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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10860 - November 29, 2022, 09:51 PM

    Thanks

    Whit oral tradition I meant the Hadith sirah and maghazi. The corpus of traditions which claims to describe Muhammad and the origins of the quran and that self describes itself to be passed over from mouth to mouth from Muhammad to the first compilers

    It is possible to understand that minor parts may got lost or confused over time when passed by memory in that some parts or words of the quran may not have preserved its meaning. Indeed what cellard says and that is also well described by Reynolds and by Kerr is that large sistematic parts of the quranic text are obscure to the readers in that this is reflected in
    Creation of a dotting system to be imposed by authority to limit and stop the variants
    Philological work by exegetes. It means they do not understand words, expressions, passsges and they not rebuild the text meaning by researching from within the quran or from other sources
    Mutually exclusive occasion of revelations/transliterations which all point back to Muhammad

    I connected to the forum to post these articles which I was reading and studying and I noticed altara posts.
    I will read the articles and see if they answer my question
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10861 - November 30, 2022, 09:42 AM

    https://www.academia.edu/36426137/Cellard_La_vocalisation_des_manuscrits_coraniques_dans_les_premiers_si%C3%A8cles_de_l_islam_in_F_D%C3%A9roche_C_Robin_et_M_Zink_%C3%A9d_Les_origines_du_Coran_le_Coran_des_origines_AIBL_2015

    Cellard in the conclusions states that
    1) part of the quran was obscure to its readers
    2) exegetes behaved as phililogists trying to reconstruct the meaning of words and passages
    2) arabic was fixed and imposed onto the quran in order to limit the number of readings and not as derived from an oral tradition



    1/Yess.
    2a/ Yess
    2b/ She does not says things like this, but like this: " It is now easier to understand the role of the treatise on punctuation ('ilm al-naqt) of the grammarian Abu Hatim al-Sigistani, which did not aspire to not to describe but rather to impose a model of vocalisation."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10862 - November 30, 2022, 09:44 AM


    I will read the articles and see if they answer my question



    We had a conversation here the last time you came (6 months?)  I invite you to read the responses I made to your posts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10863 - November 30, 2022, 09:53 PM

    Thanks altara for both comments

    Regarding the punctuation one, yes I extended what cellard says
    Indeed was my deduction why al sigistani Made that monumental work to define and impose punctuation
    Academically you cannot of course make those rapid conclusions
    I deed logically I do not see many other reasons to impose punctuation rules when not to put order into caos
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10864 - December 01, 2022, 11:25 AM

    Thanks

    Whit oral tradition I meant the Hadith sirah and maghazi. The corpus of traditions which claims to describe Muhammad and the origins of the quran and that self describes itself to be passed over from mouth to mouth from Muhammad to the first compilers

    It is possible to understand that minor parts may got lost or confused over time when passed by memory in that some parts or words of the quran may not have preserved its meaning. Indeed what cellard says and that is also well described by Reynolds and by Kerr is that large sistematic parts of the quranic text are obscure to the readers in that this is reflected in
    Creation of a dotting system to be imposed by authority to limit and stop the variants
    Philological work by exegetes. It means they do not understand words, expressions, passsges and they not rebuild the text meaning by researching from within the quran or from other sources
    Mutually exclusive occasion of revelations/transliterations which all point back to Muhammad

    I connected to the forum to post these articles which I was reading and studying and I noticed altara posts.
    I will read the articles and see if they answer my question


    hi .. Spaghettibologn      ..you know very well .. in any research investigations irrespective of the subject. .."THE DEVIL IS IN DETAILS"..  So whether it is Oral tradition OR. ORAL DIARRHEA.......   Written Manuscripts OR GARBAGE ADDITIONS TO THOSE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS. ....  The detail indeed are needed .,  This subject being NOT scientific investigations .. these religious history is a very murky subject with huge social and political consequences ..  But when it comes to Islamic history which is more recent than other old religions/faiths .. the lack focus on the part of  academics from universities across  is globe is mind boggling., It seems they do not want to solve the problems   but publish papers for the sake of their jobs..

    any way glad to read you...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10865 - December 01, 2022, 01:31 PM

    https://www.academia.edu/42251380/Jesus_in_the_Quran

    Martin kerr points to a theological overlap between the Quelle (source) of the pseudo clementine letters and of other texts available in Syriac

    looks like specific ideas around the one god, Jesus role and prophetic status were already circulating.

