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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10680 - March 21, 2022, 09:11 PM

    The Real Origins of Islam with Peter Von Sivers
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_QUvlNvphM


    https://utah.academia.edu/PvonSivers

    there are some good articles in academia  from Prof. Peter von Sivers.  ,Well Jenkins, Philip, in 2010 wrote a book ., it is wroth reading ..along with watching that video




    Jesus wars : how four patriarchs, three queens, and two emperors decided what Christians would believe for the next 1,500 years by Jenkins, Philip, 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10681 - March 23, 2022, 11:37 AM

    Real Talk with Dr. Tommaso Tesei: Dhul-Qarnayn and the Christian Syriac Legend of Alexander
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1we_XM8S4go
    Quote
    Tommaso Tesei is an Associate Professor of Religious Studies at Duke Kunshan University. Before joining DKU he was a Patricia Crone member at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, and a Polonsky research fellow at the Van Leer Jerusalem Institute in Jerusalem. His academic interests mostly center on the emergence of the Islamic movement and faith tradition, and on the consequential establishment of new religious and political authorities in the context of the late antiquity of the Near East. His forthcoming monograph, entitled the Syriac Legend of Alexander’s Gate (under contract with Oxford University Press), examines a branch of apocalyptic traditions which are fundamental to understand the social and political setting from which the early Islamic community emerged and in which it shaped its identity.


    https://twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1506071925969211403
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10682 - March 23, 2022, 11:43 AM

    Real Talk with Mr. Michael C.A. Macdonald: Arabs, Arabias, and Epigraphy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z3R3yponzM
    Quote
    Mr. Michael C.A. Macdonald is one of the great names of Arabian Studies. He pioneered the field of Ancient North Arabian and made invaluable contributions to the history of Arabia and the nomads of the Near East as well as their languages, and scripts. He is also a research associate of the Khalili Research Centre, honorary fellow of Wolfson College, University of Oxford,  fellow of the British Academy and is a Trustee of the International Association for the Study of Arabia.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10683 - March 23, 2022, 03:49 PM

    Very interesting article of Dye.  I disagree on many things (Q 55, etc). However a must read.
    G. Dye, Concepts and Methods in the Study of the Qur’ān
    This paper makes available for an English audience some ideas developed with additional arguments in two papers published in French.

    https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/8/599
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10684 - March 23, 2022, 10:31 PM

    Ahmad Al-Jallad - The Religion and Rituals of the Nomads of Pre-Islamic Arabia: A Reconstruction Based on the Safaitic Inscriptions

    https://www.academia.edu/45498003/Al_Jallad_2022_The_Religion_and_Rituals_of_the_Nomads_of_Pre_Islamic_Arabia_A_Reconstruction_based_on_the_Safaitic_Inscriptions

    https://brill.com/view/title/61413?language=en
    Quote
    This book approaches the religion and rituals of the pre-Islamic Arabian nomads using the Safaitic inscriptions. Unlike Islamic-period literary sources, this material was produced by practitioners of traditional Arabian religion; the inscriptions are eyewitnesses to the religious life of Arabian nomads prior to the spread of Judaism and Christianity across Arabia. The author attempts to reconstruct this world using the original words of its inhabitants, interpreted through comparative philology, pre-Islamic and Islamic-period literary sources, and the archaeological context.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10685 - March 30, 2022, 11:15 AM


      that appears to be interesting book to read




    along with it one must read that oold book of  Hisham ibn-al-Kalbi  (737 CE - 819 CE) Kitab Al Asnam



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Idols

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dushara

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisham_ibn_al-Kalbi

    Quote
    Hisham ibn al-Kalbi (737 AD - 819 AD/204 AH), also known as Ibn al-Kalbi (Arabic: ابن الكلبي) was an Arab historian.[1] His full name Abu al-Mundhir Hisham bin Muhammed bin al-Sa'ib bin Bishr al-Kalbi. Born in Kufa, he spent much of his life in Baghdad. Like his father, he collected information about the genealogies and history of the ancient Arabs. According to the Fihrist, he wrote 140 works. His account of the genealogies of the Arabs is continually quoted in the Kitab al-Aghani.

    Hisham established a genealogical link between Ishmael and Mohammed and put forth the idea that all Arabs were descended from Ishmael.[1] He relied heavily on the ancient oral traditions of the Arabs, but also quoted writers who had access to Biblical and Palmyran sources.[1] In 1966, W. Caskel compiled a two volume study of Ibn al-Kalbi's Djamharat al Nasab ("The Abundance of Kinship") entitled Das genealogische Werk des Hisam Ibn Muhammad al Kalbi.[2] It contains a prosopographic register of every individual mentioned in the genealogy in addition to more than three hundred genealogical tables based on the contents of the text.

