Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #10650 - February 23, 2022, 11:24 AM

Quote from: Altara on February 22, 2022, 02:06 PM
Al-Jallad
The Damascus Psalm Fragment (the earliest Arabic text written in Greek letters)
Free book
https://www.academia.edu/43189829/Al_Jallad_2020_The_Damascus_Psalm_Fragment_Middle_Arabic_and_the_Legacy_of_Old_%E1%B8%A4ig%C4%81z%C4%AB_w_a_contribution_by_R_Vollandt

Thanks for that Little booklet link dear Altara., Ahmad with his hardworking stellar work is CUTTING THE SPOILED ROOTS ARBIAN HISTORY And I am glad some one(his parents??) named him as Ahmad Not as usual "Muhammad"

anyways let me put here another direct link of that booklet where one can click and download to read it

The Damascus Psalm Fragment (the earliest Arabic text written in Greek letters by Ahmad Al-Jallad

along with that , it is worth reading Ronny Vollandt publications on the pre-Islamic and early Islamic history of the cultures that were around Arabian peninsula ...

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Reply #10651 - February 23, 2022, 06:28 PM

Damascus psalm fragment:

Door is left ajar for the psalm fragment being pre-islamic...
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Reply #10652 - February 23, 2022, 07:03 PM

Quote from: mundi on February 23, 2022, 06:28 PM
Damascus psalm fragment:

Door is left ajar for the psalm fragment being pre-islamic...

DOOR IS LEFT OPEN?? You appears to be right but did you mean to say "Ahmad did not get that radiocarbon dating on that?"

could you please give refs on your point of view dear mundi..

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Reply #10653 - February 23, 2022, 07:58 PM

Radiocarbondating of Damascus PF:

That is impossible since only (German) pics are left... the rest disappeared more than a century ago in the Turkish archives.
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Reply #10654 - February 23, 2022, 09:06 PM

Quote from: mundi on February 23, 2022, 07:58 PM
Radiocarbondating of Damascus PF:

That is impossible since only (German) pics are left... the rest disappeared more than a century ago in the Turkish archives.

I think you do have a point there., And I do not see any good reason for some one to write Arabic text with Greek letters.,

Now question to you., assuming such manuscript did exist., is it possible to put some tentative date on it ? say that one was written before these sana manuscripts ?? or after those Sana Manuscripts ....

Anyway I like this guy and his work on Arabic language

Anton Baumstark (1872–1948)

and I am trying to read his work...and his line of thinking

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Reply #10655 - February 23, 2022, 09:41 PM

Yeeez,

Have you read Ahmad's book? Or scrolled through it?
I think not!

Ahmad compares the Arabic of the Damascus PF with the QCT and comes to the conclusion they are practically the same.
So he reasons that the Arabs from Mecca brought their dialect to Damascus and people there start talking that exact dialect almost perfectly and then write that down in Greek letters.
Vollant thinks that happened in the 8-9th C.

So that dialect (Old Hijazi) managed to bridge perfectly a geographical distance of 2000km and a time difference of 200 years (Quran written around 600). I think that the probability of this being a correct scenario is rather low.
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Reply #10656 - February 23, 2022, 10:03 PM

Quote from: mundi on February 23, 2022, 09:41 PM
Yeeez,

Have you read Ahmad's book? Or scrolled through it?
I think not!

....

you are correct on that., I had that pdf file for a long time but could not go reading beyond 10 pages..

Quote
Vestiges of Case
adverbial -a
The adverbial ending -a is attested twice in the word γεδδα [ǧeddā] “very,” and it is no doubt a reflex of the old indefinite accusative [ā] < *an. As in many of the modern dialects of Arabic, this morpheme has been semantically narrowed to an adverbial marker, which was only
one of its many original functions.69 On its form, Corriente compares it with many modern dialectal forms, such as Moroccan ḥaqqa “truly” and abada “never,” and regards the final [a] as the only true reflex of the adverbial accusative in the modern dialects, the [an] variant, as

in šukran “thank you!,” being a loan from Classical Arabic.70

The Genitive Case

The deletion of final short vowels in theory would not have affected the expression of case in nouns with pronominal clitics, but a very natural analogical change would have leveled both forms to a caseless stem.71 In most cases, forms with pronominal suffixes do not take a case vowel: v. 22 γαλα χαλασὑ [ʕ

Now I am at 22 page that you see above ,, I don't think I can read beyond that... BUT I LIKE THAT WORD in šukran “thank you..

