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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7980 - Yesterday at 12:09 AM

    Would you see it as an uprising with full-time standing armies?


    Sort of, yes, especially in the West until 640 maybe more. But not necessarily in Iraq vs the Persians as the war lasts more time.

     
    Quote
    The traditional narrative would imply full-time armies but is this supported by contemporary sources?

     As far as I know, contemporary sources does not speak of "campaigning season" for the West. For the East it is less clear, therefore it is possible.

    Quote
    Could the idea of emigration be an indication that soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis? Could that be where the idea of hijra actually comes from?


    Interesting question. What is an emigration ? Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7981 - Yesterday at 12:16 AM

    Sura 5 verses 30 to 32 for example.

    I call this a rewriting more than a translation...

    Quote
    Reflect.


    The apprentice always follows the step of the master (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7982 - Yesterday at 12:14 PM

    "Sura 5 verses 30 to 32 for example"    ..  Hmm there are some Quran verses here in the discussion .. why?? is there any real early Islamic history in those verses??  well let read the posts .,   

    Holy shit..,   Boy.... it appears very few know how to read a book like Quran...  .. zee discussion starts way back with VERSES COMING FROM SKY...

    Quote
    Altara: and so?These stories come from the sky rewritten?

    Marc :  No you just need to have people translating them in order to utilize them within a community.

    Altara:   Which Quranic texts are translated, can you give an example?

    Marc :  Sura 5 verses 30 to 32 for example..

    Altara:   I call this a rewriting more than a translation... 


    Hmm that is good one., Marc must realize Altara has a point there., anyway let me read Quran..

    Quote
    5:30.   Then his mind facilitated to him the slaying of his brother so he slew him; then he became one of the losers

    5: 31.   Then Allah sent a crow digging up the earth so that he might show him how he should cover the dead body of his brother. He said: Woe me! do I lack the strength that I should be like this crow and cover the dead body of my brother? So he became of those who regret.

    5: 32.   For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter  or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.


    well I again stress here ., to understand those three verse .. one must read at least 5 to10 verses and 5 to 10 verses after the verses of interest 

    Quote
    5:19.   O followers of the Book! indeed Our Apostle has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) apostles, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.

    5:20.   And when Musa said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations.

    5:21.   O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers.

    5:22.   They said: O Musa! surely there is a strong race in it, and we will on no account enter it until they go out from it, so if they go out from it, then surely we will enter.

    5:23.   Two men of those who feared, upon both of whom Allah had bestowed a favor, said: Enter upon them by the gate, for when you have entered it you shall surely be victorious, and on Allah should you rely if you are believers.

    5:24.   They said: O Musa! we shall never enter it so long as they are in it; go therefore you and your Lord, then fight you both surely we will here sit down.

    5:25.   He said: My Lord! Surely I have no control (upon any) but my own self and my brother; therefore make a separation between us and the nation of transgressors.

    5:26.   He said: So it shall surely be forbidden to them for forty years, they shall wander about in the land, therefore do not grieve for the nation of transgressors.

    5:27.   And relate to them the story of the two sons of Adam with truth when they both offered an offering, but it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said: I will most certainly slay you. (The other) said: Allah only accepts from those who guard (against evil).

    5:28.   If you will stretch forth your hand towards me to slay me, I am not one to stretch forth my hand towards you to slay you surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds:

    5:29.   Surely I wish that you should bear the sin committed against me and your own sin, and so you would be of the inmates of the fire, and this is the recompense of the unjust.

    5:30.   Then his mind facilitated to him the slaying of his brother so he slew him; then he became one of the losers

    5:31.   Then Allah sent a crow digging up the earth so that he might show him how he should cover the dead body of his brother. He said: Woe me! do I lack the strength that I should be like this crow and cover the dead body of my brother? So he became of those who regret.

    5:32.   For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.


    5:33.   The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

    5:34.   Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    5:35.   O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.

    5:36.   Surely (as for) those who disbelieve, even if they had what is in the earth, all of it, and the like of it with it, that they might ransom themselves with it from the punishment of the day of resurrection, it shall not be accepted from them, and they shall have a painful punishment.

    5:37.   They would desire to go forth from the fire, and they shall not go forth from it, and they shall have a lasting punishment.

    5:38.    And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

    5:39.    But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself), then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    reading all those verses is a minimum requirement to figure out the reason why the Authors of Quran wrote/said those verses to the  believers of Islam...  it is NOT just about that story of   'Allah sent crow digging the dead body"

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7983 - Yesterday at 06:42 PM

    Could the idea of emigration be an indication that soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis? Could that be where the idea of hijra actually comes from?

