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Theme Changer

 Topic: divorce and children

 (Read 6334 times)
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  • divorce and children
     OP - May 19, 2015, 03:25 PM

    Hi I was a revert to Islam, and 8 years later after discovering Ibn Ishaqs sirat rasool allah I have come to understand the truth about Muhammad and completely lost my faith. The problem is my wife is Moroccan and culturally and emotionallying attached to Islam. To the point that she becomes histerical and starts screaming if I try to present rational arguments against islam. She is pious to the extent of blindness. Anything against Quranic and prophet is all lies made up by Jews to fool people of week faith like myself.

    The biggest problem is that we have 3 very small children together ages 5, 3, and just 3 months. If I declare myself non Muslim then she has to leave me. I still care for her and obviously adore my 3 kids we have. I am scared that I will lose my kids if we get divorced. Worst than that I am terrified that she will brainwash the kids and turn them against me as she hates kafirs. She is so prejudiced against anyone who is not muslim.

    I just do not know what to do. I don't want to lose my family but I can't continue to live a lie endlessly. With Ramadan coming I have pressure for fasting and tirawee prayer etc etc

    Has anyone been through this and have some good advice or contacts for councilling etc please. I live in Leicester. Thank you.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #1 - May 19, 2015, 03:34 PM

    First off, welcome.

    Secondly, although I was fortunate not to have kids involved and I got the best possible outcome for my situation, I have also been in a relationship where my spouse was fiercely religious and couldn't entertain criticism, and I remember the frustration and the anxiety and the loneliness.  far away hug And I think quite a few people here have been in a similar situation, themselves, and probably much more similar to yours than mine was.

    Do you intend to get a divorce, then? I'm not in the UK, so I can't speak much about your resources or protections available to make sure you keep hold of your kids. Hopefully someone else will be able to point you in the right direction. I do know that, in the states, you can argue that your partner is a flight risk for your children in custody disputes, although the protection you wind up getting here is often ineffective.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #2 - May 19, 2015, 03:40 PM

    Welcome lightbringer,  parrot bunny Please accept this offering of sacred CEMB animals. grin12

    As someone who was once in an extremely similar situation, my advice to you would be to have a little patience. A lot of patience, actually. A hell of a lot. I know that the shock of being thrust into your newly discovered lack of faith is likely pushing you to want to scream it from the rooftops, but the fact of the matter is that once you do that, and once all the dust settles and you get it all out of your system, very little of your core personality will  change.  And you’ll be left living with the heartache of having your family torn apart.

    A divorce may be inevitable somewhere down the line, but I advise you to take it slowly. If I were you, which is really my way of saying if I had it to do over again, I would just gradually become less religious and tell your wife that you are interpreting the faith differently as you grow older. Try not to “convince” her, as these sorts of arguments are typically futile and only inflame the situation. She may change too, but only at her own rate. The fact that your wife wants to deny all of the bad things attributed to the Prophet means that she is probably a decent person on the inside, suffering from years of indoctrination that can be impossible to shake. Faith is not usually a rational decision, no matter how much people try to claim that it is.

    Spend this time with your kids. Love them. Hold them. Play with them. Teach them. That’s truly the most important thing for you to worry about right now. And you will certainly miss that opportunity if it is suddenly snatched from you.  If you and your wife find that your lack of religiosity means you’ll have to break up, then try to do that as peacefully as possible. Plan it out. Find a good lawyer. There really is no need to rush.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #3 - May 19, 2015, 03:57 PM

    What Happymurtad said. I couldn't put it better.

    I also was in a similar position and my wife was also Moroccan and I had young kids.

    Please re-read what HM said. He is spot on and both he and I speak from experience.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #4 - May 19, 2015, 05:32 PM

    Welcome lightbringer,  parrot bunny Please accept this offering of sacred CEMB animals. grin12


    Ahem.