I don't think Ahmad knows origins of that word.... But I must say he is a great guy...

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Reply #10657 - February 23, 2022, 10:16 PM

Yeez,

Read p 67 and a bit further.
Apparently, the grammarians called everything that was Western 'Hijazi'and the Eastern variants 'Tamimi'. That puts Van Putten's Hijazi origins of the QCT also in perspective?
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Reply #10658 - February 23, 2022, 10:48 PM

Quote from: mundi on February 23, 2022, 10:16 PM
Yeez,

Read p 67 and a bit further.
Apparently, the grammarians called everything that was Western 'Hijazi'and the Eastern variants 'Tamimi'. That puts Van Putten's Hijazi origins of the QCT also in perspective?

I will read through that book but more important for me is reading Quran.. Again and again...., I WOULD COMPLETELY REJECT THAT QURANIC LANGUAGE IS ORIGINATED IN WETERN HIJAJ of present Saudi Arabia

I think there were Bible stories that were floating around SA in some sort of written story manuscripts., in some sort of early Arabic language., and I say they are NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PRESENT BOOK

As far as that green area is concerned ..Who knows people may have been traveling from places such as Saint Catherine's Monastery of Sinai to all the way to Sana through the coastal Area of Arabia.. So the point is....... languages. stories...... old manuscripts travel through people

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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Reply #10659 - March 02, 2022, 12:40 AM

Interpolations in the Quran with Marijn van Putten
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GaOq1mFR1Y

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Reply #10660 - March 02, 2022, 01:20 PM

Quote from: zeca on March 02, 2022, 12:40 AM
Interpolations in the Quran with Marijn van Putten
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GaOq1mFR1Y

Interpolations in Quran

That is a good one..

but interpolations?? Just Interpolations?

forget Interpolations., rascals added junk in to Quranic manuscripts in the middle of a verse in many Quranic verses for loot and booty before it became dimwit book for STUPID PEOPLE who do not use their brain to read a book,

and... and I am glad to notice that Marijn put his book pdf file available freely to download and read

Quranic Arabic., From its Hijazi Origins to its Classical Reading Traditions. pdf

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Reply #10661 - March 02, 2022, 04:40 PM

MVP thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1497310468301627396?cxt=HHwWiIC92YL8wccpAAAA
Quote
So the grammarians tell us what Classical Arabic is, but it turns out to be a nearly inexhaustible collection of different options. So if the Quran is composed in "Classical Arabic" which is it.

Chapter 3 asks: do the Quranic reading traditions give insight?

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Reply #10662 - March 02, 2022, 04:47 PM

MVP thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1498392856213573639
Quote
In these summaries of the chapters of my new book, we've now arrived at chapter 4. The reading traditions do not give a clear answer as to what the language of the Quran is, so what must we turn to? I argue the very earliest source of Quranic Arabic: the consonantal text.

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Reply #10663 - March 03, 2022, 06:02 PM

MVP thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1499173480822157313
Quote
So in my previous thread I showed that, morphologically the Quran clearly appears to be Hijazi. But what can we say about its phonology? Is it similar? Let's do a summary of at chapter 5 of my new book!

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Reply #10664 - March 09, 2022, 02:21 PM

MVP thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1500107127301492739
Quote
So if chapter 4 and 5 show us that the Quran was composed in Hijazi Arabic, and ch. 3 shows us that the qirāʾāt are not Hijazi, something must have happened in the meantime. The composition was "classicized", that's what chapter 6 and 7 are about. Today I summarize chapter 6!

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Reply #10665 - March 09, 2022, 02:23 PM

MVP thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1500955045755604994?cxt=HHwWhMC-4ayqu9QpAAAA
Quote
Who would've thought it'd take this long to write a summary of one's book? But we're almost at the end, chapter 7! Here we will look at what I assume will be the most controversial part of my book, evidence that the Classical System if ʾiʿrāb and tanwīn were added in recitation.

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Reply #10666 - March 09, 2022, 02:25 PM

MVP thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1501305513920765960
Quote
So in my summary of threads about my book, we've finally arrived at the last chapter, chapter 8. The chapter that aims to wrap it all up!

I've argued that the Quran was originally composed in Hijazi Arabic, and that it was classicized over time to form how it is recited today.

