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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10860 - November 29, 2022, 09:51 PM

    Thanks

    Whit oral tradition I meant the Hadith sirah and maghazi. The corpus of traditions which claims to describe Muhammad and the origins of the quran and that self describes itself to be passed over from mouth to mouth from Muhammad to the first compilers

    It is possible to understand that minor parts may got lost or confused over time when passed by memory in that some parts or words of the quran may not have preserved its meaning. Indeed what cellard says and that is also well described by Reynolds and by Kerr is that large sistematic parts of the quranic text are obscure to the readers in that this is reflected in
    Creation of a dotting system to be imposed by authority to limit and stop the variants
    Philological work by exegetes. It means they do not understand words, expressions, passsges and they not rebuild the text meaning by researching from within the quran or from other sources
    Mutually exclusive occasion of revelations/transliterations which all point back to Muhammad

    I connected to the forum to post these articles which I was reading and studying and I noticed altara posts.
    I will read the articles and see if they answer my question
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10861 - November 30, 2022, 09:42 AM

    https://www.academia.edu/36426137/Cellard_La_vocalisation_des_manuscrits_coraniques_dans_les_premiers_si%C3%A8cles_de_l_islam_in_F_D%C3%A9roche_C_Robin_et_M_Zink_%C3%A9d_Les_origines_du_Coran_le_Coran_des_origines_AIBL_2015

    Cellard in the conclusions states that
    1) part of the quran was obscure to its readers
    2) exegetes behaved as phililogists trying to reconstruct the meaning of words and passages
    2) arabic was fixed and imposed onto the quran in order to limit the number of readings and not as derived from an oral tradition



    1/Yess.
    2a/ Yess
    2b/ She does not says things like this, but like this: " It is now easier to understand the role of the treatise on punctuation ('ilm al-naqt) of the grammarian Abu Hatim al-Sigistani, which did not aspire to not to describe but rather to impose a model of vocalisation."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10862 - November 30, 2022, 09:44 AM


    I will read the articles and see if they answer my question



    We had a conversation here the last time you came (6 months?)  I invite you to read the responses I made to your posts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10863 - November 30, 2022, 09:53 PM

    Thanks altara for both comments

    Regarding the punctuation one, yes I extended what cellard says
    Indeed was my deduction why al sigistani Made that monumental work to define and impose punctuation
    Academically you cannot of course make those rapid conclusions
    I deed logically I do not see many other reasons to impose punctuation rules when not to put order into caos
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10864 - December 01, 2022, 11:25 AM

    Thanks

    Whit oral tradition I meant the Hadith sirah and maghazi. The corpus of traditions which claims to describe Muhammad and the origins of the quran and that self describes itself to be passed over from mouth to mouth from Muhammad to the first compilers

    It is possible to understand that minor parts may got lost or confused over time when passed by memory in that some parts or words of the quran may not have preserved its meaning. Indeed what cellard says and that is also well described by Reynolds and by Kerr is that large sistematic parts of the quranic text are obscure to the readers in that this is reflected in
    Creation of a dotting system to be imposed by authority to limit and stop the variants
    Philological work by exegetes. It means they do not understand words, expressions, passsges and they not rebuild the text meaning by researching from within the quran or from other sources
    Mutually exclusive occasion of revelations/transliterations which all point back to Muhammad

    I connected to the forum to post these articles which I was reading and studying and I noticed altara posts.
    I will read the articles and see if they answer my question


    hi .. Spaghettibologn      ..you know very well .. in any research investigations irrespective of the subject. .."THE DEVIL IS IN DETAILS"..  So whether it is Oral tradition OR. ORAL DIARRHEA.......   Written Manuscripts OR GARBAGE ADDITIONS TO THOSE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS. ....  The detail indeed are needed .,  This subject being NOT scientific investigations .. these religious history is a very murky subject with huge social and political consequences ..  But when it comes to Islamic history which is more recent than other old religions/faiths .. the lack focus on the part of  academics from universities across  is globe is mind boggling., It seems they do not want to solve the problems   but publish papers for the sake of their jobs..

    any way glad to read you...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10865 - December 01, 2022, 01:31 PM

    https://www.academia.edu/42251380/Jesus_in_the_Quran

    Martin kerr points to a theological overlap between the Quelle (source) of the pseudo clementine letters and of other texts available in Syriac

    looks like specific ideas around the one god, Jesus role and prophetic status were already circulating.

