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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1058324 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10770 - July 22, 2022, 08:30 PM

    A new Mythvision interview with Robert Hoyland
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd-9-Nw5fmE
    Quote
    Was there a holy city of Islam before the current city we call Mecca? We know many other hypothesis are out there like Petra & Jerusalem. This isn't just a conspiracy theory to be laughed at when the sources in the Islamic narrative are confusing and out right contradictory. Are the non-Muslim sources any better at getting to the reality of 7th century Arabia, Muhammad & his impact?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10771 - July 24, 2022, 12:36 PM

    Matteo Bächtold - Quran & Scholars (review of Le Coran des historiens)

    https://booksandideas.net/Quran-Scholars.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10772 - July 27, 2022, 05:30 PM

    Matteo Bächtold - Quran & Scholars (review of Le Coran des historiens)

    https://booksandideas.net/Quran-Scholars.html

    let me put the pdf fie connection of that  translator Renuka George on that   book  commentary "Quran & Scholars" ..  by Matteo Bächtod

    But the problem of that three volume set
    Quote
    by Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi and Guillaume Dye (Eds.), Le Coran des historiens, Éditions du Cerf, 2019. 3 volume box set,

     is  https://booksandideas.net/IMG/pdf/en_16112020_quran_and_scholars.pdf
    Quote
    Quote
      Far from the heated debates on the role of Islam in Europe, the historians Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi and Guillaume Dye were at work. After over five years of gestation, they offer readers the fruit of their and their collaborator’s labour. The result, Le Coran des Historiens, a monumental synthesis of knowledge on the context, origins and content of the Quran, has already become a reference work that will be viewed as a major landmark in the study of the Quran. This book is a far cry from psychology-oriented biographies of Muhammad or controversial writings that focus on a handful of verses taken out of context, to glorify or debase Islam. Here, what dominates is science, freed from traditional sources, theology and biased views, leaving room for a purely historical view of the Quranic texts. From pre-Islamic epigraphy to Manichean writings, from the kings of Ethiopia to the Byzantine factions, not forgetting the Jewish tribes, the authors forcefully demonstrate the extent to which the Arabia where the Quran was born was a rich and interconnected world. At the crossroads of religion, literature, law, politics and much more, Le Coran des historiens is a dive into a more loquacious Antiquity than we imagine. For many readers, this book will provoke a radical shift in their perception of the Quranic text and all that surrounds it...

     

    Quote
    while exegetical commentaries (written by historians or not) are usually produced by a single scholar, Le Coran des historiens, for its part, adopts a collective approach (28 authors collaborated on the project) in order to benefit from each ones’ specialization and to avoid, or at least neutralise, the idiosyncrasies of individual researchers, in order to truly reflect contemporary historical-critical research


    well.. not sure ..  but appears to be TOO MANY COOKS  cooked those volumes

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10773 - July 28, 2022, 10:02 AM

    Quote
    Matteo Bächtold - Quran & Scholars (review of Le Coran des historiens)

    https://booksandideas.net/Quran-Scholars.html

    let me put the pdf fie connection of that  translator Renuka George on that   book  commentary "Quran & Scholars" ..  by Matteo Bächtod

    But the problem of that three volume set is  https://booksandideas.net/IMG/pdf/en_16112020_quran_and_scholars.pdf 

    well.. not sure ..  but appears to be TOO MANY COOKS  cooked those volumes



     

    well on that three volume 2019 set  of



      by  Ali Amir-Moezzi  , Guillaume Dye 


    which cost some 100 American dollars.. damn some 23000 rupees . almost a month  rent of an apartment ...   

    let me add bit more details from another reviewer Gavin McDowell  from University of Université Laval
    Quote
    Quote
      http://enochseminar.org/review/23023

    In terms of methodology, Le Coran des historiens could be described, in a sense, as “backward-looking.” That is, the Qurʼān is interpreted in light of contemporaneous, largely non-Muslim sources and ignores, for the most part, traditional Muslim exegesis. This approach distinguishes the work from two other projects: The Study Qurʼān edited by Seyyed Hossein Nasr[5] and the Corpus Coranicum database (https://corpuscoranicum.de/). The Study Qurʼān is a confessional work whose starting point is the very exegetical literature Le Coran des historiens eschews (making it a potentially interesting companion piece; it is “forward-looking,” explaining how the Qurʼān has been received rather than where it came from). The Corpus Coranicum shares a historical-critical perspective with the present work but adheres to the paradigm established by Theodor Nöldeke (d. 1930). Nöldeke and his successors operated under three major assumptions: 1) The Qurʼān is the authentic preaching of Muhammad; 2) The Qurʼān accurately reflects the experiences of the fledgling Muslim community between 610 and 632 CE; and 3) The compilation of the Qurʼān was initiated by ʿUthmān, the third caliph, before his death in 656 CE (see vol. 1, pp. 746–748). Though influential, the presumptions behind the “Nöldeke paradigm” differ little from a confessional approach and lack a solid historical foundation. Representatives of this approach (such as Angelika Neuwirth) are nevertheless well-represented in the commentary since Le Coran des historiens aims at providing a full summary of the current state of critical scholarship


    Part One: The Qurʼān and the Origins of Islam: The Historical and Geographical Context

