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Theme Changer

 Topic: Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight

 (Read 2506 times)
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  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     OP - July 26, 2015, 12:08 PM

    Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight




    Quote
    Prominent thinker Richard Dawkins stepped into yet another messy debate online when he tweeted "Islam needs a feminist revolution. It will be hard. What can we do to help?" Dawkins has long been critical of all organized religions, though many have pointed out that he's overly harsh in his criticism of Islam. The question he posed above drew a heated reaction on Twitter, with some saying that Islam is inherently feminist, and others simply angry that Dawkins was commenting on the religion once again.

    Fatima Bhutto, however, pointed out what really irked us about Dawkins' statement: the fact that he is yet another man trying to explain to women how best to live their lives. In other words, he's mansplaining, and so already in the wrong — mansplaining is definitely not the feminist way


    https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins

    Lot of  Who--ish   attention seekers.........   Cheesy Cheesy

    Quote


    and more on that single tweet......
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/07/25/richard-dawkins-fails-spectacularly-on-feminism-and-islam/

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #1 - July 26, 2015, 04:17 PM

    I just had a discussion with a girl living in Pakistan. I said we should support muslim women who want to marry outside of their faith. Everyone should be free to choose their own spouse. She called me an intolerant, islamophobic bigot.

    Her view was that such women were free to leave Islam, if they wanted that freedom (of course we all know how free people are to leave Islam, especially in muslim countries).

    So I asked her if she agreed that the idea of portraying people leaving Islam should be propagated in Pakistan, to show that those who happen to leave Islam are also just normal decent human beings. In return she threw a temper tantrum, no way should any such idea as depicting ex-muslims as normal human beings, who just are not able to believe in Islam, be propagated in Pakistani media.

    So who are these "muslim women" that Fatima Bhutto speak of? Are they all in agreement of everything, supporting the same set of ideas? Dawkins made a good statement, and he did not try to explain others how to live their lives, he asked how can he help muslim women achieve equal rights.

    "Muslim women" are a diverse group of individuals, some of them don't even believe in Islam, and some just want to believe in the core message without having all the other restrictions being forced upon them. Of course Fatima Bhutto is being hailed, because Dawkins is an "islamophobe".
  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #2 - July 26, 2015, 07:52 PM

    Seems like a hypersensitive response from Butto in which she alienates a person willing to help due to outrage.
  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #3 - July 26, 2015, 08:39 PM

    She is from an uber-privileged background, and probably never was a victim of the hardships many "muslim women" have to endure. So its easy for her to dismiss an "islamophobe".

    Also Dawkins called for a feminist revolution within Islam, there is no denying there are many misogynistic practices in muslim nations, which are the direct result of Islamic teachings. Instead of admitting that certain elements within Islam are problematic and needs to be reformed ,they will rather say those practices are unislamic, and make up all sort of excuses to justify misogynistic verses such as 4:34 for example.

    Even highly educated muslim women will claim that 4:34 is actually liberating for muslim women, when it clearly states that men are allowed to hit women, and it addresses men, not women. But thats what thorough childhood indoctrination does for you I guess.
  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #4 - July 26, 2015, 08:53 PM

    The famous 4:34 verse which according to muslim women means "caress lightly"  Roll Eyes
  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #5 - July 26, 2015, 10:28 PM

    It's really amazing how people can choose  to listen or twist certain verses of the quran and ignore the bad parts. There's really nothing wrong with what Dawkins is saying, Islam clearly has misogynistic practices, but yet again, due to childhood indoctrination and extreme bias, a lady like Bhutto has a butthurt response. Oh well I'm just going to 'caress lightly' my girlfriend.  Roll Eyes

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
  • Re: Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #6 - July 26, 2015, 10:53 PM

    Instead of admitting that certain elements within Islam are problematic

    Not sure thats even true of most christians, after centuries of reform. I don't think significant reinterpretation is a deliberate process. Rather people are actually putting their values into their scripture, to which there is often a limit depending on the circumstances.
  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #7 - July 26, 2015, 11:17 PM

    She is from an uber-privileged background, and probably never was a victim of the hardships many "muslim women" have to endure. So its easy for her to dismiss an "islamophobe".

    Also Dawkins called for a feminist revolution within Islam, there is no denying there are many misogynistic practices in muslim nations, which are the direct result of Islamic teachings. Instead of admitting that certain elements within Islam are problematic and needs to be reformed ,they will rather say those practices are unislamic, and make up all sort of excuses to justify misogynistic verses such as 4:34 for example.