    What might be the bridge between this and the Quran?


    Yess. He's right to point it.
    The the pseudo clementine novel is available in Syriac. The question (for me...) is: what we see of this in the Quran? The idea that Jesus is a prophet. That's all. What does that mean that Jesus is a prophet? It means that he is no longer the son of God. What does that mean if you're convinced that Jesus is not the son of God? It means that you leave the institutionalized Christianity (Chalcedonian, Nestorian, Monophysite). What does that mean leaving Christianity? It means that you are in the Roman empire no longer bonded/linked with the political authority of Constantinople and his politics.
    Now, it's time to think.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10866 - December 01, 2022, 06:35 PM

    oh my goodness this is one of the best responses i read from Altara  on Quran and Christianity  a Q & A session
    Yess. He's right to point it.
    The the pseudo clementine novel is available in Syriac.

    Quote
    Q 1: The question (for me...) is: what we see of this in the Quran?

    Ans: The idea that Jesus is a prophet. That's all. 
    Quote
    Q 2: What does that mean that Jesus is a prophet?

    Ans:   It means that he is no longer the son of God.
    Quote
    Q 3: What does that mean if you're convinced that Jesus is not the son of God?

    Ans: It means that you leave the institutionalized Christianity (Chalcedonian, Nestorian, Monophysite).
    Quote
    Q 4 What does that mean leaving Christianity?

    Ans: It means that you are in the Roman empire no longer bonded/linked with the political authority of Constantinople and his politics.

    I have many questions on those Q & A answers..  let me watch this interview first  and ask Altara one Question..

    Which one came first .. that  Syriac pseudo clementine novel ? or OT/NT books 

    And What is Quran and Islam has to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not?  If Christians accept that Christ was a prophet  NOT son of God .. Would it solve problems in Islam??

    And  I was under the impression that Bible has plenty of sayings from that Pope Clement-1((35 AD – 99 AD??))

    anyways so many questions I have ..  Hmm

    The Syriac Clementine Recognitions and Homilies: The First Complete Translation of the Text 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10867 - December 01, 2022, 07:59 PM

    The Quranic texts draw their theological ideas from multiple writings.

    Quote
    And What is Quran and Islam has to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not?


    If it had not to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not, why it spokes (at different level constantly) about that? It is because it is the main topic for it, there are no one else.

    Quote
    And  I was under the impression that Bible has plenty of sayings from that Pope Clement-1((35 AD – 99 AD??))


    The 'Clement' of the pseudo clementine novel is not a/this pope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10868 - December 02, 2022, 09:09 AM

    1),  The Quranic texts draw their theological ideas from multiple writings.

    2). If it had not to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not, why it spokes (at different level constantly) about that? It is because it is the main topic for it, there are no one else.

    3). The 'Clement' of the pseudo clementine novel is not a/this pope.

    what actually do you mean by "multiple writings." ..  you mean Quran was written multiple times by  different folks with many different theological ideas?? and that happened  before   those sana manuscripts were written?? 

    on that point/Question 2  which I think is very important problem to make people understand

     ....   So you are saying there is only one theological idea in Quran and that is about Jesus Christ son of god problem.,  AND THAT IS THE MAIN TOPIC OF QURAN .  .and  I fully agree with that  but  do  you also read/see  any other theological ideas in Quran  verses  apart from Jesus problem? 

    and when I said this
    Quote
    And What is Quran and Islam has to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not?  If Christians accept that Christ was a prophet  NOT son of God .. Would it solve problems in Islam??

    I was pointing out that Christ as son of god  in bible is a parable ., Bible verses itself gives  that examples of such parables being

     
    Quote
    Moses is instructed to say to Pharaoh "Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, my firstborn. (Exodus 4:22)

    Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.  _(Luke 3:38)

    I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.  (Psalms 2:7   david as son of god)

    He shall build me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son”(Chro.1 17:12-13)

    and  same goes to Christ  and bible verses also say CHRIST IS NOT LITERAL SON OF GOD that Deen Show guys  throw that stuff all the time at Christian debaters

    anyways again when I said   "What is Quran and Islam has to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not?" .,  I meant ..  This Christ is NOT  son of a God is a copy-pasted. plagiarized  theological idea from bible itself  and it is NOT original  to Quran writers Also you evaded the other part of that point   which is
    Quote
    If Christians accept that Christ was a prophet  NOT son of God ..and such statements of bible are parables  Would it solve problems in Islam??

    what is your opinion on that ?
     