    1. Pre-Islamic Arabia (Christian Julien Robin)
    2. Arabs and Iranians Before and at the Beginning of Islam: An Overview of Some Zones of Contact and Conflict (Samra Azarnouche)
    3. The Lives of Muhammad (Stephen J. Shoemaker)
    4. From Arabia to Empire: Conquest and Caliphal Construction in Early Islam (Antoine Borrut)

    Part Two: The Qurʼān at the Crossroad of Late Antique Religious Traditions
    5. Judaism and the Qurʼān (Meir M. Bar-Asher)
    6. Religious Communities in the Byzantine Empire on the Eve of the Arab Conquest (Muriel Debié and Vincent Déroche)
    7. Christians in Sasanid Iran (Christelle Jullien)
    8. Ethiopian Christianity (Manfred Kropp and Guillaume Dye)
    9. “Jewish-Christian” Currents and Oriental Christians of Late Antiquity (Jan M. F. Van Reeth)
    10. Manichaeism: Current Research (Michel Tardieu)
    11. Jewish Apocryphal Writings and the Qurʼān (David Hamidović)
    12. Syriac Apocalypses (Muriel Debié)
    13. Iranian Apocalyptic (Frantz Grenet)
    14. The Qurʼān and its Legal Environment (David S. Powers)

    Part Three: The Qurʼānic Corpus
    15. The Study of Qurʼānic Manuscripts in the West (François Déroche)
    16. Ancient Qurʼānic Manuscripts: An Overview of the Evidence and Presentation of Research Tools (Éléonore Cellard)
    17. The Qurʼān in Stone[6] (Frédéric Imbert)
    18. The Qurʼānic Corpus: Context and Composition (Guillaume Dye)
    19. The Qurʼānic Corpus: Questions Concerning its Canonization (Guillaume Dye)
    20. Shi‘ism and the Qurʼān (Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi)

    As can be seen, only the last quarter or so of this volume explicitly treats the topic of the Qurʼān. This is hardly a criticism. On the contrary, it represents the wide tapestry of areas that could potentially shed light on our understanding of the Qurʼān. It is so vast that it is hard to see what is missing, although I would have liked to see an article on Christian Apocrypha and the Qurʼān.

    well I got to read that and more from that link again... A very decent review

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10774 - July 29, 2022, 10:14 PM

    Conference on "Unlocking the Byzantine Qur'an"

    https://kw.uni-paderborn.de/fileadmin/piit/Veranstaltungen/UtBQ_Broschuere.pdf

    https://twitter.com/GhaffarZishan/status/1545394085103640576?cxt=HHwWgIC9ifHuq_IqAAAA
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10775 - July 29, 2022, 10:30 PM

    Conference on "Epigraphy, the Qur'an, and the Religious Landscape of Arabia"

    https://uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/evangelisch-theologische-fakultaet/lehrstuehle-und-institute/religionswissenschaft-und-judaistik/religionswissenschaft-und-judaistik/quran-project-erc/events/08-10092022-epigraphy-the-quran-and-the-religious-landscape-of-arabia/
    Quote
    The three-day international conference will bring together specialists in epigraphy as well as scholars of the Qurʾān with the aim of exploring how recent epigraphic and archaeological findings and research have been changing our understanding of the Qurʾān and the Arabian religious, cultural, and political landscape.

    A wide range of archaeological finds is rapidly expanding our knowledge of the pre-Islamic cultural milieu and the political structures of the Arabian Peninsula during Late Antiquity, and thereby of the Qur’ān’s cultural context. This material can offer a complementary reading to the literary accounts on pre-Islamic Arabia, which were mostly composed outside Arabia, or long after the late antique period. Accordingly, the conference seeks to integrate new archaeological finds with ongoing studies on the genesis of the Qur’ān, its Arabian background, and the broader cultural milieu of pre-Islamic Arabia with a special focus on “late” Late Antiquity at the dawn of Islam. Themes to be addressed include, but are not limited to:

    Religious Identities and Religious Landscape
    Naming God in pre-Islamic Arabia
    Ethnicity and literacy
    Cultic continuity

    Bearing in mind the fluidity of identities and traditions during Late Antiquity, we also accommodate papers that do not fall into these exact categories. We believe there is a growing need to make the recent exciting discoveries of scholars working on the Qur’ān and Arabia more widely accessible to historians who may not have a solid background in archaeology and epigraphy. Aiming to foster discussion between scholars, each panel will be paired with a specialist on the Qur’ān or on the wider history of Arabia.

