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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10830 - October 25, 2022, 09:20 AM

    How can Shoemaker take a guy like Beck seriously? My only issue is this. And this corroborates more and more my reading of his book. He has become a Dye fan as all what he develops are Dye's ideas, including collective memory being the way of transmission of the Quran. All the ideas of his book are more or less ideas that Dye has already said in French but never deepened. Dye has hypnotized and totally convinced him about those ideas and now they are all in English.
    Well...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10831 - October 28, 2022, 02:08 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yHAG3mKAFE
    Quote
    I interview James Howard-Johnston on the backstory of Islam. What events lead up to the rise of Islam and was the apocalyptic atmosphere already there before Muhammad rose to power.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10832 - October 28, 2022, 04:44 PM


     interesting video  on "WHO MUHAMMAD WAS" .. and very interesting interview

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10833 - October 29, 2022, 09:19 PM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/GhaffarZishan/status/1581005376237207557?cxt=HHwWioDQ6euA7vArAAAA
    Quote
    Some of the presentations at our Byzantine Qur'an conference are online now: Why are Adam and David called khalifa? Is there an anti-imperial discourse in the Qur'an?


    Nicolai Sinai was one of the speakers:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TqocrII0gY
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10834 - October 29, 2022, 09:28 PM

    James Howard-Johnston
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LO-cX_f_Xs
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10835 - October 30, 2022, 01:43 PM

    Nestor Kavvadas - Defining 'Romans' in the Late Antique Near East
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8iQ95pPo14
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10836 - October 30, 2022, 01:53 PM

    Islamic Origins blog - The New Historiography of Islamic Origins: A Review of Some Recent Trends in the Field

    https://islamicorigins.com/the-new-historiography-of-islamic-origins/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10837 - October 30, 2022, 05:29 PM


    Nicolai Sinai was one of the speakers

    Sinai cannot anymore ignore that his stance is directly attacked (Dye and Shoemaker) he cannot make the economy to not respond to them anymore, as he is lengthily quoted by them.
    He could stay silencer, of course. But it would be not comprehensible by the rest of scholarship.

    1'21: It is not in 'some verses' that Christianity is addressed. It is  already rather quickly at the beginning (which are the short suras for me...) of the corpus, pointing what is the target of theses texts in Arabic.
    After almost 800 verses (from the beginning, therefore the end of the corpus today), the author(s) are obliged one way or another to say something, i.e., what all this stuff is all about and where it leads.
    Q 72: 1-5 :
    -1- Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Quran). They said, We
    have really heard a wonderful Recital!
    -2- It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein: We shall not join (in worship) any
    (gods) with our Lord.
    -3- And exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.
    -4- There were some foolish ones among us, who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah;
    -5- But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that is untrue against Allah.

    We know that there is no Christianity in 'Mecca'. Because there is no record anywhere in the different administrations of Christianity installed in this part of the Peninsula. Yemen yes, Qatar yes. 'Hijaz' no. The word is even unknown (it emerges after Islam...) No one has bothered to name this area... because there is nothing to name.
    This passage Q 72: 1-5, summarizes the program that will be applied in the rest of the text (until sura 1) A subtle and constant deconstruction, therefore destruction of the foundations of  (the key point) of Christian theology to lower the figure of Christ to a human figure. Plus, the anti Jewish polemics are Christian ones and they are there to make sympathetic to the audience to what says the text. The presence of those one designates who is the target of the text : Arab Christians and no one else.

    5' : he still try to talk about missionaries, monks, etc.  in the Hijaz. And the cemetery of the Christians (hadith) … Well... Forced and coerced, he admits that the 'commercial hub' of 'Mecca' has no reality but the Muslim narrative paradigm still, for him, operates.

    8' " The Quran does not contain complex summaries of Christian theological positions"  It is not his purpose and there is not need of this to do what he wants to do (see above) . Sinai wants to suggest that the  Christian substrate is minimum and does not really matter. It matters, because the  readers of the  Quranic texts are Christians, but he will (never) admits it.