    Ahmad Al-Jallad  always goes around Islam BUT NOT DICSUSSES ISLAM ITSELF.,  I wonder Ahmad Al-Jallad  opinion on existence of prophet of Islam specially "Muhammad"...   Quranic Muhammad vs Hadith Muhammad

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10686 - March 30, 2022, 12:09 PM

    Gabriel Said Reynolds - The Qur’ānic Doublets: A Preliminary Inquiry

    https://www.academia.edu/74784178/The_Qur_ānic_Doublets_A_Preliminary_Inquiry
    Quote
    The present study involves a presentation and analysis of repeated phrases, or doublets, in the Qurʾān. I identify twenty-nine doublets of at least nine words (allowing for minor variation), the great majority of which are complete verses, found in different sūrahs. To provide a methodological framework for the analysis of these doublets I consider the history of scholarship on doublets in the Synoptic Gospels, distinguishing between harmonizing interpretations and the classifications of redactional and source doublets. With four exceptions (Meccan-Medinan doublets), the units making up qurʾānic doublets are both found within sūrahs traditionally identified as Meccan (Meccan-Meccan doublets) or both found within sūrahs traditionally identified as Medinan (Medinan-Medinan doublets). This distribution suggests the existence of pre-canonical texts, most likely one with Meccan material and one with Medinan material, which produced the doublets within each qurʾānic subcorpus. That Meccan-Medinan doublets are so rare suggests that repeated material in the Qurʾān is not always due to a process of repeating or re-composition (where an earlier qurʾānic phrase is redeployed, and possibly reshaped, for a later passage) but instead due to the redaction of discrete, pre-canonical texts.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10687 - April 03, 2022, 03:34 PM

    Real Talk with Dr. Tommaso Tesei: Dhul-Qarnayn and the Christian Syriac Legend of Alexander
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1we_XM8S4go


    Tommaso Tesei - The Qurʾān(s) in Context(s)

    https://www.academia.edu/75302962/THE_QUR_ĀN_S_IN_CONTEXT_S_1
    Quote
    In this essay I argue that the notorious difficulties in dealing with Qur᾿ān’s origins are mostly corollaries of the Islamic dogma that the entire corpus must be traced back to a single author and/or to a specific cultural and social context. Against this view, I propose an alternative model in which the Qur᾿ān is a literary document that reflects not only Muḥammad’s prophetic career in the Hijaz, but also the development of his community during the first decades of its territorial expansion.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10688 - April 03, 2022, 03:46 PM

    Alexander The Great Is Dhul Quarnayn In The Quran | Tomasso Tesei
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77C-HYXaVN0
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10689 - April 03, 2022, 06:40 PM

    Tommaso Tesei - The Qurʾān(s) in Context(s)

    https://www.academia.edu/75302962/THE_QUR_ĀN_S_IN_CONTEXT_S_1

    It is more or less the Dye theory.
    However a must read.

    G. Dye, Concepts and Methods in the Study of the Qur’ān
    This paper makes available for an English audience some ideas developed with additional arguments in two papers published in French.

    https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/8/599
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10690 - April 03, 2022, 06:50 PM

    It is more or less the Dye theory.
    However a must read....
    https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/8/599

     and what is your opinion on that earlier post of zeca   
    Gabriel Said Reynolds - The Qur’ānic Doublets: A Preliminary Inquiry

    https://www.academia.edu/74784178/The_Qur_ānic_Doublets_A_Preliminary_Inquiry

     on Gabriel Said Reynolds - The Qur’ānic Doublets??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10691 - April 03, 2022, 08:25 PM

    He lists the doublets. Like Tesei, it is on the same side of Dye namely : " As John Wansbrough remarked forty years ago, in the preface of his Quranic Studies: “As a document susceptible of analysis by the instruments and techniques of Biblical criticism, [the Qur’ān] is virtually unknown” (Wansbrough [1977] 2004, p. xxi). This expression of surprise is easy to understand: why have such tools (which have proved not only useful, but also necessary, in similar fields of research) not been applied to the Qur’anic corpus (and, with few exceptions, are still not used)?"
    G. Dye, Concepts and Methods in the Study of the Qur’ān
    https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/8/599
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10692 - April 04, 2022, 10:53 PM

    He lists the doublets. Like Tesei, it is on the same side of Dye namely : " As John Wansbrough remarked forty years ago, in the preface of his Quranic Studies: “As a document susceptible of analysis by the instruments and techniques of Biblical criticism, [the Qur’ān] is virtually unknown” (Wansbrough [1977] 2004, p. xxi). This expression of surprise is easy to understand: why have such tools (which have proved not only useful, but also necessary, in similar fields of research) not been applied to the Qur’anic corpus (and, with few exceptions, are still not used)?"
    G. Dye, Concepts and Methods in the Study of the Qur’ān
    https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/8/599he

     My problem with Gabriel's pub is NOT "this analysis of  some Quran verses as doublets or triplets and their similarities with some OT or NT verses., but problem is , he  attributing those verses were revealed to Prophet of Islam in Mecca or Medina or in Mecca+Medina.  Although he uses the word "ALLEGEDLY REVEALED in Mecca/Medina" in the pub., My question is .. why even use those words ??  that  Mecca? that Medina??..