    The research presentations will be open to the public upon timely pre-registration and streamed online.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10776 - July 30, 2022, 11:06 AM

    Podcast

    Harry Munt - Rashidun Caliphate’s Hegemony in the Mediterranean

    https://ithacabound.com/podcast/rashidun-caliphates-hegemony-in-the-mediterranean-w-dr-harry-munt/
    Quote
    The Rashidun Caliphate is a term used to describe the period of the caliphs in the Muslim community following Muhammad and preceding the Umayyad Caliphate. Dr Harry Munt, Senior Lecturer in Medieval History, University of York, joins the show to share the caliphate’s hegemony in the Mediterranean Basin.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10777 - July 30, 2022, 11:16 AM

    Podcast

    Gerald Hawting - Umayyad Caliphate’s Hegemony in the Mediterranean

    https://ithacabound.com/podcast/umayyad-caliphates-hegemony-in-the-mediterranean-w-dr-gerald-hawting/
    Quote
    For nearly a century, the Umayyad Caliphate controlled a vast amount of territory in the Mediterranean Basin stretching from the Levant, through northern Africa, and even most of the Iberian Peninsula. British scholar, Islamacist, and Emeritus Professor at SOAS, University of London, Dr Gerald Hawting, joins the show to discuss the Umayyad Caliphate’s hegemony in the basin.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10778 - July 30, 2022, 03:56 PM

    Podcast

    Antoine Borrut - Umayyad‘s Hegemony in the Mediterranean in the 7th Century

    https://ithacabound.com/podcast/umayyads-hegemony-in-the-mediterranean-in-the-7th-century-w-dr-antoine-borrut/
    Quote
    Much happened in the 7th century during Umayyad’s prominence including two fitnas (commonly referred to as civil wars), printing coins, and the assembly of a navy. Dr. Antoine Borrut, University of Maryland, joins the show to discuss the caliphate's hegemony in the Mediterranean Basin in the 7th century.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10779 - August 04, 2022, 08:42 AM

    Stephen Shoemaker - Biblical Criticism and the Qur’an: The Hour Has Drawn Nigh

    https://mizanproject.org/biblical-criticism-and-the-quran-the-hour-has-drawn-nigh/
    Quote
    For too long, study of the Qur’an and the rise of Islam has remained quarantined from the hermeneutics of suspicion and the critical approaches that have defined biblical and early Christian studies for well over a century. Sadly, John Wansbrough’s troubling observation that the Qur’an “[a]s a document susceptible of analysis by the instruments and techniques of Biblical criticism… is virtually unknown”1 remains no less true today than it was in 1977. Fortunately, however, it now looks as if things are beginning to change. Younger scholars of early Islam have begun to show more interest in such approaches than many of their mentors. And now there is a vibrant professional organization to support such endeavors, the recently established International Qur’anic Studies Association, as well as new academic fora such as this new digital scholarship platform, to provide a medium for the exploration of historical-critical approaches to the beginnings of Islam – or, the history of Muhammad’s Community of the Believers, as it should more properly be designated.2 Indeed, it seems that the hour has arrived for a critical turn in the study of early Islam, a turn that in some respects represents a return to the critical spirit characteristic of some of the earliest Western scholarship on Islamic origins.

    The methodological toolkit developed in Biblical Studies is well suited for the investigation of early Islam, and it is to be hoped that in the near future more scholars in this area will familiarize themselves with these approaches and apply them to the Qur’an and the early Islamic tradition. There are signs of promise. For the first time now we are seeing an attempt to produce a critical edition of the Qur’an, in the Corpus Coranicum project. Nevertheless, the widespread destruction of manuscripts with variant readings in the early Islamic period should probably lower our expectations. Likewise, the project leader’s conviction that the contents of the Qur’an all date from Muhammad’s lifetime and have their origin in his preaching takes a number of important questions off of the table, it would seem.3 Indeed, it is hard to imagine a critical edition of the New Testament being produced according to a similar conviction. With this project, however, the most rudimentary method of Biblical Studies, the “lower criticism” of text criticism, has finally come to Qur’anic Studies.

    Particularly enticing in regard to this project are a number of supposedly early Qur’an manuscripts that have recently made sensational headlines in the popular media. The discovery of ancient manuscripts could certainly aid in this endeavor. Nevertheless, the dating of these manuscripts has proven to be highly problematic and controversial. Suffice to say that the process of radiocarbon dating does not seem to be working accurately on these materials. For instance, one such manuscript, now in Birmingham, England, has been given a date range that places it before Muhammad began his religious movement.4 While the possibility that the Qur’an actually predated Muhammad is not entirely out of the question, the dating of this manuscript is most likely inaccurate, as are the early datings of the manuscripts in Tübingen, Leiden, and Yemen.5

    The problem, it would seem, is that radiocarbon dating in the medieval period is only accurate when it can be calibrated by tree ring data, particularly from oak trees. Such data is wanting for the medieval Mediterranean or Near East, and the data from the northern hemisphere that has been used to calibrate these tests was taken from Ireland and North America. If one were to instead use the data from the southern hemisphere (and we are talking about Arabia here), I am told by those more expert in this procedure than me that very different datings would result. For the time being, then, we must remain skeptical of these sensationalist findings and their often uncritical dissemination in the popular media.

    Of all the methods deployed by biblical criticism for the analysis of Jewish and Christian scriptures, the method holding the most promise for the study of the Qur’an is, I think, form criticism, and particularly New Testament form criticism, as I have proposed in my book, The Death of a Prophet, as well as elsewhere.6 This method, developed for studying the individual components of the gospel narratives during the period of their oral transmission, begins by parsing the various traditions according to their literary form. Then, a variety of criteria are applied in order to identify the circumstances that most likely gave rise to a particular tradition, as well as the impact of the process of transmission on its final recorded form.

