Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #10800 - August 23, 2022, 02:14 PM

Hythem Sidky: Radiocarbon Dating Manuscripts and the Early History of the Qur'an
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l-8nvrpnx4
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In this interview I have the pleasure of talking to Dr. Hythem Sidky for a second time. This time we talk about radiocarbon dating and the proposed dates of some Qur'an manuscripts. Dr. Sidky is the executive director of the International Qur'anic Studies Association and has published many articles on various topics in Qur'anic Studies. Dr. Sidky gives an indepth historical and scientific explanation on how Qur'an manuscripts can be dated.

To keep up with Dr. Sidky's work please visit his Academia page, here: https://chicago.academia.edu/HythemSidky

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Reply #10801 - August 24, 2022, 07:07 PM

For me... Shoemaker (2022) has the definitive point about radiocarbon dating. Not reliable. That's what I thought. before reading him. He has just comforted me in this view.
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Reply #10802 - August 25, 2022, 10:32 AM

Quote from: Altara on August 24, 2022, 07:07 PM
For me... Shoemaker (2022) has the definitive point about radiocarbon dating. Not reliable. That's what I thought. before reading him. He has just comforted me in this view.

Altara Please write your book.. WINDS ARE SHIFTING FAST TO EAST ... Publish or perish is still the name of the game in Academics.(I am assuming you are an academician) ................ All that books and all that published work on early Islam will be dumped in dustbin unless the story of Prophet of Islam is Corrected .. And for me it appears you have the correct idea on early Islam... any way this is from today...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncw_8KyEduk

by that Robert Spencer

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Reply #10803 - August 26, 2022, 11:23 AM

The position of Spencer interfere with those of Smith because the latter absolutely needs a concrete figure with which to confront himself. He need an existing 'prophet' or whatever because he is an apologist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDeXrbqHeDk
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Reply #10804 - August 26, 2022, 01:46 PM

Everyone can think whatever he likes about Spencer and his activities but his book 'Did Muhammad Exist?: An Inquiry into Islam’s Obscure Origins—Revised and Expanded Edition' ($ 9 in amazon kindle...) is a must read.

Spencer is the only graduate (MA, Religious Studies, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) I know, who dares posing questions about this precise topic and noting the problem of the responses traditionally taught by academics and the traditional narrative. For me, it is precisely because the 'prophet' has never existed that one can bring light to the Quran enigma. Without ruling out him from the responsibility (supernatural or not) of the production of the Quranic texts , it will never be possible to explain their public emergence at the end of the 7th c.

This question is a definitive taboo now. All academics claim that the issue is settled (Doctrina Jacobi, etc.) and that we have to move on. (For the most courageous... ) the 'move on' is first 'no more history' but the Quran and the Wansbrough/Dye/Shoemaker (2022) layers theory of the Quran using biblical criticism (Hajjaj b. Yusuf (and not Uthman) being the 'true' editor of the Quranic texts, arranging and more or less rewriting it).

But all of this is accessory: where come from those rewritten texts by Hajjaj? Both still believe to the foundation of the 'Nöldekian paradigm' even if they claim abandoning it: they keep the Mecca/Kaba frame. They just leave the topic of the edition/composition of those texts to Hajjaj and not Uthman. So what? What does it change? For me... nothing. Dye still write about the Mecca/Kaba foundation and of the 'Prophet'. As I have not finished yet the last Shoemaker (2022) , I do not know what he says about that. But I have a brain.

The sole academic who was commencing to see that there was something to dig towards a direction is Segovia. Segovia, I think, was afraid and abandoned totally the topic to come back to its academic training: philosophy.
It was the only one who actively was searching responses and his lasts papers more or less in some ideas - and even if he missed crucial things, and some things that he did not still fully comprehend- joins what I think.