    As far as your Q   ..."If it had not to do with whether Jesus  Son of God or not, why it spokes (at different level constantly) about that?.."   

    well Quran repeats itself that statement similar to many other bible stories in different chapters and in different verses .,  Now I wonder how many such " Jesus is NOT GOD/OR GOD SON" verses are there in Quran and what is their context.. And I think it is political reason NOT THEOLOGIAL REASON  why Qiuran says that .

    anyways so many questions and so many problems...


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10869 - December 02, 2022, 06:23 PM

    Quote
    what actually do you mean by "multiple writings." ..


    Apocrypha Gospels, Midrash, Talmud, etc.

    Quote
    So you are saying there is only one theological idea in Quran and that is about Jesus Christ son of god problem.,


    Yess.

    Quote
    do  you also read/see  any other theological ideas in Quran  verses  apart from Jesus problem?


    They're all accessories compared to the main topic.

    Quote
    I was pointing out that Christ as son of god  in bible is a parable ., Bible verses itself gives  that examples of such parables being


    If it was/is a 'parable' why the Quran insists so much? It is because it is not Yeez. When you read the (canonical) Gospels (especially Luke) you see that the conception of Jesus is due to God himself. And no one else. Reread Luke.

    Quote
    and  same goes to Christ  and bible verses also say CHRIST IS NOT LITERAL SON OF GOD

    Reread Luke.

    Quote
    If Christians accept that Christ was a prophet  NOT son of God .


    They would stop to be Christians.

    Quote
    Now I wonder how many such " Jesus is NOT GOD/OR GOD SON" verses are there in Quran and what is their context..


    Start with Q 72, then back to the beginning of the text  (the beginning of the current text).

    Quote
    And I think it is political reason NOT THEOLOGIAL REASON  why Quran says that.


    Theology serves politics in Late Antiquity.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10870 - December 02, 2022, 08:54 PM

    Hi Altara

    That the quran was composed for political reasons and to convince Arabs to cut their political bounds with Christianity was pretty clear
    Once we know that the associators are Christians there little else left
    Then of course it is very much easier to convince Arabs that Jesus was just a prophet but leave all the rest rather than to completely reset the Arabs minds

    Indeed i Guess that this idea may have started in Yemen when the romans where trying to bring Yemen under their control
    The invocations Jesus under Abraham have not a proper Christian connotation

    Then this same idea was put into written form in order to discourage the Arabs of the east to convert to Christianity (see al numan conversion and the end of lakmids power)
    The quranic texts were targeting those Arabs

    Indeed i was trying to understand if the ideas of the pseudo clementine were randomly used among the other materials in order to build a purely political book with the necessary set of ideas or if beyond the quran there was group who genuinely were carriers of a religious idea evolved from the pseudoclemetine letters and which was only exploited by a political authority

    The individuals who may have had interest in this are either the Persians in order to weaken the romans or an independent warlord who wanted his own power and independence (Abraham in the south)

    Anyway whoever did it had the money to produce it and literati willingly serving

    Finally I was trying to understand wehere did the second wave of Arabs came from to get their hands onto the texts but being outside the influence of syriac Christianity and Roman influence in order to not understand the text

    Most of the Arabs I read about were fully in contact with biths unless the elites who approached the texts were not Arabs but others coming from far away

    The Byzantine summarised allies from all around the Persians to strike them including Turks and these may have profited of the Persian crises to become leaders and penetrate into arab territory
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10871 - December 03, 2022, 08:26 AM

    Quote
    That the quran was composed for political reasons and to convince Arabs to cut their political bounds with Christianity was pretty clear
    Once we know that the associators are Christians there little else left
    Then of course it is very much easier to convince Arabs that Jesus was just a prophet but leave all the rest rather than to completely reset the Arabs minds.


    All of this have to be demonstrated by sources properly articulated to show that this is what has happened.

    Quote
    Indeed i Guess that this idea may have started in Yemen when the romans where trying to bring Yemen under their control
    The invocations Jesus under Abraham have not a proper Christian connotation


    Possible.

    Quote
    Then this same idea was put into written form in order to discourage the Arabs of the east to convert to Christianity (see al numan conversion and the end of lakmids power) The quranic texts were targeting those Arabs.


    The Romans Arabs were already more or less Christianized.

