PM

    John 10:30. Jesus was given authority do on earth as he pleased. He had the power to forgive, heal, destroy do whatever God has authority to do on earth which is why he said " I and the Father are one". Does that help?


    Irreverent. You asked for a passage in which Jesus said he and God were one. If you read the whole passage you will note that Jesus's opponents accepted the statement that He is God, John 10:33 and called it blasphemy. To which Jesus rebutted in 34-39.  

    Try again.
  • Blown away
     Reply #215 - August 07, 2015, 10:44 PM

    John 1 "The Word is God" If Jesus was the Word of God Jesus was in fact God.


    Jesus never said it. The author said it.
  • Blown away
     Reply #216 - August 07, 2015, 10:47 PM

    There are 1 billion people who believe Jesus is God. There are another billion who think he is not. There are around 800 million who think there are many gods. Millions from each group are doctors, scholars, engineers, philosophers, etc.

    Numbers and qualifications mean little when it comes to the truth.


    Wrong, there are around 2 billion Christians, most of which believe in Jesus as God. About half are Catholics making their interpretation the dominate one. We are talking about interpretation within Christianity not external views. You argument is also a fallacy, ad populum, thus is irrelevant. The vast majority of your support is from people that are not experts in Biblical scholarship thus their opinion does not matter. You also refuted your own argument with your last line, "Numbers and qualifications mean little when it comes to the truth."

    Try again.
  • Blown away
     Reply #217 - August 07, 2015, 10:49 PM

    Jesus never said it. The author said it.


    Which is the only source even remotely contemporary to Jesus. Beside if you dismiss the Bible as a source which can be used you have just, again, tossed in the towel by discarding the only source we have. Hilarious and again refuting your own previous arguments. After all did you not say


    Quote
    I accept the specific words of Jesus in the books of Mark, Matthew, John and Luke. I'm skeptical of the opinions and thoughts of the writers of the books though and don't consider them to be divine or divinely inspired. Hope that makes sense.


    Likewise I can use the same argument to dismiss your own views. "the author said that not Jesus"

    You are so inconsistent it is sad, but still hilarious.
  • Blown away
     Reply #218 - August 07, 2015, 10:52 PM

    Irreverent. You asked for a passage in which Jesus said he and God were one. If you read the whole passage you will note that Jesus's opponents accepted the statement that He is God, John 10:33 and called it blasphemy. To which Jesus rebutted in 34-39.  

    Try again.


    "34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?" John 34-36

    Jesus clearly clarifies that he claimed to be "God's Son" which clearly means someone to whom the word of God came as stated by Jesus when he says "35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came".

  • Blown away
     Reply #219 - August 07, 2015, 10:56 PM

    Irrelevant in light of the following verses

    Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

    He challenged them by his work.

    You are cherry picking and ignoring the follow verses which renders your cherry picking wrong.

    Try again.
  • Blown away
     Reply #220 - August 07, 2015, 10:57 PM

    Wrong, there are around 2 billion Christians, most of which believe in Jesus as God. About half are Catholics making their interpretation the dominate one. We are talking about interpretation within Christianity not external views. You argument is also a fallacy, ad populum, thus is irrelevant. The vast majority of your support is from people that are not experts in Biblical scholarship thus their opinion does not matter. You also refuted your own argument with your last line, "Numbers and qualifications mean little when it comes to the truth."

    Try again.


    My arguments are totally logical. You don't have to do mental gymnastics to understand the trinity and why God would want to come to earth to get crucified, etc, etc. Scholars are experts on the books they read they are not scholars on the truth. If it's found that the Bible is fake then the scholars research and understanding is worthless are your opinions.
  • Blown away
     Reply #221 - August 07, 2015, 11:00 PM

    Nope, cherry picking is fallacious reasoning. I proved this by mentioning the part you left out. Citing a group of non-experts as authorities is an argument from false authority. Both are errors in logic. Go look up both on your wiki....