P.S. The 'things' and 'crucial things' are public sources consisting of sources telling history/events that were never corelated to the emergence of the Quranic texts.
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Reply #10805 - August 28, 2022, 12:51 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 26, 2022, 01:46 PM
Everyone can think whatever he likes about Spencer and his activities but his book 'Did Muhammad Exist?: An Inquiry into Islam’s Obscure Origins—Revised and Expanded Edition' ($ 9 in amazon kindle...) is a must read.

Spencer is the only graduate (MA, Religious Studies, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill)

well .. what is the point of having a Ph. D. and writing rubbish publications or silly books...??
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I know, who dares posing questions about this precise topic and noting the problem of the responses traditionally taught by academics and the traditional narrative. For me, it is precisely because the 'prophet' has never existed that one can bring light to the Quran enigma. Without ruling out him from the responsibility (supernatural or not) of the production of the Quranic texts , it will never be possible to explain their public emergence at the end of the 7th c.

I fully agree with you on that

Quote
This question is a definitive taboo now. All academics claim that the issue is settled (Doctrina Jacobi, etc.) and that we have to move on. (For the most courageous... ) the 'move on' is first 'no more history' but the Quran and the Wansbrough/Dye/Shoemaker (2022) layers theory of the Quran using biblical criticism (Hajjaj b. Yusuf (and not Uthman) being the 'true' editor of the Quranic texts, arranging and more or less rewriting it).

I wonder whether you can throw few references/Names of academics THAT ARE STILL ACTIVE in the field .. who says/said this " that the issue is settled (Doctrina Jacobi, etc.) and that we have to move on"
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But all of this is accessory: where come from those rewritten texts by Hajjaj? Both still believe to the foundation of the 'Nöldekian paradigm' even if they claim abandoning it: they keep the Mecca/Kaba frame. They just leave the topic of the edition/composition of those texts to Hajjaj and not Uthman. So what? What does it change? For me... nothing. Dye still write about the Mecca/Kaba foundation and of the 'Prophet'. As I have not finished yet the last Shoemaker (2022) , I do not know what he says about that....

sorry did not get that., do you mean to say that these Ph. D.s and University faculties of Islamic history "ABONDONED EXISTANCE OF MUHAMMAD BUT STILL KEEP MECCA MEDINA in the frame of early Islamic history?? How does that work? what is there explanation?

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But I have a brain.

OFF COURSE YOU HAVE BRAIN... I don't think any one who has head on his shoulders says that " you do not have brain" dear Altara
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The sole academic who was commencing to see that there was something to dig towards a direction is Segovia. Segovia, I think, was afraid and abandoned totally the topic to come back to its academic training: philosophy.
It was the only one who actively was searching responses and his lasts papers more or less in some ideas - and even if he missed crucial things, and some things that he did not still fully comprehend- joins what I think.

who?? this one dr. Carlos Segovia, .. https://slu.academia.edu/CarlosSegovia

or that 15th century Spanish theologian Juan de. Segovia ??

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P.S. The 'things' and 'crucial things' are public sources consisting of sources telling history/events that were never corelated to the emergence of the Q uranic texts.

I fully agree with that and thank you for the wonderful responses

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #10806 - August 28, 2022, 03:13 PM

Quote
I wonder whether you can throw few references/Names of academics THAT ARE STILL ACTIVE in the field .. who says/said this " that the issue is settled (Doctrina Jacobi, etc.) and that we have to move on"

They did not say it like this, of course. But each time it is necessary that his existence have to be grounded, they give the same texts. The DJ being one of the most quoted.
Every academic who needs in their stuff to ground the 'Prophet' existence uses them: Crone ( yes...) Anthony, Borrut, etc.
Therefore, as this is 'grounded' the others who deals with the Quran and considers the Muslim narrative as not (totally) reliable, are more or less obliged to abandon this topic: they have to rule out it.

But all of this is accessory: where come from those rewritten texts by Hajjaj? Both still believe to the foundation of the 'Nöldekian paradigm' even if they claim abandoning it: they keep the Mecca/Kaba frame. They just leave the topic of the edition/composition of those texts to Hajjaj and not Uthman.

