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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10560 - November 30, 2021, 06:54 AM

    Altara, 

    A question regarding the doctrina jacobi.
    I am re reading the arguments that suggest to not associate it with muhammad.
    There few points which are not clear to me.
    The doctrina says that the prophet came with the arabs.
    Now, do we have any source showing that other self proclaimed prophets came with arabs? It is the fact that the doctrina says with the arabs that i am unable to explain.
    I find no record of any other prophet with arab support.
    Or how can we explain it?
    And it says that the prophet holds the keys of paradise which is
    An expression to describe a salvific role.
    Is it in conflict with muhammad narrative?
    Considering that it is christian text describing the episode, it may be a christian expression .

    Thanks
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10561 - December 01, 2021, 01:06 PM

    Altara

    Here is the link to Antony work
    https://www.academia.edu/3689606/_Mu%E1%B8%A5ammad_the_Keys_to_Paradise_and_the_Doctrina_Iacobi_A_Late_Antique_Puzzle_Der_Islam_91_2_2014_243_265

    some time ago in your post https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg887530#msg887530

    you reported an extract of Parker.
    I understand in part this criticism of antony. Indeed what I was thinking is who is this arab propeht, or a prophet from among the saracens?
    Is it sufficient to refute the association of Antony using this argument, and just saying that it can be any other prophet? or is it historically necessary to provide some alternative identification?

    And do you have a reference to Parker article?
    I do not find it
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10562 - December 01, 2021, 10:29 PM

    Altara, 

    A question regarding the doctrina Jacobi.
    I am re reading the arguments that suggest to not associate it with Muhammad.
    There few points which are not clear to me.
    The doctrina says that the prophet came with the Arabs.

    'appears' not 'came'.

    Quote
    Now, do we have any source showing that other self proclaimed prophets came with Arabs?

    To my knowledge nope.

    Quote
    It is the fact that the doctrina says with the Arabs that i am unable to explain.
    I find no record of any other prophet with Arab support.
    Or how can we explain it?

    Who in the DJ tells this story?
    Once you have responded to this question, you have an explication.


    Quote
    And it says that the prophet holds the keys of paradise which is
    An expression to describe a salvific role.


    What is the Paradise for the people who tells this story?

    Quote
    Is it in conflict with Muhammad narrative?


    This story has (for me...) nothing to see with 'Muhammad'
    Quote
    Considering that it is Christian text describing the episode, it may be a Christian expression.

    Who in the DJ tells this story?
    Once you have responded to this question, you have an explication.

    Quote
    Thanks


    NP.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10563 - December 02, 2021, 08:29 AM


    That's correct. It was in French and I've translated it with DeepL. He had published it in his Academia account. Parker account have disappeared  from Academia.
    Quote
    I understand in part this criticism of Antony. Indeed what I was thinking is who is this Arab prophet, or a prophet from among the Saracens?

    I will give you the same response than precedingly : Who is telling the story of this 'prophet' in the DJ?  Why this person tell this peculiar story? That's the question to pose. And when you respond to those questions, you understand.

    Quote
    Is it sufficient to refute the association of Antony using this argument, and just saying that it can be any other prophet? or is it historically necessary to provide some alternative identification?

    I consider that Parker's arguments are relevant.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10564 - December 02, 2021, 01:59 PM

    Thanks.

    Jacob, a supposedly christianized jew has a conversation with justus, another jew forcibly converted, who is reporting a letter from abraham, his brother, still a jew.
    Now if we have a jew reporting the story who is speaking of a prophet appeared among the saracens, holding the keys of paradise and proclaiming the arrival of the annointed one.

    Abraham goes to discuss this prophet with a man versed in scripture and the answer we know.

    Now we have this report in a cheistian text set in the mouth of a jew.

    The keys of paradise as shown by antony is a christian topic, which has been absorbed by later islamic tradition and this is e argument used by antony to say that the expression " he has the keys of paradise" is a generic expression

    Antony ignores that abraham is of jewish religion and that for him the keys of paradise and the annointed one are not the same as for the christian tradition.