    Again dismissing the Bible you just attempted to use as part of your own argument. Thus you have just contradicted yourself and refuted your own argument based on the Bible.
  • Blown away
     Reply #222 - August 07, 2015, 11:00 PM

    Quote from: Ted
    ...logical.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Blown away
     Reply #223 - August 07, 2015, 11:01 PM

    I will be back later tonight or tomorrow. I am on the West Coast of Canada so there could be a huge time difference between us. Until later, peace.
  • Blown away
     Reply #224 - August 07, 2015, 11:02 PM



    That's my line!
  • Blown away
     Reply #225 - August 07, 2015, 11:03 PM

    ooopps
  • Blown away
     Reply #226 - August 07, 2015, 11:06 PM

    Irrelevant in light of the following verses

    Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
    He challenged them by his work.

    You are cherry picking and ignoring the follow verses which renders your cherry picking wrong.

    Try again.



    Jesus is simply saying telling his Jewish opponents to look at his works and not himself in order to be convinced that he is a prophet of God. Jesus is saying don't take my word for it look at the miracles I am doing to convince yourselves I am doing as God commands since no one could do those miracles except for God. It's the same with all the prophets of God. They simply did as God commanded them to. The Quran repeatedly says "Obey God and obey His Messenger". When you're obeying the command given to the messenger you are obeying God. You're not obeying a mere human being which a messenger is.
  • Blown away
     Reply #227 - August 07, 2015, 11:10 PM

    I will be back later tonight or tomorrow. I am on the West Coast of Canada so there could be a huge time difference between us. Until later, peace.


    No problem. Peace.
  • Blown away
     Reply #228 - August 07, 2015, 11:52 PM

    A few years ago I read an X-Men fanfic which had Charles Xavier sent back in time. Met Jesus. Turns out the real explanation of his powers is that he was a mutant.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blown away
     Reply #229 - August 08, 2015, 12:30 AM

    I read this book a long time ago claiming that the Garden of Eden was in fact a contained environment. That the first "chosen people' were alien forms seeded here (thrown out of the spaceship Eden), and the "daughters of man" were the natural species of Earth. That this is why the years of the first "chosen people" in Genesis get shorter and shorter, as they intermarry with the "daughters of man".
    I like the mutant thing just as much.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Blown away
     Reply #230 - August 08, 2015, 12:32 AM

    That actually fits with the X-Men mythos. It was the Celestials that first manipulated early man to give the mutant gene, if I remember correctly. That was cannon right?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blown away
     Reply #231 - August 08, 2015, 12:39 AM

    Well I did warn that I can be arrogant.

    The Jewish priesthood wanted him gone because he claimed to be a prophet of God and the Messiah. They saw no evidence of this and asked him to show them some miracles so he could prove it to them. But Jesus deliberately didn't. He told them to go and ask the people who witnessed his miracles. It was the Jews who lauded over their positions, the ones who took pride in being Jews and considering others to be inferior, the ones who had no heart who hated Jesus. The other Jews and non Jews had no issue with him and most loved his teachings. The crucifixion of Jesus was meant to happen so that the will and the hearts of the misguided Jews could be exposed. Ironically they honoured prophets of the OT which had been persecuted and killed for preaching righteousness yet they did exactly the same thing to Jesus (or they thought they killed him since as a believer in the Quran I can't accept the Jews killed him or crucified him).

    When you ask "If all law comes from Quran then what do you propose we do about all that is not covered in Quran" you are thinking like the Jews of the priesthood. Try to understand what Jesus preached, what the Quran teaches, what the prophet Mohammed went through and the other prophets of God who suffered. Every person is created with a sense of right and wrong, compassion, kindness, etc. Which is why you don't need revelation to go into detail about what is right and wrong and how to behave. Which is why atheists can be just as kind, caring, selfless as a devout believer.

    Revelation from God contains guidance and knowledge of the unseen as well as support and warnings. Use it to soften your heart and become a better person.




    If I am naturally endowed with a sense of right and wrong, why does the Quran advocate wife beating, rape, and slavery? Such goes against every natural sense of justice. Those things are inexcusable.

    First you claim that Jesus was perfectly following the laws of Judaic priests and then you admit he was defiant of the priesthood and claimed prophethood AND denied the superiority of the Chosen People. Which is it? He followed the law, or he did not?