I meant that 'both', i.e, Shoemaker and Dye, still believe to the foundation of the 'Nöldekian paradigm' even if they claim abandoning it: they keep the Mecca/Kaba frame which belongs to the 'Nöldekian paradigm' this one being the Muslim narrative ridded of the supernatural stuff.
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who?? this one dr. Carlos Segovia, .. https://slu.academia.edu/CarlosSegovia

That's correct.
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Reply #10807 - September 04, 2022, 08:46 AM

IQSA annual meeting, 5-7 September: https://members.iqsaweb.org/resources/IQSA_2022_programme_printed_25.08.2022.pdf

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Reply #10808 - September 04, 2022, 11:34 AM

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10.45–12.15 | Sala Magna
Panel 1. The Medinan Surahs: An Integrative Approach
organized by Nicola Sinai (University of Oxford)
10-55–11.15: Qur’an 2:40ff. in Comparative Perspective (Marianna Klar)
11.15–11.35: “A Scripture to Enlighten Them”: Light Imagery, Exhortation, and Ethical
Guidance in the Medinan Surahs of the Qur’an (Nora K. Schmid)
11.35–11.55: The Medinan Theology of the ummah (Nicolai Sinai)
11.55–12.15: Purity in the Medinan Qur’an (Holger Zellentin)

Miss Neuwirth.
It would have been interesting if Motzki was there, but he passed away. All would have been there (however miss too Marx, Hoyland, Lecker...) but they do not really deal with the Quran.

Sinai and him taking a beating in Shoemaker 2022.
I don't think he will respond to the accusations made against him by both him and Dye ,he will let the controversy die out.

Quote
Quote
14.35–14.55: Radiocarbon Dating and Qur’anic Manuscript Chronology (Hythem Sidky)

Interesting response to Shoemaker.

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Roundtable. Qur’anic Coherence
organized by Karen Bauer (Institute of Ismaili Studies, London)
and Feras Hamza (University of Wollongong in Dubai)
chaired by Karen Bauer (Institute of Ismaili Studies, London)

Panelists
1. Feras Hamza – University of Wollongong in Dubai
2. Asma Helali – University of Lille
3. Marianna Klar – University of Oxford
4. Joseph Lowry – University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA
5. Nevin Reda – University of Toronto, ON
6. Gabriel Said Reynolds – University of Notre Dame, IN
7. Nicolai Sinai – University of Oxford
8. Shawkat M. Toorawa – Yale University, New Haven, CT

Somewhere near the beginning of most English introductions to the
Qur’an, authors mention that the Qur’an is non-linear. This points
to certain expectations on the part of English-speaking audiences,
highlighted nicely by a quote in Neal Robinson’s Discovering the Qur’an:
A Contemporary Approach to a Veiled Text (Georgetown University Press,
2003, second edition), in which a fictional character becomes terribly
annoyed at what he perceives to be the Qur’an’s lack of narrative
progression, and decides that there must be a lock upon his own heart
preventing him from understanding it. Indeed, non-linearity is often
associated with modernist authors such as Virginia Woolf or James
Joyce, not with books from the 7th century; and perhaps especially
not with sacred scripture. The Qur’an defies such expectations with its
non-chronological arrangement and juxtaposition of commands and
exhortations, stories, supplications, promises and threats; stories which
are told in parts and almost never in whole; iteration and reiteration
of themes and even exact phrases; mixture and alternation of tenses,
speaking voices, and direct and indirect addressees. The received
Qur’an (the muṣḥaf) thus raises questions for some readers, centering
on whether it can be considered a coherent text, and/or what might it
take to make it coherent. This roundtable gathers together prominent
Qur’anic Studies scholars to discuss an issue that lies at the heart of
how we read, understand, and study the Qur’an.
The roundtable will be animated by several framing questions:
1) How do you define textual coherence and what do you expect from such
coherence?
2) Should coherence be considered one of the potential, but not inevitable,
consequences of the scholarly study of the Qur’an? Why should coherence not be
considered a basic premise in the received Qur’an?
3) Is coherence attended to by discovering structural patterns, or does coherence
entail something more (narrative, plot, themes, emotion, theology)?
4) What methods and methodologies reveal coherence, or alternatively reveal a
lack of coherence in the Qur’an, or in parts of it?
5) Is it possible to find coherence in the arrangement of the received Qur’an (the
muṣḥaf)? Does the arrangement of sūras impact the Qur’an’s coherence?