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • divorce and children
     Reply #5 - May 19, 2015, 08:10 PM

    Only the Jedi may bestow the magical cemb unicorn of love.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #6 - May 19, 2015, 09:58 PM

    That is a tough situation and there is some good advice above. I hope you can come to some accommodation with your wife. You should still be a part of your kids lives whatever happens  - you at least have the law on your side there, but I hope it doesn't come to that.
     bunny
  • divorce and children
     Reply #7 - May 19, 2015, 10:45 PM

    Thanks everyone for your kind welcome and heartfelt advice. I look forward to future conversation with you good people and I am sorry for your troubles too. I hope that time delivers you the respect and lives you deserve for standing up for the truth with dignity. Well done!
  • divorce and children
     Reply #8 - May 19, 2015, 10:49 PM

    Welcome to the forum lightbringer, have a rabbit!  bunny

    Sorry to hear what you're going through, although I can't really offer any advice to your situation, I hope it turns out well for you and your kids.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • divorce and children
     Reply #9 - May 19, 2015, 11:01 PM

    Welcome Lightbringer...

    sorry to hear about the situation with your wife..  


    X
  • divorce and children
     Reply #10 - May 19, 2015, 11:15 PM

    I really appreciate the advice most of which are conclusions I arrived at myself also. Unfortunately I have been playing the patient no rush game for the last year but my wife isn't playing too. In fact she has brought round half the sheikh in Leicester to get me back on the straight path. She is scared that Allah will punish her for staying married to me.
    I am like you suggested dragging it out as long as I can but she keeps putting on the thumb screws and hounds me over wudu and praying now she is laying down the law for Ramadan. I  feel like a fraud and I just can't stand to be in the mosque now I feel like a liar to myself. The things you do for your kids eh.
    Reality is that life isn't sustainable in this situation from my wife's viewpoint. She wants me pious again and taking her off to haj praying in masjid etc etc
    I think I need to be realistic and accept divorce is inevitable short of a miracle and my wife coming around to see logic.
    I agree it is probably futile but in a last ditch attempt has anyone got any suggestions how to get through to my wife?
  • divorce and children
     Reply #11 - May 19, 2015, 11:27 PM

    Yep its a lot harder for a muslim man to hide his lack of religion, a woman can hide hers behind closed doors as she is not obligated to pray at the mosque or have a close nit sisterhood keeping watch over her every move.   I cannot think of any suggestion to soften your wife up, she must be very traditional, like my ex, there was no way i could get him to see my point of view so we parted after so much fighting..  Please don't take the fighting and arguing route, for your childrens sake..     maybe someone else here can offer you better advice..

    it all depends what kind of lifestyle you are aiming for, do you want to completely apostacize or do you want to live as a half practising or non practising muslim ? 
  • divorce and children
     Reply #12 - May 19, 2015, 11:46 PM

    I wound up breaking the husband down over the course of a year of arguing and today he's left the religion and hasn't yet looked back. However, all I did was push the right buttons. If he didn't have those buttons to press it would've been impossible. And it usually is. So my typical advice would be to not even try, but it sounds like you're at a desperate point right now, anyway.

    If it's not possible to just keep up appearances or talk to her and form an agreement to keep this up for the kids, another option is just trying to buy yourself some freedom. You can't get her to come to a sudden stop, but you might be able to get her to slow down a bit if you're lucky. I first had to convince the husband to come over to a Quran-alone interpretation (Quran is the only authority and the hadith are just suggestions, basically). It sounds crazy to someone from a Sunni background, but it's actually defensible if you make the right arguments, so check out Quranist websites and familiarize yourself with them. Something that was instrumental in getting the husband to start questioning Islam were videos from Adnan Ibrahim that maybe you could gently introduce her to.

    Any time you want to discuss these things, how you approach it is incredibly important. Go into it with a ton of patience and when you're relaxed, approach it as though you're asking her help in figuring out the answer to some problem in Islam that's bothering you. If you shove something critical of Islam in her face and try to make her see it from your perspective, you're going to have a bad time. She's just going to get defensive.

    Again, I wouldn't really recommend it, but if this is something you want to try, that's the route I'd take. And did take. And it worked, but it was brutal, and again, there were no kids, we'd only been married a short while, and emotions and stakes were much lower than they are in your situation, and even then I had some moments where I wanted to flip tables and yank my hair out. Some of the other members can attest to that, I was whining all over the forum. It was not looking good for us for a while.

    And had he not been the kind of person that was able to change his views like that, it wouldn't have worked at all. So if you try and it's not working out, not even a little bit, I'd abort mission very quickly to keep from making your situation more tense.

