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Theme Changer

 Topic: I reconvert

 (Read 10725 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • I reconvert
     OP - November 16, 2014, 10:23 PM

    Guys

    I give up. Since I considered myself an ex-muslim, my anxieties and intrusive rumination about the nature of God, religions, different religions' apologetics haven't cease. I became almost one amateur theologian. I even learned some hieroglyphs to try to debunk a muslim apologetic claim.

    There is something inside myself which caused my anxiety and I was never assured that I was doing the "right " thing. I've never been sure.
    Now reconverting, I don't know if that's the right thing, I don't know if Allah exists or Muhammad has some connexion with him. I want my anxiety to cease.

    I'm gay. I had started withmy questions about how Allah was just to gay people. The furthest point people made was that this was to be compensated in the afterlife if one lives a "sterile" life. I can't reject this although I wanted ex-muslims and non muslims claims to be true. But I can never be sure. You may know me from my recent posts.

    I don't know what I'll do now, or how I'll spend my other days. Should I pray in order to confirm with the rules, should I suppress my feelings? Should I sacrifice the life of "this world" for that of the other one? If I do so, will I feel comfortable in that world? I don't know either.

  • I reconvert
     Reply #1 - November 16, 2014, 10:37 PM

    Are you happy now, abbuke, having returned to Islam? Are your anxieties gone?
  • I reconvert
     Reply #2 - November 16, 2014, 10:38 PM

    Do what makes you fell comfortable and happy. If rejecting Islam causes you anxiety and you find comfort in prayer etc... no problem.

    No-one here will judge you or treat you differently regardless of whether you are a Muslim or not.

     Smiley

    It's only arseholes we don't tolerate  grin12


  • I reconvert
     Reply #3 - November 16, 2014, 10:41 PM

    Do you think that you'll become a better person and have a purpose in your life if you reconvert?  Or is it mainly because you are afraid of hell?
  • I reconvert
     Reply #4 - November 16, 2014, 10:44 PM

    Cheesy Cheesy Initially quoted my own post, but:
    Do what makes you fell comfortable and happy. If rejecting Islam causes you anxiety and you find comfort in prayer etc... no problem.


    Precisely.

    Personally, I will feel very sorry knowing that you are gay and believing that you are throwing away any chance with happiness with a partner for an afterlife that doesn't exist. But at the same time, if you're really incapable of pursuing what you want while you're alive without constant anxiety, it won't be much better, will it?

    I think you need to stop pushing yourself. Don't declare yourself ex-Muslim or anything like that. Spend some time doing what you've always been doing and figuring yourself out. See how you feel a few months from now, or in a year or two. See where life takes you, see what it teaches you, and don't feel like you need to take a stance today on what your religious beliefs are.

    Go easy on yourself, abbuke.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #5 - November 16, 2014, 10:45 PM

    I prayed part of the last prayer of today. My anxieties didn't go. I prayed in arabic, I didn't understand it. If there is Allah, I can't accept you, burning there. Believing in Allah to feel safe now, feels a little bit safe, makes me feel like, I'm worthless.
    Not because I fear hell, I was fearing not doing the "right" thing: questioning.?
  • I reconvert
     Reply #6 - November 16, 2014, 10:47 PM

    If I'm muslim again now, that will require praying 5 times again, feeling sinful for sins. Why do I think that life will suck like that? Am I acting on my pleasures about life? 
  • I reconvert
     Reply #7 - November 16, 2014, 10:50 PM

    Oh, fuck the right thing, abbuke. There's no shame in staying in Islam or praying or playing it safe.

    I don't think you really will stop questioning, especially with your sexuality as what I would imagine a near constant reminder of what is, ostensibly, an incompatibility between you and the religion. I think you might find yourself feeling a bit more confident at some other point in your life and more comfortable letting go. Or maybe not, who knows?

    But don't feel worthless. You're a bright kid, and a nice one, too. There's a lot more to you than whether you follow a religion or not, or whether you dissect and question everything or not. You're severely stressed out. You need to take care of yourself, and do what feels right for now.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #8 - November 16, 2014, 11:00 PM

    My superego tells me I'm wrong in questioning, best is being a slave of God. Logically I can understand how people can't believe in Islam, and they should not be punished. It seems however there is no other way for me. I don't want it to be true. But I think just because I don't want it, doesn't make it false. 