    What i wonder is why the story of a prophet who appears among the saracens survives only in a text like the doctrina in the mouth of a jew.

    Please Altara, am i missing anything?
    I am studying the jewish understanding of the keys, but i find sources that for them the first temple keys were given back to God before the destruction by babilonians.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10565 - December 02, 2021, 06:39 PM

    Quote
    Jacob, a supposedly Christianized Jew has a conversation with Justus, another Jew forcibly converted, who is reporting a letter from Abraham, his brother, still a Jew.


    That's correct. It is a Jewish story told by Abraham which is a Jew. As a Jew he sees the events in his Jewish view: the liberation of Israel from its enemies. Here the liberation is acted by Arabs: Arabs are more than the cousins of Israel, they are part of the covenant via Ishmael : it is the Jewish doctrine vis a vis the Arabs : they have taught   them that they were the sons of Ishmael (all of this is of course sourced and grounded as you know). This Abraham told a story that a 'prophet' appears (he is not saying that he is Arab) and this 'prophet' announce the Messiah, the liberator of Israel which will be free  thanks to the Arabs.

    Quote
    Abraham goes to discuss this prophet with a man versed in scripture and the answer we know.

    It is here, that one can see Judaism : both opinions are stated : hope with Abraham and prudence by the Jewish literati.
    Quote
    Now we have this report in a Christian text set in the mouth of a Jew.

    That's what's so interesting: in a Christian text Jewish opinions are stated.

    Quote
    The keys of paradise as shown by Antony is a Christian topic,


    I'm not agree on this. It is also a Jewish topic: the Paradise is the liberation of Israel and an era of peace and prosperity. This idea is still proclaimed today by Judaism: the World To Come is not necessarily seen as the life after death but also as the world in peace that the Messiah will commit.

    Quote
    which has been absorbed by later islamic tradition and this is e argument used by Antony to say that the expression " he has the keys of paradise" is a generic expression

    It is not.
    Quote
    Antony ignores that Abraham is of Jewish religion and that for him the keys of paradise and the anointed one are not the same as for the Christian tradition.

     
    I consider that Anthony (and others) are wrong with their premises. Yes, the Paradise is (also) the liberation of Israel. This expression belongs both to Judaism and Christianity for totally different outcomes.
     
    Quote
    What i wonder is why the story of a prophet who appears among the saracens survives only in a text like the doctrina in the mouth of a jew.


    Interesting question. The more interesting is why eminent scholars like Anthony (and others) do no know reading a text.

    Quote
    Please Altara, am i missing anything?

    In any case you pose interesting questions .
    Quote
    I am studying the jewish understanding of the keys, but i find sources that for them the first temple keys were given back to God before the destruction by babilonians.


    The Key to Paradise is an expression sufficiently unclear to belong both to the Judaism post Christianity (Rabbanism) and to Christianity

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10566 - December 02, 2021, 07:28 PM

    Thanks Altara,

    The other strange point is this:
    http://andrewjacobs.org/translations/doctrina.html
    Here i post a translation.
    It says that the prophet came with saracens, but not himself was one.
    Then abrahan goes to this expert man who says that the Jews would accept hermenelos rather than jesus. Becouse they have a hard heart. I assume a jew would go to a rabbi, sorry for the anachronism.
    Then it says that abraham investigates among those who met him.

    The episod cannot be read outside the context of harmenelos and we see a jew asking another jew who seems acknowledge jesus in opposition to harmenelos.

    The episode is built upon an apologetic. Abraham letter is both a criticism of judaism (their joy for the death of the candidatus, their self admittance of the hard heart and proclivity to accept false messiah)

    It remains that abraham investigates among those who he thinks met him and finds out the he is preaching the anointed one and the keys of paradise in contrast to the gospels.

    Either this prophet is really one among many or it may be that really we have one of usual references to the quranic messenger mixed with christian anti jewish propaganda considering the nature of the doctrina.