    What might be the bridge between this and the Quran?


    Yess. He's right to point it.
    The the pseudo clementine novel is available in Syriac. The question (for me...) is: what we see of this in the Quran? The idea that Jesus is a prophet. That's all. What does that mean that Jesus is a prophet? It means that he is no longer the son of God. What does that mean if you're convinced that Jesus is not the son of God? It means that you leave the institutionalized Christianity (Chalcedonian, Nestorian, Monophysite). What does that mean leaving Christianity? It means that you are in the Roman empire no longer bonded/linked with the political authority of Constantinople and his politics.
    Now, it's time to think.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10866 - December 01, 2022, 06:35 PM

    oh my goodness this is one of the best responses i read from Altara  on Quran and Christianity  a Q & A session
    Yess. He's right to point it.
    The the pseudo clementine novel is available in Syriac.

    Quote
    Q 1: The question (for me...) is: what we see of this in the Quran?

    Ans: The idea that Jesus is a prophet. That's all. 
    Quote
    Q 2: What does that mean that Jesus is a prophet?

    Ans:   It means that he is no longer the son of God.
    Quote
    Q 3: What does that mean if you're convinced that Jesus is not the son of God?

    Ans: It means that you leave the institutionalized Christianity (Chalcedonian, Nestorian, Monophysite).
    Quote
    Q 4 What does that mean leaving Christianity?

    Ans: It means that you are in the Roman empire no longer bonded/linked with the political authority of Constantinople and his politics.

    I have many questions on those Q & A answers..  let me watch this interview first  and ask Altara one Question..

    Which one came first .. that  Syriac pseudo clementine novel ? or OT/NT books 

    And What is Quran and Islam has to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not?  If Christians accept that Christ was a prophet  NOT son of God .. Would it solve problems in Islam??

    And  I was under the impression that Bible has plenty of sayings from that Pope Clement-1((35 AD – 99 AD??))

    anyways so many questions I have ..  Hmm

    The Syriac Clementine Recognitions and Homilies: The First Complete Translation of the Text 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10867 - December 01, 2022, 07:59 PM

    The Quranic texts draw their theological ideas from multiple writings.

    Quote
    And What is Quran and Islam has to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not?


    If it had not to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not, why it spokes (at different level constantly) about that? It is because it is the main topic for it, there are no one else.

    Quote
    And  I was under the impression that Bible has plenty of sayings from that Pope Clement-1((35 AD – 99 AD??))


    The 'Clement' of the pseudo clementine novel is not a/this pope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10868 - December 02, 2022, 09:09 AM

    1),  The Quranic texts draw their theological ideas from multiple writings.

    2). If it had not to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not, why it spokes (at different level constantly) about that? It is because it is the main topic for it, there are no one else.

    3). The 'Clement' of the pseudo clementine novel is not a/this pope.

    what actually do you mean by "multiple writings." ..  you mean Quran was written multiple times by  different folks with many different theological ideas?? and that happened  before   those sana manuscripts were written?? 

    on that point/Question 2  which I think is very important problem to make people understand

     ....   So you are saying there is only one theological idea in Quran and that is about Jesus Christ son of god problem.,  AND THAT IS THE MAIN TOPIC OF QURAN .  .and  I fully agree with that  but  do  you also read/see  any other theological ideas in Quran  verses  apart from Jesus problem? 

    and when I said this
    Quote
    And What is Quran and Islam has to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not?  If Christians accept that Christ was a prophet  NOT son of God .. Would it solve problems in Islam??