    Without a "right thing" to do. I can't do anything.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #9 - November 16, 2014, 11:01 PM

    If I'm muslim again now, that will require praying 5 times again, feeling sinful for sins. Why do I think that life will suck like that? Am I acting on my pleasures about life?  


    Well, of course it will suck like that. Islam is all about suffering now and gaining access to the wordly pleasures in the afterlife.
    It is intoxicating.




  • I reconvert
     Reply #10 - November 16, 2014, 11:02 PM

    My superego tells me I'm wrong in questioning, best is being a slave of God. Logically I can understand how people can't believe in Islam, and they should not be punished. It seems however there is no other way for me. I don't want it to be true. But I think just because I don't want it, doesn't make it false. 

    Without a "right thing" to do. I can't do anything.


    Then stay Muslim for now, or at least go through the motions and pray and all that if it relieves your anxiety. If something changes later on, it'll change. Just try to do what makes you happy, abbuke, okay? And take it one day at a time.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #11 - November 16, 2014, 11:44 PM

    At the risk of being one of those arseholes Abu Ali speaks of, I do think that you're at an important crossroads, you're at a critical point of your life. I think that by your later posts you were maybe hoping for something other than reaffirmation that you're fine going back to Islam? Or am I over analyzing? I do agree:
    If I'm muslim again now, that will require praying 5 times again, feeling sinful for sins. Why do I think that life will suck like that? Am I acting on my pleasures about life? 


    Life like that does suck. Religion, Islam in particular might instill a few 'good' ideals among its varying concepts, but it has one ideology that is never to be denied; Between this life and 'the one after', the latter is better and much more eternal. It's a core concept in Islam that by living your life according to the criteria of someone else-Allah who is ever mentioned by a he or they, because she and it are likely ignorant of how just great 'he' is-, you will be able to attain the fruits of the afterlife, one that many have argued is as miserable for those in heaven as it is for those in hell. We are living organisms, it is absurd to say that we shouldn't act on the 'pleasure of life', we only have to be considerate of those who are trying to do the same. I would at least ask you to learn Arabic rather than blindly recite words which you can't come close to comprehending; At least don't pray blindly.

    If I'm correct and you're actually interested in a calm discussion, I'd be more than happy to discuss any points you bring up, and I'm sure lots of other more capable people would also be up to the task; I'd also recommend checking out other intellectual posts around the forums. If you are however simply informing us of the news, then I apologize for barging into your thread like that, and wish you all the best. Cheers.


    أشهد أن لا إله
  • I reconvert
     Reply #12 - November 17, 2014, 12:06 AM

    No, You are more than welcome to have a talk.

    I thought  about why I felt insecure after leaving Islam, and concluded that maybe because I feel I'm doing the "wrong" think inside. When I look at my deconversion history, it's moral reasons for which I don't want Islam to be true + a set of arguments about "lack of proof"; 'evidences against" - apologetic claims about how those evidences against don't prove anything. Apologetic 'evidences for' and non muslim claims about how those evidences for don't prove anything. But this is not the main thing in my problem.

    I can't decide on what's right, between reason and tradition/revelation. I'm actually fully sophisticated person around my friends. I had  a de-converting friends who started the same process with me. It was easy for him to follow his reason, but I can't favour my reason over religion. It's like, there is a rule setter in my head: one says that I should go easy in my life, there is nothing bad in pleasures, there is nothing bad in being pragmatic; anther voice claiming that all that matters is afterlife, all that's important is being a slave.

  • I reconvert
     Reply #13 - November 17, 2014, 12:13 AM

    You do you man. It is kinda sad to see you be miserable both ways, as a muslim and as an ex-muslim, though. Perhaps you should try some more liberal sects of Islam or become a non-practicing Muslim? I have heard there are some Muslim groups that accept homosexuality.

    Do what is comfortable man. You have a long life ahead of you and you can always change your mind if being a Muslim becomes too miserable. Good luck with Law School and we'll always be here if you want to talk! Feel free to PM me if you need anything!

