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 Topic: What is an Agnostic Muslim?

 (Read 15765 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 ... 7 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #30 - April 08, 2015, 01:08 PM

    Relax, Jack.

    There are different ways of accommodating ourselves with the life-swill in which we wallow. And different disinfection tactics.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #31 - April 08, 2015, 01:13 PM

    And also, Jack, dropping the "Muslim" label may have costs that a person may not be willing to face. Not saying this is necessarily true of all people or of Hassan in particular, but like for me if I were to come out to my estranged husband as an ex-Muslim, even though he isn't himself what anyone could call "devout" (I mean, he's openly gay and didn't know how to do salat 4 years after converting to Islam), there might still be unpleasant consequences. I'm not willing to find out what those consequences are or face them right now. Doesn't make my identity as an atheist less valid just because I'm not "out of the closet." Lots of people retain identities while being in the closet about that aspect of themselves (even if only to some of their acquaintances). So, Hassan might not be ready to drop the Muslim label; but that doesn't make him less of an ex-Muslim.


    I was specifically talking about Hass, and it doesn't apply to him, but I understand your position, of course I do - but if you'd made a big fuss about leaving Islam, only to return to being a Muslim, then I'd be suspicious about your reasoning (especially if I knew you well). With Hass not being ready to drop the 'Muslim' bit, well, he was a few years ago, so again, it's hard to take that seriously, also flip-flopping back and forth is never going to win accolades for courageous behaviour. If his current living circs require him to move towards Islam as a way of pacifying the Muslims he lives amongst (who are my family also, and I couldn't give a fuck about pacifying them), I can understand as well, but call me old fashioned, I believe in sticking by principles.

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #32 - April 08, 2015, 01:14 PM

    Relax, Jack.

    There are different ways of accommodating ourselves with the life-swill in which we wallow. And different disinfection tactics.


    Very true, and I'm relaxed, don't worry, I just 'react funny' when I smell b/s.

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #33 - April 08, 2015, 01:22 PM

    I was specifically talking about Hass, and it doesn't apply to him, but I understand your position, of course I do - but if you'd made a big fuss about leaving Islam, only to return to being a Muslim, then I'd be suspicious about your reasoning (especially if I knew you well). With Hass not being ready to drop the 'Muslim' bit, well, he was a few years ago, so again, it's hard to take that seriously, also flip-flopping back and forth is never going to win accolades for courageous behaviour. If his current living circs require him to move towards Islam as a way of pacifying the Muslims he lives amongst (who are my family also, and I couldn't give a fuck about pacifying them), I can understand as well, but call me old fashioned, I believe in sticking by principles.


    People are allowed to change their minds. There's sticking to your principles and being so idiotically stubborn that it's self-defeating.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #34 - April 08, 2015, 01:24 PM

    " He's contributed a tremendous amount to the ex-Muslim community, he's undoubtedly helped scores of people with their apostasy, and created enough doubt in countless others....To ask Hassan to change this label would be ultimately worthless: with or without it, he has and will continue to be a force in the right direction. "


    Lua, How is it being a force in the right direction when you lack consistency? When you say I'm an ex muslim, create a website, go to meetings, demo's, argue with Muslims in debates, makes videos, become a self proclaimed spokesman...then come out as an agnostic muslim, who prays, who admires the 'wisdom and beauty' of the Koran? All it does is confuse the issue, and invite criticism. Or are we being asked to accept hypocrisy as part of our  everyday 'culture' - like Labour/Tory - what's the difference, as long as we can come up with some snappy 'excuse' that appears to justify, but in fact says absolutely nothing other than - 'I am very confused, don't listen to me, yes listen to me, no don't, yes do.....''

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #35 - April 08, 2015, 01:28 PM

    People are allowed to change their minds. There's sticking to your principles and being so idiotically stubborn that it's self-defeating.