  • divorce and children
     Reply #13 - May 19, 2015, 11:58 PM

    I really appreciate the advice most of which are conclusions I arrived at myself also. Unfortunately I have been playing the patient no rush game for the last year but my wife isn't playing too. In fact she has brought round half the sheikh in Leicester to get me back on the straight path. She is scared that Allah will punish her for staying married to me.
    I am like you suggested dragging it out as long as I can but she keeps putting on the thumb screws and hounds me over wudu and praying now she is laying down the law for Ramadan. I  feel like a fraud and I just can't stand to be in the mosque now I feel like a liar to myself. The things you do for your kids eh.
    Reality is that life isn't sustainable in this situation from my wife's viewpoint. She wants me pious again and taking her off to haj praying in masjid etc etc
    I think I need to be realistic and accept divorce is inevitable short of a miracle and my wife coming around to see logic.
    I agree it is probably futile but in a last ditch attempt has anyone got any suggestions how to get through to my wife?



    I totally get what you are saying. There is not a word of it I could not truthfully have written myself (apart from the Leicester part. Grin )

    Having done what you are inclined to do, I can only tell you that I now wish I had done things a lot differently. I'm not saying that you will have to stay with her forever. I'm just saying that the freedom that you will gain by coming out to your wife will likely not outweigh, in the long run, all of the hell you will be put through when she realizes apostasy is the reason for your separation.

    Think about it this way, from your wife's perspective, you are the one who is changing. You are the one with the problem. She is only trying to maintain the status quo and figure out what on earth is happening to you. You seem to her to be doing the one thing that, in her world view, is ultimately unforgivable - the one thing that requires her to protect her family from the most. And that's likely exactly what she will do.

    Granted, you may have the law on your side, but as you said yourself, think of the indoctrination your kids will get once she knows she has to "protect their iman" from their "evil kafir father."

    So, like I said, my sincere advice (naseeha  Wink ) is to go slowly with this whole thing. Don't admit to not believing right off the bat. Even if you need some time to take yourself out of the situation for a while, try to do that without harping on and on about how bad Islam is. It will only trigger her defenses.

    I can also say that, chances are, after a few years, you'll gladly pray taraweeh amongst people who don't know the extent of your loss of faith if that was all it took to have a drama-free relationship with your kids. In the mean time, this forum is a fantastic place to vent, rant, and get it all out among people who really do understand. far away hug
  • divorce and children
     Reply #14 - May 20, 2015, 12:12 AM

    ^ This is honestly much better advice, OP. Grin

    I think when you first leave a religion (I've left two and it was the case for me with both, anyway), you go through a phase where you're totally sick of it and your tolerance is low. But it does tend to wear off. And we're pretty cool here when you want to vent. There's even boards where you can post where only members can see it, or the shelter board, where only certain trusted members can see it, if you ever want to tell some stories or get into specifics without worrying about anyone coming across it.

    Everyone's really nice, lots of us have been through similar things in one way or another, and we have some of these  far away hug and one of these guys hugs and even this  tacklehug and we're very liberal with them! So try giving yourself some time, try keeping up appearances, try going on hajj or to the mosque and then coming here and telling us how much it sucked, and maybe it'll help you blow off some steam.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #15 - May 20, 2015, 10:10 AM

    Hi lightbringer,

    and welcome to our forum  parrot

    I'm sorry to hear about your problems and can imagine how hard that must be. I don't know if divorcing and continuing your life in freedom, but then at the same time giving somehow up on children (maybe they will see your points later in their lives) would be a better option, or staying and pretending to be an Muslim again would be better.

     far away hug
  • divorce and children
     Reply #16 - May 20, 2015, 12:55 PM

    Wow you guys are amazing thank you so much for your support. I want to just add a complication I haven't mentioned yet. This is my relationship with my eldest child from a relationship before I became muslim. He is 13 and lives with his mum I just see him weekends and holidays. He is now at the age where he wants to listen to music have girlfriends eat mcdonald's etc etc. He knows about my change of opinion but he is being forced to live a lie with me too to keep my wife happy. This is putting a strain on my relationship with him too and he is not happy to visit as often due to constant criticism from my wife and the often heated atmosphere in our house. She always struggled to relate to him and was jealous of our relationship as is often the case with step children, but now she is more hostile towards him seeing us as non muslims united against her.
    lua thank you, I agree with your approach of trying to get her to think she is helping me. Maybe I can get her to help translate some controversial hadeeth or surah and get her to interpret them so she has to think about what they mean.
    Happymurtad you obviously have been right where I am now it's like you know my wife lol. I am torn between living a lie to keep my kids and being true to myself. I just can't bear to honor that man by praying and worshipping. Once you know the truth and understand he was lying he becomes such a ghastly figure. Rape slavery paedophile murderer liar etc etc To pretend to love him fills me with disgust. How long can you maintain that lie. But you are right slowly is the way forward. Thanks everyone for your kind words.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #17 - May 20, 2015, 01:44 PM