    Interesting question. What is an emigration ? Wink

     
    Presumably when saracens raided a village on the fringes of Palestine, stole some sheep and returned where they came from then this wasn’t emigration, just a successful short term venture for the saracens and a depressing reality of life for the villagers. When an occupying army gave a receipt in Greek and Arabic to a village official in Egypt for the requisition of some sheep as a down payment against the next tax demand then this was emigration, by soldiers who were most likely going to end up settling in the new garrison town at Fustat.
     
    Anyway Patricia Crone had the idea first. It’s maybe worth rereading this article and considering what is changed by the assumption of an uprising in Iraq and no Mecca, Medina or Muhammad.

    The First Century Concept of Higra



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7984 - Yesterday at 07:38 PM

    The Crone article on1st Higra concepts:

    I really dont understand what is so good about that article. Just reading the first paragraph gives the impression that Crone hasnt read her own work.  This is published in 1994 so she already wrote Hagarism, no excuse there...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7985 - Yesterday at 08:45 PM

    Could the idea of emigration be an indication that soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis? Could that be where the idea of hijra actually comes from?


    Is Hijra a Quranic concept in the narrative or is it a concept (always in the narrative) which means : "soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis"?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7986 - Today at 09:24 AM

     
    Quote

    Quote
    Presumably when saracens raided a village on the fringes of Palestine, stole some sheep and returned where they came from then this wasn’t emigration, just a successful short term venture for the saracens and a depressing reality of life for the villagers. When an occupying army gave a receipt in Greek and Arabic to a village official in Egypt for the requisition of some sheep as a down payment against the next tax demand then this was emigration, by soldiers who were most likely going to end up settling in the new garrison town at Fustat.

     
    Anyway Patricia Crone had the idea first. It’s maybe worth rereading this article and considering what is changed by the assumption of an uprising in Iraq and no Mecca, Medina or Muhammad.

    The First Century Concept of Higra

    The Crone article on1st Higra concepts:

    I really dont understand what is so good about that article. Just reading the first paragraph gives the impression that Crone hasnt read her own work.  This is published in 1994 so she already wrote Hagarism, no excuse there...



    Is Hijra a Quranic concept in the narrative or is it a concept (always in the narrative) which means : "soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis"?



     I think "....Hijrah,.....Hejira ..... Hijra......“Migration” ....“Emigration”.... whatever you call it ., it is a very unique concept in Islam  and has not come in to  Quran from OT & NT

    The story of   Meccans persecuting Prophet of Islam and his migration to Medina  in the year 622 is entirely different from what Quran  states  about migration/emigration of Muslims  at later times for preaching/spreading Islam in faraway lands .  It appears very few so-called scholars differentiate between the two .,

    And I am not sure this Hijrah story is anything to do with that "saracens soldiers raiding a village on the fringes of Palestine, and steeling   some sheep"  and I don't think   it has to do with what  Altara saying
    Quote
    ..............which means : "soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis"?............


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7987 - Today at 12:00 PM

    just because of this post of dear mundi  ..
    The Crone article on1st Higra concepts:

    I really dont understand what is so good about that article. Just reading the first paragraph gives the impression that Crone hasnt read her own work.  This is published in 1994 so she already wrote Hagarism, no excuse there...


    I have to read that  dr.  Patricia Crone article on The first century concept of Higra  again.,

    So now I wonder what is wrong with that article and why mundi says  this ..................... "Just reading the first paragraph gives the impression that Crone hasn't read her own work.  This is published in 1994 so she already wrote Hagarism, no excuse there..................."

    in fact it is very good article dear mundi

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7988 - Today at 01:56 PM

    Quote
    . "Just reading the first paragraph gives the impression that Crone hasn't read her own work.  This is published in 1994 so she already wrote Hagarism, no excuse there...


    Mundi do not get that Crone has worked on hypotheses to write Hagarism... . It means that she never considered the traditional account as obsolete.Hagarism... has never been for her the foundation of a new paradigm on which she would built something after. Ne-ver. 
    I get that it can be perceived as curious from the outside, but this is yet  the case. Many people have thought/hoped, considering Hagarism...  and Meccan Trade that she was (and will) building the/a real history of Islam. They were wrong, fooled by the scholarly reaction to those books.
    She was a great believer. This article and the rest of her production attest it.
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