    Yes of course they are, but if you knew the history of Islam in my family, and the damage it has wreaked and then the bravery it took for some to leave that behind...only to meekly return, I'm afraid this has nothing to do with being idiotically stubborn.

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #36 - April 08, 2015, 01:55 PM

    .............but if you knew the history of Islam in my family, and the damage it has wreaked and then the bravery it took for some to leave that behind.........................

    Jack you are making  me sick..... and making me hate everything in my life right from the birth ............. Please stop it.. go to other thread....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #37 - April 08, 2015, 02:10 PM


    The Agnostic Muslim (AM),
    The Pragmatic Muslim (PM),
    Cultural Muslim(CM),
    Behavioral Muslim (BM),  
    Wise Muslim(WM)  ..
    Praying & fasting Muslims(PFM)
    Quran is not from God Muslim(QNFGM)  
    human reasoning Muslim(HRM)....


      damn you.,   stupid fool .... finmad finmad . No QNFGM.. No FGM... NoMutilations

     so let us do it right way .. help me here  .. let me do A to Z

    Agnostic Muslim (AM)
    Behavioral Muslim (BM)
    Cultural Muslim(CM)
    Dependent Muslim(DM)
    Evolving Muslim(EM)
    Free Muslim (FM)
    Good Muslim(GM)
    Hardcore Muslim(HM)
    Irrational Muslim(IM)
    Jolly Muslim(JM)
    K---Muslim(KM)
    Loving Muslim(LM)

    well I am losing ,,   I lost with K.,   let me drink a beer now

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91LGU64M8cQ

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #38 - April 08, 2015, 02:28 PM

    Lua, How is it being a force in the right direction when you lack consistency? When you say I'm an ex muslim, create a website, go to meetings, demo's, argue with Muslims in debates, makes videos, become a self proclaimed spokesman...then come out as an agnostic muslim, who prays, who admires the 'wisdom and beauty' of the Koran? All it does is confuse the issue, and invite criticism. Or are we being asked to accept hypocrisy as part of our  everyday 'culture' - like Labour/Tory - what's the difference, as long as we can come up with some snappy 'excuse' that appears to justify, but in fact says absolutely nothing other than - 'I am very confused, don't listen to me, yes listen to me, no don't, yes do.....''


    Because the websites and the debates and the videos still exist. I've said before that one of the many things I used to prod the husband into some deeper thinking was one of Hassan's videos. If Hassan went in the completely opposite direction today, became an avid follower of Islam, renounced everything he's ever said against it or in his videos, and I told that to my husband, the news would be greeted by a flat, "Huh. That's weird." And our life would move on. It wouldn't shake his beliefs to the core, it wouldn't make him drop his wine glass and run for the prayer mat.

    I think something that you're overlooking is that there isn't going to be just one person, just one influence, just one thing contributing to doubt and apostasy. The people who leave Islam tend to have a laundry list of reasons why it's not working out for them, and, for most of us, we really aren't so weak and confused as we'd need to be for someone self-labeling as an agnostic Muslim--even if they are prominent in the ex-Muslim community--to make us even second guess our convictions.

    On this website, there are people--myself included--who are absolutely and firmly atheists and have no desire for a kinder way of putting it. There's a whole spectrum of beliefs and identities of ex-Muslims, and that's the way it should be. I'm really not interested in demanding that every person who leaves the religion needs to wash their hands of it entirely and publicly, I'm not interested in discussions over whether people are being intellectually dishonest by choosing to occupy these transition states, a debate which brings down many people who I find absolutely critical to the reformation of Islam, which you see in the cases of people like Maajid Nawaz. It's self-defeating, it's unrealistic, and it's unfair.

    Like I said before: it's not ideal. But let's face it. Nothing about this is ideal. The world isn't ideal, so the ideal answer often doesn't fit. We're talking about a gigantic group of people with many different communities and this very imperfect, very emotional, very human problem. We're not talking about concentration camps. We're not talking about massacres. This is something where we can and do benefit from a lighter touch, and coming out, guns blazing, has a huge potential to easily backfire and make matters worse.

