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Theme Changer

 Topic: Blown away

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  • Blown away
     Reply #180 - August 07, 2015, 03:58 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 09:33 AM
    It's most likely because you can't see the evidence of God. There's nothing tangible which you can refer to. Anyone can make up books and words and say it's from God. Anyone can claim to be a prophet. When some people say that everything is created by God it just doesn't make sense to an atheist.

    I read your introduction. I too read the Maariful commentary. I've also read Ibn Kathir, I can't say I was too impressed or enlightened. There are some useful, interesting parts in terms of historical context and things you could relate to but I think it could be improved.


    Well, if there's nothing tangible there, and no evidence as to the existence of god, why do people believe? Even more interestingly, why would people center their lives with such certainty and zeal around such a belief, which would at very best have tenuous support, and none that's particularly rational?

    Without evidence for supernatural claims, they can be dismissed outright. The problem with organized religion, and especially Islam as it is commonly practiced, is that it does not leave room for such a dismissal and diversity of thought from a young age. Everything about Islam, from rituals to historical narrative is tailored to promote conformity. And beyond that, there is the oftentimes denied and unspoken reality of retribution and shame which accompanies apostasy and silences the dissident via fear.

    Hence, this forum to me makes perfect sense, and I'm interested to know what exactly "blew you away" about it? In light of the lack of evidence of any Islamic supernatural claims, and Islam's inability to accommodate dissension, such forums would be the natural product, no?
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Blown away
     Reply #181 - August 07, 2015, 04:03 PM
    There's also nothing in any honest commentary or tafsir of the Quran that can lend helpful context to the actual words written in the Quran. It's a book from an earlier time that has not aged well in a modern context. While maintaining textual integrity, it cannot cope with the changing circumstances of time.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Blown away
     Reply #182 - August 07, 2015, 08:47 PM
    Still waiting for Ted to prove the Bible wrong and Christians follow their desires.

    And he wonders why I dismiss his empty claims. Although I am sure some how it is my fault for his failures to back up what he claims
  • Blown away
     Reply #183 - August 07, 2015, 08:52 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 12:07 PM
    The Jews at the time of Moses witnessed many miracles. Did it make them better persons? No it didn't. They openly disobeyed God. Only those whose hearts truly appreciated God obeyed him and were patient and persevering.  We use revelations and teachings to understand them and practice them. God teaches and guides you gently. He doesn't expect you to become a wonderful person overnight or to truly believe in him after reading a few verses. It's going to take time for the vast majority of us. We will be given good things and bad things, trials and tribulations to make us think and discover who we really are.


    Moses is a myth. Archaeology has moved beyond Moses, the Exodus and Conquest of Canaan. Not a single credible relevant field expert accepts the Biblical narrative as even close to fact.
  • Blown away
     Reply #184 - August 07, 2015, 08:58 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 07, 2015, 08:47 PM
    Still waiting for Ted to prove the Bible wrong and Christians follow their desires.

    And he wonders why I dismiss his empty claims. Although I am sure some how it is my fault for his failures to back up what he claims


    First you need to have the correct beliefs in God otherwise what's the point of debating revelation? So do you believe in God if so what are your beliefs?

    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Blown away
     Reply #185 - August 07, 2015, 09:00 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 07, 2015, 11:38 AM
    According to theology it was the Romans, but who knows if he even existed.


    According to history it was the Romans, even if the history is very very weak. We have one independent source confirming this which is Josephus. We have zero sources confirming the Quran version.
  • Blown away
     Reply #186 - August 07, 2015, 09:02 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 08:58 PM
    First you need to have the correct beliefs in God otherwise what's the point of debating revelation? So do you believe in God if so what are your beliefs?




    Sorry that does not fly. You said Christians follows their desires and the Bible is wrong. You must show how the Bible is wrong based on its own internal narratives, lessons, etc. Proclaiming it wrong based on an external religion and faith is useless. It also happens to be the one you follow thus confirmation bias. Neither are arguments but empty statements, again.

    I can use your horrible argument as well. "You must have the correct belief in God to see that Islam is a false religion"
  • Blown away
     Reply #187 - August 07, 2015, 09:15 PM
    And just where did I say the Bible was wrong?