    Such an approach could replace Nöldeke’s rather dubious classification of the qur’anic sūras according to the sequence of their revelation in Mecca and Medina, which he adopts from later Islamic tradition.7 Indeed, form criticism would no longer operate at the level of complete sūras, but would instead analyze their individual elements according to literary form. Moreover, this approach would sever the problematic connection between the Qur’an and Muhammad’s biography, a hermeneutic marriage that has frequently been used to construct a sense of unity and coherence out of the Qur’an’s diverse assemblage of a wide range of textual material and traditions. Indeed, the very nature of the Qur’an’s traditions and the early reports of their assemblage almost cry out for such analysis. As Andrew Rippin notes, traditional reports of their initial piecemeal collection on “stones, palm leaves, and the hearts of men virtually jumps out at the scholar familiar with form criticism when faced with such Muslim testimony.”8

    Other methods from Biblical Studies will no doubt prove to have similar value for illuminating the Qur’an and its history, and redaction criticism in particular seems to hold great promise. But before we can proceed to this and other forms of “higher criticism,” the development of a Qur’anic form criticism, inspired and guided by New Testament form criticism, seems to be a necessary first step.


     

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10780 - August 05, 2022, 07:16 AM

    Paul Ellis' comment on Pfander Films, (:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIxV_bSsvz8&t=628s)

    "You are quite correct that the story of the Qur'an's canonization recorded in the hadith makes no sense, and even Sheikh Yasir Qadhi has admitted as much.

    However, it seems harsh to say of Marijn van Putten and Hythem Sidky that they are doing their 'damndest' to support the SIN, and then to attribute to them a mercenary motive. I am not aware of either gentleman expressing belief in the traditional account of the canonization of the Qur'an  by Zayd bin Thabit, including the manuscript under Hafsa's bed, or the discovery by fighters from different parts of the caliphate meeting on the battlefield and discovering that they were reciting the Qur'an in different dialects. I cannot speak to what they actually think, but both seem cautious academics whom I have only seen express conclusions that follow from their analysis of the evidence.

    Two things that they do say are, in their essence, that:

    1. the early Qur'an manuscripts can all be shown to have been copies of copies,  originating from a single archetype.

    2. The analysis of minor variations in the manuscripts allows us to seek to reconstruct which copies were copied from which, and that the best analysis so far conducted is of four codices (all now lost) from which all subsequent manuscripts that we know of were directly or indirectly copied.

    IMO their reasoning makes sense and the factual basis  upon which they base it has not, to my knowledge, been seriously  challenged. In fact, I am not sure, based upon this video what it is that they say in this regard with which you disagree (I accept that you reject the carbon dating, but that is a different issue).

    Saying that at one stage somebody produced a master copy from which all subsequent copies were made, and that the first generation of copies consisted of four manuscripts, happens to me to be consistent with the SIN, but a very long way short of supporting it.

    For example, one may accept their views on the 'stemma' whilst still concluding (as I do) that:

    A. there must have been non-canonical Qur'ans in circulation at some point of which the Sanaa Palimpsest lower text is probably one, and

    B. The archetype must have emerged from a process of canonisation very different to the one described in al-Bukhari's ahadith, probably involving an element of compromise between the rival Qur'ans.

    In short, the comment in the video description seemed unnecessarily insulting to two scholars who to.my knowledge have given us no reason to doubt their competence or sincerity. "

    Now, if it were Sean W Anthony you were speaking of, then that would be a very different issue. He has recently gone on the record as saying that white, male academics should not ask questions that might inhibit the cultural Muslim demographic - whom he accepts are the people who mostly attend his classes and buy his books - to flourish both in the US and internationally. Now that is racist  corrupt and damnable."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10781 - August 05, 2022, 07:20 AM

    PfanderFilm's introduction to the same video:

    "Western scholars like Marijn Van Putten and Hythem Sidky try their damnedest to support the Standard Islamic Narrative concerning the creation of the earliest Qur’anic manuscripts, possibly because their paymasters are Muslim institutions giving out large amounts of oil money with vested interest in preserving the 'Standard Islamic Narrative' at any cost.

    As a result, the scholars are forced to mimic the story of how the Qur’an was compiled in 652 AD, taken from Al Bukhari’s 870 AD Hadith (Sahih Al Bukhari, volume 6 hadith numbers 509-510), written almost 240 years after the fact; so hundreds of years too late and hundreds of miles too far north, and with absolutely no historical support.

    This creates numerous problems for the modern Western scholars who are indebted to Muslim institutions for their financial bursaries.

    According to Al Bukhari’s 'Standard Narrative' account, in 652 AD Udaifa, a friend of Uthman, the Caliph in Medina at that time, goes with a contingent of men north to fight the Azerbaijanis and is joined by Muslims from Iraq and Syria. After the battle these Muslims retire to a local mosque to pray, where Udaifa hears the Qur’an being recited differently from what he memorized, and he begins a fight with the other northern Muslims.

    Deeply disturbed by what he heard, he immediately goes back south to Uthman in Medina and demands that he command Zaid ibn Thabi (Muhammad’s secretary, who was responsible for writing the original Qur’an under Abu Bakr 20 years earlier) to rewrite the Qur’an a second time, but this time in the local 'Quraishi Dialect'; which he does, and gives the finished copy to Uthman.