    If there are personal reasons why Hassan adopting this label bothers you, that's fine, but let's not try to make your objections sound more noble than they are. No, he's not ruining the movement, or even hurting it, and nothing he's ever done to help any of us has been invalidated. So don't you worry about that.

    I'm only going to say this once and then never again: I do think that, if there is a family element to this, this is really not the place to be discussing it. If you have a problem with what Hassan is doing because he's Hassan, you should contact him privately if he still values your input enough to keep that line of communication open. A public internet forum isn't the kindest way to go about it, and you can't expect that to go well, and I hope you reconsider if this is the case.
     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #39 - April 08, 2015, 03:07 PM

    Hey Jack but it would be wrong for this forum, or its founding members to promote only athiesm or apostacy. Excluding religious bigots and nutcases, cemb is here to support everyones right to label themselves with what ever they want, be they an apostate, athiest, agnostic or a believer who loves their faith but wants it to reform or those that believe in a God but don't want to follow their religion anymore etc.  It doesn't really matter what label you use to describe yourself, if Hassan is agnostic and also has a love for his muslim heritage then so be it..  what's important is that he gets to make the decision on who he wants to be and not someone else doing it for him.

    sorry i rambled
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #40 - April 08, 2015, 04:27 PM

    "Hey Jack but it would be wrong for this forum, or its founding members to promote only athiesm or apostacy. Excluding religious bigots and nutcases, cemb is here to support everyones right to label themselves with what ever they want, be they an apostate, athiest, agnostic or a believer who loves their faith but wants it to reform or those that believe in a God but don't want to follow their religion anymore etc.  It doesn't really matter what label you use to describe yourself, if Hassan is agnostic and also has a love for his muslim heritage then so be it..  what's important is that he gets to make the decision on who he wants to be and not someone else doing it for him."


    Absolutely agree with you Suki, I'm not suggesting that should be the case either. I'm just commenting on the misleading nature of the language being used to describe - as I thought this topic heading was calling for views. Anyone can be anything they want, and they should be, but it would be super if they could also be honest about it, and if they simply MUST label themselves, it helps to get it right. Obviously there are other issues, with it being Hass and a founder of CEMB. I don't think they are irrelevant, but if I'm wrong, please don't put a fatwa on me Hass. Joke Roll Eyes

    I also realise that Bigots and nutjobs abound, and that it's a fine line between crticism and hatred with that lot, but anything that is ex-muslim/anti muslim in anyway, will attract those retards, what can you do?

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #41 - April 08, 2015, 04:39 PM

    If today Richard Dawkins renounced all he had once believed and stated he was a born again Christian and that the Earth was 6,000 years old and we were created as we are by God (no evolution by common descent and natural selection), I can honestly say, other than being slightly bemused, I'd move on with my life because my beliefs are not dependent upon a single individual. I will pray proper deferrence to the individual for their insight but the facts and truth of what they said is completely independent of them. Some individuals are the torches that shine a light in one direction or another in our quest to attain enlightenment yet the important thing is attaining enlightenment itself or at least being on the path towards it (some may justifiably doubt whether or not enlightenment is all that important as the jounrey is more immprotant as that's when we grow).

    The point being, I don't worship Muhammad nor any one else therefore my principles, beliefs and notions of true and false have no bearing on whether the individuals that led me there  choose to beleive the same things that I do. I shall fight for people to lable themselves whatever they want with good reason. Don't let others define you.

    Also, people will come to question 'what is an agnostic Muslim' or a 'cultural Muslim' and from there a dialogue will develop. I choose to call myself a cultural Muslim when pressed because I'm not ashamed of my Muslim heritage as there are aspects of it I love and others I loathe and others that I am indifferent with. I hope that in conversation peoples hearts will softened when they hear how genuinely at peace I am with certain aspects of Islam and with family and friends who happen to be Muslim.Perhaps then they will question my apostasy with an open ear and who knows...maybe they're idea of the angry ex-Muslim who is filled with rage and vitriol will change.