    The vast majority of trinitarian Christians are blatantly following their own made up desires. There's no such thing as the trinity in the Bible. Someone with the most basic level of reading comprehension could have understood that. So if you haven't made the effort to actually read the Bible to discover that then is there any point in me pointing out the obvious points. How will you understand the deeper issues? I've got time for those who genuinely want to discuss and debate but not those who want to be spoon fed.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Blown away
     Reply #188 - August 07, 2015, 09:16 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 07, 2015, 09:00 PM
    According to history it was the Romans, even if the history is very very weak. We have one independent source confirming this which is Josephus. We have zero sources confirming the Quran version.


    The Josephus thing is fabricated. No historians deny that it is fabricated, the discussion is simply whether it's entirely fabricated or just mostly fabricated. I tend to think entirely fabricated.

    Back to my earlier question to Ted, what books of the Christian new testament do you accept as authentic, and which do you reject?
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Blown away
     Reply #189 - August 07, 2015, 09:22 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 06, 2015, 09:59 PM
    Please send me this "dominant interpretation" and I'll show you why it's incorrect. Many Christians are simply following their made up desires rather than the Gospels of Jesus.


    The interpretation you claim is wrong is based on the New Testament thus you are claiming the Bible is wrong. Also by being Muslim Jesus as the son of God, found in the bible, is also wrong. Ergo the Bible is wrong.
  • Blown away
     Reply #190 - August 07, 2015, 09:23 PM
    Quote from: galfromusa on August 07, 2015, 09:16 PM
    The Josephus thing is fabricated. No historians deny that it is fabricated, the discussion is simply whether it's entirely fabricated or just mostly fabricated. I tend to think entirely fabricated.

    Back to my earlier question to Ted, what books of the Christian new testament do you accept as authentic, and which do you reject?

    You're sounding better already?
    Hi
  • Blown away
     Reply #191 - August 07, 2015, 09:26 PM
    Quote from: galfromusa on August 07, 2015, 09:16 PM
    The Josephus thing is fabricated. No historians deny that it is fabricated, the discussion is simply whether it's entirely fabricated or just mostly fabricated. I tend to think entirely fabricated.

    Back to my earlier question to Ted, what books of the Christian new testament do you accept as authentic, and which do you reject?


    No, it is partly fabricated but the execution of Jesus is the part that is accepted as authentic. Keep in mind I references the death of lines not the whole passage.
  • Blown away
     Reply #192 - August 07, 2015, 09:31 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 09:15 PM


    The vast majority of trinitarian Christians are blatantly following their own made up desires. There's no such thing in the Bible. Someone with the most basic level of reading comprehension could have understood that. So if you haven't made the effort to actually read the Bible to discover that then is there any point in me pointing out the obvious points. How will you understand the deeper issues? I've got time for those who genuinely want to discuss and debate but not those who want to be spoon fed.


    Empty claim backed by nothing but authoritative blabber, as if I took you as an authority of anything Cheesy. Provide evidence of your claim. You are merely putting up a cop-out blame me for your lack of arguments for your claims. You invoke a shifting burden of proof fallacy and ad hominem. Try again
  • Blown away
     Reply #193 - August 07, 2015, 09:34 PM
    Ah Christians just have a fetish for things in three so they just decide they're going to believe in a God in three persons. I mean they all know that God is not a trinity, but their passion for triangles and other tri-based paraphernalia just really means so much for them that they are willing to risk an eternity of torture.

    It certainly doesn't have to do with the fact that their holy books have Jesus saying things like "I and the father are one," "Before Abraham was, I am," as well as containing passages about how the logos (Jesus) was there "in the beginning and the logos was God, and the logos became flesh in Jesus" (paraphrased from John 1). Or maybe revelation when Jesus says "I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last" which is a name God goes by in the Old Testament. Or that believers are to be "baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy
    Spirit."

    I could easily keep going as Christians clearly do derive their Trinitarian conception of God from what they understand to be scripture. Sure, there are parts of scripture that are difficult to reconcile with a Trinitarian conception of God, but you'd have to strain even harder to interpret certain passages from John, Revelation, and the epistles of Paul to deny that Jesus is to be identified with God in the Bible.

    Emphatically though, the Bible does not support Islam unless you rely on one of those unsupported arguments where the bible was originally Islamic, but became corrupted. There is not only no evidence for that notion, but plenty of evidence to suggest it is not possible.

    You have to choose Bible, Quran, or neither. Believing in both leads to insurmountable contradictions.
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Blown away
     Reply #194 - August 07, 2015, 09:41 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 07, 2015, 09:22 PM
    The interpretation you claim is wrong is based on the New Testament thus you are claiming the Bible is wrong. Also by being Muslim Jesus as the son of God, found in the bible, is also wrong. Ergo the Bible is wrong.