    Quote
    Indeed i was trying to understand if the ideas of the pseudo clementine were randomly used among the other materials in order to build a purely political book with the necessary set of ideas or if beyond the quran there was group who genuinely were carriers of a religious idea evolved from the pseudo clementine letters  and which was only exploited by a political authority


    The Quran draws from all the the parabiblical literature of  the Biblical Revelation. The idea that Jesus is a mere human is not the sole idea of the Clementine novel, it is shared by multiples heterodox groups.
    What is interesting is that the novel has been translated in Syriac  a place where the text was in competition with institutionalized Christianity (Nestorian and Monophysite).

    Quote
    The individuals who may have had interest in this are either the Persians in order to weaken the romans or an independent warlord who wanted his own power and independence (Abraham in the south)


    Possible.

    Quote
    Anyway whoever did it had the money to produce it and literati willingly serving


    Sure.

    Quote
    Finally I was trying to understand where did the second wave of Arabs came from to get their hands onto the texts but being outside the influence of Syriac Christianity and Roman influence in order to not understand the text


    You need to work more to understand why they do not understand the text. And not necessarily with the premises you exposes here. It's a long trek.

    Quote
    Most of the Arabs I read about were fully in contact with both unless the elites who approached the texts were not Arabs but others coming from far away


    You need to work more. And not necessarily with the premises you exposes here. It's a long trek. Expand your views.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10872 - December 03, 2022, 12:24 PM

    Quote
    looks like specific ideas around the one god, Jesus role and prophetic status were already circulating.
    What might be the bridge between this and the Quran?


    Expand/widen your view.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10873 - December 03, 2022, 02:05 PM

    Expand/widen your view.

    What is there to expand and widen dear Altara?  In many of your posts you already gave away the plot... So i am going in a different direction

    I am curious on these questions about Quran the present book and Quran manuscripts., Clearly there is a difference between the two...

    1). How much you read / researched on those Sana Manuscripts  either translation or in Arabic??

    2).  Do you think the present book is exactly same as those manuscripts. or did it get modify?

    3). Do you think/believe  that there were manuscripts/little story books/ little sonnets/poems in some sort of pre-Islamic ARABIC language script/s floating around in that ancient middle east crescent land before these Sana manuscripts?

    4). I know you don't believe in carbon dating and I too( way back I worked in the spectroscopy part of   dating stuff). but what approximate dates should we consider on those manuscripts??

    any way I would appreciate any of your thoughts on those simple questions.. And I will get back to Jesus Christ problem in Quran as well as in NT...but that is entirely different subject and very little to do with present Islam around the globe..  and In your  earlier  response  on Christ & Quran
    .

    Start with Q 72, then back to the beginning of the text (the beginning of the current text).


      you mean surah  72 Al_Jinn??  that is strange  what is that chapter 72 Al_Jinn  has to do with Christ??..  and  why do you  say that it is "  (the beginning of the current text)...  is it not  Al-Faatiha.. the surah-1  of Quran is the "the beginning of the current text" ?? 

    or you actually saying/considering  Surah14. Ibrahim is the beginning of current test   and this present silly surah order of Quran need to be remodified to make   Surah14. Ibrahim or Abraham should be the first surah of  as "CURRENT TEXT BOOK " of a Abrahamic faith??

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10874 - December 05, 2022, 07:53 PM


    Part 2:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0zt5rOfjO0
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10875 - December 06, 2022, 11:52 AM



    I wonder whether Altara saw those you tubes of James Howard-Johnston. and read his books/publications on history., He says he has not read much on Islam and he is NOT a historian of Islam and Islam's theological literature BUT He knows and has the secret on the origins of Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10876 - December 10, 2022, 10:52 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQxKg2FtoqY
    Quote
    Jihad: The Origin of Holy War in Islam | Reuven Firestone PhD

    While there exists no evidence to date that the indigenous inhabitants of Arabia knew of holy war prior to Islam, holy war ideas and behaviors appear already among Muslims during the first generation. This book focuses on why and how such a seemingly radical development took place. Basing his hypothesis on evidence from the Qur'an and early Islamic literary sources, Firestone locates the origin of Islamic holy war and traces its evolution as a response to the changes affecting the new community of Muslims in its transition from ancient Arabian culture to the religious civilization of Islam.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10877 - December 11, 2022, 10:15 AM


     well many folks of faiths irrespective of faith   seems to be confused with these words  ......Quran....Islamic scriptures....Islam.....Muslims     they use those words wherever they like and exchange one word to other word whenever they like ..  they are specific words have specific meaning

    anyways..  Reuven Firestone did a better job with this one over that Jihad stuff..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EIqb7TOkzM