    Even highly educated muslim women will claim that 4:34 is actually liberating for muslim women, when it clearly states that men are allowed to hit women, and it addresses men, not women. But thats what thorough childhood indoctrination does for you I guess.


    I've never heard Muslim women say that. A lot of them try to behave as if that surah doesn't exist, same with polygamy.

    Fatima Bhutto has been critical of Islam in the past. I know she did an apologist speech before but If you follow her on twitter she often tweets underhanded criticism esp. in regards to women in Islam.
  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #8 - July 27, 2015, 08:21 AM

    I have not read her work, but I would not be surprised if she is in contention with a lot of the misogynistic practices of Islam. But then I don't get why she would dismiss Dawkins like that. Perhaps she is trying to score brownie points within the muslim world?

    As for 4:34 and polygamy, I've actually seen highly educated muslim women defend those verses. 4:34 is defended by saying the strike part is last resort, and you are supposed to hit "lightly", and polygamy is defended by making up all sort of excuses, taking care of emotional and physical needs of widows yada yada. Some of them even defend Mohammed and his companions raping female captives of war.

    Funniest bit about 4:34 being defended is that 4:34 actually addresses men, and how their conduct towards women should be. Just like all other verses in the Quran. Quran never addresses women the way it addresses men. There is not a shadow of doubt that the Quran was written by men, for men. Which just makes the whole case of "islamic feminisim" a tad bit ironic. There is no feminism within Islam, unless reforms are introduced, which requires the misogynistic teachings to unequivocally be accepted as misogynistic, and not utilization of some sort of warped religious logic to declare those teachings "unislamic".
  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #9 - July 27, 2015, 10:55 AM

    http://fatimabhutto.com.pk/
    Quote





    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #10 - July 27, 2015, 11:13 AM

    Not sure thats even true of most christians, after centuries of reform. I don't think significant reinterpretation is a deliberate process. Rather people are actually putting their values into their scripture, to which there is often a limit depending on the circumstances.


    That is true. Many christians (in the west) have adopted a mellowed approach to religion, and therefore we have cultural christians, who might never have really read the bible, nor care about what the bible says. They just pretend their scripture is preaching the same thing as the secular humanist values found in their societies.

    Some muslims are trying to do the same, by preaching that Mohammed was a champion of feminism for example, but yet most of them can't get away from him marrying a nine year old, verses like 4:34, women inheriting half of men, women not having the same right to divorce as men, polygamy etc. They will just use some sort of warped Islamic logic to sugercoat those problematic aspects of Islam.

    So there is either one of two I guess,

    1. Muslims at large adopt a similar mellowed approach to religion, where religion doesn't get to dictate all aspects of life for muslims. They keep religion out of sociopolitics, because that is a sure recipe for disaster anyway.

    2. Muslims at large acknowledge that there are problematic aspects of Islam, which need to be acknowledged and dealt with, instead of sugercoating them.

    In a country like Pakistan, either of two unfortunately seem quite hard to achieve.
  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #11 - July 27, 2015, 12:33 PM

    That is true. Many christians (in the west) have adopted a mellowed approach to religion, and therefore we have cultural christians, who might never have really read the bible, nor care about what the bible says. They just pretend their scripture is preaching the same thing as the secular humanist values found in their societies.................

    hello Roberto40., I wonder whether you have any idea/hypothesis "Why Many christians (]in the west or even in East) have adopted a mellowed approach to religion"? Off course they do proselytize their religious view but still .. They just go to the extent Christ Died for your sins and you are saved so you can continue doing sins

    Anyways I am of the opinion that is because of this nature of narration of the  stories of  Christ by Christians in churches. Would you agree with that?  Frankly speaking the presence  or absence of this god/Allah super duper controller of this universe makes no difference to these religious proselytizers and to  millions of  their followers.  All the these so-called religion  based societies and their structure depends upon  not only their books/scriptures but the stories told on these heroes/main characters of these religions. Because these societies in the past and even  today thrive on the stories of these heros  and hero worship...

    And..And....  I tell you STORIES BASED OF PROPHET OF ISLAM PROPAGATED IN MOSQUES  SUCKS.. Unfortunately that stupid hadith even to some extent Quran corroborate those stories and makes that impossible to  change  the character of final Prophet of Islam "Muhammad"

    That is the fundamental problem in Islam and that is my opinion..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight
     Reply #12 - July 28, 2015, 04:35 PM

    Yeez, I do agree that the difference between the character of Jesus and Mo, does make it harder to reform Islam. Because Jesus never did much of what Mo did, but I'm pretty sure Jesus too had some actions which we today view as morally wrong. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable would like to comment on that?
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