    9' "Would fit a scenario of a missionary exposure ' Hahaha! Ghost missionaries. He has nothing to ground them but he continues!!! I know Sinai (by his articles...) he will says it until he dies.

    To be continued...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10838 - October 30, 2022, 06:41 PM

    .............................

    1'21: It is not in 'some verses' that Christianity is addressed. It is  already rather quickly at the beginning (which are the short suras for me...) of the corpus, pointing what is the target of theses texts in Arabic.
    After almost 800 verses (from the beginning, therefore the end of the corpus today), the author(s) are obliged one way or another to say something, i.e., what all this stuff is all about and where it leads.
    Quote
    Q 72: 1-5 :
    -1- Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Quran). They said, We
    have really heard a wonderful Recital!
    -2- It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein: We shall not join (in worship) any
    (gods) with our Lord.
    -3- And exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.
    -4- There were some foolish ones among us, who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah;
    -5- But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that is untrue against Allah.


    We know that there is no Christianity in 'Mecca'. Because there is no record anywhere in the different administrations of Christianity installed in this part of the Peninsula. Yemen yes, Qatar yes. 'Hijaz' no. The word is even unknown (it emerges after Islam...) No one has bothered to name this area... because there is nothing to name.
    ....

    To be continued...

    glad to read  this((with a bit of modification))    '

    "We know that there was  no  Mecca before Islam, The word is even unknown.,  in fact it emerges after Islam"  ..
     
    I fully agree with that

    On that question to you.,   was there a word "Muhammad" before Islam ., I mean before year 570 ?? 

    and  I wonder whether you watched the video of in zeca post
      where  Howard-Johnston where in his story, he claims that Persian King  Khosrow of Sasanian Empire was  the alleged Prophet of Islam  Muhammad of early Islam

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khosrow_II

    As you know Khosrows ruled large area of fertile crescent of middle east of that time

     

    I wonder whether some one or himself changed his name  Khosrow Parviz to  Muhammad??

    That guy was Grand son of   Khosrow_I., 

     Anyways please watch that video please watch carefully between 30mts to 60 mts.. ..  Khosrow  the 2nd...??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10839 - October 30, 2022, 09:14 PM

    Quote
    was there a word "Muhammad" before Islam ., I mean before year 570 ??


    In the Peninsula (south). There's very few inscriptions with  the root ḥmd not dated:
    Dost, PhD dissertation "An Arabian Qur’ān : Towards A Theory Of Peninsular Origins", 2017, p.86

    Quote
    I wonder whether some one or himself changed his name  Khosrow Parviz to  Muhammad?? Khosrow  the 2nd...??


    Err... very (to say the least)  highly speculative. Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10840 - October 31, 2022, 08:05 AM


    Quote
    yeez Q:  was there a word "Muhammad" before Islam ., I mean before year 570 ??

    In the Peninsula (south). There's very few inscriptions with  the root ḥmd not dated:
    Dost, PhD dissertation "An Arabian Qur’ān : Towards A Theory Of Peninsular Origins", 2017, p.86

    thanks for the link of Suleyman Dost Ph. D. Thesis.. I actually like to read these Ph. d thesis  over books on Islam ., It is worth scanning through ., But I guess my question was different ., and I will rephrase the question again..

    And after doing all that Ph. D. on early Islam., I don't think  Suleyman Dost understands origins of Quran/Islam/Muhammad  etc..etc..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT6uuRgREbg

    and that video is clear cut evidence of that
    Quote
    Quote
    yeezQ:I wonder whether some one or himself changed his name  Khosrow Parviz to  Muhammad?? Khosrow  the 2nd...??

    Err... very (to say the least)  highly speculative. Cheesy

    So you are saying that story of  Howard Johnston  in that video ......... Khosrow Parviz( Khosrow-2) being   Muhammad PBUH of Islam .........  is nonsense

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10841 - October 31, 2022, 10:42 AM

    so back to the question to altara

    .........., But I guess my question was different ., and I will rephrase the question again..