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Reply #10667 - March 09, 2022, 02:49 PM

Thread: https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1501194310062157828
Quote
It looks like it's not open access but Ahmad al-Jallad has published an article in Biblical Archaeology about a Safaitic inscription in Wadi al-Khudari (Jordan) that might explain why the Qur'an names Jesus ʿĪsā and not Yasūʿ.

The inscription (which likely dates before the 4th cen) calls on ʿsy to “help him against those who deny you” using the roots nṣr and kfr.

The find suggests that Christianity had spread among Arabic speakers much earlier, and much more widely, than is commonly thought, and that the Qur'an is engaging with a robust Arab Christian culture.

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Reply #10668 - March 11, 2022, 09:12 AM

Sara Ronis - Imagining the Other: The Magical Arab in Rabbinic Literature

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/848487/pdf

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Reply #10669 - March 11, 2022, 09:18 AM

Thread: https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1501959841505550336?cxt=HHwWgIC5vZShhNgpAAAA
Quote
My thoughts on whether or not the Qur'an (Maryam 19:29 ff) took the story of Jesus defending his mother from accusations of adultery from a Vorlage of the Arabic Infancy Gospel

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Reply #10670 - March 11, 2022, 11:08 PM

Thread: https://twitter.com/DanielABeck9/status/1479834582333616129
Quote
One of the best books in Quranic Studies in recent years is Zishan Ghaffar's superb analysis of middle Meccan surahs and their relation to contemporaneous imperial politics and eschatology. Being super expensive and in German has kept its profile low.

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Reply #10671 - March 12, 2022, 12:52 PM

Quote from: zeca on March 11, 2022, 11:08 PM
Thread: https://twitter.com/DanielABeck9/status/1479834582333616129

One of the best books in Quranic Studies in recent years is Zishan Ghaffar's superb analysis of middle Meccan surahs and their relation to contemporaneous imperial politics and eschatology. Being super expensive and in German has kept its profile low.

Sorry .. I am out of that Mecca and Medina business., It is hopeless to analyze Quran as Mecca_Medina Verses., which in fact I used to believe such possibility existed.,

Chronological History of Islam

Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran

But after reading Quran and reading Altara posts here and many others (Including me) Who questions existence Mecca during the times of writing Quran manuscripts ., I say any analysis of Quran based upon Mecca /Medina verses is useless and has no foundations.. They have to come up with a different Idea where the origins of Quran manuscripts is NOTHING TO DO WITH PRESENT Mecca Or Medina

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M--nTIdtZXA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6LIVJSHogo&t=54s

anyway let me read some Some Zeshan's work from Acidemia

That Jpeg pic has the book PDF file in it

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #10672 - March 12, 2022, 01:08 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on March 12, 2022, 12:52 PM
Sorry .. I am out of that Mecca and Medina business., It is hopeless to analyze Quran as Mecca_Medina Verses., which in fact I used to believe such possibility existed., But after reading Quran and reading Altara posts here and many others (Including me) Who questions existence Mecca during the times of writing Quran manuscripts ., I say any analysis of Quran based upon Mecca /Medina verses is useless and has no foundations.. They have to come up with a different Idea where the origins of Quran manuscripts is NOTHING TO DO WITH PRESENT Mecca Or Medina

..........................................................
anyway let me read some Some Zeshan's work from Acidemia

(Clicky for piccy!)

Zishan Ghaffar/ Klaus von Stosch
Theology of Prophecy in Dialogue A Jewish-Christian-Muslim Encounter.pdf
Conference at the university of Paderborn 8/23-8/25/2021

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Reply #10673 - March 12, 2022, 03:38 PM

Daniel Beck is a lawyer. All is said I think.
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Reply #10674 - March 12, 2022, 03:39 PM

Rome and the Sasanian Empire in the Fifth Century A.D: A Necessary Peace
Thesis Submitted in Accordance with the Requirements of the University of
Liverpool for the degree of Doctor in Philosophy by
Craig Morley
Feburary 2015

https://livrepository.liverpool.ac.uk/2025143/1/MorleyCra_Feb2015_2025143.pdf
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Reply #10675 - March 14, 2022, 12:40 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F44Zuimyukg
Quote
The writings of Jacob of Serugh (d. 520/1) have been highlighted as one of the most significant corpora for understanding the late antique literary environment in which the Qur’ān emerged. His homilies and letters contain many exegetical and theological traditions common to the Qur’ān and the Syriac tradition. How are we to understand echoes of Jacob’s thought in the Qur’ān? Who had access to these texts and the traditions they transmit? This lecture seeks to shed light on this complex of questions by examining the circulation of Jacob’s writings in the sixth and seventh centuries. We will first investigate Jacob’s correspondence with communities within and beyond the Roman Empire during his lifetime. We will then turn to the physical manuscripts that preserve his writings from late antiquity. This approach will help identify the late antique communities that discussed these shared traditions and thereby grant insight into the question of what it means to investigate Jacob’s works as texts from the environment of the Qur’ān.