    I was pointing out that Christ as son of god  in bible is a parable ., Bible verses itself gives  that examples of such parables being

     
    Quote
    Moses is instructed to say to Pharaoh "Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, my firstborn. (Exodus 4:22)

    Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.  _(Luke 3:38)

    I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.  (Psalms 2:7   david as son of god)

    He shall build me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son”(Chro.1 17:12-13)

    and  same goes to Christ  and bible verses also say CHRIST IS NOT LITERAL SON OF GOD that Deen Show guys  throw that stuff all the time at Christian debaters

    anyways again when I said   "What is Quran and Islam has to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not?" .,  I meant ..  This Christ is NOT  son of a God is a copy-pasted. plagiarized  theological idea from bible itself  and it is NOT original  to Quran writers Also you evaded the other part of that point   which is
    Quote
    If Christians accept that Christ was a prophet  NOT son of God ..and such statements of bible are parables  Would it solve problems in Islam??

    what is your opinion on that ?
     
    As far as your Q   ..."If it had not to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not, why it spokes (at different level constantly) about that?.."   

    well Quran repeats itself that statement similar to many other bible stories in different chapters and in different verses .,  Now I wonder how many such " Jesus is NOT GOD/OR GOD SON" verses are there in Quran and what is their context.. And I think it is political reason NOT THEOLOGIAL REASON  why Qiuran says that .

    anyways so many questions and so many problems...


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10869 - December 02, 2022, 06:23 PM

    Quote
    what actually do you mean by "multiple writings." ..


    Apocrypha Gospels, Midrash, Talmud, etc.

    Quote
    So you are saying there is only one theological idea in Quran and that is about Jesus Christ son of god problem.,


    Yess.

    Quote
    do  you also read/see  any other theological ideas in Quran  verses  apart from Jesus problem?


    They're all accessories compared to the main topic.

    Quote
    I was pointing out that Christ as son of god  in bible is a parable ., Bible verses itself gives  that examples of such parables being


    If it was/is a 'parable' why the Quran insists so much? It is because it is not Yeez. When you read the (canonical) Gospels (especially Luke) you see that the conception of Jesus is due to God himself. And no one else. Reread Luke.

    Quote
    and  same goes to Christ  and bible verses also say CHRIST IS NOT LITERAL SON OF GOD

    Reread Luke.

    Quote
    If Christians accept that Christ was a prophet  NOT son of God .


    They would stop to be Christians.

    Quote
    Now I wonder how many such " Jesus is NOT GOD/OR GOD SON" verses are there in Quran and what is their context..


    Start with Q 72, then back to the beginning of the text  (the beginning of the current text).

    Quote
    And I think it is political reason NOT THEOLOGIAL REASON  why Quran says that.


    Theology serves politics in Late Antiquity.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10870 - December 02, 2022, 08:54 PM

    Hi Altara

    That the quran was composed for political reasons and to convince Arabs to cut their political bounds with Christianity was pretty clear
    Once we know that the associators are Christians there little else left
    Then of course it is very much easier to convince Arabs that Jesus was just a prophet but leave all the rest rather than to completely reset the Arabs minds

    Indeed i Guess that this idea may have started in Yemen when the romans where trying to bring Yemen under their control
    The invocations Jesus under Abraham have not a proper Christian connotation

    Then this same idea was put into written form in order to discourage the Arabs of the east to convert to Christianity (see al numan conversion and the end of lakmids power)
    The quranic texts were targeting those Arabs

    Indeed i was trying to understand if the ideas of the pseudo clementine were randomly used among the other materials in order to build a purely political book with the necessary set of ideas or if beyond the quran there was group who genuinely were carriers of a religious idea evolved from the pseudoclemetine letters and which was only exploited by a political authority

    The individuals who may have had interest in this are either the Persians in order to weaken the romans or an independent warlord who wanted his own power and independence (Abraham in the south)