    He could have simply written the pub .. saying that "there are  doublet/triplet verses in Quran similar to that of bible"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10693 - April 05, 2022, 10:45 AM

    He cannot question the frame Mecca/Kaba/Muhammad (as Dye for example see the paper I posted). If he did it, his Muslims friends would ask him: "Gabriel, you're not Muslim?"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10694 - April 05, 2022, 09:19 PM

    Marijn van Putten: Qur'anic Arabic, the Canonical Reading Traditions, and Arabic Linguistics
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_cq5PNaK3Q
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10695 - April 05, 2022, 09:25 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUCqx-nOnvk
    Quote
    This program features Dr. Jack Tannous, Associate Professor of History and Hellenic Studies and Chair of the Center for the Study of Late Antiquity at Princeton University. Dr. Tannous' work focuses on Syriac-speaking Christian communities in the Late Antique and early medieval period. He has a particular interest in manuscripts and the editing of Syriac and Arabic (especially Christian Arabic) texts.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10696 - April 06, 2022, 02:04 PM

    He cannot question the frame Mecca/Kaba/Muhammad (as Dye for example see the paper I posted). If he did it,
    Quote
    his Muslims friends would ask him: "Gabriel, you're not Muslim?"


    Really??... did I get that right?? I did not know that ., Are you sure ?

    I was (and am) under the impression that he has Arab  Christian genealogical background ., Off course ., for real historian "HIS/HER BACKGROUND MAKES NO DIFFERENCE " .,  He/she explores the facts nothing but facts of  past human history 

      well then according to Islamic laws .. I can straight away prove that what is written and  published by him leads to "BLASPHEMY"... he wrote this some eight years ago

    WHAT WE CAN LEARN FROM MERIAM IBRAHIM by Gabriel Said Reynolds
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10697 - April 07, 2022, 07:29 AM

    It was a joke. Reynolds is not Muslim. But to be Muslim imply, at least,  believing to the frame Mecca/Kaba. And it  is a mandatory faith that all scholars have: all the narrative is true except that some part of the Quran could have been written elsewhere than the 'Hijaz'.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10698 - April 07, 2022, 08:46 AM

    All the narrative is true: see Tesei (Tommaso Tesei - The Qurʾān(s) in Context(s)
    https://www.academia.edu/75302962/THE_QUR_ĀN_S_IN_CONTEXT_S_1):

    "Thanks to rare but precious material evidence and a handful of non-Islamic witnesses, we can establish a few points.10 First, we may assume that a man named Muḥammad existed, as evidenced by early Syriac sources. Second, early non-Islamic sources confirm his profession as a merchant.11 Third, we can state with confidence that he preached in the Hijaz and that his movement was in contact with a Jewish community – whose presence in the area is confirmed by a few epigraphic records.12 Fourth, we know that at least some members of the community understood Muḥammad’s preaching as referring to an imminent apocalypse.13 Fifth, we may assume that something important happened in 622 – the traditional date of Muḥammad’s migration to Yathrib – as early documents acknowledge the hiǧra dating system. Sixth, the Qur᾿ānic text was probably circulating as a codex by the second half of the 7th century, although there is no scholarly consensus on this point.14 Later Islamic sources sometimes preserve traditions traceable to the first half of the 8th century and perhaps to the last half of the 7th century.15 While it is difficult to connect these traditions to the first generations of Muslims (or proto-Muslims),16 the outcomes of these studies shorten the time span between the information they contain and the events to which they reportedly are connected. It appears that the skepticism about Islamic sources on early Islam has often been exaggerated. These sources may (and probably do) contain a core of reliable information.17 As Fred Donner observes: “Clearly, the Sīra’s vision, as a historical reconstruction of Islam’s origins, has grave weaknesses […] But at this point, it seems likely that some aspects of the traditional Sīra framework may, in the end, emerge as historically sound.”18 In this case, it will be noted, revisionist scholars have failed to provide a credible alternative scenario for the historical circumstances in which the early Islamic community emerged."


    n.12 : See Hoyland, “The Jews of Hijaz.” On Jewish communities in
    pre-Islamic Arabia see Christian J. Robin, “Quel judaïsme en Arabie ?,”
    in Le judaïsme de l’Arabie antique, Actes du colloque de Jérusalem
    (février 2006) (Judaïsme ancien et origines du christianisme 3), ed.
    Christian J. Robin, Turnhout, Brepols, 2015, pp. 15-295.