    We are redifining ourselves all the time - principles and all - let's support each other so long as we move towards tolerance and acceptance. Where there are grey areas, let's discuss these in a safe space and allow the person in question to define themselves rather than have us do it for them.
     
    Quote
    but if you knew the history of Islam in my family, and the damage it has wreaked and then the bravery it took for some to leave that behind


    My brother, I udnerstand your suffering to a certain extent. But by framing the discussion in such a way you will ultimately only diminish whatever sympathy anyone may have for your story. Let not your suffering lead to hate.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #42 - April 08, 2015, 04:41 PM

    "Why does this have anything to do with the Council of Ex-Muslims?"

    Well, only in that it was Hass that co-founded it and was more than just instrumental in setting up this site. If he'd set it up today, with his current version of 'What I think about Islam', I was suggesting he might have called it 'Council of Agnostic Muslims', only I don't think he'd have had much success with it somehow. Likewise, for all the people who he inspired to find the courage to leave Islam, his current stance is a bit of  kick in the face. That's why.


    This forum is not only for atheists. It is also for agnostics, pantheists, deists, and even open minded, free thinking theists, and anyone else who wants to join and read or discuss anything, within the rules and guidelines of behaviour.

    Hassan can call himself agnostic Muslim, because there is no 1 way to be a 'Muslim' or to be an 'Ex-Muslim' or to be an 'agnostic'; there are many ways to be those things.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."

    Help keep this forum going! Donate to the Council of ExMuslims here: ex-muslim.org.uk/donate
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #43 - April 08, 2015, 04:56 PM

    "Hey Jack but it would be wrong for this forum, or its founding members to promote only athiesm or apostacy. Excluding religious bigots and nutcases, cemb is here to support everyones right to label themselves with what ever they want, be they an apostate, athiest, agnostic or a believer who loves their faith but wants it to reform or those that believe in a God but don't want to follow their religion anymore etc.  It doesn't really matter what label you use to describe yourself, if Hassan is agnostic and also has a love for his muslim heritage then so be it..  what's important is that he gets to make the decision on who he wants to be and not someone else doing it for him."


    Absolutely agree with you Suki, I'm not suggesting that should be the case either. I'm just commenting on the misleading nature of the language being used to describe - as I thought this topic heading was calling for views. Anyone can be anything they want, and they should be, but it would be super if they could also be honest about it, and if they simply MUST label themselves, it helps to get it right. Obviously there are other issues, with it being Hass and a founder of CEMB. I don't think they are irrelevant, but if I'm wrong, please don't put a fatwa on me Hass. Joke Roll Eyes

    I also realise that Bigots and nutjobs abound, and that it's a fine line between crticism and hatred with that lot, but anything that is ex-muslim/anti muslim in anyway, will attract those retards, what can you do?


    What is misleading or dishonest about calling yourself an agnostic Muslim? The agnostic part makes it clear that he does not believe in the theology.

    Besides, even if it were to confuse or mislead some people regarding Hassan views, that's not really Hassans problem is it, Why should he stop calling himself what he wants because of other people? it's his life and his identity.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #44 - April 08, 2015, 04:59 PM

    Hass can call himself whatever he likes, naturally. There's only one thing I would like him to be - happy. If it really means, after all the hard work to extricate himself, that he is now happy as a muslim, great. As an agnostic, great. But being one thing that pre-supposes the non-existence, just confuses me, and I thought he wanted to avoid confusion. But, really, I wish him well, if that's what he wants.

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #45 - April 08, 2015, 05:02 PM

    Besides, even if it were to confuse or mislead some people regarding Hassan views, that's not really Hassans problem is it, Why should he stop calling himself what he wants because of other people? it's his life and his identity.


    Only because he asked for views. I didn't start this thread.

    I won't answer the first part if tour post, I don't wt to go into personal details too much, it would be unfair.