    Now how do I rephrase the question on the word "Muhammad"? .. well the question was

    Quote
    yeez Q:  was there a word "Muhammad" before Islam ., I mean before year 570 ??

    altara ANS:  In the Peninsula (south). There's very few inscriptions with  the root ḥmd not dated:.....


    well That is NOT really my interest., I consider connecting the Muhammad ..THE LIVINF LEGEND OF ISLAM with some root word ...  hmd.... mhd..hamad... whatever  etc.....etc.. is nonsense..

    ,,,,it is well known even before Islam  Arabic root word “حمد” (HMD) means: cheer, acclaim, praise,  along with its synonym   “هلل”, commend, laud, telling one's rosary, thankful, appreciate, speak favourably of, win with affection of, praise worthy   etc..etc...

    but we are not talking about  root words of Arabic...  BUT A PERSON AND HIS NAME BEING "MUHAMMAD".,   I am sure every reader of Quran knows that .,  Quranic words we see in  verses  3:144, 33:40 and 48:29,‘Muhammadun’  and in the verse 47:2    ‘Muhammadin’   are just adjectives the Arabic  names ...

    So question was .. In the middle east. of that time during the roman rule ....   was there any person in the history of middle east whose name was Muhammad before the year 570...??

    uncle wiki says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_(name)

    Quote
    Muhammad (Arabic: مُحَمَّد, romanized: Muḥammad), also spelled Muhammed or Muhamad or Mohammad or Mohammed or Mohamed or in a variety of other ways, is an Arabic given male name literally meaning 'Praiseworthy'. The name comes from the passive participle of the Arabic verb ḥammada (حَمَّدَ), meaning 'to praise', which itself comes from the triconsonantal Semitic root Ḥ-M-D. Believed to be the most popular name in the world, by 2014 it was estimated to have been given to 150 million men and boys.[2]

    The name is banned for newborn children, in the Xinjiang region of China since 2017,[3] as well as for the Ahmadi community in Pakistan.[4]


    well I wonder ..all that what wrote is more confusing?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10842 - November 01, 2022, 03:54 PM

    Quote
    So question was .. In the middle east. of that time during the roman rule ....   was there any person in the history of middle east whose name was Muhammad before the year 570...??


    To my knowledge, no.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10843 - November 05, 2022, 09:42 PM

    Javad Hashmi - Oxford Study Sheds Light on Muhammad’s ‘Underage’ Wife Aisha

    https://newlinesmag.com/essays/oxford-study-sheds-light-on-muhammads-underage-wife-aisha/

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10844 - November 05, 2022, 09:45 PM

    Joshua Little - Why I Studied the Aisha Hadith for my PhD: Some Reflections on Religious Interpretation, Sunni Orthodoxy, and Islamophobia

    https://islamicorigins.com/why-i-studied-the-aisha-hadith/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10845 - November 05, 2022, 10:17 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn-aV7_PY9w
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10846 - November 05, 2022, 10:28 PM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1586320022829416448?cxt=HHwWgICyzf7p3oMsAAAA
    Quote
    It may not look like it, but the script of this inscription is the script that would eventually evolve to become the modern Arabic script. This is the Nabataean Aramaic script, and I wanted to do a little thread on the evolution of its letter shapes.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10847 - November 05, 2022, 10:50 PM

     
    Javad Hashmi - Oxford Study Sheds Light on Muhammad’s ‘Underage’ Wife Aisha

    https://newlinesmag.com/essays/oxford-study-sheds-light-on-muhammads-underage-wife-aisha/


     THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH THAT FELLOW

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgj5eDAIi7I

    That young Pakistani man is WASTING HIS TIME WITH SILLY FAITH AND FAITH BOOKS..  He is a medical doctor and has huge potential in the country he is living , And he is running around stupid silly religious books??   He could do wonders in medical field.... fool wasting his time, and wasting his background in Medicine and  doing some stupid Ph. D.  in nutty useless religious of books thar were written some 1000 years ago.. That too on Aisha  and Muhammad.,    A FICTITIOUS  STORY CHARACTERS OF ISLAM??