    Uthman then has every other Qur'an which disagrees with this finalized, and thus "original text" be burned.

    Note, Muslims today say that he only burned dialectical differences, which are nothing more than differences in pronunciation.

    The problem with that excuse is that in order to have dialectical differences in a written Arabic text, you need dots and vowels, which didn't exist that early, and were only invented in the 8th and 9th centuries, so this could not be the reason these earliest written Qur'ans disagreed. They indeed must have had consonantal differences, all of which would have changed the meaning for each verse substantially. No wonder Uthman had to destroy those which disagreed.

    To make sure there would be no more different Qur'ans, Uthman then had a copy of Zaid ibn Thabit's final recension sent to 5 cities (Mecca, Medina, Basra, Kufa and Damascus) to be the standard for all subsequent Qur'ans.

    Unfortunately, it didn't work, as within a few years a Qur'an written by Ubay ibn Ka'ab (a companion of the prophet) appeared in Damascus with 116 Surahs (today's Qur'an only has 114 Surahs).

    Another Qur'an written by Ibn Masu'd (another of Muhammad's companions) appeared in Kufa/Baghdad, which had only 110 Surahs, and a third yet different Qur'an written by Ibn Musa appeared in Basra.

    So, by the end of the 7th century there were at least 4 different Qur'ans in existence in 5 different cities.

    Note, we don't have any of these variant Qur'ans in our possession today in order to see just how different they were. In fact, we don't even have the original text written by Zaid ibn Thabit in existence today either.

    Rather clumsy of the Muslims to have conveniently lost all 5 of the original Qur'ans as well as the 3 other variant Qur'ans, don't you think?

    Even more troubling, Dr Arthur Jeffery in the 1930s, by perusing the 9th and 10th century Islamic Traditions concerning these variant Qur'ans, was able to find 15,000 differences which the compilers had described in their writings.

    So much for early standardization!

    This makes Van Puten and Sidky's job even more precarious, as they can only referance a possible proto-Qur'an (or as they call it an "archetype"), but cannot produce any manuscript to support their claims, since there simply is not any original 7th century Qur'an for us to look at.

    Unlike our Biblical manuscripts of the new Testament, where we can point to the Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus Codexes (dated to the 4th century) as well as the Alexandrinus (dated to the 5th century), all 200-300 years before the Qur'an was supposedly written, Muslims cannot even find ONE manuscript of their original Qur'an from the 7th century, a mere 1400 years ago.

    So, what do Muslim scholars do in response to this problem? Stay tuned for the next episode to find out..."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10782 - August 05, 2022, 12:06 PM

    hell Asbjoern1958 ., glad to read your comments but have to read through agan., Curious on this first statement 
    Paul Ellis' comment on Pfander Films, (:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIxV_bSsvz8&t=628s)

    "You are quite correct that the story of the Qur'an's canonization recorded in the hadith makes no sense, and even Sheikh Yasir Qadhi has admitted as much.

    However, it seems harsh to say of Marijn van Putten and Hythem Sidky that they are doing their 'damndest' to support the SIN, and then to attribute to them a mercenary motive. I am not aware of either gentleman expressing belief in the traditional account of the canonization of the Qur'an  by Zayd bin Thabit, including the manuscript under Hafsa's bed, or the discovery by fighters from different parts of the caliphate meeting on the battlefield and discovering that they were reciting the Qur'an in different dialects. I cannot speak to what they actually think, but both seem cautious academics whom I have only seen express conclusions that follow from their analysis of the evidence.

    Two things that they do say are, in their essence, that:

    1. the early Qur'an manuscripts can all be shown to have been copies of copies,  originating from a single archetype.

    2. The analysis of minor variations in the manuscripts allows us to seek to reconstruct which copies were copied from which, and that the best analysis so far conducted is of four codices (all now lost) from which all subsequent manuscripts that we know of were directly or indirectly copied.

    IMO their reasoning makes sense and the factual basis  upon which they base it has not, to my knowledge, been seriously  challenged. In fact, I am not sure, based upon this video what it is that they say in this regard with which you disagree (I accept that you reject the carbon dating, but that is a different issue).

    Saying that at one stage somebody produced a master copy from which all subsequent copies were made, and that the first generation of copies consisted of four manuscripts, happens to me to be consistent with the SIN, but a very long way short of supporting it.

    For example, one may accept their views on the 'stemma' whilst still concluding (as I do) that:

    A. there must have been non-canonical Qur'ans in circulation at some point of which the Sanaa Palimpsest lower text is probably one, and

    B. The archetype must have emerged from a process of canonisation very different to the one described in al-Bukhari's ahadith, probably involving an element of compromise between the rival Qur'ans.