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • I reconvert
     Reply #14 - November 17, 2014, 12:39 AM

    They have a few gay friendly masjids now. I think I heard of one in France, one in Canada (East Coast), one in the US, maybe Michigan, or was it DC?.

    Sometimes when you leave an all encompassing way of life, you feel completely lost, adrift. It is the scariest thing. It makes you want to turn back to the familiar. That feeling passes in time.

    Islam would be a horrifying and nasty faith without it's followers. Nice Muslims make Islam much more benign than it's canonical texts. Maybe you can advocate for tolerance and change from within the ranks.

    I like Muslims, ex-Muslims, both. I just want you to be happy, content, and fulfilled with your life choices, no matter what your beliefs might be.

    My mother raised me in a gay household. I am always available for PM if you ever need to talk about it. I am considered Family, even by Family.

    Best wishes!

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #15 - November 17, 2014, 12:47 AM

    I think Islam would never accept those gay masjids, they can't explain the hatred in the hadith literature. I need to be homophobic if I am muslim.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #16 - November 17, 2014, 12:53 AM

    Actually, Abbuke, have you read many hadith? I can understand if you wanted to cling to the Quran, but the hadith are actually just full of indefensible bullshit and silliness and errors. I'd take them with a grain of salt.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #17 - November 17, 2014, 12:59 AM

    I wouldnt advise you to reconvert. It is just running away from your fears instead of dealing with them.
    Question more and more. Start looking at things with a different point of view.

    Yes, take your time. But reconverting is not going to solve the problem, imo.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #18 - November 17, 2014, 01:08 AM

    Actually, Abbuke, have you read many hadith? I can understand if you wanted to cling to the Quran, but the hadith are actually just full of indefensible bullshit and silliness and errors. I'd take them with a grain of salt.


    Right, but if I reject hadith, it is impossible to be a muslim. As a Quran-only muslim, I'll be incapable of understanding it, so I have to accept all the hadith and not discriminate among them according to my "desires". - that'd make me a consistent muslim.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #19 - November 17, 2014, 01:09 AM

    I wouldnt advise you to reconvert. It is just running away from your fears instead of dealing with them.
    Question more and more. Start looking at things with a different point of view.

    Yes, take your time. But reconverting is not going to solve the problem, imo.


    I need to feel right, and not "rebellious", even if I start questioning. For me the questioning is already when you are de-converted as you no longer believe. And if I believe while questioning, it won't be a real questioning.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #20 - November 17, 2014, 01:10 AM

    You say "right." Do you mean you know that there are inaccuracies and silliness and bullshit in the hadith, but you are going to tell yourself to accept it anyway?
  • I reconvert
     Reply #21 - November 17, 2014, 01:12 AM

    I think Islam would never accept those gay masjids, they can't explain the hatred in the hadith literature. I need to be homophobic if I am muslim.


    That's how it seems to me, but those are masjids with Imams and Ummah. So they know something we do not. Maybe their reasoning and their sources would make sense to you.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #22 - November 17, 2014, 01:13 AM

    Yes, I saw them all and studied them. Those involving killing, torture, days of the week for creation, etc.

    I'm thinking on trying rationalising them and see if that feels right.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #23 - November 17, 2014, 01:16 AM

    Why do you need to call yourself Muslim? If you have a belief in god, take from whatever scripture that which intuitively feels right to you, and allow yourself a spiritual practise that makes you happy. Let happiness be your guide, not what Islam says you should do or feel.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • I reconvert
     Reply #24 - November 17, 2014, 01:18 AM

    I need to feel right, and not "rebellious", even if I start questioning. For me the questioning is already when you are de-converted as you no longer believe. And if I believe while questioning, it won't be a real questioning.


    But then you are saying that Allah created you to abandon your senses? The reason we have isnad is because people question the Hadith. Not Sahih, kick it to the curb, right? Why would we bother with what is authentic and what is not proven if people were not supposed to question? Why would we have Tafsir? Tafsir is to clarify what people are questioning in Quran. Why would you choose to believe one scholar over your neighbor? Because that scholar researched for years on some issue and then clarified it for you. Your neighbor is guessing, and since his niyyat is good, it is acceptable. But for real, everyone knows you need the scholar more than the neighbor, because people question your neighbor's pronouncements. The entire tradition is built on questioning. Islam begs questioning, and it obliges with answers from every direction. Just pick one. But don't stop the questioning.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #25 - November 17, 2014, 01:20 AM

    I think this idea of feeling that questioning your beliefs can be similar to apostasy is something that is a product of religious indoctrination. People who have been involved in cults feel guilty for questioning their leader before they wake up and leave the cult.