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Reply #10676 - March 14, 2022, 02:37 PM

About MVP book.
1/ MVP relies totally on the traditional narrative.
The main scholarly purpose of the MVP book is linguistic : Is the QCT a 'poetic koiné'? He shows that it is not: '(As mentioned in section § 4.1 it was Rabin’s claim that, while Quranic Arabic was phonologically perhaps somewhat adapted to the local Hijazi dialect, it morphologically adhered almost completely to the poetic koiné. The problem is that Rabin—nor to my knowledge any other author—ever defines what exactly the features morphological or otherwise of this poetic koiné are.)'.
It is a vernacular language. From where? To answer he uses and rely on the traditional narrative: 'Hijazi/Qurashi'. Terms that he does not define since they are already defined in the traditional narrative.
MVP brings no new informations which could enlighten the historian about the place, time, etc. of the (written) composition of the text.
The interesting point is that he identifies a language to Mecca/Kaba, ignoring the fact that they are plausibly inexistent when one looks at the sources.
A language can be written down everywhere: it is not (automatically) stuck to a place. A language can be chosen to write something because the 'something' need to. What the Quranic texts needed? It needed to be written in an Arabic language outside of the Biblical Revelation sphere/area.
Why? Simply because to escape to the accusation to be a fake, plagiarism, forgery, etc. This point was so important that the text itself address it: (16,103 ; 25,4-5 ; 26,195-199 ; 41,44 ; 44,13-14). Therefore it was mandatory to write it in a Arabic where Christianity was absent whereas it was present everywhere (Iraq, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, Egypt).
Figure out an Arabic language where Christianity was absent, in the Quranic texts positing regularly that the Quranic language is "clear Arabic language" (5 occurrences) as though it was not for all the readers because of the multiple dialects, and that this phrase was to persuade it was, especially for the ones who would be foreigners to it, and (as though) there was 'one' clear Arabic language- whereas we know that there was many dialects- is a part of the 'Revelation' and therefore have to be believed as such because it is God who seems speaking in this text.
What evidence have we that the grammarians (generally of Persians first language/native tongue) have heard people of the Hijaz speaking the Quranic language and that they not working only with the Quranic text, and name its language 'Hijazi' as the narrative told them?
We have no evidence. And MVP is mute about that.

2/ "In its morphological and phonetic features, the language of the QCT is clearly Hijazi Arabic. Occasionally this can be corroborated by pre-Islamic Arabic epigraphic evidence as well."

MVP provide nothing (maps/inscriptions, articles) to ground (t)his point.
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Reply #10677 - March 14, 2022, 03:56 PM

Quote
What evidence have we that the grammarians (generally of Persians first language/native tongue) have heard people of the Hijaz speaking the Quranic language and that they not working only with the Quranic text, and name its language 'Hijazi' as the narrative told them?

Would you expect there to be much difference between the language of the Quranic text and the language of early Islamic papyri? If this is essentially the form of written Arabic used by the Umayyad administration then the attribution to the Hijaz may be because of the grammarians 'knowing' (rightly or wrongly) that that was where the ruling elite originated from rather than having any direct evidence for the way Arabic was spoken in Mecca and Medina a couple of centuries earlier.

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Reply #10678 - March 14, 2022, 07:09 PM

How the grammarians could knew that the Umayyad came from the 'Hijaz' if they had not experienced this language there- apart from the knowledge of the narrative?
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Reply #10679 - March 19, 2022, 10:42 PM

The Real Origins of Islam with Peter Von Sivers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_QUvlNvphM
Quote
Were the Arabs Christians of some sort reacting to other versions of Christianity during the 600s? Dr. Peter Von Sivers breaks down the history leading up to the Quran and the life of Muhammad. This is a highly educational discussion of the zeitgeist in the middle east during this time and how this may be the key to really understanding how Islam began.

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