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10878 - December 12, 2022, 09:09 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtHIhi_nax0
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10879 - December 18, 2022, 01:48 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49O46azgLe8
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10880 - December 18, 2022, 11:49 PM

    Just to add that the Perspectives on Early Islam video above gets more interesting in the discussion towards the end and it's worth watching it through.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10881 - December 19, 2022, 09:36 PM

    Quote

    Just to add that the Perspectives on Early Islam video above gets more interesting in the discussion towards the end and it's worth watching it through.


      thanks zeca .. with that post i would have not seen the end of that  video .. so every one  watch that video from 1:26 to the end  of that video

    well that video with  these guys in it 
    Quote
    Dec 10, 2022
    This event was organized by the Circle for Late Antique and Medieval studies and counted with the participation of Prof. Fred Doner from U Chicago, Prof. Garth Fowden from U Cambridge and Prof. David Powers from Cornell.  The conversation was moderated by Prof Parvaneh Pourshariati from CCNY.

    I wonder why many guys in Islamic history with such background and people as Prof. Fred Doner did not look in that angle....

    well Heraclius.... that is very interesting and completely new way of looking ...."Muhammad"..  worth looking in that angle

    Quote
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius

    Heraclius[A 1] (Greek: Ἡράκλειος, translit. Hērákleios; c. 575 – 11 February 641), was Eastern Roman emperor from 610 to 641.His rise to power began in 608, when he and his father, Heraclius the Elder, the exarch of Africa, led a revolt against the unpopular usurper Phocas.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4KZriw1ANo

    I wonder Altara opinion on that  .. let me watch this o the way

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcxhxbuGmbM

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10882 - December 26, 2022, 01:03 AM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1606237250949349377?cxt=HHwWgoCw_Z-RwMosAAAA
    Quote
    The Quran was canonized around the year 650. After this standard was established, the text underwent no real changes. Any manuscript is word-by-word identical to the other, save for obvious mistakes and a few regional variants. But what about the time before this canonization?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10883 - December 26, 2022, 08:21 PM

    Reddit Q&A with Michael Pregill

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/comments/zqwrlc/i_am_a_specialist_in_late_antiquity_and_the/
    Quote
    Speaking very broadly, it is my conclusion that a very wide variety of Jewish and Christian traditions circulated in and around Arabia in Late Antiquity, and that much of this material had been assimilated and adapted in various ways in the time before Muhammad, or whoever the final editor of the Qur'an is. By and large I now see the Qur'an as a collection of older Jewish and Christian tradition that I assume was in circulation in the environment and had likely been Arabized before being incorporated into what became the canonical Qur'an.

    Quote
    In my book, I examine the qur'anic Golden Calf narratives, focusing in particular on the version in Surah 20 (vv. 83-97). The most important takeaway, I think, is my conclusion that the qur'anic understanding of the story is very close to biblical precursors, though it is informed in a subtle way by debates concerning the meaning of the story in late antique Judaism and Christianity. This is not surprising in itself, of course. The reason this argument is important is that historically, Western scholars and translators did not recognize this proximity because they were dependent on Muslim commentary tradition for their interpretation of the story.

    I would definitely locate my work in the context of the trend that has dominated some circles of Qur'anic Studies since the mid-2000s, in which we see scholars attempting to read the Qur'an as a document of late antique tradition, informed by the ideas and tendencies current before the rise of Islam, and not through the lens of tafsir and other Muslim exegetical discourses. The tendency to read the Qur'an through such a lens is so deep-rooted that until very recently certain passages were misconstrued, and certain narratives simply aligned with the general understanding promoted in Islamic tradition.

    In this specific case, the discrepancy between the two modes of reading is quite jarring. Muslim tradition holds that the Calf was actually brought to life, or made to seem to be alive, at Sinai, and that the main culprit responsible for making it was a character named al-Samiri, the "Samaritan." This is the standard interpretation of the story in the tafsir, in many other exegetical traditions in Islam, and in the vast majority of Western commentaries and translations right up to the time I wrote my dissertation around 2007. The dissertation shows that this interpretation of the story is probably wrong, though it was not until I wrote my book that I was able to advance a coherent alternative interpretation of the qur'anic narrative and explain some of the most puzzling cruxes in the Surah 20 narrative in particular.