    Even if we assume the second case it would not contraddict your idea becouse abraham does not meet him, but he assumes he met his followers.
    The rest is the reverse of christian topics (apostles and the church have the keys of paradise and vs the role of christ)

    It is how reliable is the story of abraham who speaks with those who met him.
    Is it abraham assumption or is this real?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10567 - December 03, 2021, 02:04 PM

     
    That's correct. It was in French and I've translated it with DeepL. He had published it in his Academia account. Parker account have disappeared  from Academia.................

    I consider that Parker's arguments are relevant.

    Quote
    Altara earlier post on Parker's work

    Quote
    I add a translation (DeepL) of Parker's paper devoted (in part) about what one sees in the way how Antony address the topic in his content as Anthony starts in the same way as Crone to establish the existence of Muhammad:  the Doctrina Jacobi . Parker's paper was published in Academia before Anthony's book.

    "Actually, not really. "The only way ..." would have been to question, first of all, the foundation of this tradition: the existence, in the supposed historical framework of "Mecca/Medina/Prophet Muhammad", of the figure presented as having produced the Koranic corpus in a specific place and time.
    Quote
    And according to it, none other. Having fully understood the problem, that she [Crone] is in fact only "starting over" in part, she is working to resolve it following this explanatory memorandum.
    She  does so by exhorting from an external source (the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati/ The Teaching of Jacob, the Newly Baptized) accepted as contemporary to the events of the 7th century and featuring a prophetic figure accompanying arriving Arabs. From the research that knows the rest of the story,   

    ......the link is made with the figure that produces the Koranic corpus presented by the - later - Muslim narrative. Who else could it be? These events of the 7th century in Palestine-Syria obviously reflect the jihād ordered by the Prophet Muḥammad as narrated by Muslim historiography.
    It turns out that it can be difficult to pass such a source to a rigorous examination when it allows us to evacuate the thorny subject of the historical existence of Muhammad by identifying him with the prophetic figure of the  Doctrina Jacobi. So intense is the significance of the framework "Mecca/Medina/Prophet Muḥammad" that this identification is recorded: Muḥammad, the producer of the Koran, (or putative author of "prophetic logia" intended to be rewritten and completed and giving the current Koran according to some researchers), in Mecca/Medina, is a historical figure. Confers what Antoine Borrut says: "This rejection of Arab-Muslim sources has been accompanied by a new interest in non-Muslim sources, primarily Christian and Jewish. Some of these texts are indeed interesting because they are contemporary to the first decades of Islam, and in particular make it possible to establish the existence of a historical Muḥammad. ».
    However, to these two theories which present the Muhammad of Mecca as an author of all or part of the Koranic corpus, and as soon as he is identified by research with the prophetic figure of the Doctrina Jacobi, two objections will be raised. One is that the Qur'an abundantly describes an end of the world and does not present,2 nor does it announce, any "return of a Messiah". Yet the Doctrina Jacobi (remarkably) does the opposite. Another objection is that it is the only text (there are many) relating the conflicting events of the 7th century that testifies, on the Arab side, to a messianic proclamation. If this idea was common to the Arabs of the time, one would expect to find it in other authors of the 7th century. This is (obviously) not the case. This is why we will rule out the identification of the prophetic figure of the Doctrina Jacobi  with the one who would be the author of "logia" from Mecca and the Muslim narrative.
    So what about the messianic announcement of the Doctrina Jacobi ? It may have come from another agenda. It would not be the first time that the rhetorical procedure of putting into the mouths of some people a discourse that does not belong to them would be used. [...]
    In conclusion, contrary to what A. Borrut says and before him P. Crone, no text from the 7th century, including the  Doctrina Jacobi , attests to the existence of a historical Muḥammad belonging to the "Mecca/Medina/Kaʿba/Ḥijāz" framework identified as the author of all or part of the Koran. "



    I wonder whether you could give me the link of your DEEP translation or/and Parker's publication in French .. 