    1/ The paper of Hoyland (despite incredible efforts) not  establishes anything, especially not Jewish settlement in the 'Hijaz' as described by the narrative. The Robin one deals with the Peninsula. For the 'Hijaz' he retake (as usual) the Muslim narrative. Note that Tesei here does not give any pages about the Hijaz in Robin article...whereas it is supposed to be a ground for what he claims.
    For the rest, we know all that Judaism was in Yemen, there is no possible contestation about it. Yathrib/Medina is in Yemen? I did not know... Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10699 - April 07, 2022, 09:24 AM

    Altara

    https://journals.openedition.org/remmm/246

    I keep studying the topic
    in position 18 of enclosed article, Donner writes
    "dans la Doctrina Jacobi, cette expression est attribuée aux juifs de Césarée dans une lettre, en principe reçue du frère de l'antagoniste juif de Jacob, lettre dont le but évident est la réfutation des juifs. Comment donc devons-nous l'évaluer ? Mettre erreurs et tromperies dans la bouche de l'ennemi est en effet une tactique polémique bien connue. On hésite donc à accepter ce passage du texte comme la simple description objective d'un fait historique."

    It is the point you were making. The doctrina, like pseudo-sebeos and John and the Amir are anti-jewish polemical texts who do not pretend t0 descibe real hsitorical facts, but rather to use remote historical facts in the past and at distance, to accuse the jews and/or involve them in the contemporary disasters.
    The doctrina might be referring to jewish messianic expectations during the persian takeover of jerusalem in 614.
    In this case it would make sense for e practicing jew to ask a learned jew if the self proclaimed prophet coming among some arabs, was real becouse that self proclamed messiah was a jew himself.
    If the doctrina is referring to the arab take over of jerusalem in 634 then it means that the doctrina is again accusing the jews to be involved. In this case the accusation would be rather ridiculous for a jew reading the doctrina becouse he would lough at a believing jew assuming an arab as a prophet proclaiming the arrival of the annointed one... to whom? TO jews?

    Martin Kerr agrees as well becouse he mentions Donner article
    https://www.academia.edu/62960121/_Far%C3%BCqter_Heiland_et_le_%E1%B8%A4ajj_original_%C3%A0_J%C3%A9rusalem_Quelques_remarques_sur_le_messianisme_de_l_islam_naissant

    what i do not understand of Donner is why he has a bright observation of the doctrina, but he struggles to be as much objective in relation to the other issues of Islamic origins.


    With reference to Donner article and in connection to this one of griffith
    https://www.academia.edu/25530105/Griffith_SYRIACISMS_IN_THE_ARABIC_QURAN

    i was reflecting on the use of al-masih.
    in positions 8 9 and 10 Donner correctly reports that al masih has no messianic connection whatsover and that jesus of the quran is a prophet like any other.
    The quran wants to present its own messenger as the final prophet, it is a logical deduction that messianic expectations make little sense for a text who calims to be somehow final, no neeed of a messiah.
    Indeed like Griffith points out on the use in an arabic text of aramaic expressions, these expressions, like jesus being "triplet" lose their original aramaic meaning and are used only polimically, depriving them of their original eschatological meaning and just iperbolizing the meaning into something purely accusatory.
    So al-masih, used in polemical surah and without any messianic meaning, is basically just an epithet absorbed by the author, which, if read by arab christians, would cast in their mind the idea that the al-masih has no salvation mission.
    THe quran is re-writing the meaning of al-masih in the minds of the christianized arab audience.

    the nasara as well, the chrstianized arabs, is used by the author to address specifically this group in contrast with the associators who are the chrsitians in general, if as Griffith points out, the nasara are in general the chrsitians of syriac liturgy, in contrast with the associators, the other christians
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10700 - April 07, 2022, 01:43 PM

    Altara,

    I was doing some refelctions.
    The production of quranic texts, in order to target Arab christians, specifically those elites enough educated to understand them, needed a context to make times mature for such an enterprise.
    We have a target, arab christians of the end 6th century.
    What does the quranic text want from them? 1- Convert, 2 - Be in competition with contemporary Christians (and in minor terms jews). The scope is to separate the Christians, create a division and control the new group.
    Only a political leadership may need something like this. The quran is not a text which is proposing a theological debate, is text which has its own theological positions and wants arabs to follow it.