    In short, the comment in the video description seemed unnecessarily insulting to two scholars who to.my knowledge have given us no reason to doubt their competence or sincerity. "

    Now, if it were Sean W Anthony you were speaking of, then that would be a very different issue. He has recently gone on the record as saying that white, male academics should not ask questions that might inhibit the cultural Muslim demographic - whom he accepts are the people who mostly attend his classes and buy his books - to flourish both in the US and internationally. Now that is racist  corrupt and damnable."


    the above comments  are very important  but let ,me put that video in a proper format

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIxV_bSsvz8

    and Hythem Sidky IS NO HOSTORIAN OF ISLAM or origins of Quran...  any one who says  "Qur'an's canonization recorded in the hadith "     is simply playing "doctrine of taqiyya game " with History of Quran...  And I  say , If not all., many of these permanent University  jobs of historians of Islam need to be taken out and the departments need to be closed ..

    anyways  let me add these videos  along the one in your post

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxFsaJy003Y

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TuLlUu-OU0

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10783 - August 05, 2022, 04:53 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDeXrbqHeDk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiVFGmCKEAA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo4IDNoyCTY

    those last two videos are by Robert Spencer and Aabhas Maldahiyar
     from Sangam Talks

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10784 - August 08, 2022, 10:31 PM

    Already posted I think but here's the Mythvision interview with Stephen Shoemaker
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jOAhI6oP80


    The face of Shoemaker when he is confronted to the fact that Jews and Arabs were allied versus the Romans according to the DJ. He is not doing his homework.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10785 - August 09, 2022, 07:49 PM

    The face of Shoemaker when he is confronted to the fact that Jews and Arabs were allied versus the Romans according to the DJ. He is not doing his homework.

    well Shoemaker  is a perfect story teller ., For telling stories you need not do home work ., Home work is needed when you want to write and tell true History .,   But dear Alatra just curious  on your opinion on these Qs

    1.  who actually were these  four rightly guided Caliphs?

    2.   do you think the  actual beginning of Islam starts  with Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan's regime  and whatever happened before was just story of local Arab/non-Arab warlords with fictitious names??

    3. And what is your opinion on this Story of Karbala?? did it happen or it was also another story of Islam??



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10786 - August 10, 2022, 03:07 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hrcd6K0RDM
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10787 - August 11, 2022, 02:04 AM



    well I prefer this one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XJ4bxYYPVE

    The Truth About the Quran | Harvard Professor Shady Nasser

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10788 - August 13, 2022, 09:18 PM

    Thread on the Satanic Verses

    https://twitter.com/abhistoria/status/1558455902088400897?cxt=HHwWgsC4odnY36ArAAAA
    Quote
    The Satanic Verses controversy has a long and recent past. The incident reached global fame after the 1988 publication of Salman Rushdie’s novel. Long before, however, the topic was fiercely debate in medieval Muslim scholarship. A general thread for non-specialists

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10789 - August 13, 2022, 09:52 PM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1558225058702704640?cxt=HHwWgICygezb9p8rAAAA
    Quote
    The story of how the young Salman Rushdie first encountered at Cambridge the classic story of the so-called "satanic verses" that eventually inspired the novel (published in 1988) is a pretty interesting one that he details in his memoir Joseph Anton (2012) ...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10790 - August 14, 2022, 08:48 AM

    The Satanic Verses in Early Shiʿite Literature: A Minority Report on Shahab Ahmed’s Before Orthodoxy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10791 - August 14, 2022, 11:43 AM


    Quote
    But dear Altara just curious  on your opinion on these Qs



    NP.


    Quote
    1.  who actually were these  four rightly guided Caliphs?



    The only ones known (inscriptions, sources) are  Muawiya and Ali (amir of al Hira, Iraq, capital of the Arabs) .Later (8,9th c.) Christians chroniclers adopted what the Muslims recounted (Umar, Uthman, etc.)


    Quote
    2.   do you think the  actual beginning of Islam starts  with Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan's regime  and whatever happened before was just story of local Arab/non-Arab warlords with fictitious names??


    1/ Slowly started, yes. The most important ' beginning of Islam ' being after 750. Before Abd al-Malik, there was the conquest vs Constantinople in the West and Persia in the East.

    Quote
    3. And what is your opinion on this Story of Karbala?? did it happen or it was also another story of Islam??


    This story (and the fall of the Umayyad in 750) is the formal remake of what happened during 2 centuries : West Romans Arabs vs East Persians Arabs during the Roman-Persians wars. (250-400-630).
    But... (for me...) what happened after the conquest involves the same people : The Umayyad, of Damascus are leading the West but want control Iraq because it is their homeland. They control it  until 750 where there were defeated by the Iraqi from Iraq.  The Umayyad, leaders of the West settled in Damascus did not come from Mecca/Kaba, but Iraq. Why? Simply because Persian Arabs used to wage war from the East to the West for the Persians during the Roman-Persians war. All of this is grounded. And in the 630's they won vs the  West Romans Arabs (Yarmuk) their old ennemies and settled in the West.
    'Kerbala' was an later 'islamic' garment of those events the war between the Iraqi leaders of Damascus vs the natives Iraqi.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10792 - August 14, 2022, 09:43 PM

    oh my goodness there is too much on my plate
    Quote

    NP.

    1). The only ones known (inscriptions, sources) are  Muawiya and Ali (amir of al Hira, Iraq, capital of the Arabs) .Later (8,9th c.) Christians chroniclers adopted what the Muslims recounted (Umar, Uthman, etc.)


    Quote
    2. 1/ Slowly started, yes. The most important ' beginning of Islam ' being after 750. Before Abd al-Malik, there was the conquest vs Constantinople in the West and Persia in the East.