    And... and I have no idea why you write the way you write about this wonderful person

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cJGWX6xPdQ

    well dear Altara .,  She died 6 years ago.... I yet to read a publication from you on Muhammad (PBUH)RA..Da...saw.. whatever  figure head of Islam .... is NOT from Mecca ..Medina.....,

    I hope I will read in my life time..  NOT YOUR BOOK.. but a publication ...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10568 - December 06, 2021, 09:26 AM

    I have translated what is relevant about the DJ topic. About P. Crone I have (only) a scholarly opinion, nothing else. She used the DJ (Hagarism, p.4-5) to establish the existence of Muhammad and Anthony did the same. That is all. I consider that the DJ have nothing to see with the 'Muhammad' of the Muslim narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10569 - December 06, 2021, 10:40 AM

    Thanks Altara,

    The other strange point is this:
    http://andrewjacobs.org/translations/doctrina.html
    Here i post a translation.
    It says that the prophet came with Saracens, but not himself was one.


    That's correct. It is never said that the 'prophet' is a Saracen.  It is 'a' prophet appearing 'with' the Saracens.
    It is (for me...) perfectly logical: Arabs are liberating Israel from its ennemies. It is necessary that, as it is a divine intervention, an abstract prophetic figure be more or less present: it is the Jewish way of thinking political event regarding Israel. Here it deals with with the liberation and the announce of the Messiah: all of this is part of the Jewish ways to think how the events happens about the liberation of Israel: a 'prophet' announce the coming of the Messiah,,etc.



    Quote
    Then Abraham goes to this expert man who says that the Jews would accept Hermalaos rather than Jesus. Because they have a hard heart. I assume a Jew would go to a rabbi, sorry for the anachronism. Then it says that Abraham investigates among those who met him.
    The episode cannot be read outside the context of Hermalaos and we see a Jew asking another Jew who seems acknowledge Jesus in opposition to Hermalaos.
    The episode is built upon an apologetic. Abraham letter is both a criticism of Judaism (their joy for the death of the candidatus, their self admittance of the hard heart and proclivity to accept false messiah)


    From this moment ( Hermalaos/Armilius) we are (for me...) in an accessory topic which is not related to the fact to know if 'the prophet came with Saracens,' is the Muhammad of the Muslim narrative.
    Of course, it is an interesting topic, but outside (for me...) the main one.

    Quote
    It remains that Abraham investigates among those who he thinks met him and finds out the he is preaching the anointed one and the keys of paradise in contrast to the gospels.


    The DJ is a complicated book. There is different versions, interpolations, etc. It would necessitate a complete study to elucidate what you point out (which are, of course, interesting questions) but I consider them accessory regarding my main topic.

    Quote
    Either this prophet is really one among many or it may be that really we have one of usual references to the qur'anic messenger mixed with Christian anti Jewish propaganda considering the nature of the doctrina.


    I think that what we read about what Abraham says is perfectly Jewish and follow the main way how the Jewish thought thinks the end of time: liberation of Israel and a prophetic figure announcing the Messiah. All of this has nothing to do with the 'Muhammad' of the late Muslim narrative inventing an Arab prophet in Mecca/Medina/Kaba. Jews (here Abraham)  interpret political events with the Jewish view. Is the prophet is 'Arab'? There is no affirmation of this because if it was Arab, it would not fit with the Jewish view: there is no non Jew prophet. It is as simple as that. So the identification of the prophet is not intentionally done by Abraham. All of this is rationale, logical from a Jewish point of view, as I think that the statement of Abraham is a pure Jewish statement.

    Quote
    Even if we assume the second case it would not contradict your idea because Abraham does not meet him, but he assumes he met his followers.
    The rest is the reverse of Christian topics (apostles and the church have the keys of paradise and vs the role of christ)
    It is how reliable is the story of Abraham who speaks with those who met him. Is it Abraham assumption or is this real?