    According to your post history, the quranic texts emerged in Mesopotamia in the hands of arab warlords who bring them along to the west. We see them in jerusalem with the construction of the preyer building and later in 643 in egypt (pilgirmage papyri). We have early testimonies of the arabs of muhammad, the muhammad of the folios.
    Well we see that these arabs are not the same who the quranic text was originally targeting becouse they do not understand the aramaism and the language of the quran.
    The arabs arriving with quranic texts come from outside the borders of Roman empire, far enough to still bear in mind the pre-chrsitian jerusalem name.

    Now, back to christianized arabs, focus of the quranic texts in its genesis, somehow these christianized arabs preserved the folios and trasmitted them to other arabs who did not share the same aramaic/historical background to be able to understand them. Is this too much an assumption? and the passge took place without trasmitting the necessary understanding?

    Second reflection, those who composed the qruanic folios, managed to have some success with the christianized arabs they were targeting?
    I did not find in the academics you usually suggest any indication of some sort of religious difference.
    I may say that if the folios survived, and were not destroyed as blasphemy, they had some meaning to someone who preserved them.

    Do you have any suggestion where to dig just do get an idea how to investigate above?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10701 - April 08, 2022, 01:34 PM


    Altara 


    Yes.

    Quote
      https://journals.openedition.org/remmm/246

    I keep studying the topic


    Good.


    Quote
    in position 18 of enclosed article, Donner writes
    “Néanmoins, la Doctrina Jacobi, texte polémique anti-juif, suggère que le Prophète « proclamait l'arrivée du Christ Oint qui allait venir ». Ce passage n'est pas encore complètement élucidé, et il serait imprudent de penser que cette seule phrase suffise pour établir la thèse d'un messianisme islamique primitif dont il n'existe aucune autre trace, notamment dans le Coran. dans la Doctrina Jacobi, cette expression est attribuée aux juifs de Césarée dans une lettre, en principe reçue du frère de l'antagoniste juif de Jacob, lettre dont le but évident est la réfutation des juifs. Comment donc devons-nous l'évaluer ? Mettre erreurs et tromperies dans la bouche de l'ennemi est en effet une tactique polémique bien connue. On hésite donc à accepter ce passage du texte comme la simple description objective d'un fait historique.”

    “Nevertheless, the anti-Jewish polemic Doctrina Jacobi suggests that the Prophet “proclaimed the coming of the Anointed Christ”. This passage is not yet fully elucidated, and it would be imprudent to think that this one sentence is sufficient to establish the thesis of an early Islamic messianism of which there is no other trace, notably in the Quran. In the Doctrina Jacobi, this expression is attributed to the Jews of Caesarea in a letter, supposedly received from the brother of Jacob's Jewish antagonist, whose obvious purpose is the refutation of the Jews. How, then, are we to evaluate it? Putting errors and deceptions in the mouth of the enemy is indeed a well-known polemical tactic. One therefore hesitates to accept this passage of the text as a simple objective description of a historical fact.”

     
    The letter:

    16. loustos prend la parole et dit : Tu dis vrai, et ceci est le grand salut : croire
    dans le Christ. Car je vais te confesser toute la vérité, messire Jacob. Mon frère
    Abraamès m’a écrit m (SI. : de Césarée) qu'un faux prophète est apparu (SI. : parmi
    les Saracènes} 116, “ Lorsque (SI. : Sergios) le Candidat fut tué par les Saracènes 117,
    j'étais à Césarée 11& - me dit Abraamès -, et j'allai en bateau à Sykamina ; on
    disait : Le Candidat a été tué! Et nous les Juifs, nous étions dans une grande joie.
    On disait que le prophète était apparu, venant avec les Saracènes, et qu'il proclamait
    l'arrivée du Christ Oint qui allait venir. Et moi (Abraamès), étant arrivé à
    Sykamina, je m'arrêtai chez un ancien très versé dans l'Ecriture 119, et je lui dis :
    ‘Que me dis-tu (SI. : seigneur et docteur,) du prophète qui est apparu avec les Saracènes?’
    Et il me répond en gémissant profondément: ‘C'est un faux prophète :les
    prophètes viennent-ils armés de pied en cap? Vraiment, les événements de ces derniers
    temps sont des oeuvres de désordre, et je crains que le premier Christ qui est
    venu, celui qu'adorent les Chrétiens, ne soit bien l'envoyé de Dieu, tandis que nous
    nous apprêtions à recevoir Hermolaos à la place.Isaïe disait en effet que les Juifs
    auraient un coeur perverti et endurci jusqu'à ce que toute la terre soit dévastée. Mais
    Abraamès, et renseigne-toi sur ce prophète qui est apparu’ . Et moi, Abraamès,
    ayant poussé 1 'enquête, j'appris de ceux qui l'avaient rencontré qu'on ne trouve rien
    d'authentique dans ce prétendu prophète :il n'est question que de massacres. Il dit
    aussi qu'il détient les clés du paradis 120, ce qui est incroyable. , Voilà ce que m'a
    écrit mon frère Abraamès d'Orient. Et moi, Ioustos, je crois au Christ né de la sainte
    Marie ( SI. : à Bethléem soixante-neuf semaines après la (re)construction du saint Temple de
    Dieu à Jérusalem, après le retour du peuple de Babylone, comme l'a prophétisé le prophète sans
    mensonge} ; je crois que c'est lui ( SI. : qu'ont annoncé la Loi et les prophètes,) que le Dieu
    Très-haut a envoyé sur la terre ( SI. : pour le salut du genre humain) , le sauveur et le roi
    d'Israël.
    Jacob dit : Messire Ioustos, veille à ce que ta bouche ne dise une chose tandis
    que ton coeur en conserve une autre, l'hostilité au Christ.
    Ioustos, en réponse, lui dit :Au nom du Seigneur Tout-puissant (SI. :qui a parlé
    à Moïse), qui connait le secret des coeurs, je crois de tout mon coeur, à partir
    d'aujourd'hui, au Christ qu'adorent les Chrétiens, qui est né à Bethléem de la sainte
    Marie ; j'en suis certain grâce à ton enseignement et aux révélations que j'ai eues par
    des visions.