Interesting. Will this will be live on YT or Twitch?
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Reply #10809 - September 04, 2022, 12:14 PM

Quote from: Altara on September 04, 2022, 11:34 AM
Interesting. Will this will be live on YT or Twitch?

I haven't seen any suggestion of this unfortunately.

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Reply #10810 - September 06, 2022, 10:05 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm4dMHv2UOo
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In Part One of how the Oasis of Yathrib came to be seen as the Holy City of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Dr. Munt explained how the concept of sacred space in Late Antiquity, particularly those within the Hijāzī Arabian context known as a Haram and Himā, were created and functioned. He had also went over in Part One the moment in which the Prophet Muhammad first established a haram in the Valley of Yathrib, as mentioned in the document famously titled the Constitution of Medina. Part one closed with Dr. Munt describing his research into the scholarly debates concerning the nature of the Haram in Medina, which included debates about its status, ritualistic requirements, and overall existence after the passing of the Prophet’s generation.

In this installment—Part Two of how the Oasis of Yathrib came to be seen as the Holy City of the Prophet Muhammad—we’re going to put the Haram on a shelf until the last part of this segment, where Dr. Munt and I explore some of the reasons for why the Prophet established a Haram at the Oasis in the first place.

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Reply #10811 - September 07, 2022, 08:50 PM

Andrew Marsham - Bede, Ibn Isḥāq, and the idols: narratives of conversion at late antique edges

https://www.academia.edu/82689167/Bede_Ibn_Isḥāq_and_the_idols_narratives_of_conversion_at_late_antique_edges

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Reply #10812 - September 08, 2022, 12:27 PM

Quote from: zeca on September 07, 2022, 08:50 PM
Andrew Marsham - Bede, Ibn Isḥāq, and the idols: narratives of conversion at late antique edges

https://www.academia.edu/82689167/Bede_Ibn_Isḥāq_and_the_idols_narratives_of_conversion_at_late_antique_edges

that Oxfordonian The Andrew Marsham has wonderful abilities to look at the history with very critical eye., But when it comes to early Islam he does not come out with outright straight forward statements., He just wiggles around and dilutes/hides with round around statements in circles .. I wonder why?

For e.g. in this very publication
Bede, Ibn Isḥāq, and the idols: narratives of conversions etc..etc from this year 2022... not from 2010.,

HE JUST TOOK ONE VERSE from that SURAH AL-ISRA AYAT 81 which says
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And say: The truth has come and the falsehood has vanished; surely falsehood is a vanishing

and connected that to the story which apparently was written by Ibn Ishaq and which again was rewritten in 10th century and then He continues in the publication with Muhammad..Mecca..Medina.. Zam zam story where water thrown on those broken Idols by the fictional character named "Muhammad"

WHY?? WHY CAN NOT HE WRITE IN THE CONCLUSIONS THAT .. these were the stories of their times and have no reality with reference to early Islamic history and and these stories were just propagated by the rulers of that time for the expansion THEIR PERSONAL Islamic empires and it continues through out 7th to 10th centuries .