    That the Arabs of the 7th c. speaks of a 'prophetic' figure regarding them related to Quranic text they had at that time is of course very possible (They had quranic text to built the house on the Temple Mount in 637): but they never saw him, talk to him, eat with him: it is an abstract figure. Like us with Jesus or Moses: who has speak to Jesus recently here? Who? Moses? Who?...


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10570 - December 06, 2021, 02:55 PM

    Thanks Altara,

    The logic is correct.
    I was wondering why a jew would have gone to speak to a learned man (a jew) about the prophet if that prophet was not jew himself. And the doctrina does not say the prophet is a jew.
    According to Jewish traditions prophetood was removed from non jews by the time of balaam.

    What made me suspicious was the strange language of the learned man who had a non jewish language.

    Anyway, is clear.

    The DJ is a cornerstone of the tradition and Antony does not address the religion of the letter writer and its implication.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10571 - December 06, 2021, 04:52 PM

    Ahab Bdaiwi: The Study of Shiism in Islamic Studies, the Qur'anic Mushrikun, and Arabian "Paganism"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRQHLPDPbdk
    Quote
    In this interview, I have the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Ahab Bdaiwi. Dr. Bdaiwi studied at the Universities of London and Exeter, and received his PhD in Arabic and Islamic Intellectual History from the University of Exeter (2014). He spent three years as a lecturer in Islamic and Iranian intellectual history at the University of St Andrews (2013-2016). In January 2016 he was Visiting Scholar of Medieval Studies at the College of William and Mary. Since August 2016 he is Assistant Professor of Medieval Arabic Philosophy and Islamic Intellectual History at Leiden University. He was also a former Cook-Crone Fellow at the University of Cambridge.   

    Today we talk about his journey to Qur'anic studies from the study of mathematics, his work on Shii Studies, and his distinguished research on the Qur'anic Mushrikun.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10572 - December 06, 2021, 05:57 PM

    Michael Pregill - Blurred Boundaries and Novel Normativities
    The Jews of Arabia, the Quranic Milieu, and the “Islamic Judaism” of the Middle Ages

    https://journals.library.columbia.edu/index.php/alusur/article/view/8903/4602
    Quote
    This article discusses critical issues surrounding the Jewish-Muslim encounter, framed as an evaluation of the approach and conclusions of two recent publications by Aaron W. Hughes: Shared Identities: Medieval and Modern Imaginings of Judeo-Islam (2017) and Muslim and Jew (2019). Hughes’s works present a critique of the established historiography on Jewish-Muslim relations and exchanges, examining such subjects as the Jews of late antique Arabia, the Jewish matrix of the Quran and formative Islam, and the Judeo-Islamic synthesis of subsequent centuries. I interrogate Hughes’s use of sources, treatment of previous scholarship, and privileging of the specific lens of the “religionist” in approaching the historical evidence. Both of the works under consideration here exhibit numerous problems of conception and argumentation that undermine their value for broadening current horizons of research or refining prevailing pedagogies. Ultimately, although they provoke numerous important questions and deftly expose the conceptual and ideological underpinnings of older scholarship, the books fail to offer a constructive path forward for specialists or stimulate a meaningful paradigm shift in the field.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10573 - December 06, 2021, 06:05 PM

    New issue of al-ʿUṣūr al-Wusṭā

    https://journals.library.columbia.edu/index.php/alusur/article/view/8915/4613

    Contents: https://journals.library.columbia.edu/index.php/alusur/issue/view/774

    Thread: https://twitter.com/medievalqabq/status/1467573475833487369
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10574 - December 06, 2021, 09:22 PM

    Pregill article seems interesting. Thanks Zeca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10575 - December 06, 2021, 09:42 PM

    Thanks Altara,

    The logic is correct.
    I was wondering why a Jew would have gone to speak to a learned man (a Jew) about the prophet if that prophet was not Jew himself. And the doctrina does not say the prophet is a Jew.

    Abraham goes to the literati to get some 'Jewish' information about what he had heard (a prophet with Arabs). Because as a Jew he knows that a prophetic figure accompanies the coming of the Messiah, announcing him. Again, (for me...) it is rationale, at that time, to talk to the people who knows the Scripture to try to comprehend events that happen.