    Quote
       It is the point you were making. The Doctrina, like Pseudo-Sebeos and John and the Amir are anti-Jewish polemical texts who do not pretend to describe real historical facts, but rather to use remote historical facts in the past and at distance, to accuse the Jews and/or involve them in the contemporary disasters.


     Yes.     

    Quote
      The Doctrina might be referring to Jewish messianic expectations during the Persian takeover of Jerusalem in 614.

     
    Yes.     

    Quote
    In this case it would make sense for a practising Jew to ask a learned Jew if the self proclaimed prophet coming among some Arabs, was real because that self proclaimed messiah was a Jew himself.

    Because this prophet announced the Messiah: “ Lorsque (SI. : Sergios) le Candidat fut tué par les Saracènes 117, j'étais à Césarée 11& - me dit Abraamès -, et j'allai en bateau à Sykamina ; on disait : Le Candidat a été tué! Et nous les Juifs, nous étions dans une grande joie. On disait que le prophète était apparu, venant avec les Saracènes, et qu'il proclamait l'arrivée du Christ Oint qui allait venir.”

    Quote
    If the Doctrina is referring to the Arab take over of Jerusalem in 634 then it means that the Doctrina is again accusing the Jews to be involved.


       Yes. 

    Quote
    In this case the accusation would be rather ridiculous for a Jew reading the Doctrina because he would laugh at a believing Jew assuming an Arab as a prophet proclaiming the arrival of the anointed one... to whom? TO Jews?


     1/ You forget that it was never supposed that Jews might read this text. 2/  Yes, to Jews. A litterati Jew would have been interested by this statement. The Arabs are the half brothers of the Jews according to Judaism. Jews have taught to the Arabs that they were sons of Abraham via Ishmael. (all of this is sourced).

    Quote
      Martin Kerr agrees as well because he mentions Donner article
    https://www.academia.edu/62960121/_Far%C3%BCqter_Heiland_et_le_%E1%B8%A4ajj_original_%C3%A0_J%C3%A9rusalem_Quelques_remarques_sur_le_messianisme_de_l_islam_naissant

    what i do not understand of Donner is why he has a bright observation of the Doctrina, but he struggles to be as much objective in relation to the other issues of Islamic origins.


     Because Donner is hold by the Muslim narrative whom he cannot escape.  (For me…) there is no other reason.   

    Quote
    With reference to Donner article and in connection to this one of  Griffith
    https://www.academia.edu/25530105/Griffith_SYRIACISMS_IN_THE_ArabIC_QURAN

    I was reflecting on the use of al-masih. In positions 8 9 and 10 Donner correctly reports that al masih has no messianic connection whatsoever and that Jesus of the Quran is a prophet like any other.

    To whom is addressed the Quran?  Idolators, polytheists, henotheists (Cf.Tesei) of Mecca/Kaba? I consider that it was addressed to a Christian audience. So when the Quran says ‘Jesus the Messiah’, it is what the Christian audience knows about him: Jesus is the Messiah. Nothing else as the Quran does not specify anything about the meaning of the word because the audience is supposed to know it. 

    Quote
    The quran wants to present its own messenger as the final prophet, it is a logical deduction that messianic expectations make little sense for a text who claims to be somehow final, no need of a messiah.


