Linguistic miracle

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Linguistic miracle
Reply #30 - December 09, 2014, 07:57 AM

Quote from: laico on December 05, 2014, 02:19 PM
Precisely, I have heard tzortiz try and get around this obstacle by comparing it to knowing china exists but never seeing it

Lol, what a poor analogy. Does anyone have any other scholarly resources regarding the linguistic miracle? Does the Qur'an does fit into any forms of Arabic language (types of prose and poetry)? Is it even impossible for a text to not exactly fall into an exact form of language? Wouldn't some texts have a mixture of language forms?
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Reply #31 - December 10, 2014, 08:03 AM

Quote from: questioner on December 09, 2014, 07:57 AM
Lol, what a poor analogy. Does anyone have any other scholarly resources regarding the linguistic miracle? Does the Qur'an does fit into any forms of Arabic language (types of prose and poetry)? Is it even impossible for a text to not exactly fall into an exact form of language? Wouldn't some texts have a mixture of language forms?

Watch this video: The Inimitable Qur'an (A Podcast Response to Dawa…: http://youtu.be/sCZTBX_tK_8
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Reply #32 - December 12, 2014, 12:56 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fOIXwbVfVs Relevant video from Klingshor's old youtube channel.
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Reply #33 - December 12, 2014, 02:10 AM

So is the Quran is just written in the style of "saj" (which was a widespread literary style at the time), but occasionally breaks the rhyme scheme? So inconsistently writing in a popular literary form of the time is miraculous?

Is this really what all the fuss is about?

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Reply #34 - December 12, 2014, 03:44 AM

Yes, basically. I guess every new unique literary genre or style must be miraculous. I always knew Kafka was divine

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Reply #35 - December 12, 2014, 04:19 AM

Quote from: justperusing on December 12, 2014, 02:10 AM
So is the Quran is just written in the style of "saj" (which was a widespread literary style at the time), but occasionally breaks the rhyme scheme? So inconsistently writing in a popular literary form of the time is miraculous?

Is this really what all the fuss is about?

pretty much. Tzortzis says the really amazing thing is that you cant tell which parts are saj, and which parts are using poetic meters, and thats what makes it really special. They are mixed up "like a pizza".

His proof is some quote from somebody saying you almost can't tell.
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Reply #36 - December 12, 2014, 04:54 AM

Still not miraculous, still something that has been done before in literature. Invention and re-invention of different literary styles and genres. It still baffles me how anyone with any intellectual honesty can say with a straight face "poetry is miraculous" To be honest, literature being subjective in nature so to speak, to say that human language and literature somehow is god's literal word uncreated is just so bizarre. Our creator's uncreated word, magnificant and miraculous, is way too occupied with hayd, nifaas and men's sexual exploits...

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Reply #37 - December 12, 2014, 07:37 AM

not a pizza. not a burger. a miracle

the bulk of the linguistic miracle argument discussing the details of arabic grammar, is merely a distraction from the fact that the important parts of the argument are ridiculous. All of the main premises are gibberish, including what is meant by the word 'miracle'.

If i were to spend 3 hours talking about what various farmers have said about various cheese making processes, you may forget that i'm trying to argue that a pizza burger is a miracle, and that I have redefined the word to be meaningless anyway. That is the basic strategy. Any objections you can raise can be dismissed with 'produce a pizzaburger like it'.
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Reply #38 - December 12, 2014, 09:28 AM

Quote from: Cornflower on December 12, 2014, 03:44 AM
Yes, basically. I guess every new unique literary genre or style must be miraculous. I always knew Kafka was divine

I used to thin Massive Attack had reinvented music.

I was ignorant of their sources (from 3.00).
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Reply #39 - December 12, 2014, 11:48 AM

Quote from: Cornflower on December 12, 2014, 03:44 AM
Yes, basically. I guess every new unique literary genre or style must be miraculous. I always knew Kafka was divine

Yes, that's the funny thing. There's a general understanding that the Quran being divine because of its beauty isn't the best argument. There has to be something that sets it aside from the classics, from War and Peace, from Lamiyyat al Arab, from some fanfiction you really really liked on the internet. So they take this long, winding road that leads back to the same place, deconstructing the Quran and explaining how it borrowed and reformed and got a voice all its own. But then what do you say about it? That's not a miracle, that's art.

All of their explanations and arguments meant to lead the discussion away from it being a simple matter of aesthetics will sound, at its very best, like a well-researched paper submitted for an art history/art appreciation class by a student who just barely missed the point, and will ultimately change nothing. The argument is still precisely as bad as it looked the first time.
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Reply #40 - December 12, 2014, 01:09 PM

What I hate about this argument is it is so completely esoteric (only applies to people that can read ancient Arabic). And the sophists that try to argue for it can hardly even read it in Arabic either. It seems like the kind of argument that's pure smokes and mirrors and is basically trying to confuse you into submission

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Reply #41 - December 12, 2014, 01:23 PM

Can't the inconsistency of its literary styles merely be evidence that the quran was compiled from multiple sources and multiple authors?

"I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
-Thomas Paine
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