    There are a number of other takeaway I'd want to highlight as well, though I'll hold off as this reply has gotten quite long! One thing I'd note is that there are complex and interesting reasons for the historical tendency to read the Qur'an through tafsir, as well as for seeing many of the biblical or quasi-biblical traditions therein as ultimately derived from rabbinic tradition (a claim that was/is often made about the qur'anic Calf story). This is the subject of my new book project.

    Quote
    Hello! A very complicated question. I have an article coming out next year on the question of authorship and the Qur'an in which I address the claims of Tesei (and with him Guillaume Dye and Stephen Shoemaker) about the late or "post-Muhammadan" redaction of material into what became the canonical Qur'an. Tesei's work is fascinating - I assume we are both talking about his 2021 article "The Qur'an(s) in Context(s)." Something I think worth underscoring is that he concludes not only that some (actually, much) of the Qur'an is late and Palestinian, but that some of it can be identified as authentically early, and corresponding to a genuinely pagan Arab milieu. That is, there is essentially an Arabian Qur'an that stems from a milieu that is what the Islamic sources described, and then a secondary layer than stems from the period and milieu of the Arab conquests. Dye and Shoemaker say much the same thing.

    As much as I respect these scholars - and I have learned a lot from Shoemaker in particular - I take the exact opposite approach. Rather than assume that a late stratum of qur'anic material comes from outside Arabia, I would favor the idea that this material is in fact genuinely Arabian, but that the Arabian milieu was much more monotheistic than we generally can conclude from the traditional sources. It is easier for me to accept that there were circles of learned Jews and Christians in Arabia whose translations and adaptations of biblical and parabiblical material were known in the Hijaz and assimilated into what became the canonical Qur'an than it is for me to accept that the qur'anic corpus emerges during the Arab conquests under the later Rashidun or early Umayyad caliphate. Much more to say about this but this is my position.

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    >Is singular authorship or composite authorship more probable in the case of the Qur'an?

    I tend to favor the idea that the corpus as we have it is mainly or totally the work of a single compiler whom I tend to identify as the qur'anic prophet. I hesitate to call that person 'Muhammad' because that name carries a whole host of associations and presuppositions based on the traditional sources that may or may not apply.

    2. I actually don't have a solid opinion on this. I will say that when people associate the Qur'an with Abd al-Malik and al-Hajjaj, the implication is that the canon was fluid before then. If the crux of the question is 'when was the canon finalized/stabilized' I tend to favor an earlier date closer to the beginning of the Arab conquests. My intuition is that it would have been very difficult to assert the authority of a text that only came together around the time of the Second Fitnah. Then again, I do wonder how much of the Qur'an was really in wide circulation at the time of the beginning of the conquests. You can see from this answer that I'm ambivalent and undecided, but again I tend to think the canon stabilized earlier, certainly by 650 as the manuscript people seem to assert these days.

    3. Not sure precisely what you're asking here since compilation implies a process of stabilization of something that was quite possibly fluid beforehand? Otherwise what was the point of compilation Smiley I guess I might infer that you're asking if the orally transmitted Qur'an was fluid and if that fluidity was curtailed by compilation of a written text. I am really not sure. My general position tends to be that the textus receptus canonizes a text that was promulgated in oral form by the qur'anic prophet, more or less coinciding with the traditional dates ascribed to the historical Muhammad. Was everything that 'Muhammad' revealed preserved in the Qur'an? Who knows. Was a lot of stuff added after, say in the process of canonization? I guess that's possible but I'm skeptical. I think what was promulgated in the mushaf must have had to seem convincingly authoritative to the Companions, assuming you accept the idea that the qur'anic prophet actually had followers who accepted and promoted his teachings when they went out and conquered much of the Near East.

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    Maybe this is not your specific interest here but for me the question always comes back to that of whether the material in the Qur'an should authentically be associated with "Muhammad" or whatever we want to call the qur'anic prophet or if it could have arisen later. My tendency again is to see the qur'anic material by and large assembled and revealed by the historical prophet, and if we want to talk about sources, it makes sense to look backwards, to the time predating the historical prophet, and not so much forwards to the time after.

    But I could be wrong. I think my answers to a lot of the questions I'm being asked here probably betrays my very strong agnosticism on many issues.