    rubbish article ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10848 - November 23, 2022, 04:43 PM

    Robert Hoyland - The Language of the Qur'an and Rip van Winkle

    https://www.academia.edu/35409181/The_Language_of_the_Quran_and_Rip_van_Winkle
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10849 - November 23, 2022, 04:46 PM

    Robert Hoyland - 'Arabi and a'jami in the Qur'an: the language of Muhammad's revelation

    https://www.academia.edu/83136398/Arabi_and_ajami_in_the_Quran_the_language_of_Muhammads_revelation
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10850 - November 23, 2022, 05:41 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-boHQMLJj0Y
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10851 - November 24, 2022, 07:29 AM

    Thanks to Zeca for sharing this interesting article : The New Historiography of Islamic Origins: A Review of Some Recent Trends in the Field.
    I posted it on Reddit and got this response from Juan Cole:

    "This is a fine and detailed look at how contemporary academics view the later Muslim sources on early Islam. It seems to me, however, flawed in two ways. It does not attend to how Cook and Crone drastically revised their views over time. It focuses solely on the issue of views of the later sources, but all historians believe you should treat late sources carefully. This focus allows the author to group all these writers together as stemming from a revisionist 'tradition.' But other theses of the revisionists such as the lateness of the Quran, the origins of Islam in Jordan or Palestine, an Aramaic substrate for quranic Arabic, or the reliability of early Christian accounts of Islam, are ignored. That is why he is confused about my seeming to accept a revisionist school while being critical of it. What I accept is the universal historians' precept that late sources are often unreliable. I reject almost everything else the revisionists propose."


      J.J Little , the author of the article heard about it,and came with this reply to Juan Cole's comment:

    "I respect Prof. Cole, but I strongly disagree with his assessment of my article.

    Firstly, the broader context of my article. Many people claim that Hagarism is total rubbish, completely discredited, etc.; I hear this all the time. This is clearly false (i.e., a huge exaggeration), and the point of this article was to push back against this popular narrative by documenting some of the major influences that Hagarism still exerts, in terms of both methodology and historical reconstruction, upon the field of Islamic origins. Scholars like Fred Donner, Stephen Shoemaker, and Sean Anthony have already openly acknowledged this influence and impact—I am merely providing some details.

    Now to Cole’s comments here:

    “It [i.e., the article] does not attend to how Cook and Crone drastically revised their views over time.”

    Firstly, this is irrelevant to the article: I am documenting a specific set of approaches and conclusions in Hagarism that have become generalised in the field. I made that clear in the article. I am not arguing that all or most of the views expressed in Hagarism are still correct, or anything like that, for which the authors’ revisions would be relevant.

    Secondly, I am not aware that Crone and Cook revised their views on the specific ideas discussed here—on the contrary, these recur in their later works. So, again, not relevant.

    Thirdly, I did in fact acknowledge that Crone and Cook’s views shifted on some issues—e.g., on the early canonisation of the Quran: “although even Crone and Cook themselves came to adopt this position.”

    “It [i.e., the article] focuses solely on the issue of views of the later sources, but all historians believe you should treat late sources carefully.”

    Firstly, this seems like an understatement: historians of Islamic origins are now quite skeptical (either rejecting or else treating as suspect almost all Hadith, etc.), not merely ‘careful’ (an adjective that could probably even apply to the likes of W. M Watt), as I document in detail.

    Secondly, this common skepticism in Islamic origins is specifically the result of Hagarism’s influence, as I document in the article, and as has been acknowledged by other historians. This alone would validate my thesis of Hagarism’s enduring influence.

    Thirdly, the statement that my article “focuses solely on the issue of views of the later sources” is straightforwardly untrue. I point not just to methodological skepticism, but also to: the prioritisation of early non-Muslim and proto-Islamic sources; the pan-Abrahamitic thesis; the (revival of the) apocalyptic thesis; the lateness of muslim and ʾislām as primary self-identifiers; and the lateness of a discrete religious identity. This is a very specific set of tendencies that were notably disseminated/revived by—or in some cases originated with—Hagarism.