    Anyway whoever did it had the money to produce it and literati willingly serving

    Finally I was trying to understand wehere did the second wave of Arabs came from to get their hands onto the texts but being outside the influence of syriac Christianity and Roman influence in order to not understand the text

    Most of the Arabs I read about were fully in contact with biths unless the elites who approached the texts were not Arabs but others coming from far away

    The Byzantine summarised allies from all around the Persians to strike them including Turks and these may have profited of the Persian crises to become leaders and penetrate into arab territory
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10871 - Yesterday at 08:26 AM

    Quote
    That the quran was composed for political reasons and to convince Arabs to cut their political bounds with Christianity was pretty clear
    Once we know that the associators are Christians there little else left
    Then of course it is very much easier to convince Arabs that Jesus was just a prophet but leave all the rest rather than to completely reset the Arabs minds.


    All of this have to be demonstrated by sources properly articulated to show that this is what has happened.

    Quote
    Indeed i Guess that this idea may have started in Yemen when the romans where trying to bring Yemen under their control
    The invocations Jesus under Abraham have not a proper Christian connotation


    Possible.

    Quote
    Then this same idea was put into written form in order to discourage the Arabs of the east to convert to Christianity (see al numan conversion and the end of lakmids power) The quranic texts were targeting those Arabs.


    The Romans Arabs were already more or less Christianized.

    Quote
    Indeed i was trying to understand if the ideas of the pseudo clementine were randomly used among the other materials in order to build a purely political book with the necessary set of ideas or if beyond the quran there was group who genuinely were carriers of a religious idea evolved from the pseudo clementine letters  and which was only exploited by a political authority


    The Quran draws from all the the parabiblical literature of  the Biblical Revelation. The idea that Jesus is a mere human is not the sole idea of the Clementine novel, it is shared by multiples heterodox groups.
    What is interesting is that the novel has been translated in Syriac  a place where the text was in competition with institutionalized Christianity (Nestorian and Monophysite).

    Quote
    The individuals who may have had interest in this are either the Persians in order to weaken the romans or an independent warlord who wanted his own power and independence (Abraham in the south)


    Possible.

    Quote
    Anyway whoever did it had the money to produce it and literati willingly serving


    Sure.

    Quote
    Finally I was trying to understand where did the second wave of Arabs came from to get their hands onto the texts but being outside the influence of Syriac Christianity and Roman influence in order to not understand the text


    You need to work more to understand why they do not understand the text. And not necessarily with the premises you exposes here. It's a long trek.

    Quote
    Most of the Arabs I read about were fully in contact with both unless the elites who approached the texts were not Arabs but others coming from far away


    You need to work more. And not necessarily with the premises you exposes here. It's a long trek. Expand your views.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10872 - Yesterday at 12:24 PM

    Quote
    looks like specific ideas around the one god, Jesus role and prophetic status were already circulating.
    What might be the bridge between this and the Quran?


    Expand/widen your view.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10873 - Yesterday at 02:05 PM

    Expand/widen your view.

    WHERE IS THE BOOK?  WHEN IS IT COMING OUT??

    and what is there to expand and widen dear Altara?  In many of your posts you already gave away the plot... So i am going in a different direction

    I am curious on these questions about Quran the present book and Quran manuscripts., Clearly there is a difference between the two...

    1). How much you read / researched on those Sana Manuscripts  either translation or in Arabic??

    2).  Do you think the present book is exactly same as those manuscripts. or did it get modify?

    3). Do you think/believe  that there were manuscripts/little story books/ little sonnets/poems in some sort of pre-Islamic ARABIC language script/s floating around in that ancient middle east crescent land before these Sana manuscripts?

    4). I know you don't believe in carbon dating and I too( way back I worked in the spectroscopy part of   dating stuff). but what approximate dates should we consider on those manuscripts??

    any way I would appreciate any of your thoughts on those simple questions.. And I will get back to Jesus Christ problem in Quran as well as in NT...but that is entirely different subject and very little to do with present Islam around the globe..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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