    Quote
    According to Jewish traditions prophethood was removed from non Jews by the time of Balaam.

    Yes.

    Quote
    What made me suspicious was the strange language of the learned man who had a non Jewish language.


    Good observation.
    Quote
    Anyway, is clear.

    The DJ is a cornerstone of the tradition and Antony does not address the religion of the letter writer and its implication.


    Anthony (and the others)  are not as good as we could think.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10576 - December 10, 2021, 12:11 AM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/CellardEleonore/status/1468182571100119042
    Quote
    1/8. The Ṣanʿāʾ palimpsest is known as the only evidence of a different version of the Qur’an, hidden in its parchment. Despite its current fragmentary condition, we are now sure that it was at first a codex/mushaf, showing similarities with the so-called “Companions’codices”

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10577 - December 10, 2021, 11:52 AM

    6/8. We have been able to restore several sequences of sūras (some are more hypothetical because many leaves are missing within a quire). They show similarities or convergences with Ibn Masʿūd and Ubayy’s codices, but also sequences in line with the ʿUthmanic text (like Q.10>11).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10578 - December 11, 2021, 10:08 PM

    Guillaume Dye - A Response to Stephen L. Young, “Let’s Take the Text Seriously”: the Protectionist Doxa in Mainstream New Testament Studies

    https://www.academia.edu/63838190/A_Response_to_Stephen_L_Young_Let_s_Take_the_Text_Seriously_the_Protectionist_Doxa_in_Mainstream_New_Testament_Studies

    Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1469683126779715587
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10579 - December 11, 2021, 10:14 PM

    6/8. We have been able to restore several sequences of sūras (some are more hypothetical because many leaves are missing within a quire). They show similarities or convergences with Ibn Masʿūd and Ubayy’s codices, but also sequences in line with the ʿUthmanic text (like Q.10>11).


    before Eléonore  talks/twits about those Sanaa palimpsest .   she should do research on  those two guys   Ibn Masʿūd and Ubayy’s ., who they were and where they come from......
    Quote
    In 2015, she submitted her dissertation intitled “The written transmission of the Qur’ān. Study of a corpus of manuscripts from the 2nd H./8th CE” (INALCO/EPHE). Until 2018, she carried on her research at the Collège de France, as research assistant and post-doctoral researcher.  Involved first in the French-German Coranica project, then in the Paleocoran project, she published Codex Amrensis 1, the first volume of the collection of facsimile and diplomatic editions of the earliest Qur’ans (Brill, 2018).

      and where she got those two names...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10580 - December 11, 2021, 10:17 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMeXNm88Z-g
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10581 - December 11, 2021, 10:27 PM


     Cheesy Cheesy   where did you get that from dear zecca??   well that is a new kid in the town.,   So on the top of that tube let the watchers watch this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhND4Ylf3CY

    Quote


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10582 - December 11, 2021, 10:38 PM

    Cheesy Cheesy   where did you get that from dear zecca??   


    From here: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1469366018824937472
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10583 - December 12, 2021, 03:35 AM


    oh !  from twit..

    Quote
    Sean W. Anthony
    @shahanSean
    ·
    11h
    It's amazing that you would think that this needs to be screen-capped because it would embarrass me. Yes, I study your religion like I study every other religion. Yes, I study the Qur'an like I study every other piece of literature. That's not mocking. That's humanistic inquiry.

    https://twitter.com/abaanmiodrag2/status/1469703092425957385

    shahanSean seems to be throwing some  tantrums at that link...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10584 - December 13, 2021, 10:36 AM

    Guillaume Dye (2021)
    Concepts and Methods in the Study of the Qur’ān
    (This paper makes available for an English audience some ideas developed with additional arguments in two papers published
    in French)
    https://www.academia.edu/63838191/Concepts_and_Methods_in_the_Study_of_the_Qur_%C4%81n