    3). Shia Sunni bussiness:  This story (and the fall of the Umayyad in 750) is the formal remake of what happened during 2 centuries : West Romans Arabs vs East Persians Arabs during the Roman-Persians wars. (250-400-630).
    But... (for me...) what happened after the conquest involves the same people : The Umayyad, of Damascus are leading the West but want control Iraq because it is their homeland. They control it  until 750 where there were defeated by the Iraqi from Iraq.  The Umayyad, leaders of the West settled in Damascus did not come from Mecca/Kaba, but Iraq. Why? Simply because Persian Arabs used to wage war from the East to the West for the Persians during the Roman-Persians war. All of this is grounded. And in the 630's they won vs the  West Romans Arabs (Yarmuk) their old ennemies and settled in the West.
    'Kerbala' was an later 'islamic' garment of those events the war between the Iraqi leaders of Damascus vs the natives Iraqi.

     i will get back to you with many Qs on those three points  that are of time domain

    but basically., your point is this.,   Karbala story was essentially the war story/stories that has been retold as a story and this may/may not have happened between.. 

    Roman Arabs or Arab Romans   with  Arab Persians or Persian Arabs

    did I get that right?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10793 - August 15, 2022, 10:31 AM

    Quote
    but basically., your point is this.,   Karbala story was essentially the war story/stories that has been retold as a story and this may/may not have happened between..

    Roman Arabs or Arab Romans   with  Arab Persians or Persian Arabs

    did I get that right?


    Yes. (For me...) the Arab invasion of Palestine does not come from the South (Mecca/Kaba) but from the East their first objective of the Persian Arabs  being to crush their (old) ennemies the Roman Arabs: they did it at the Yarmuk  (636)  then they settled in Damascus and ruled from there. But they still wanted to control their homeland (Iraq). They had to establish their authority there. This was never accepted in Iraq, so there was always unrests, turmoil, etc. Ali is an Iraqi like Zubayr  and he was amir of al Hira. Ali and Zubayr revolted vs Damascus, both lost their wars. Ali events were covered later by 'Islamic' clothes (cousin of the Prophet who should have succeeded , vs his ex Meccan ennemies, etc.  Again, (for me...) there is no such thing a 'prophet' or 'cousin' of this one: all of this being a later Islamic retro projection.)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10794 - August 15, 2022, 05:38 PM

    Dale Lightfoot - The Origin and Diffusion of Qanats in Arabia: New Evidence from the Northern and Southern Peninsula

    https://www.academia.edu/10767576/The_Origin_and_Diffusion_of_Qanats_in_Arabia_New_Evidence_from_the_Northern_and_Southern_Peninsula

    Zubaidah bint Ja'far

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zubaidah_bint_Ja%27far
    Quote
    On her fifth pilgrimage to Mecca she saw that a drought had devastated the population and reduced the Zamzam Well to a trickle of water. She ordered the well to be deepened and spent over 2 million dinars improving the water supply of Makkah and the surrounding province. "This included the construction of an aqueduct from the spring of Hunayn, 95 kilometers to the east, as well as the famed "Spring of Zubayda" on the plain of Arafat, one of the ritual locations on the Hajj. When her engineers cautioned her about the expense, never mind the technical difficulties, she replied that she was determined to carry out the work "were every stroke of a pickax to cost a dinar", according to Ibn Khallikan."


    Canal of Zubaida

    https://madainproject.com/canal_of_zubaida
    Quote
    The Canal of Zubaida, known in Arabic as 'Ain Zubaida (عين زبيدة), is an early Abbasid era aquaduct (Qanat), constructed by Zubaidah bint Ja'far, and was completed in the year 801 CE. The aquaduct of Zubaida was constructed to provide the city of Mecca with water, and in part it is built as a qanat (underground water channel) style, typical of Middle East and in part as an above ground aquaduct.


    The first article suggests that the qanat water supply to Mecca is unlikely to pre-date the early Islamic era. Which raises the question of what kind of population Mecca could have supported before this water supply was constructed. The attribution to Zubaidah bint Ja'far comes from Ibn Khallikan writing in the 13th century - so I don't know if it is considered reliable.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10795 - August 16, 2022, 10:10 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EIqb7TOkzM
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10796 - August 17, 2022, 04:06 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQMZ5X1uEo4
    Quote
    Official Sources and the Reconstruction of History: The Case of the Last Great War of Antiquity

    The last and longest war of classical antiquity was fought in the early 7th century, opening in 603 when Persian armies launched coordinated attacks across the Roman frontier. For twenty-five years, the conflict raged on an unprecedented scale, and its end brought the classical phase of history to a close. Despite all this, it has left a conspicuous gap in the history of warfare. James Howard-Johnston’s The Last Great War of Antiquity aims to finally fill that gap by piecing together the scattered and fragmentary evidence of this period to form a coherent story of the dramatic events, as well as an introduction to key players – Turks, Arabs, and Avars, Persians, and Romans – and a tour of the vast lands over which the fighting took place. The result is a solidly founded, critical history of a conflict of immense significance in the final episode of classical history.