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    Thanks for clarifying once again, I understand your point better now. I just do not know if we have any standard by which we can definitively judge how much of the canonical Qur'an was actually revealed by the qur'anic prophet - it is certainly feasible that there could have been interpolations and variations. I just think that the models of scholars like Shoemaker, Dye, Tesei etc., where a very large amount of qur'anic material originates in Palestine-Syria during and after the Arab conquests, just seems unrealistic to me for a number of reasons.

    It seems like the consensus of the manuscript specialists is that the canonical Qur'an is stabilized by around 650. Assuming that we can trust that the Arab expansion into Palestine-Syria occurred around 632, the conventional death date of Muhammad, and that *some* qur'anic material originated in Arabia, it just seems like a very narrow window (< 20 years) for new qur'anic material to have been generated through the adaptation and Arabization of monotheistic traditions from that new arena. It just seems more likely to me that Palestinian-Syrian traditions percolated into the Hijaz at an earlier phase of development and were adapted and integrated into the Qur'an prior to and during the career of the historical prophet.

    Given the consensus on the manuscript tradition stabilizing by the mid-7th century, what do we make of seemingly variant attestations of qur'anic material like the coin you mention? The Dome of the Rock is another obvious example. It seems to me that a more plausible explanation is that the Qur'an could be cited somewhat fluidly in inscriptional contexts? This seems more logical than suggesting that these inscriptions point to a late date of stabilization of the text.

    By the way, this also points to a phenomenon that people seldom seem to talk about, which is that even if the qur'anic text itself is being stabilized early, how much access to that text did Muslims have? Meaning, how widely distributed was the official mushaf? Richard Bulliet always emphasizes that hadith was a much more accessible means of religious knowledge for converts, especially converts at the fringes of the Islamic empire, than the Qur'an. How many huffaz were available in any given locality in the 7th century? How many complete masahif? In an environment in which there was no institutional structure that guided conversion and catechism, what does the promulgation of the official text, or basic qur'anic education, even look like?

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    Yeah, Van Putten's work is what I am mainly thinking about here. It is hard to argue with the evidence as he marshals it, though Shoemaker would contest the reliability of the chronology. Paleographic and manuscript work is so recherche that it's hard even for specialists in other fields to really control the material and evaluate it independently. I am certainly not qualified to argue with the Van Puttens and Deroches of the world. Again, my inclination is to see the canon as emerging early, but with the caveat that this has almost no bearing on the question of the Qur'an's origins except to say that the canon was likely stabilized around 650. But that tells us nothing about what the "pre-Muhammadan" text was or where it came from.

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    Essentially what I argue here is that the engagement with the Mishnah reflected in this surah seems to be informed by a very high degree of what we might term scriptural literacy (I prefer the term "scriptural virtuosity"), much more than what we could plausibly associate with the Muhammad portrayed by the Islamic tradition. The engagement and appropriation of the mishnaic tradition is nimble, well informed, and strategic.

    I am largely agnostic about the implications of this observation in that article, but I have another article coming out next year in which I address the question of qur'anic authorship more broadly. There I argue that the mishnaic citation is part of a larger phenomenon of adapting and rewriting literary sources in the Qur'an, an important but largely overlooked aspect of qur'anic intertextuality.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10884 - December 28, 2022, 01:37 PM

    A Summary of the Work of Inârah 2007–2022

    https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-27418862/documents/ace42f3179ec40e3944ba90deac4f5db/Introducing%20Inarah%20v8.pdf
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    Inârah applies the historical-critical method to all facts of early Islamic history and the Qur’an. The early history of Islam handed down in the traditional literature cannot be regarded as a historical source, but as a literary product of the time in which it was written for specific political, theological, literary or other reasons.

    In the light of this research, the emergence of the Islamic religion presents itself as a process that took place over more than two centuries. The concentration of power in the Arab empire, the beginning of the Arabic calendar, the reconstruction, repurposing and construction of sacred buildings such as the Basilica of St John, the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus, the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, the so-called Prophet’s Mosque in Medina, and the Kaaba in Mecca, all formed part of the evolution of the Islamic religion in the Middle Ages.

    The writing and use of the Qur’an, the Islamic calendar, the writing of a life history of the Arab Prophet, the establishment of a pilgrimage system in Mecca, the development of traditional literature and Islamic law, are all elements of the new world religion for which researchers of Inârah have identified origins different from those claimed by traditional literature.

    The early history of the Arab Empire presents itself as a process of the creation of an imperial faith by the elite of that Empire, in which syncretic – predominantly Christian, but also Judaic, Buddhist and other elements – were transformed into a new religion, in opposition to those of their competitors, such as Byzantium and Persia.