    (For me...) it wants to present its messenger to Arabs. It is not (at all) the same thing. For the rest, it is for the tradition that he is ‘the final prophet, etc.’

    Quote
    Indeed like Griffith points out on the use in an Arabic text of Aramaic expressions, these expressions, like Jesus being "triplet" lose their original Aramaic meaning and are used only polemically, depriving them of their original eschatological meaning and just hyperbolizing the meaning into something purely accusatory.


      More or less, yes.

    Quote
    So al-masih, used in polemical surah and without any messianic meaning, is basically just an epithet absorbed by the author, which, if read by Arab Christians, would cast in their mind the idea that the al-masih has no salvation mission.

     

     More or less. (For me, it is more complicated than that...)

    Quote
      The Quran is re-writing the meaning of al-masih in the minds of the Christianized Arab audience.

     

    Yes and no. Again, it is more complicated.

    Quote
      The Nasara as well, the de-christianized arabs, is used by the author to address specifically this group in contrast with the associators who are the christians in general, if as Griffith points out, the Nasara are in general the Christians of Syriac liturgy, in contrast with the associators, the other Christians.

     

    Nope, (for me...) the Nasara are the associators/mushrikun of the Quran, and both symbolize Christianity in the Quran. I know (…), it could be difficult to comprehend because the way the text says things, it is counter intuitive: the text names ‘Nasara’ and ‘mushrikun’ therefore it gives two different words, therefore two groups. But you can give two different names to one thing and the thing here is Christianity. And it is what happen here. Why the author(s) do that? I have a response to this question (but I won’t tell it here…).
    I identify the associators/ mushrikun with the Nasara: the Nasara are associators (Q 9:30). It is the way of Muslim themselves naturally identify Christians/ Christianity to associators/mushrikun: Kos Island inscriptions and John Damascus attest it. And Muslim naturally identified them like this because of the Quran even if never the Quran says that Christians are the mushrikun of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10702 - April 08, 2022, 05:05 PM


    Altara,

     

    Yes.

    Quote
    I was doing some reflections.

     

    Good.

    Quote
    The production of Quranic texts, in order to target Arabs Christians, specifically those elites enough educated to understand them, needed a context to make times mature for such an enterprise.

     

    Of course. That is why it takes time (before the 7th c.)

    Quote
    We have a target, Arabs Christians of the end 6th century.

     

    Middle le of the 6th c. Reflect.

    Quote
    What does the Quranic text want from them? 1- Convert, 2 – Be in competition with contemporary Christians (and in minor terms Jews). The scope is to separate the Christians, create a division and control the new group.

     

    Convert.

    Quote
    Only a political leadership may need something like this.

     

    Something like this.

    Quote
    The Quran is not a text which is proposing a theological debate,

     

    Yes, or ‘in dialogue’ as many scholars say. There is no ‘dialogue’, ‘conversation’, etc.

    Quote
    The Quran is a text which has its own theological positions and wants Arabs to follow it.     

     

    Yes. Now, what the Quran does? And why he does this? Reflect (need to know this history since post death of Jesus).

    Quote
    According to your post history, the Quranic texts emerged in Mesopotamia in the hands of Arabs warlords who bring them along to the west.

     
    1/ In Iraq (until Al Anbar). 2/ But it was not (at all) a thing constituted: leaders (who have nothing to see with Mecca/Kaba) have Quranic texts, not necessarily all and they build a House of prayer in Jerusalem in 637/38.

    Quote
    We see them in Jerusalem with the construction of the prayer building

     

    Yes.

     
    Quote
    and later in 643 in Egypt (pilgrimage papyri). We have early testimonies of the Arabs of Muhammad, the Muhammad of the folios.

     

    Yes.

    Quote
    Well we see that these Arabs are not the same who the Quranic text was originally targeting because they do not understand the Aramaism and the language of the Quran.

     

    Yes. These Arabs were not the first targeted. The sociology of the first was specific.

    Quote
    The Arabs arriving with Quranic texts come from outside the borders of Roman empire, far enough to still bear in mind the pre-Christian Jerusalem name.

     

    The pre 135 name.

    Quote
    Now, back to Christianized Arabs, focus of the Quranic texts in its genesis, somehow these Christianized Arabs preserved the folios and transmitted them to other Arabs who did not share the same Aramaic/historical background to be able to understand them. Is this too much an assumption? and the passage took place without transmitting the necessary understanding?

     

    Did they really ‘transmitted’ them? Is it not rather that those of the beginning of the 7th c. retrieved/found them without any contact with the first targeted? That is a good question. And that would explained many things.

    Quote
    Second reflection, those who composed the Quranic folios, managed to have some success with the Christianized Arabs they were targeting?