What is the point of doing such publication when EXISTANCE OF MECCA/MEDINA/MUHAMMAD IS QUESTIONABLE.,

Anyways I like his old publications and I am glad to know He takes up lot of Muslim graduate students into his research group..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #10813 - September 10, 2022, 09:31 AM

Arianna D'Ottone Rambach - Early Qurʾānic Scrolls from the Qubbat al-khazna and their links with the Christian Manuscript Tradition of Greek-Byzantine Scrolls

https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/epub/10.3366/jlaibs.2022.0007
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This contribution aims to reconsider some early Qurʾānic parchment scrolls once stored in Damascus Qubbat al-khazna and currently preserved in Istanbul – at the Museum of Turkish and Islamic Arts. Their peculiar book form, apart from vague hypothesis, never received a convincing explanation. However, the production of Greek-Byzantine liturgical scrolls in Damascus up to the tenth century offers a meaningful precedent that sheds light on the provenance and the origin of these scrolls. Codicological techniques, bilingual – Greek-Arabic – witnesses and oral performances are some of the elements that link the Christian and Islamic scrolls production in the Syrian area.

https://twitter.com/AriDot1

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Reply #10814 - September 20, 2022, 07:02 AM

Marijn van Putten is answering questions on r/AcademicQuran:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/comments/xi6g6w/i_am_a_specialist_in_the_history_of_the_quranic/
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Reply #10815 - September 20, 2022, 08:45 AM

Reynolds interviews Donner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iJaFL7x_M4

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Reply #10816 - September 22, 2022, 12:14 PM

27 ". Donner (2022) says that there is no evidence about the Jews, understatement 'in the Hijaz', despite the 'Constitution of Medina' and in the Umayyad time as being part of the 'Believers' movement ; thesis that yet he has advocated. He tries to (desperately) save his thesis with the 'cooperation' between Umayyad and Christians...
There is no need of his thesis to explain that fact which is sociologically 'normal': the conqueror uses the administration present before him and get rid of it as soon as he can. This is what happened.
Donner is lost. Learning Arabic was useless. It is useless. Sorry to say that but... What the point to know saying 'I go to Walmart tomorrow in my blue car' in Arabic to comprehend the Quran? What is it for? Nothing.
I know I'm severe. I know.
As a historian he would have had to comprehend what is at stake with the emergence of the Quranic texts. He would have had to ask himself questions : why this, why that, what is happening, without taking into account the Muslim narrative.
Yet, he noted something: "The Problem of Early Arabic Historiography in Syria" in Proceedings of the Second Symposium on the History of Bilad al-Sham During The Early Islamic Period Up to 40 A.H./640 A.D. The Fourth International Conference On the History of Bilad al-Sham, University of Jordan Yarmouk University, vol. 1, Amman, 1987, 1-27.
But he did not dig. This article (rid of the muslim garments) helped me to ground what I had already perceived. Thanks Fred.
After it is the traditional stuff at 29 : "You know, in the Quran Christians are praised, etc."
Why they are praised and after not praised Fred?
Do you have an explication to that?
… I think, somehow, Donner is a little bitter, like, somehow, Crone was. After 40 years career, both still got nothing. Two historians.
I know I'm severe. I know. So I'm thinking that it depends (very) of how your minds is shaped, works, how you were educated. If minds were all the same we'd have been all Newton or Galileo, or Vinci. We are not.
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Reply #10817 - September 22, 2022, 01:14 PM

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Yet, he noted something: "The Problem of Early Arabic Historiography in Syria" in Proceedings of the Second Symposium on the History of Bilad al-Sham During The Early Islamic Period Up to 40 A.H./640 A.D. The Fourth International Conference On the History of Bilad al-Sham, University of Jordan Yarmouk University, vol. 1, Amman, 1987, 1-27.
But he did not dig. This article (rid of the muslim garments) helped me to ground what I had already perceived. Thanks Fred.

https://www.academia.edu/1013495/The_Problem_of_Early_Arabic_Historiography_in_Syria_1987_

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Reply #10818 - September 29, 2022, 09:08 AM

Thread: https://twitter.com/sasanianshah/status/1574678921055977472?cxt=HHwWgICyzdeIsdorAAAA
Quote
Well well, I think my hypothesis that Egypt and Syria passed directly from Sasanian control to the Arab one, without a significant reestablishment of Byzantine control, might actually have some archaeological support!