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #46 - April 11, 2015, 03:36 PM

    Only because he asked for views. I didn't start this thread.

    ..........

    Jack let me  also ask you your views on  Irshad Manji

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPL4qYWXXK0

    specially on her talk

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #47 - April 11, 2015, 06:53 PM

    "Jack let me  also ask you your views on  Irshad Manji"


    She seems a very nice person, but she's another one who has basically invented her own religion, similar in some ways to Islam, but defiantly opposed to the bits she doesn't like, again as though it is pick and mix. I suspect, for her it is as a career choice, judging by the amount of times she crops up on TV and in debates promoting her latest book on it. Even she has admitted 'maybe I'm not a Muslim then' when pressed, which says it all, like, well why all this energy to force the peg into the wrong hole? It's like an insane quest that makes no sense; no matter how far you stretch/manipulate/'interpret' something round, you must, at all cost, keep on insisting it is a square - to those around you. I can think of a few reasons why you'd want to do this - because you are someone like Irshad Manji, where you've basically appointed yourself the spokesperson for an idea you will benefit from, or circumstance - where you are playing up to your community/family, because you don't want to fall out/face consequences , or because you feel so insecure and detached without it, it's become a psychological need.

    Are you a fan of hers then Yeez?

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #48 - April 11, 2015, 08:17 PM

    Irshad could have felt comfy with this course at first when first questioning etc and stuck with it cause she knows the threat if she completely dumped the label. Its somehow more acceptable to be a non-believing atheistic submissive Muslim than just a non-believing atheist. You are still seen more as one of the club.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #49 - April 11, 2015, 09:48 PM

    Quote
    yeezevee: "Jack let me  also ask you your views on  Irshad Manji"

    ........
    Are you a fan of hers then Yeez?

    No I am not fan of her, but I would like to look at her point of view Jack. Jack I may be wrong but I think you are kind of an atheist like me (correct me If I am wrong). There is no doubt she is nice person., And I can show at least half a billion Muslim folks around the globe that are as nice as her. But that is not the issue here.

    Clearly if she is doing what you said she is doing ,
    Quote
    ...........".I can think of a few reasons why you'd want to do this - because you are someone like Irshad Manji, where you've basically appointed yourself the spokesperson for an idea you will benefit from, or circumstance - where you are playing up to your community/family, because you don't want to fall out/face consequences"..........

       for the sake of  bread and butter,  for making the ends meet,  using Islam/ inventing her own type of Islam. Then I would say it is not right.  Clearly there is a political game that can be played through her type of Islam.  she could potentially become a leader of her town/community  or with her support she can get a politician she likes to get elected

     But as you pointed out,  If "she is doing it because she feels so insecure/isolated  or  detached from her community  without some type of Islam and she needs her type of Islam for her psychological needs"....
     for example many members of a forum may be  like that ........  would that  be wrong?  

    ****************************************************************************
    What is an Agnostic Muslim?

    I'M Not Muslim Anymore,I'M An Agnostic

    I think I'm an Agnostic Muslim, does that make my faith weak?

    Destiny of an agnostic Muslim?

    Agnostics who do not believe in Islam - Yasir Qadhi

    Why I Call Myself an 'Atheist Muslim'

    How do you become comfortable with being an atheist or agnostic around Muslims or religious people of any religion?

    To the Atheist and the Agnostic the Muslim says

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #50 - April 12, 2015, 09:26 AM

    " But as you pointed out,  If "she is doing it because she feels so insecure/isolated  or  detached from her community  without some type of Islam and she needs her type of Islam for her psychological needs"....
     for example many members of a forum may be  like that ........  would that  be wrong?  "


    It depends how you look at it. If it is being used like a drug, merely to feel better, then surely you want to get to the root cause and sort yourself out? Isn't it about being honest with yourself rather than looking for a label?

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #51 - April 12, 2015, 10:39 AM

    I like the Manji tangent this thread has taken. The square peg round hole thing is apt in the way that clichés tend to be apt - because they're true.