    Abstract: This paper addresses methodological issues in Qur’anic studies. At first, it intends to
    explain, through historiographical analysis, why methods proved fruitful in biblical and New
    Testament studies, such as form criticism and redaction criticism, have been disregarded in Qur’anic
    studies; secondly, it vindicates the application of such methods to the Qur’anic corpus; thirdly, it
    tries to exemplify the relevance of redaction criticism through examples. Two main issues are then
    discussed: the best way to account for the “synoptic problem” (the presence, in the Qur’¯an, of
    variant parallel narratives), through an examination of some aspects of the Adam-Ibl¯ıs narratives
    (more precisely the composition of Q 2:30–38 and the nature of the relations between Q 38:71–85
    and Q 15:26–43); and the beginning of Q 55. Two main conclusions are reached: first, the later
    versions of a parallel story are, in the examples discussed here, rewritings of earlier stories (namely,
    re-compositions based on a written version); second, sura 55 features the intervention of different
    authors, with two different profiles.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10585 - December 13, 2021, 10:53 AM

    As Dye is a great believer, he is obliged to state that some parts (according to him) of the Quran was written down where there was Christians, as he is persuaded that (some parts) of the text are   (according to him) addressed to them. Mecca/Medina are set aside since there is no historical attestations of their presence there. For him they were written down in Palestine after the conquest.
    The premise of the believing of the existence of Muhammad in Mecca/Kaba is implacable: as there is no Christians there, we are forced to move the writing of the text to a place where there are Christians: Dye is then obliged to find a place and he affirms that it is Palestine. But he has no real grounds about this, only the obligation to find a place where Christians are present.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10586 - December 13, 2021, 02:21 PM

    Quote
    Guillaume Dye (2021)
    Concepts and Methods in the Study of the Qur’ān
    (This paper makes available for an English audience some ideas developed with additional arguments in two papers published
    in French)
    https://www.academia.edu/63838191/Concepts_and_Methods_in_the_Study_of_the_Qur_%C4%81n
    .........................................

    As Dye is a great believer, he is obliged to state that some parts (according to him)....................


    well Altara you use that word so often in many occasions almost to all so-called scholars of early Islam., that word "GREAT BELIEVER" loosing its value., 

    anyway in that pub   Concepts and Methods in the Study of the Qur’¯an.pdf  he starts the publication  with these assumptions which have no valid proof
    Quote
    ............The genesis of the Islamic canon is entirely different [from the Bible and the
    New Testament]; one might even say that it was the product of the opposite development.
     It is not the work of several authors but of only one man, and was therefore accomplished in the span of a lifetime. The form of the Koran as we now have it was essentially complete two to three years after the death of Muhammad. The ‘Uthmanic redaction is only a copy of the collection of ¯Hafsa and was completed under Abu Bakr or in the reign of ‘Umar at the latest.......


    once you start with those assumption you are bound to run in circles  with earlier works of 9th century stories of Islam .. and that indeed is the problem for many to overcome..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10587 - December 14, 2021, 04:46 PM

    Quote from: yeezevee
    ............The genesis of the Islamic canon is entirely different [from the Bible and the
    New Testament]; one might even say that it was the product of the opposite development.
     It is not the work of several authors but of only one man, and was therefore accomplished in the span of a lifetime. The form of the Koran as we now have it was essentially complete two to three years after the death of Muhammad. The ‘Uthmanic redaction is only a copy of the collection of ¯Hafsa and was completed under Abu Bakr or in the reign of ‘Umar at the latest.......


    Yeez - that's a quote from Nöldeke. Dye is criticising the assumptions made not agreeing with them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10588 - December 14, 2021, 05:18 PM

    As Dye is a great believer, he is obliged to state that some parts (according to him) of the Quran was written down where there was Christians, as he is persuaded that (some parts) of the text are   (according to him) addressed to them. Mecca/Medina are set aside since there is no historical attestations of their presence there. For him they were written down in Palestine after the conquest.
    The premise of the believing of the existence of Muhammad in Mecca/Kaba is implacable: as there is no Christians there, we are forced to move the writing of the text to a place where there are Christians: Dye is then obliged to find a place and he affirms that it is Palestine. But he has no real grounds about this, only the obligation to find a place where Christians are present.