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Reply #10819 - September 29, 2022, 10:16 AM

Quote from: zeca on September 29, 2022, 09:08 AM
Thread: https://twitter.com/sasanianshah/status/1574678921055977472?cxt=HHwWgICyzdeIsdorAAAA

that tweet comes from "Dr. Χοδαδάδιος Ρεζαχανίδης @sasanianshah"., So who is that Russian/Afghan?? agent dear zeca? .. and I tell you that tweet
Quote
Well well, I think my hypothesis that Egypt and Syria passed directly from Sasanian control to the Arab one, without a significant reestablishment of Byzantine control, ~~might actually have some archaeological support!~~

is NONSENSE., A. J. Butler this book in 1902 The Arab Conquest of Egypt, clearly proved that the so-called The Sasanian conquest of Egypt took place between 618 and 621 CE, ., and one must realize that time line year 618-621 falls right in the middle of so-called Prophet Muhammad)PUBH) life

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571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. ..y
620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph

ONE MUST REAIZE THAT Sasanian conquest of Egypt and Syria IS NOTHING TO DO WITH SO- CALLED ARABS..... so the question of "some archaeological support " does .not arise because

Neither the person "Prophet Muhammad" .. NOR THOSE FOUR RIGHTLY GUIDED CALIPHS WERE ARABS

Simple Arab folks were blamed for early Islamic story .. Arabs came in to Islam after year 690...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #10820 - September 29, 2022, 10:38 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on September 29, 2022, 10:16 AM
that tweet comes from "Dr. Χοδαδάδιος Ρεζαχανίδης @sasanianshah"., So who is that Russian/Afghan?? agent dear zeca?

He's Iranian and a historian dealing mainly with Sasanian Iran.

https://leidenuni.academia.edu/KhodadadRezakhani

https://iranologie.com

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Reply #10821 - September 29, 2022, 12:40 PM

Quote
Quote from: yeezevee on September 29, 2022, 10:16 AM
that tweet comes from "Dr. Χοδαδάδιος Ρεζαχανίδης @sasanianshah"., So who is that Russian/Afghan?? agent dear zeca? .. .....................

Quote from: zeca on September 29, 2022, 10:38 AM
He's Iranian and a historian dealing mainly with Sasanian Iran.

https://leidenuni.academia.edu/KhodadadRezakhani

https://iranologie.com

Oh!.. He is NOT that far from Russian/Afghan borders ...lol... But he must read his own collection that is at his link

Quote
https://www.academia.edu/32368487/The_Islamic_Conquest_of_Sasanian_Iran by Khodadad Rezakhani

The Roman Empire in Context The Legs of the Throne: Kings, Elites, and Subjects in Sasanian Iran Scott McDonough Download Free PDF

He should click that link and read it ., or down load that freely

These young historians one day or other day will realize ., many of whole nations that converted in to Islam within one or two centuries such as Egypt., Syria, Iran, Turkey and present Iraq and and ., part of Indian subcontinent., Indonesia, Malaysia and So -called many Islamic nations and their local rulers and intellectuals of that time SLEEP WALKED IN TO ISLAM ., without knowing and without understanding it

1). WHAT IS THERE IN ISLAM?
2). WHERE DID IT COME FROM?
3). AND HOW DID IT BECOME CENTRAL FAITH OF MAJOTIRY FOLKS ACROSS MANY NATIONS WITHIN 200 years...?

Well I can tell this much.., Quran is NOTHING TO DO WITH ARAB folks of 5th/6th/7th century and Islam is Nothing to do with Quran and Arab folks of that time., and our Altara is close cracking the code.. hope he will finish his work...