    About the Speaker

    James Howard-Johnston was University Lecturer in Byzantine Studies at Oxford and Fellow of Corpus Christi College from 1971 to 2009. He complemented academic activity with involvement in local politics between 1972 and 1987. His historical interests range from the later Roman empire in the fourth century up to Byzantium on the eve of the Fourth Crusade. He is primarily concerned with the institutional, social and economic structures of Byzantium, and with international relations in the Middle East in late antiquity and the early middle ages. His principal publications are The Armenian history attributed to Sebeos (Liverpool, 1999 – co-authored with Robert Thomson), Witnesses to a World Crisis: Historians and Histories of the Middle East in the Seventh Century (Oxford, 2010), and Historical Writing in Byzantium (Heidelberg, 2014).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10797 - August 18, 2022, 03:29 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRZCgqvmv3o
    Quote
    How the oasis settlement of Yathrib in the Hijāz emerged as the Holy City of the Prophet ﷺ over the course of three Islamic centuries (7th to 9th CE) - Inspired by the 2014 release of 'The Holy City of Medina: Sacred Space in Early Islamic Arabia' by Dr. Harry Munt: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Harry-Munt/s?rh=n%3A266239%2Cp_27%3AHarry+Munt

    Dr. Munt is a Senior Lecturer in Medieval History at the University of York in England. And before joining the department in 2014 he was a British Academy Postdoctoral Fellow in the Faculty of Oriental Studies and Wolfson College at the University of Oxford. His research and teaching focuses on the history of the Islamic world, ca. 600–1500. In particular, he works on the history of the Arabian Peninsula in the early Islamic centuries, Islamic holy cities and pilgrimage, and Arabic history-writing in the medieval period: https://www.york.ac.uk/history/staff/profiles/munt/#profile-content

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10798 - August 19, 2022, 10:24 AM

    Paul Ellis' comment on Pfander Films, (:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIxV_bSsvz8&t=628s)

    "You are quite correct that the story of the Qur'an's canonization recorded in the hadith makes no sense, and even Sheikh Yasir Qadhi has admitted as much.

    However, it seems harsh to say of Marijn van Putten and Hythem Sidky that they are doing their 'damndest' to support the SIN, and then to attribute to them a mercenary motive. I am not aware of either gentleman expressing belief in the traditional account of the canonization of the Qur'an  by Zayd bin Thabit, including the manuscript under Hafsa's bed, or the discovery by fighters from different parts of the caliphate meeting on the battlefield and discovering that they were reciting the Qur'an in different dialects. I cannot speak to what they actually think, but both seem cautious academics whom I have only seen express conclusions that follow from their analysis of the evidence.


    MVP supports the traditional narrative:

    " There is no positive evidence at all that the Quran was composed in an intertribal poetic koiné whose features remain undefined by those that have advocated such a position. Instead, it seems best to consider the Quran to be composed in the native dialect of the audience it was originally addressed to, that is, the local dialect of Mecca and likely also Medina. This should be seen as strong, and independent, evidence for the location in which the Quran took its form, namely: the Hijaz."

    MVP, Quranic Arabic, From its Hijazi Origins to its Classical Reading Traditions, Studies in Semitic Languages and Linguistics, 2022. p.146.

    But he misses one thing: The use of a written language does not imply a place of writing: there are plenty of examples of the contrary to this day.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10799 - August 19, 2022, 02:51 PM

    Hmm .. You write posts and throw so many questions in to my head dear Altara
    MVP supports the traditional narrative:

    " There is no positive evidence at all that the Quran was composed in an intertribal poetic koiné whose features remain undefined by those that have advocated such a position. Instead, it seems best to consider the Quran to be composed in the native dialect of the audience it was originally addressed to, that is, the local dialect of Mecca and likely also Medina. This should be seen as strong, and independent, evidence for the location in which the Quran took its form, namely: the Hijaz."

    Quote
    MVP, Quranic Arabic, From its Hijazi Origins to its Classical Reading Traditions, Studies in Semitic Languages and Linguistics, 2022. p.146.

    But he misses one thing: The use of a written language does not imply a place of writing: there are plenty of examples of the contrary to this day.

     

    that I get it but the point you mentioned under that hidden .. I don't get it ., neither I understand your response to me in this post 
    Yes. (For me...) the Arab invasion of Palestine does not come from the South (Mecca/Kaba) but from the East their first objective of the Persian Arabs  being to crush their (old) enemies the Roman Arabs: they did it at the Yarmuk  (636)  then they settled in Damascus and ruled from there. But they still wanted to control their homeland (Iraq). They had to establish their authority there. This was never accepted in Iraq, so there was always unrests, turmoil, etc. Ali is an Iraqi like Zubayr  and he was amir of al Hira. Ali and Zubayr revolted vs Damascus, both lost their wars. Ali events were covered later by 'Islamic' clothes (cousin of the Prophet who should have succeeded , vs his ex Meccan ennemies, etc.  Again, (for me...) there is no such thing a 'prophet' or 'cousin' of this one: all of this being a later Islamic retro projection.)

    My goodness .. My head is spinning ....



    Memories of the past spinning my head ..... Errrr.. heeeelllll  I used to sit on the horse with little sword in hand and  blood dripping all around...

    fuck it... anyway let me put that   Putten Link (any relation with Putin??) in proper format   Quranic Arabic, From its Hijazi Origins to its Classical Reading Traditions, Studies in Semitic Languages and Linguistics, 2022. p.146.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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