    Altara, how are you

    The Quranic authors and the aduience had to have a deep knowledge of christian stories in order to compose the text, but most important to understand it properly.
    So it is right that the text was written for chrisitanized arabs.
    About the rest I see your point.
    The quranic texts could be composed anywhere, if the sources to compose it are either available in the menory of the author(s) or if the author(s) could access material to get their inspiration.
    What I wonder is why we have christianized arabs from north (edessa) to south (persian Gulf), and Dye ignores them pointing to Palestine. Surah Miriam? Cathisma?
    All these places may have been the final intended audience of the text.
    As you pointed out it does not look like to be a coincidence that the texts appear in the hands of arabs arriving from iraq to Palestine


    I was recently working on one of your points

    When we argue that the quran has nothing to do with Mekka/Medina/zam zam/companions and that we must move out from west arabia, then we are in areas with higher scribal presence. Therefore a man called Muhammad, preaching Allah for 22 years would not have excaped the writings of Jews or Christians or others.
    I was wondering
    - How can we demonstrate that such an individual would not have escaped this?
    - And assuming the story of Islamic tradition is false, we may wonder if the quran could originate by the hand of a simple preacher who did not operate for 22 years and did not wage any war nor any other peculiar action, but in a way more limited way. How do we know that a more simple situation could not actually escape from being put down into paper/rock or else

    It can be easily demonstrated that Ibn Ishaq work is agiography, but its core, a man preaching for a more limited time and without the exaggerated political and military role as depicted by Islamic sources may have existed.
    Your point is clear that any of the supposed early witnesses of muhammad is no more than arabs reading the quran who sopke of muhammad to others who thought that he was real.
    Indeed the line here in thin (for me)

    I hope my question is clear. I am trying to understand what was the capacity of writers/scribes etc.. of 550 to 650 to catch news of what was happening and put them on paper or onto any other document. (Paper I mean write them down...)

    Of course if we can demonstrate that most of these preachers, no matter how relevant they were, more or less they were reported in chronicles, then we can argue that someone who composed the quran and preached it must have been recorded somewhere, and if he was not, then he did not exist


    Thanks
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10589 - December 14, 2021, 06:35 PM

    Thread from Philip Wood: https://twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1470753888135491587
    Quote
    Hello, this is a series by @DrPhilipWood on Christian communities in the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates. I'll be focussing in particular on the Jacobite (Severan Miaphysite) communities of the region around Edessa and Amida, mod. Urfa and Diyarbekir in eastern Turkey.

    To do this, I'm going to use sources in Syriac, a form of Aramaic that functioned as a prestigious written language among Christians. Syriac often gives an interesting sub elite perspective on Islamicate history, and it is a useful complement to the narrative of  Arabic sources.

    Much of the Middle East had a Christian majority in the early centuries after the Muslim conquest. At least initially, there was little deliberate attempt to convert non-Muslims and Islam was predominantly a religion for Arabs.

    Quote
    Normally we think about the creation of religious buildings in terms of Muslim:Christian competition, sometimes to make an implicit point about tolerance or lack of it.

    But another way to think about church building as a kind of aristocratic conspicuous consumption. I would also read building as a sign of the changing relationship of state, aristocracy and peasantry. The C.7 was not just a period of laissez-faire religion, but also low taxation.

    Aristocrats were more free to extract resources from peasantries than they had been in the past, but the state took less from aristocrats in tax. Some of this money they spent on things without an arch. record (hunting dogs, textiles), but some they spent on churches.

    So if the C.7 was a golden age for anyone, it was for a post-Roman or post-sas. aristocracy, that now had light oversight from the state. One question I'll address this week is how the power of this aristocracy vanished and how clergy claimed leadership of Christian communities.

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