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #10822 - October 04, 2022, 08:21 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmUQXteKx-0
Quote
In this interview, I have the pleasure of interviewing for a second time Dr. Emran El-Badawi. Dr. El-Badawi is a scholar of the Qur'an and a friend. He is program director and associate professor of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Houston. He founded the Arab Studies program at UH and he has designed, implemented, and assessed degree programs in the Humanities and Sciences. Dr. El-Badawi also served as founding executive director and treasurer of the International Qur'anic Studies Association.

This time we discuss the importance of freedom of expression within the field of Qur'anic Studies both in the Muslim world and the West. We discuss some high profile cases of censorship as well as the state of the field in the West.

Which side are you on?
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #10823 - October 05, 2022, 05:14 AM

Quote from: zeca on October 04, 2022, 08:21 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmUQXteKx-0

In this interview, I have the pleasure of interviewing for a second time Dr. Emran El-Badawi. Dr. El-Badawi is a ~~scholar~~ of the Qur'an

well sorry to say this to dear dr. prof.. El-Badawi ., He may be faculty member or director of some religious studies department in some prestigious well known western university .. But i have to change the above highlighted statement by deleting the word "SCHOLOR OF QURAN" and re-write it as

Dr. El-Badawi is a BELEIVER of Qur'an being a revelation from Allah and he reads/read Quran as revelation from God .

any way let me put the link to that article Intellectual Freedom and the Study of the Quran, by @emranep.url also this https://uh.academia.edu/EmranElBadawi is his Acedamia link of his books and publications and he has interesting https://uh.academia.edu/EmranElBadawi/CurriculumVitae background .,

but I think it is high time for such people to come out of the mind set THAT THIS BOOK IS SOME REVELATION FROM ALLAH/GOD .. whatever .. What revelation?? The present book Quran is book of its time., It is actually a very very messy book to read and to understand that is put together, On top of that many silly verses were added in to original manuscripts which may have been songs and sonnets used to pray in some multicultural Arab society of that time., And those manuscripts were made in to a book/religious manual during the time of Abbasid Caliphate some time in middle of eighth century .

When Muhammad/Mecca/Medina existence is in Question.. making this book as revelation is nonsense. on the way let me add this last month twitter links and go read Quran

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554866607700205574
https://twitter.com/IslamScienceNet/status/1554747615572639744/photo/1

those are on that article

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #10824 - October 07, 2022, 10:15 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifDL6I0Gh_E

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- yeezevee
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #10825 - October 08, 2022, 01:23 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 07, 2022, 10:15 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifDL6I0Gh_E

Does The Quran Go Back To Muhammad?

what a question... So what is the answer from that discussion with van Putten dear zeca?

First of all Queston is., Do any of these guys that use the name "Muhammad" KNOW WHO THAT MUHAMMAD WAS??

And question is., do these ACEDAMIC GUYS believe in what our good friend akay said in his post at
Quote from: akay on October 08, 2022, 12:12 PM
Muhammad ibn (son of) Abdullah ibn (son of) Abdul Mutalib, was born on 12 Rabi 'Awwal in the year 570 C.E. (Christian Era) in Makkah, (today: Saudi Arabia) and he died in 633 C.E. in Yathrib (today: Madinah, Saudi Arabia)...

do they believe in that story of present Saudi Arabia ..."BORN IN MECCA PERISHED IN MEDINA".... story??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #10826 - October 09, 2022, 09:41 PM

Thread: https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1578793832917139457
Quote
I can’t seem to write today, so let’s try an informal thread.
I want to share some not-yet-organised notes on the title and office of vizier (Arabic: wazīr وزير) in early Islam.