    “This focus allows the author to group all these writers together as stemming from a revisionist 'tradition.' But other theses of the revisionists such as the lateness of the Quran, the origins of Islam in Jordan or Palestine, an Aramaic substrate for quranic Arabic, or the reliability of early Christian accounts of Islam, are ignored.”

    Again, this just seems orthogonal to the aim of the article. The article is saying: Hagarism has had a major impact on the field (in terms of both skeptical methodology and revisionist conclusions) and here are various specific examples in recent scholarship. The article is not saying: all of Hagarism’s views are correct and widespread in current scholarship; all revisionism is correct and widespread in current scholarship; etc. Since I am not saying anything like that, what is the relevance of other revisionist theses (including some of the other views expounded in Hagarism)’s not being widespread? Again, I feel like I was clear in my article: I am talking about a very specific set of tendencies or trends.

    “That is why he is confused about my seeming to accept a revisionist school while being critical of it. What I accept is the universal historians' precept that late sources are often unreliable. I reject almost everything else the revisionists propose.”

    With all due respect, I think—as I said in the article—that Cole does not appreciate the ultimate influences upon his work. I document several specific correspondences between his views and those of Hagarism and Hagarism-influenced scholarship at the end of the article, the genealogy of which is expounded in the entire preceding article.

    Cole is quite skeptical (even if idiosyncratically, in my opinion) and definitely revisionist. The fact that he doesn’t accept an alternative proto-Islamic sacred geography, or the late canonisation of the Quran, etc., is totally irrelevant. There are several competing strands of revisionism, as was humorously pointed out by Walid Saleh in a famous review: their mutual disagreement doesn’t make each not revisionist.

    Let me put it another way: if Donner is a revisionist, and Cole accepts and restates Donner’s core revisionist thesis, it just follows therefrom that Cole is a revisionist. Maybe he is a moderate revisionist (compared to Crone or compared to Inarah crackpots)—but he is a revisionist none the less.

    Anyway, those are my immediate thoughts. Again, I respect Prof. Cole and wish him well!

    ~ J.J.L"


    WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THESE COMMENTS?
    HOW SHOULD WE LOOK UPON COOK AND CRONE'S HAGARISM?

    https://islamicorigins.com/the-new-historiography-of-islamic-origins/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10852 - November 24, 2022, 11:01 AM

    hello Asbjoern1958   .. glad to read through your posts/thoughts here in CEMB ., But here you are giving too much importance to a FAITH HEAD who boast himself as historian of Islam ., well HE MAY BE HISTORIAN ON STORIES OF ISLAM THAT COMES OUT OF HADITH   but irrespective of his academic position in AMRIKA  HE IS NOT HISTORIAN IN ORIGNS OF QURAN AND EARLY ISLAM
    Thanks to Zeca for sharing this interesting article :
    Quote
    The New Historiography of Islamic Origins: A Review of Some Recent Trends in the Field.
    I posted it on Reddit and got this response from Juan Cole
    :


    "This is a fine and detailed look at how contemporary academics view the later Muslim sources on early Islam. It seems to me, however, flawed in two ways. It does not attend to how Cook and Crone drastically revised their views over time. It focuses solely on the issue of views of the later sources, but all historians believe you should treat late sources carefully. This focus allows the author to group all these writers together as stemming from a revisionist 'tradition.' But other theses of the revisionists such as the lateness of the Quran, the origins of Islam in Jordan or Palestine, an Aramaic substrate for quranic Arabic, or the reliability of early Christian accounts of Islam, are ignored. That is why he is confused about my seeming to accept a revisionist school while being critical of it. What I accept is the universal historians' precept that late sources are often unreliable. I reject almost everything else the revisionists propose."


      J.J Little , the author of the article heard about it,and came with this reply to Juan Cole's comment:

    "I respect Prof. Cole, but I strongly disagree with his assessment of my article.