    Lol. Are you serious? The Bible and it's various translations and someones understanding/interpretation of it a 2 different things. Do you not understand the difference?

    When it mentions Jesus as being the Son of God in the Bible it never means the literal son of God. There were many Sons of God. It's just a title for someone very close to God.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Blown away
     Reply #195 - August 07, 2015, 09:43 PM
    All of which counters the idea that Judaism and Christian scriptures are acceptable as per Teds previous statement. Both contain contradictions when compared to the Quran. Each is mutually exclusive thus are not compatible.
  • Blown away
     Reply #196 - August 07, 2015, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 09:41 PM
    Lol. Are you serious? The Bible and it's various translations and someones understanding/interpretation of it a 2 different things. Do you not understand the difference?


    I never brought up translation. More so many of the current translation are based on the earliest Greek manuscripts so are accurate translations. Your argument is a dead end.

    Quote
    When it mentions Jesus as being the Son of God in the Bible it never means the literal son of God. There were many Sons of God. It's just a title for someone very close to God.


    Empty claims back by nothing but your own personal interpretation, which you failed to support. I would also point out this argument relies on translations, which you dismissed with your previous argument. You refuted your own arguments, hilarious.

    Try again
  • Blown away
     Reply #197 - August 07, 2015, 09:53 PM
    Quote from: galfromusa on August 07, 2015, 09:16 PM
    The Josephus thing is fabricated. No historians deny that it is fabricated, the discussion is simply whether it's entirely fabricated or just mostly fabricated. I tend to think entirely fabricated.

    Back to my earlier question to Ted, what books of the Christian new testament do you accept as authentic, and which do you reject?


    It's not a simple matter of which book of the NT is authentic. The question is more about what is the Gospel of Jesus. The main books Mark, Matthew, John and Luke are clearly accounts written by certain individuals which give personal accounts of the teachings of Jesus and some events of his life. Jesus preached the Gospel and ordered his disciples to go out and preach the Gospel. The Gospels are not the books Mark, Matthew, John and Luke themselves but rather they contain portions of the Gospel. Yo may already know this but the books are aptly called "The Gospel according to..." which makes sense.

    I accept the specific words of Jesus in the books of Mark, Matthew, John and Luke. I'm skeptical of the opinions and thoughts of the writers of the books though and don't consider them to be divine or divinely inspired. Hope that makes sense.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Blown away
     Reply #198 - August 07, 2015, 09:55 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 09:41 PM
    When it mentions Jesus as being the Son of God in the Bible it never means the literal son of God. There were many Sons of God. It's just a title for someone very close to God.


    Neither do Christians nowadays, as well as mainstream Christians in the 7th century, which means if that's what the Quran actually means, it's either attacking a straw man or wasting ink on a provincial, fringe belief
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Blown away
     Reply #199 - August 07, 2015, 09:57 PM
    So your argument is that you cherry pick based on your own personal view. The parts that you pick are based on confirmation bias with Islam. That is not an objective argument, it is subjective thus irrelevant. You just tossed in the towel and openly stated "I have no argument"

    Try again.
  • Blown away
     Reply #200 - August 07, 2015, 09:58 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 07, 2015, 09:45 PM
    I never brought up translation. More so many of the current translation are based on the earliest Greek manuscripts so are accurate translations. Your argument is a dead end.

    Empty claims back by nothing but your own personal interpretation, which you failed to support. I would also point out this argument relies on translations, which you dismissed with your previous argument. You refuted your own arguments, hilarious.

    Try again


    This is hilarious. You gave me a reference to some catholic person who wrote a piece about their interpretation of the Bible. Do you not remember? And now for some bizarre reason you are mentioning translations.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Blown away
     Reply #201 - August 07, 2015, 09:59 PM
    The Quran seems to think Jesus is an offspring while Christianity treats Jesus as part of God.
  • Blown away
     Reply #202 - August 07, 2015, 10:01 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 09:58 PM
    This is hilarious. You gave me a reference to some catholic person who wrote a piece about their interpretation of the Bible. Do you not remember? And now for some bizarre reason you are mentioning translations.


    Notice the key difference. I supplied a reference for my point while you did not. Again you mentioned translations first then proceeded to refute your own later argument based on rejecting translation, not I. You also asked for an explanation which I supplied in the reference. You did not say what references were acceptable, you left that completely open. Also the source from not just from some Catholic. It was from the Roman Catholic Church's own website.....