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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #10827 - October 11, 2022, 02:16 AM

Quote from: zeca on October 09, 2022, 09:41 PM
Thread: https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1578793832917139457

casually looking at that thread I see

Ian D. Morris
@iandavidmorris
·
Quote
Oct 9
Meanwhile a Syriac grandee from Edessa attached himself to an Umayyad prince, ‘Abd al-‘Aziz, who became governor of Egypt (685–705). Athanasius bar Gumoye and his sons amassed a fortune from this wealthy province, but their career was sunk by the prince’s early death.
Ian D. Morris
@iandavidmorris
·
Oct 9
None of these men was ever called a vizier; that title would emerge later.
But they were typical of the class of bureaucrats that would later dominate the vizierate: civilian administrators of non-Arab descent.

Quran being the first and LOST Arabic book with LOST PROPHET., David Morris will be better off exploring Quran verse

Quote

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلْنَا مَعَهُ أَخَاهُ

هَارُونَ وَزِيرًا

Transliteration:   Walaqad atayna moosa alkitaba wajaAAalna maAAahu akhahu haroona wazeeran

Yusuf Ali:   (Before this,) We sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister;

Shakir:   And certainly We gave Musa the Book and We appointed with him his brother Haroun an aider.
·

and that is from Surah Al-Furqaan verse 35

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #10828 - October 17, 2022, 08:59 PM

Short interviews at the IQSA meeting in Palermo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgbo3bpn9nM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx_43TNezGI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFmJxkhsCg4

Which side are you on?
- Asbjoern1958
- Member
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #10829 - October 23, 2022, 08:21 AM

On page 393, note 60 in in his new book, Stephen Shoemaker writes that he doubts the Quran has been written in Medina,Mecca or Hijaz:

"Nevertheless, I find it impossible to reconcile Beck’s readings of the Qur’an with a context in either Mecca or Medina. Instead, his interpretations of the text, which find the Qur’an in intensive dialogue not only with Christian but also with Manichaean and Zoroastrian traditions, require a culturally sophisticated and complex context such as Edessa. It is inconceivable to me in the present state of our evidence that we could assume such a context in the Hijaz. Beck’s interpretations of the text also seem to assume a very early written tradition, effectively in the lifetime of Muhammad, which is not currently in evidence."

Do you agree with Shoemaker's statements her?
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

zeca

Reply #10800 - August 23, 2022, 02:14 PM

Altara

Reply #10801 - August 24, 2022, 07:07 PM

yeezevee

Reply #10802 - August 25, 2022, 10:32 AM

Altara

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Altara

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yeezevee

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zeca

Reply #10807 - September 04, 2022, 08:46 AM

Altara

Reply #10808 - September 04, 2022, 11:34 AM

zeca

Reply #10809 - September 04, 2022, 12:14 PM

zeca

Reply #10810 - September 06, 2022, 10:05 AM

zeca

Reply #10811 - September 07, 2022, 08:50 PM

yeezevee

Reply #10812 - September 08, 2022, 12:27 PM

zeca

Reply #10813 - September 10, 2022, 09:31 AM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #10814 - September 20, 2022, 07:02 AM

zeca

Reply #10815 - September 20, 2022, 08:45 AM

Altara

Reply #10816 - September 22, 2022, 12:14 PM

zeca

Reply #10817 - September 22, 2022, 01:14 PM

zeca

Reply #10818 - September 29, 2022, 09:08 AM

yeezevee

Reply #10819 - September 29, 2022, 10:16 AM

zeca

Reply #10820 - September 29, 2022, 10:38 AM

yeezevee

Reply #10821 - September 29, 2022, 12:40 PM

zeca

Reply #10822 - October 04, 2022, 08:21 AM

yeezevee

Reply #10823 - October 05, 2022, 05:14 AM

zeca

Reply #10824 - October 07, 2022, 10:15 AM

yeezevee

Reply #10825 - October 08, 2022, 01:23 PM

zeca

Reply #10826 - October 09, 2022, 09:41 PM

yeezevee

Reply #10827 - October 11, 2022, 02:16 AM

zeca

Reply #10828 - October 17, 2022, 08:59 PM

Asbjoern1958

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