    Firstly, the broader context of my article. Many people claim that Hagarism is total rubbish, completely discredited, etc.; I hear this all the time. This is clearly false (i.e., a huge exaggeration), and the point of this article was to push back against this popular narrative by documenting some of the major influences that Hagarism still exerts, in terms of both methodology and historical reconstruction, upon the field of Islamic origins. Scholars like Fred Donner, Stephen Shoemaker, and Sean Anthony have already openly acknowledged this influence and impact—I am merely providing some details.

    Now to Cole’s comments here:

    “It [i.e., the article] does not attend to how Cook and Crone drastically revised their views over time.”

    Firstly, this is irrelevant to the article: I am documenting a specific set of approaches and conclusions in Hagarism that have become generalised in the field. I made that clear in the article. I am not arguing that all or most of the views expressed in Hagarism are still correct, or anything like that, for which the authors’ revisions would be relevant.

    Secondly, I am not aware that Crone and Cook revised their views on the specific ideas discussed here—on the contrary, these recur in their later works. So, again, not relevant.

    Thirdly, I did in fact acknowledge that Crone and Cook’s views shifted on some issues—e.g., on the early canonisation of the Quran: “although even Crone and Cook themselves came to adopt this position.”

    “It [i.e., the article] focuses solely on the issue of views of the later sources, but all historians believe you should treat late sources carefully.”

    Firstly, this seems like an understatement: historians of Islamic origins are now quite skeptical (either rejecting or else treating as suspect almost all Hadith, etc.), not merely ‘careful’ (an adjective that could probably even apply to the likes of W. M Watt), as I document in detail.

    Secondly, this common skepticism in Islamic origins is specifically the result of Hagarism’s influence, as I document in the article, and as has been acknowledged by other historians. This alone would validate my thesis of Hagarism’s enduring influence.

    Thirdly, the statement that my article “focuses solely on the issue of views of the later sources” is straightforwardly untrue. I point not just to methodological skepticism, but also to: the prioritisation of early non-Muslim and proto-Islamic sources; the pan-Abrahamitic thesis; the (revival of the) apocalyptic thesis; the lateness of muslim and ʾislām as primary self-identifiers; and the lateness of a discrete religious identity. This is a very specific set of tendencies that were notably disseminated/revived by—or in some cases originated with—Hagarism.

    “This focus allows the author to group all these writers together as stemming from a revisionist 'tradition.' But other theses of the revisionists such as the lateness of the Quran, the origins of Islam in Jordan or Palestine, an Aramaic substrate for quranic Arabic, or the reliability of early Christian accounts of Islam, are ignored.”

    Again, this just seems orthogonal to the aim of the article. The article is saying: Hagarism has had a major impact on the field (in terms of both skeptical methodology and revisionist conclusions) and here are various specific examples in recent scholarship. The article is not saying: all of Hagarism’s views are correct and widespread in current scholarship; all revisionism is correct and widespread in current scholarship; etc. Since I am not saying anything like that, what is the relevance of other revisionist theses (including some of the other views expounded in Hagarism)’s not being widespread? Again, I feel like I was clear in my article: I am talking about a very specific set of tendencies or trends.

    “That is why he is confused about my seeming to accept a revisionist school while being critical of it. What I accept is the universal historians' precept that late sources are often unreliable. I reject almost everything else the revisionists propose.”

    With all due respect, I think—as I said in the article—that Cole does not appreciate the ultimate influences upon his work. I document several specific correspondences between his views and those of Hagarism and Hagarism-influenced scholarship at the end of the article, the genealogy of which is expounded in the entire preceding article.

    Cole is quite skeptical (even if idiosyncratically, in my opinion) and definitely revisionist. The fact that he doesn’t accept an alternative proto-Islamic sacred geography, or the late canonisation of the Quran, etc., is totally irrelevant. There are several competing strands of revisionism, as was humorously pointed out by Walid Saleh in a famous review: their mutual disagreement doesn’t make each not revisionist.

    Let me put it another way: if Donner is a revisionist, and Cole accepts and restates Donner’s core revisionist thesis, it just follows therefrom that Cole is a revisionist. Maybe he is a moderate revisionist (compared to Crone or compared to Inarah crackpots)—but he is a revisionist none the less.