     

    Yes, because those texts survived. Were they believed? Somehow yes. One important point: It was the only texts in (without doubt) papyri (?) in Arabic. The importance and prestige of written texts was huge at that time, especially those about the Biblical God.

    Quote
    I did not find in the academics you usually suggest any indication of some sort of religious difference.
    I may say that if the folios survived, and were not destroyed as blasphemy, they had some meaning to someone who preserved them.

     

    1/ What are you meaning?
    2/ Yes, already responded.


    Quote
    Do you have any suggestion where to dig just do get an idea how to investigate above?

     

    Yes, identify/spot the key points which have lead to the writing of the Quranic texts.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10703 - April 10, 2022, 09:08 AM

    https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1512241514243624966
    Quote
    Lots of food for thought in Majied Robinson's "The Population Size of Muḥammad’s Mecca and the Creation of the Quraysh," Der Islam (2022)
    https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/islam-2022-0002/html


    The answer is 552, at least according to this bit of optimistic historical reconstruction.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10704 - April 10, 2022, 10:59 AM

    https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1512241514243624966
    The answer is 552, at least according to this bit of optimistic historical reconstruction.


    what is that number 552 dear zeca? you mean to say there were 552 folks living in that Mecca town during the Prophet of Islam time??  If it is .. What year those folks  were living in that town..  At the time of Prophet's death? .. which according to Islamic stories it is around year 632..  or around the time of  Prophet's birth??

    I completely agree to DISAGREE with many of Majied Robinson's .. Islamic stories....

    https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/history/people/mjr31

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10705 - April 10, 2022, 11:05 AM

    what is that number 552 dear zeca? you mean to say there were 552 folks living in that Mecca town during the Prophet of Islam time?? 


    Yes, at least according to Majied Robinson's calculation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10706 - April 12, 2022, 01:47 PM

    What? Altara deleted his cheeky post  on Mecca of 5th/6th century and that number 552 folks living in that deserted area ..I wonder why?
    Yes, at least according to Majied Robinson's calculation.

    Just curious .. how did Majied  came to that number ? what quantum calculations and quantum assumptions did he make to come to that number 552 dear zeca?? any reference for that??

    Rafat Amari'

    Ian D. Morris

    Islam: In Light Of History.  pdf

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10707 - April 12, 2022, 02:11 PM

    What? Altara deleted his cheeky post  on Mecca of 5th/6th century and that number 552 folks living in that deserted area ..I wonder why? Just curious .. how did Majied  came to that number ? what quantum calculations and quantum assumptions did he make to come to that number 552 dear zeca?? any reference for that??


    I'm not going to be paying £23 to access the article so I've only got what's shown in Sean Anthony's tweet to go on. Here's the abstract:
    Quote
    In this paper we will show how Qurashī patrilines and marriage records can be statistically analysed to generate an estimate of the tribe’s size at the time of Muḥammad. By extension this will also give us an estimate for the population size of Mecca. We will begin by using the marriage data preserved in a genealogical work to identify a cohort of adult Qurashī male contemporaries of Muḥammad. We will then divide this cohort into men who had brothers versus those who did not. It will be shown that this ratio is exactly what we would expect if we were modelling a complete population and therefore it cannot be a sample. With this in place we can extrapolate the number of women and dependants that would have been linked to each man, giving us an estimate of the tribe’s size in the period. Supplementing this with selected historiographical data will give us the population size of Mecca. The resulting findings raise a series of questions concerning Qurashī origins that will then be addressed by applying a similar methodology to the eras before Muḥammad’s. This will illuminate the manner and timing of the emergence of the Quraysh as a distinct entity

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10708 - April 12, 2022, 02:27 PM

    I'm not going to be paying £23 to access the article so I've only got what's shown in Sean Anthony's tweet to go on.
    Here's the abstract:  https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/islam-2022-0002/html




    A journal that is publishing papers on such subjects  since 1910 and accepts such calculated data sets as facts of history tells me its value and its strength..

    Mecca ...  From the journal Der Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10709 - April 18, 2022, 08:00 AM

    Marijn van Putten - Copto-Arabica: The Phonology of Early Islamic Arabic Based on Coptic Transcriptions

    https://www.academia.edu/46885698/Copto_Arabica_The_Phonology_of_Early_Islamic_Arabic_Based_on_Coptic_Transcriptions
    Quote
    This paper builds on the important work that has been done in recent years on the phonology of pre-Islamic and early Islamic Arabic based on the transcriptions of names in Greek papyri. This paper expands the view by looking at transcriptions of Arabic names in the early Islamic period based in Coptic papyri.


    The prophetic name: https://twitter.com/DerMenschensohn/status/1515384254397620229
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