    Don't even Muslims say that some of the hadith are fabricated? All the accounts of traditional Islam were written at such a late date that I'm sure much of the information is flat out false. I don't understand the need to follow any hadith since the Quran says nothing about following them be necessary for interpretation. For me it seems like that would be the equivalent of following Catholic Church tradition as a Christian.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • I reconvert
     Reply #26 - November 17, 2014, 01:21 AM

    Yes, I saw them all and studied them. Those involving killing, torture, days of the week for creation, etc.

    I'm thinking on trying rationalising them and see if that feels right.


    What's so special about a  homophobic God?
  • I reconvert
     Reply #27 - November 17, 2014, 01:22 AM

    Yes, I saw them all and studied them. Those involving killing, torture, days of the week for creation, etc.

    I'm thinking on trying rationalising them and see if that feels right.


    Not to mention scientific inaccuracies and probably 50 pages worth of the Prophet Mohammad urinating on or in different things.

    If I were you, I'd try looking into the Quranist view a lot more. It's simply not true that Sunni Islam is the one true Islam and that there's no other way to be Muslim. If you can, try checking out Adnan Ibrahim, who does a pretty good job of defending the Quran as the lone arbiter.

    I mean, you're committed to accepting Islam. And okay, that's cool. The reason you're so committed is because you don't feel comfortable saying that it is definitely untrue. Well, you can believe that Islam is the truth without accepting every single thing that historically jumped into the package of "Islam."At the very least, eliminate the parts that you know aren't true. Don't let your fear convince you to accept something you know is factually inaccurate. Only keep the stuff you have reason to have doubts about, if you need to at all.
  • I reconvert
     Reply #28 - November 17, 2014, 01:37 AM

    Why do you need to call yourself Muslim? If you have a belief in god, take from whatever scripture that which intuitively feels right to you, and allow yourself a spiritual practise that makes you happy. Let happiness be your guide, not what Islam says you should do or feel.

     
    Because I can't answer if questioning Islam was the 'right' thing at the beginning.
    But then you are saying that Allah created you to abandon your senses? The reason we have isnad is because people question the Hadith. Not Sahih, kick it to the curb, right? Why would we bother with what is authentic and what is not proven if people were not supposed to question? Why would we have Tafsir? Tafsir is to clarify what people are questioning in Quran. Why would you choose to believe one scholar over your neighbor? Because that scholar researched for years on some issue and then clarified it for you. Your neighbor is guessing, and since his niyyat is good, it is acceptable. But for real, everyone knows you need the scholar more than the neighbor, because people question your neighbor's pronouncements. The entire tradition is built on questioning. Islam begs questioning, and it obliges with answers from every direction. Just pick one. But don't stop the questioning.

    Islam encourages questioning to the extent that it is not against it and only to discover the hidden wisdoms of its message. It never says "look for other religions, you'll discover at the end that Islam is true". That seems like  a trap, so designed that I would expect from a sadist God. (sadist in this world)
    For me it seems like that would be the equivalent of following Catholic Church tradition as a Christian.

    For muslims you should question your religion, so that you should become a muslim. But while becoming muslim, you should not, in other words, the only questioning must happen against roman catholicism but not while accepting Islam.
    What's so special about a  homophobic God?

    It's that it was the God i was raised to believe in for almost 20 years, the one (imaginary or not) that causes my anxiety and tells me to do whatever he wants.



  • I reconvert
     Reply #29 - November 17, 2014, 01:44 AM

    You're hoping to fall on the side of the truth, abbuke. You can call the truth whatever you want, and, in your case, you're calling it Islam.

    If you know the hadith are full of inaccuracies and can be demonstrated to be inaccurate, then you know they are not true. And if Islam is true, then these cannot be part of Islam, wouldn't you agree?
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