    Anyway, those are my immediate thoughts. Again, I respect Prof. Cole and wish him well!

    ~ J.J.L"


    WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THESE COMMENTS?
    HOW SHOULD WE LOOK UPON COOK AND CRONE'S HAGARISM?


    https://islamicorigins.com/the-new-historiography-of-islamic-origins/


    On that Cook and late  Patricia  hagarism .. Sure our Altara will have better answer than anyone else in this forum..  lol...  And I would like to say here

    A FAITH HEAD CAN NEVER BE AN OBECTIVE HISTORIAN OF ANY FAITH.. HIS FAITH OR OTHER FAITHS .. his history is subjective to his beliefs and belief system..

     How  can you be an objective historian  of Islam when   funds flow from Saudi/Pakistani connections   personal as well as governmental ((80's 90's and probably even now)) for your history investigations??

    with best wishes...
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10853 - November 25, 2022, 02:42 PM

    Thanks for your comment, yeezevee.
    Juan Cole made this reply today. He seems not interested in discussing the facts around Hagarism and the early non- Muslim sources:

    "Well, I laud Dr. Little's already important contributions to the field and appreciate his measured and informed reply. It is a real pleasure to have this exchange. I predict a bright future. cheers _ Juan"


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10854 - November 25, 2022, 03:56 PM

    Thanks for your comment, yeezevee.
    Juan Cole made this reply today. He seems not interested in discussing the facts around Hagarism and the early non- Muslim sources:

    any link on that??

    Quote
    "Well, I laud Dr. Little's already important contributions to the field and appreciate his measured and informed reply. It is a real pleasure to have this exchange. I predict a bright future. cheers _ Juan"


     if that is a comment from Juan"., well .... THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT .

    Off course Juan Cole is NOT  interested in Islamic history ...  HE IS NOT A HISTORIAN.. he is actually a great guy and SOCIAL WORKER grew up  in Multi cultural environment of America., He happened to become  history lecturer somewhere in Michigan AMRIKA...

    please read about him at his own blog......

    https://www.juancole.com/about/toward-authorized-biography   as far as his connection/writings on Islamic history is concerned .. THEY ARE NEXT TO NOTHING.. I am not even sure he read Quran in its entirety

    His fame in Islamic history comes from his edited book


    Muhammad Prophet of Peace Amid the Clash of Empires   by Juan Cole

    Hence he is famous around high school Islamic history readers  and off course Educated Muslim folks of west  Who do not read about Islam and its history .. Look at the 350 page book contents

    https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/juan-cole/muhammad/9781568587837/

    Quote
    WHAT'S INSIDE

    Chapter 1   “Petra: rock-cut buildings.” Lithograph by Louis Haghe after a painting by David Roberts, from David Roberts, The Holy Land, Syria, Idumea, Egypt, Nubia. Prepared by Louis Haghe. 1st ed. London: F. G. Moon, 1842–1849. 3 volumes.
    Courtesy Library of Congress

    Chapter 2   “Angel.” Ink and gold on paper. Iran, sixteenth century.
    Courtesy Metropolitan Museum of Art

    Chapter 3   Nabataean goddess betyl.
    Bjorn Anderson, University of Iowa (photograph in private collection) (CC BY-SA 3.0), via Wikimedia Commons

    Chapter 4   “Four brothers who live in Medina and who have been converted to Islam attempt to convert their pagan father.” Siyar-i Nabi, Ottoman, 1594–1595.
    Courtesy Spencer Collection, New York Public Library

    Chapter 5   “Samuel Anointing David.” Silver plate for Emperor Herakleios, Constantinople, 629–630.
    Courtesy Metropolitan Museum of Art

    Chapter 6   Illustration from Futuh al-Haramayn (Opening of the Holy Cities). Muhi al-Din Lari, Bukhara, sixteenth century.
    Courtesy Metropolitan Museum of Art

    Chapter 7   Leaf from Qur’an. This folio from Walters manuscript W.553 contains verses from the Surat al-a’raf, penned in an Early Abbasid script (Kufic) on parchment. Third century AH / AD ninth century.