    If it makes you feel any better, the Sira is mostly legend. Although Mo does seem to have been some type of war lord, his military exploits were most likely far less bloody and widespread than the Sira indicates, and he was fighting the Roman Empire in Palestine as the underdog, not his fellow 'Qureyshites' in Mecca. The murders and massacres you're probably thinking of (Jews of Medina, critics in Mecca, etc) are fictions made up in order to show what a bad ass he was and in order to justify the persecution of and hostility to certain groups of people whom the Sira authors did not like. Aisha probably never existed, and her age of 6 at their wedding is almost certainly a fabrication to prove that she was the prophet's favorite wife and to allow her to die very late in the 7th century so as to pass on lots of hadith goodies at a relatively late date.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #18 - May 20, 2015, 01:45 PM

    Just do what feels right to you, if you want to end the relationship soon, do so, if you don't see any hope in your wife ever understanding your change of heart then don't waste your life trying to persuade her and yourself that you can live with a religion that you no longer believe in, i'd personally give it 12 months at the very maximum..   You already have a child out of marriage who you see regularly and have a great relationship with, you could establish the same relationship with your other children also through the courts and be free of Islam, that is if you can bear to be apart from your family..  gosh it is so difficult..   i wish you all the best with your decision

    Big hug  far away hug
  • divorce and children
     Reply #19 - May 20, 2015, 02:08 PM

    Thanks Suki it is a big decision, the crucial question like
    Like you say is can I bear to be separated from my kids. If separation was from a non Muslim and an amicable arrangement could be made then this would probably be my way forward. But I fear Happymurtad is right and she will become bitter and hateful towards me and fear I will be taking our kids to the fire. I fear she may try to abduct them and return to Morocco. Law in Morocco is slow and expensive. They are unlikely to return the kids to me if she tells the courts I am kafir.

    Countjulian thanks for your insight problem is we just don't know what the truth really is. A lot of what early Sira writers said was confirmed in Bukhari and if we can't trust that then you need to throw the whole religion in the bin as you have nothing trustworthy to base it on. Whatever the case I don't really want to be emulating him and his book.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #20 - May 20, 2015, 02:27 PM

    Because of the international kidnapping risk you should consider divorce the very last option. Even though they agreed to the Hague convention, UK to Morocco kidnappings are not covered under it and it really can be impossible to get them back.

    If you do ever go the divorce route, make sure you get a lawyer with a background in immigration and family issues and take every precaution you can to keep them from fleeing. In the states, you'd have to be aware that keeping your children's passports will not prevent them from leaving the country.

    And if it does come to divorce it would obviously be ideal if you officially divorced citing other reasons and kept the apostasy to yourself so you can maybe arrange joint custody with her willingly or have a leg to stand on should the worst happen.

    But yes, happymurtad's advice all the way.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #21 - May 20, 2015, 03:00 PM

    Countjulian thanks for your insight problem is we just don't know what the truth really is. A lot of what early Sira writers said was confirmed in Bukhari and if we can't trust that then you need to throw the whole religion in the bin as you have nothing trustworthy to base it on. Whatever the case I don't really want to be emulating him and his book.


    Boom goes the dynamite. Bukhari was writing in the 9th century, 200 years after Mo died. Imagine me trying to collect sayings, aphorisms, and stories of George Washington in the present day without the aid of modern universities, libraries, the internet, or even the printing press. By Bukhari's own admission 95% of the ahaadith he gathered were bogus and rejected, modern critical scholarship just moves that number up 4.9%  to 99.9 hahahahahaha.