    Even she has admitted 'maybe I'm not a Muslim then' when pressed, which says it all, like, well why all this energy to force the peg into the wrong hole? It's like an insane quest that makes no sense; no matter how far you stretch/manipulate/'interpret' something round, you must, at all cost, keep on insisting it is a square - to those around you. I can think of a few reasons why you'd want to do this - because you are someone like Irshad Manji, where you've basically appointed yourself the spokesperson for an idea you will benefit from,

    I've often thought the same about Maajid Nawaz. I like him, his dress sense especially, but he's much more a man on the make than someone like Usama Hasan.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #52 - April 12, 2015, 12:03 PM

    Quote
    yeez: " But as you pointed out,  If "she is doing it because she feels so insecure/isolated  or  detached from her community  without some type of Islam and she needs her type of Islam for her psychological needs".... for example many members of a forum may be  like that ...  would that  be wrong?  "

    Quote
    jack: It depends how you look at it. If it is being used like a drug, merely to feel better, then surely you want to get to the root cause and sort yourself out? Isn't it about being honest with yourself rather than looking for a label?


    That is what I was looking from you Jack... That is exactly what religion is., is it not??  it is a self medicated  self generated drug for human mind that gives comfort to  literally to billions of folks.  

    Question is, however delusional people may be, or psychotic they may be, IF THEY ARE  NOT HARMFUL TO OTHERS,  would such  self medicated  self generated  medication to those who needs it.,  is it bad to them? or is it bad to society they are living in?

    I agree with you   that is a big ..very big "IF" there......  I know I am putting my foot in to a muddy water . but still I would like to read your opinion on such medication..

    Meanwhile let me watch this  "truth.. real truth behind Islam"    or....or  FALSIFICATION OF TRUTH

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Udb7rgKoU

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #53 - April 12, 2015, 03:30 PM

    It depends how you look at it. If it is being used like a drug, merely to feel better, then surely you want to get to the root cause and sort yourself out? Isn't it about being honest with yourself rather than looking for a label?


    We're all using our own drugs. Long as you minimize the potential for harm, don't see that it really matters much at all.


    Edit:
    IF THEY ARE  NOT HARMFUL TO OTHERS,


    Sorry yeez, didn't read your post when making response. Agreed.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #54 - April 12, 2015, 05:08 PM

    I like the Manji tangent this thread has taken. The square peg round hole thing is apt in the way that clichés tend to be apt - because they're true.
    I've often thought the same about Maajid Nawaz. I like him, his dress sense especially, but he's much more a man on the make than someone like Usama Hasan.


    Oh definitely, he knows what he's doing - i.e; milking it. I would have included Mehdi Hassan,although I have a horrible feeling that he really does believe in it, he even admitted he believes literally in winged horses flying up to heaven, but then again that could be part of his schtick to keep his target audience supporting him. Basically, as ever, those that 'speak for Islam' have the most logical reason for spouting nonsense, they directly benefit, whilst those poor old everyday muslims caught up in the charade run around like head.....like chickens without......like people caught up in a charade.  whistling2

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #55 - April 12, 2015, 05:17 PM

    Mehdi Hassan is a horrible little shit. No amount metaphorical lipstick will ever change that.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #56 - April 12, 2015, 05:30 PM

    "That is exactly what religion is., is it not??  it is a self medicated  self generated drug for human mind that gives comfort to  literally to billions of folks....  is it bad to them? or is it bad to society they are living in?"


    Not necessarily 'bad', but 'could be so much better'. And for the individual, why aspire to something so restrictive, spiritually, creatively, socially,intellectually? The simple answer 'Because it makes me happier than not doing so' can also translate as 'It's too much effort to work on myself, or to amend my own flaws', which would lead to a much more authentic, fulfilled/happy life . The same could be applied to a drug addict. Again, anyone is perfectly free to choose the easier path, but if I cared deeply about the individual, I would be happy s/he was happy, but sad at wasted potential. But to 'be happy that someone is happy' on drugs, be they chemical or ideological - is that really being happy for them?