    Courtesy Walters Art Museum, W.553.15B
    Conclusion   “Mecca, 1787.” Pencil, ink, grey wash and watercolor. Louis Nicolas de Lespinasse, French, 1734–1808.
    Courtesy Christie’s


    Look at that.,   does it have any Islamic history?? If some one considers him as Islamic historian .. Then I feel sorry for Islamic historians..

    but do not get me wrong HE IS GREAT GUY... HE SPENT LOT OF TIME IN INDIA/IRAN/bit of time in Pakistan and in various faiths., such as Buddhism, Bahaism,  Shia Islam ...etc ....which  come from that part of the world.. BUT HE IS NOT A HISTORIAN OF ANY FAITH.,  I am surprised he did not join other faiths such as Sikhism..Hinduism.. Zoroastrianism .. etc   I guess they are NOT connected to his Mom's faith

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10855 - November 28, 2022, 04:50 PM

    Late Antique Syriac Homilies and the Quran
    A Comparison of Content and Context
    Paul Neuenkirchen

    https://journals.openedition.org/mideo/7712
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10856 - November 28, 2022, 06:25 PM

    Messianic Judaism from the 6th to Early-20th Century: Textual Evidence

    https://www.academia.edu/11642910/Messianic_Judaism_from_the_6th_to_Early_20th_Century_Textual_Evidence
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10857 - November 29, 2022, 07:27 PM


    https://www.academia.edu/36426137/Cellard_La_vocalisation_des_manuscrits_coraniques_dans_les_premiers_si%C3%A8cles_de_l_islam_in_F_D%C3%A9roche_C_Robin_et_M_Zink_%C3%A9d_Les_origines_du_Coran_le_Coran_des_origines_AIBL_2015

    Cellard in the conclusions states that
    1) part of the quran was obscure to its readers
    2) exegetes behaved as phililogists trying to reconstruct the meaning of words and passages
    2) arabic was fixed and imposed onto the quran in order to limit the number of readings and not as derived from an oral tradition

    this is similar to raynolds in "the quran and its Biblical context"

    isn't this enough to cast shadows onto the idea of an oral tradition?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10858 - November 29, 2022, 07:34 PM


    https://www.academia.edu/42251380/Jesus_in_the_Quran

    Martin kerr points to a theological overlap between the Quelle (source) of the psudoclementine letters and of other texts available in syriac

    looks like specific ideas around the one god, Jesus role and prophetic status were already circulating.

    What might be the bridge between this and the quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10859 - November 29, 2022, 08:05 PM

    https://www.academia.edu/42251380/Jesus_in_the_Quran

    Martin kerr points to a theological overlap between the Quelle (source) of the psudoclementine letters and of other texts available in syriac

    looks like specific ideas around the one god, Jesus role and prophetic status were already circulating.

    What might be the bridge between this and the quran?

    I am assuming that word  "this"   represents ... "oral tradition of  one god, Jesus role and prophetic status" ..... you wrote in the post... I guess when you say "ORAL TRADITION"   oral tradition in Arabic language??  or you are thinking ORAL  TRADITION IN OTHER  LANGUAGES??   such as Hebrew??  Aramaic?  Syriac??  Coptic?? Persian??  ..

    So rephrasing that question.,   

    Quote
    What might be the  bridge between  ORAL TRADITION of   one god....  Jesus role ...   prophetic status Jesus ( NOT SON OF GOD STATUS)   and the quran?


    in that sense, it  is an interesting question.,   and  answer appears to be very simple dear  Spaghettibologn.,  Answers are written in Quran verses., and in fact what altara posted above on   that Messianic Judaism 0f the 6th century  or  relationship between Syriac Homilies and the Quran  ...etc etc    tells you that Quranic writers incorporated that stuff .. such as Jesus being a just a prophet and he is NOT son  of god., or one god concept  is there in Quran here and there....  and Quran tells you that it is from OT and NT

    Not sure I answered your question .. I think some verses in Quran does have the answer to your question..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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