    Why would a book containing so much hatred and violence be an effective means of softening the heart? The us versus them mentality found in Semitic traditions have done no favors for mankind through the centuries. Don't you think an omnipotent God could have found a better means of bringing peace to humankind? This is a miserable attempt.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Blown away
     Reply #232 - August 08, 2015, 12:48 AM

    Quote
    AND denied the superiority of the Chosen People

    What part is it where Jesus has a mother begging him to heal her daughter and he says he came to help the people of Israel, not dogs? I forget.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blown away
     Reply #233 - August 08, 2015, 12:49 AM

    That actually fits with the X-Men mythos. It was the Celestials that first manipulated early man to give the mutant gene, if I remember correctly. That was cannon right?


    Huh. No, I did not know that, I cannot confirm it! But I think I ought to get that in book form and read it to the children!

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Blown away
     Reply #234 - August 08, 2015, 12:50 AM

    What part is it where Jesus has a mother begging him to heal her daughter and he says he came to help the people of Israel, not dogs? I forget.


    I don't know but I remember there was more than one incident mentioned.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Blown away
     Reply #235 - August 08, 2015, 12:52 AM

    The one I'm thinking of is where she said "Even a dog gets crumbs/scraps from it's master's table" and Jesus said "Woman you have great faith" and healed her daughter.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Blown away
     Reply #236 - August 08, 2015, 12:57 AM


    "20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body." John 20-21.

    Please quote the verses regarding Jesus foretelling his death and resurrection.


    You....you just quoted one. Because the fact of the matter is the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and has not been rebuilt, not in 3 days, not in 30 days, not in 300 years. The reason why John, the last of the gospels to be written, said that the temple was his body is that the early Christians did not believe that. They believed that Jesus was going to return very quickly to rebuild the temple, kick Roman ass, and rule the world. That's why they have Jesus saying stuff like "Some of you standing here will not taste death until the kingdom of heaven comes with power" and shit. But that didn't happen, and by the time John was written, it was clear it wouldn't happen, so everything got reframed.

    Also, in the gospel of Matthew, almost everything Jesus says is a lie. Everything in the first 16 chapters is lies, it's only in the last verses of chapter 16 that he decides to tell anyone any truth, then starting in chapter 17 he tells some people the truth while still lying to everyone else. Each gospel represents an entirely different school of first (and early second) century Christianity, and is colored by that fact. The author of Mark, the first gospel, really believed that the destruction of the temple, which he had just witnessed, meant that the time of the messiah was at hand. That's why his gospel ends abruptly with the tomb being found empty, and nothing is said about the resurrected Jesus (everything after 16:9 was added later): the writer believed that Jesus was going to show up and start fucking people up, and so there was no need to write about it. Luke and Matthew were written a little later. Matthew was a gnostic gospel and didn't believe in following the teachings of Jesus or of the Jewish law, just knowing him. The way to be saved, according to the author, was to know Jesus in a deep mystical sense, not to do anything. Doing was a distraction from knowing.

    Luke's author came from a different school of thought, that the important thing was making it sound true, tying it to reality. Matthew's author didn't care about tying it to reality; when he says "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets...." in the first few chapters, he's deliberately lying about what the prophets said to make you throw up your hands in disgust and walk away. Luke's author, on the other hand, tells you he's a historian. He works hard to establish that he's spent a lot of time and energy researching and interviewing people. He makes a point of dropping names of people and places. His religion is a lot like yours, it's based largely on convincing people that it's real. And as with any issue in life, you can find this perfectly elucidated on star trek:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zFOdQYmTrk

    The religion you created, and that the author of Luke created, is real in your minds. And you are trying to convince others it is real; you are the dreamer and the dream.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Blown away
     Reply #237 - August 08, 2015, 01:29 AM

    If I am naturally endowed with a sense of right and wrong, why does the Quran advocate wife beating, rape, and slavery? Such goes against every natural sense of justice. Those things are inexcusable.

    First you claim that Jesus was perfectly following the laws of Judaic priests and then you admit he was defiant of the priesthood and claimed prophethood AND denied the superiority of the Chosen People. Which is it? He followed the law, or he did not?

    Why would a book containing so much hatred and violence be an effective means of softening the heart? The us versus them mentality found in Semitic traditions have done no favors for mankind through the centuries. Don't you think an omnipotent God could have found a better means of bringing peace to humankind? This is a miserable attempt.