    Some of the major findings, together with detailed references, are presented below.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10885 - December 28, 2022, 04:44 PM

    Tommaso Tesei - Echoes of Pseudepigrapha in the Qur'ān

    https://www.academia.edu/45649786/_Echoes_of_Pseudepigrapha_in_the_Qurān_uncorrected_proofs_
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    Tommaso Tesei addresses questions of quranic intertextuality which contribute to clarifying, among other things, the Qur’ān’s undeniably scribal nature. The first part of this article focusses on Enochic elements (drawn from pseudepigraphical literature) in the quranic corpus. Specifically, it deals with the quranic characters of Idrīs and ‘Uzayr and the fallen-angels – traditions the echoes of which can be heard in the Qur’ān. Did the people in the Qur’ān’s environment know those books which we tend categorise under the label of ‘Pseudepigrapha’ directly? Or did they merely encounter themes and motifs which happened to trace back to pseudepigraphical literature?

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    From the general (and incomplete) overview that I attempted to provide in this article it appears that stories, motifs, and possibly even books from the corpus of pseudepigraphical literature were known in the social and cultural context(s) from which the Qur’ān emerged. Retracing a history of transmission of pseudepigrapha to the Qur’ān’s environment appears a highly problematic task that brings into play more general questions still awaiting an answer. For instance, intertextualities between pseudepigraphical writings and the Qur’ān raise the question about the socio-religious identities of the communities in the environments from which the Arabic scripture emerged. The notorious elusiveness that surrounds the Islamic origins, as well as the unresolved scholarly debate about the processes of canonisation of the quranic corpus, unavoidably complicate the situation.  At the present stage of the investigation, determining how traditions from the pseudepigraphical corpus reached the original Qur’ān’s cradle is an unsolvable question. At the same time, revealing the literary connections between pseudepigrapha and Qur’ān retraces the legacy of pseudepigrapha in Late Antiquity and enriches the debate about the place of the Qur’ān in the late antique culture. Any future extensive study of pseudepigrapha in the Qur’ān cannot be disjoined from the parallel analysis of how these ancient texts were received by other religious communities during Late Antiquity.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10886 - December 28, 2022, 05:25 PM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - The seed of Abraham: Gentile ethnicity in early Christian texts and the Quran

    https://www.academia.edu/93008957/The_seed_of_Abraham_Gentile_ethnicity_in_early_Christian_texts_and_the_Quran
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10887 - December 28, 2022, 05:49 PM

    Herbert Berg and Sarah Rollens - The historical Muhammad and the historical Jesus: A comparison of scholarly reinventions and reinterpretations

    https://www.academia.edu/34133690/The_historical_Muhammad_and_the_historical_Jesus_A_comparison_of_scholarly_reinventions_and_reinterpretations
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    1. We must ask ourselves, “Is it really harder to believe that the authors wrote primarily theological texts, than it is to believe that they wrote cryptic, but historical, texts — texts that only 20th and 21st century scholars (but not apparently later believers and the authors themselves) understood?”

    2. Our sources (especially ones produced with such an ideological or theological agenda) tell us more about those who actually wrote them — what they believed, what they wanted to believe — than they do about what they purport to be about.

    3. Regardless of any historical facts uncovered by historical Jesus scholarship or historical Muhammad scholarship, these individuals did not cause or found the religious movements that claim them as founders. To make that claim is to make the same claim the early communities that produced our main sources did, and so to share in large measure their theological perspective.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10888 - December 28, 2022, 07:27 PM

    Talk by Herbert Berg starting at about 65 minutes into the video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wR-QhIVs9E
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    A discussion with Robert Price PhD, independent scholar and author of Deconstructing Jesus and The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man; Mike Pytlik PhD, director of judaic studies, Oakland University; Herbert Berg PhD, professor of philosophy and religion, University of North Carolina-Wilmington and author of The Development of Exegesis in Early Islam: The Debate over the Authenticity of Muslim Literature.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10889 - December 29, 2022, 04:51 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U40VWMDW8Fo
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    In this episode of It's Useful to Know, Dr. Jack Tannous speaks about the understudied religious experience of "simple believers” in the medieval Middle East, most of whom were illiterate. While elite Christians and Muslims focused on reading and writing texts, simple believers experienced religion through their senses and community. Studying their religious experience, Dr. Tannous shows, helps us understand how fluid religious boundaries could be in this period.

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