    Quote
    Lol. Are you serious? The Bible and it's various translations and someones understanding/interpretation of it a 2 different things. Do you not understand the difference?


    Quote
    Please send me this "dominant interpretation" and I'll show you why it's incorrect. Many Christians are simply following their made up desires rather than the Gospels of Jesus.



    Are you forgetting your own comments now then blaming me to your memory lapse. You still have not supplied a reason why it is wrong beside your subjective opinion. Hilarious.
  • Blown away
     Reply #203 - August 07, 2015, 10:04 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 07, 2015, 09:57 PM
    So your argument is that you cherry pick based on your own personal view. The parts that you pick are based on confirmation bias with Islam. That is not an objective argument, it is subjective thus irrelevant. You just tossed in the towel and openly stated "I have no argument"

    Try again.


    Well that's what you think which is understandable given your complete lack of understanding of the Bible and the Quran. If you're really after the truth then get off your ass and read the Bible and Quran properly and ask proper questions rather than talking nonsense.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Blown away
     Reply #204 - August 07, 2015, 10:06 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 07, 2015, 09:59 PM
    The Quran seems to think Jesus is an offspring while Christianity treats Jesus as part of God.


    Show me where in the Bible does Jesus say that he is part of God. If you've read the Bible it will be easy for you.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Blown away
     Reply #205 - August 07, 2015, 10:06 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 09:53 PM
    I accept the specific words of Jesus in the books of Mark, Matthew, John and Luke. I'm skeptical of the opinions and thoughts of the writers of the books though and don't consider them to be divine or divinely inspired. Hope that makes sense.


    I ask you this seriously Ted: have you read the gospels according to Mark, Luke, Matthew, and John? They are written as narratives. At no point do the authors step in and give their own opinions and thoughts. And what about when Jesus foretells his death and resurrection, talks about being the unique son of God, and equating himself with God? Those all occur within the quotes spoken by Jesus in the gospels
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Blown away
     Reply #206 - August 07, 2015, 10:14 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 07, 2015, 10:01 PM
    Also the source from not just from some Catholic. It was from the Roman Catholic Church's own website.


    So you think the Roman Catholic Church has the power to re-interpret the revelation? Well they don't and neither do the Muslims or the Jews. They can try and they do but that's their own delusional thinking. It's their life they are free to do what they want.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Blown away
     Reply #207 - August 07, 2015, 10:17 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 10:06 PM
    Show me where in the Bible does Jesus say that he is part of God. If you've read the Bible it will be easy for you.


    I thought you were a biblical expert... Guess not.

    John 10:30 (reading the whole chapter helps) and John 14-16. Romans, Colossians and Corinthians also covers this as well.
  • Blown away
     Reply #208 - August 07, 2015, 10:19 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 07, 2015, 10:14 PM
    So you think the Roman Catholic Church has the power to re-interpret the revelation? Well they don't and neither do the Muslims or the Jews. They can try and they do but that's their own delusional thinking. It's their life they are free to do what they want.


    Again you asked for a reference but did not provide any parameters regarding the source of the reference. You also asked for the dominate interpretation which is Catholic since it is the largest domination. Again you are forgetting what you were talking about in previous posts? Hilarious. Now you are objecting to the dominate interpretation as not the dominate one? Hilarious.

    Again your point is a non-argument. I would also point out that your objection to Catholic interpretation can be used against your own arguments. "You think you have the power to reinterpret revelation?" The major difference is the Catholic interpretation is centuries old and the work of many individuals vastly more qualified than you. After all you are just an anonymous person on the internet.

    Try again
  • Blown away
     Reply #209 - August 07, 2015, 10:22 PM
    Quote from: justperusing on August 07, 2015, 10:06 PM
    I ask you this seriously Ted: have you read the gospels according to Mark, Luke, Matthew, and John? They are written as narratives. At no point do the authors step in and give their own opinions and thoughts. And what about when Jesus foretells his death and resurrection, talks about being the unique son of God, and equating himself with God? Those all occur within the quotes spoken by Jesus in the gospels


    One example of the authors opinion and thought:

    "20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body." John 20-21.

    Please quote the verses regarding Jesus foretelling his death and resurrection. Being a unique son of God still does not make anything but a son of God. Jesus was special. He was the Word of God. It's a huge title but still he was human.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
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