    The verse about wife beating is a bit contentious. Some translators translate it as to beat lightly. Which is what I would agree with. One reason being that the wife of Job angered him and he vowed to beat her up but God told him to take some grass and beat his wife with that so that he would not break his vow. Also some of the wives of the prophet Mohammed weren't behaving and God told them that if they didn't the prophet would leave them and get better wives. If it were a care of God wanting to make a law to beat wives it would have been mentioned in the other verses. The lightly beating of a wife is symbolic rather than meant to something violent. The Quran allows men and women to divorce each other so there are ways out for each party rather than having to resort to violence.

    Rape - I don't know where in the Quran it says that that is OK.
    Slavery - slavery is allowed by God. But there are big misconceptions about it.  You'd need to understand more about how it started off historically to get a better understanding of why God allows it. In the Quran God clearly tells the believers to do their best to free slaves either our of their own money or by letting the slave work themselves out of it.

    Jesus followed the law. He was defiant of the priesthood in that he told them they were just doing it for show and for the love of impressing people as to show people how holy and pious they were. But on the inside they were greedy, dishonest, materialistic and lacked compassion. The Chosen People are not meant to consider themselves superior to others just as Muslims are ordered not consider themselves superior to others. The Chosen People and Muslims are to serve God by going out and working righteousness for no reward from anyone. Their reward for their good works is to be expected from God in the hereafter. They are not allowed to boast of their good works. Rather they are advised to keep their good works between God.

    Any verses regarding hate and violence need to be considered within their context. But basically as Muslims we are OK to hate those who practice evil, those who persecute us simply because we say we believe in God and want to be clean and good. But if those who hate us repent and believe we are to forgive and accept them as brothers in faith. When the prophet Mohammed conquered Mecca there was no violence or hate even though the pagan Meccans had tortured some of the believers and persecuted them for many years.
  • Blown away
     Reply #238 - August 08, 2015, 01:40 AM



    You....you just quoted one. Because the fact of the matter is the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and has not been rebuilt, not in 3 days, not in 30 days, not in 300 years. The reason why John, the last of the gospels to be written, said that the temple was his body is that the early Christians did not believe that. They believed that Jesus was going to return very quickly to rebuild the temple, kick Roman ass, and rule the world. That's why they have Jesus saying stuff like "Some of you standing here will not taste death until the kingdom of heaven comes with power" and shit. But that didn't happen, and by the time John was written, it was clear it wouldn't happen, so everything got reframed.

    Also, in the gospel of Matthew, almost everything Jesus says is a lie. Everything in the first 16 chapters is lies, it's only in the last verses of chapter 16 that he decides to tell anyone any truth, then starting in chapter 17 he tells some people the truth while still lying to everyone else. Each gospel represents an entirely different school of first (and early second) century Christianity, and is colored by that fact. The author of Mark, the first gospel, really believed that the destruction of the temple, which he had just witnessed, meant that the time of the messiah was at hand. That's why his gospel ends abruptly with the tomb being found empty, and nothing is said about the resurrected Jesus (everything after 16:9 was added later): the writer believed that Jesus was going to show up and start fucking people up, and so there was no need to write about it. Luke and Matthew were written a little later. Matthew was a gnostic gospel and didn't believe in following the teachings of Jesus or of the Jewish law, just knowing him. The way to be saved, according to the author, was to know Jesus in a deep mystical sense, not to do anything. Doing was a distraction from knowing.

    Luke's author came from a different school of thought, that the important thing was making it sound true, tying it to reality. Matthew's author didn't care about tying it to reality; when he says "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets...." in the first few chapters, he's deliberately lying about what the prophets said to make you throw up your hands in disgust and walk away. Luke's author, on the other hand, tells you he's a historian. He works hard to establish that he's spent a lot of time and energy researching and interviewing people. He makes a point of dropping names of people and places. His religion is a lot like yours, it's based largely on convincing people that it's real. And as with any issue in life, you can find this perfectly elucidated on star trek:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zFOdQYmTrk

    The religion you created, and that the author of Luke created, is real in your minds. And you are trying to convince others it is real; you are the dreamer and the dream.


    I don't think you have been paying attention to what I have been saying.
  • Blown away
     Reply #239 - August 08, 2015, 01:43 AM

    The post of mine you quoted was in response to three.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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