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #57 - April 12, 2015, 05:38 PM

    We're all using our own drugs. Long as you minimize the potential for harm, don't see that it really matters much at all.


    Yes, indeed we are, but minimising the potential for harm isn't always so clear cut, and there are contradictions to confuse it even more if you look deeply into the concept of an 'opium for the people' - like, is heroin worse than religion - yes, of course, I immediately think, but then, statistically, many, many more have died in the name of God in the past 5 years than in the  world of heroin addiction. Also, although it's true we all use our own drugs, I don't believe we need to live in a society where that way of thinking is your best bet to 'get by' in life, but it seems almost an accepted 'accessory'.

    Ha Ha.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #58 - April 12, 2015, 10:22 PM

    Yes, indeed we are, but minimising the potential for harm isn't always so clear cut, and there are contradictions to confuse it even more if you look deeply into the concept of an 'opium for the people' - like, is heroin worse than religion - yes, of course, I immediately think, but then, statistically, many, many more have died in the name of God in the past 5 years than in the  world of heroin addiction. Also, although it's true we all use our own drugs, I don't believe we need to live in a society where that way of thinking is your best bet to 'get by' in life, but it seems almost an accepted 'accessory'.


    Less people "use" religion than use heroin, tho. That is a common mistake in statistics--looking at the number of overall cases, instead of the percentage of cases within a subset of the population. The percentage of the U.S. population that has used heroin at least once is 1.4% (4,200,000 people), of which 23% (966,000) will become addicted. The number of people who died of heroin overdose in 2013 is 6,235, or 0.06% of the heroin using population. About 84% of Americans claim to be religious (252,000,000). Determining the number of people who died from all religiously motivated causes (such as faith healing, snake handling, religiously motivated homicide, neglect, suicide due to psychological issues caused by religion, etc.) is very difficult. So I don't know how to determine the comparative harm of religion vs heroin, without that number.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #59 - April 25, 2015, 04:35 PM

    I just shared what I said here on Ummah.com forum.

    Slightly updated version:

    **************************************************

    Salams Everyone,

    Some of the long-time members here may remember me - some of the newer ones probably don't.

    But since my journey first went public on this forum way back when I started posting here, I thought it only fair to share with you where I am am the moment. I have also shared these thoughts on the Council of Ex-Muslims forum where I still post.

    NOTE: These are my own personal views and do not represent the views of other members of my family.

    I was born Muslim and have been a practising Muslim for 50 years, but I lost my faith about 7 or 8 years ago & have been struggling with this ever since. I have gone through many emotions such as anger, grief, loss and feelings of betrayal and wanted to just erase Islam from my life. But it is not easy to just walk away from the beliefs that shaped your whole being for 50 years and then start from scratch and create a new identity.

    The truth is that there is so much in Islam that I still love and is good and that is very much a part of who I am and I feel more comfortable identifying as a Muslim. Yet at the same time there are things I find unable to believe in.

    So I have now decided to use the label "Agnostic Muslim" to embrace both these aspects. Identifying as a Muslim is also a pragmatic choice as it makes life easier amongst my Muslim family and friends. But it is also because Islam has without doubt been a major influence on me for half a century. It shaped who I am, influences my behaviour, cultural habits, the way I think and look at the world. I instinctively reference wise sayings from Qur'an and Sunna and also find comfort in prayer and fasting.

    At the same time I believe it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God and while I consider the Qur'an a remarkable work with a great deal of wisdom, I do not believe it is the infallible. I accept it was inspired, but this inspiration came through the mind and the person of the Prophet and he played role in composing it. As a result I believe the Qur'an (as well as any other holy text…) should be subject to human reason - and not the other way around.

    Peace,

    Hassan.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?440158-What-is-an-Agnostic-Muslim

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
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