    As for the divorce, seeing as my parents are going through it now, I would tell you to secure your money. Start setting up bank accounts that your wife cannot access, your son from your previous marriage could help you in this regard. Best of luck brother.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #22 - May 20, 2015, 03:05 PM

    Also as a techie I can add that you might want to consider limiting her access to your home internet network. You most likely have access to your home web router/modem's web graphical user interface, you could get in there and set up a 'black list' to stop certain MAC addresses from accessing the web. You could find your wife's PC/smart phone/tablet MAC then put it on the black list and turn the black list on if you think she's trying to buy the tickets. She won't be able to get on the internet and it won't be immediately clear to her why. That could buy you a day or two if you think she's a flight risk. PM for more info on how to do that.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #23 - May 20, 2015, 03:22 PM

    Thanks Suki it is a big decision, the crucial question like
    Like you say is can I bear to be separated from my kids. If separation was from a non Muslim and an amicable arrangement could be made then this would probably be my way forward. But I fear Happymurtad is right and she will become bitter and hateful towards me and fear I will be taking our kids to the fire. I fear she may try to abduct them and return to Morocco. Law in Morocco is slow and expensive. They are unlikely to return the kids to me if she tells the courts I am kafir.



    Sorry about that, i meant give it a year of trying to persuade her then think of other solutions, not to give up the marriage at that point, i didnt make myself very clear there, sorry... i wasn't saying announce your apostacy to her as a means of getting a divorce either, that would not be wise.. even myself, after being divorced for over a decade will never admit to my ex that i have apostacized, i have to be tactful and lie to him and pretend i am a weak muslim to keep the peace, otherwise he would go nuts and would try to steal my girls also, till this day i have to keep up the facade as many others do im sure.    

    x
  • divorce and children
     Reply #24 - May 20, 2015, 03:31 PM

    Also as a techie I can add that you might want to consider limiting her access to your home internet network. You most likely have access to your home web router/modem's web graphical user interface, you could get in there and set up a 'black list' to stop certain MAC addresses from accessing the web. You could find your wife's PC/smart phone/tablet MAC then put it on the black list and turn the black list on if you think she's trying to buy the tickets. She won't be able to get on the internet and it won't be immediately clear to her why. That could buy you a day or two if you think she's a flight risk. PM for more info on how to do that.


    ...Well, even if he could plan it like that and he'd be sure she'd be buying tickets at a certain time, it's not like she's going to be using his internet forever. One case I'm thinking of in particular with an international abduction happened after like months of seemingly peaceful joint custody and living apart, and then one normal day the spouse and the kids were gone.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #25 - May 20, 2015, 03:43 PM

    Ya, she can go to the library or use a travel agent on the phone. It's just a way to buy a day or two. Just better to be prepared (know where her passport is, have money in bank accounts she can't get to, monitor the bank to know if she suddenly takes a bunch out, be ready to shut her out of the network). Seeing my parents go through their thing is showing me just how quickly this stuff can happen......

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #26 - May 20, 2015, 03:45 PM

    Great advice everyone! I hadn't really thought about not stating apostacy as reason for divorce. You're right lua that could really go against me in Morocco if worst happened.
    Yes I do seriously believe that she is a flight risk as she hates UK and always bangs on about how good Morocco is. She has often mentioned that if the kids started taking on western Haram ways having boyfriends eating Haram etc she would take them to Morocco. I am pretty much all she has here except 1 sister so I am convinced that if we split she would try to return to her family.
    I think I can get a court order though stopping her taking the kids out the country. If she broke that the courts in Morocco would have to return the kids wouldn't they?
    I think I need to swallow my pride and get ready for some Ramadan fasting lol. Oh and start saving some cash for that rainy day when it comes like you say Countjulian
  • divorce and children
     Reply #27 - May 20, 2015, 03:54 PM

    I don't think it would be that easy, but that's why you need that lawyer if the time ever comes before you do anything. I've never known an international kidnapping case where it was as simple as finding the kids and returning them even if the law of the other country is technically on your side, which it might not be.
  • divorce and children
     Reply #28 - May 20, 2015, 04:00 PM

    I don't know what the laws are between the different countries but my ex's close friend was thrown into prison for a year or so for stealing his children from the Uk..  it put my ex off that idea for life..

    i think you can arrange with the uk embassy or some other gov office that they block the children from flying out of the uk if you are not physically present with them at the airport.. Something i heard a while ago ? ?
  • divorce and children
     Reply #29 - May 20, 2015, 04:05 PM

    Believe me, having your kid taken out of the country is something you have to do everything you can to prevent. Once that happens (which is not that difficult even if you have no passport), it's most often sheer luck they ever come back. If it means you have to fake being a half assed but still acceptable Muslim, I would do it. As a man you have it easier in some aspects. Masjid once a week when you're off work isn't that bad. Imagine wearing the burka Wink Been there, done that.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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