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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10440 - October 17, 2021, 08:45 PM

    Quote
    Shouldn t we make a difference btw "the litterati" of the 630's who were able to understand the texts sufficiently to head for Jerusalem and build the house, and the late 7th C/early 8th C exegetes who lost all contact with the meaning of the texts?



    Two gaps:
     1/the 'literati' who had (some) texts in the 7th c. heading to Jerusalem and build the house had no contacts with the 'literati' who have written down the Quranic texts.
    2/ The 8th and 9th c ones have build a narrative context (Mecca/Medina/Kaba) whereas the 7th c. ones had not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10441 - October 18, 2021, 05:10 AM

    Quote
    Two gaps:
     1/the 'literati' who had (some) texts in the 7th c. heading to Jerusalem and build the house had no contacts with the 'literati' who have written down the Quranic texts.
    2/ The 8th and 9th c ones have build a narrative context (Mecca/Medina/Kaba) whereas the 7th c. ones had not.


    1/ Why do you think there was no contact btw authors and 'literati'? and no complete text? C14 shows Quran was around most probably around 625 (quasi complete?). Of course that doesnt mean the whole thing was in the mind of the actors.
    2/ agree, that's obvious.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10442 - October 18, 2021, 02:30 PM

    1/ Because (for me...) the Quranic texts were addressed to specific people. Those ones have nothing to see with the literati who were include in the armies, expeditions, heading to Jerusalem and build the house.
    2/ C14 is not reliable.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10443 - October 18, 2021, 04:20 PM

    Altara,

    Quote
    2/ C14 is not reliable.


    What is the earliest time frame of the manuscript copying (producing the material proof we have of an organised scribal workshop producing quranic texts at a considerable scale) admissable to you to make your scenario work? 650? 660? 680?

    I think the work of Marx and Eve Youssef-Grob show that the carbondating is reliable. I understand discussion about a decade or so, so that's why I would like to have a view on the constraints of your model.

    You convinced me by your argumentation that 'the builders of the house'in Jerusalem in the late 630's used the texts. That is completely compatible with a pre 630 existence of the standard Quran. Why deviate from this?What element makes you resist this logical scenario?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10444 - October 19, 2021, 01:16 PM

    Altara,

    I am trying to follow the arab tribes movements.

    Draft_text_Arabia_and_the_Great_Powers%20(1).pdf

    like in most publications about the eastern arabs, we find more or less the same sequence of Nasrids rulers in the east.
    They grow in power progressively (al-munhdir in first half of 6th century) and they finally are removed from power by Kursaw II in 602, al Numan.
    This will trigger the battle of Badr.

    all publications usually stop here and the narrative arrives of the "muslim conquest".

    following your lines we see arab leaders in the east building in 637 on the temple mount, then some of them are in egypt in 643.
    they come from the east with quranic texts

    in the pre-dhu qar narrative, all available through rock inscriptions (robin) and syriac and roman literature (and some abbaside times chronicle) we have indication of large christian groups (like the Ibadi in al hira) and the arab Nasrids probably pagans, but surrounded by chrisitians
    No apparent indications of a sort of "heresy"

    between 602 to 637 there is a hole

    this holes is probably occupied by the arab warlords who, in the power vacuum of the Nasrids, they take over control of arabs in the east, defeat the persians at dhu qur and start to conquer persia and go west to go up to the rich area of Damascus, Antioch (al munhdir already plundered north to modern turkey) and they may head to Costantinople (they arrive here later) to get the money they know the byzantines have (they used to give money to Nasrids too)

    https://www.academia.edu/44982615/The_Pre_Islamic_Battle_of_Dhu_Qa_r_From_History_to_Collective_Memory
    now, checking dhu qar we have the Banu Shayban but they belong to a large group, the Banu Bakr

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Bakr

    the Banu Shayban will go north east and some of them will become the khariites (involved in the power struggle we see in the 7th century)

    One group is that remaining in iraq, from where al zubahir will come
    one group goes west (we meet Muhaiwija in the byzantine chronicles)

    they seem to come from the persian gulf north west coast
    we had christians too there and syriac settlements

    it is difficult (for me) to bridge the gap between the fall of al numab III, the leaders of Dhu Qar and their steps, once we remove the "muslim conquest"
    Any suggestion?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10445 - October 19, 2021, 03:22 PM

    Altara,

    A connection with the thin thread of the quranic texts.
    As you (and others) have demonstrated that the above mentioned groups, with quranic texts, spreading in communities and waging wars west, north and maybe east, could not understand the quranic language, but only the arabic, we may argue that
    - the authors and first supposed audience were christianized arabs able to understand the arabized syriac words and expressions. they very fully immersed in that context
    - those who followed came from a context, where a similar arabic was used, but without the knowledge of syriac words and expressions. These arabs come from outside the area of syriac preachers and "happened" to come across a text which was not designed for them

    while reading these shifts in tribes, it looks like the quranic texts were on the desk of an arab chief, who commissioned them to his own use for his arab fellows, then he was killed and those who entered his office found the texts on the desk
    like al numan was preparing it, was killed by the persians, and those who took his place in the vacuum, got the text and started to read it

    these are conjectures, but just trying to understand how these groups with the quranic texts could more or less decipher the arabic parts, but not the others, or have such a poor knolwdge of the Biblical stories that for example they did not understand the passage of 11 69/72 presented by reynolds about sarah lough.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10446 - October 19, 2021, 04:51 PM

    Altara,

    What is the earliest time frame of the manuscript copying (producing the material proof we have of an organised scribal workshop producing quranic texts at a considerable scale) admissable to you to make your scenario work? 650? 660? 680?

    I think the work of Marx and Eve Youssef-Grob show that the carbondating is reliable. I understand discussion about a decade or so, so that's why I would like to have a view on the constraints of your model.

    You convinced me by your argumentation that 'the builders of the house'in Jerusalem in the late 630's used the texts. That is completely compatible with a pre 630 existence of the standard Quran. Why deviate from this? What element makes you resist this logical scenario?

    mundi dear mundi .. there is a problem in that statement..  In Eve  Youssef  publication  she was NOT  talking about the accuracy and reliability of Quran manuscripts carbon dating .,  but she was explaining the problem of carbon14 dating methodologies and their possible error bars that comes in the experiments of C14 /C12 ratio measurements and calibration techniques of that method., .

      But I am saying that from what she wrote in  this 2019  Monograph   which was edited by Andreas Kaplony, Michael Marx.,

    I wonder.,  are you talking about that publication or some other work from Eva....??
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10447 - October 19, 2021, 05:01 PM

    Spaghetti,

    I don't think it is necessary for a whole group to understand texts completely to consider them as holy or very special.
    The Quran constitutes of very sophisticated texts written by author(s) well versed in Biblical/Jewish texts and also Christian LA texts. Expecting an audience to understanf the detail is not realistic.
    On top of that, books were only available in special places. We can assume that max, snippets of the texts were available in the early times.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10448 - October 19, 2021, 05:05 PM

    Yeez,

    The reference you posted is the one I was refering to. The comparison with the papyri is relevant. There is no need to doubt the carbondating.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10449 - October 19, 2021, 05:11 PM

     Hmm there seems to a be TASTY nugget in Spaghettibologn post    Cheesy Cheesy ., let me read that in VACCUM  
    Altara,

    A connection with the thin thread of the quranic texts.


    As you (and others) have demonstrated that the above mentioned groups, with quranic texts, spreading in communities and waging wars west, north and maybe east, could not understand the quranic language, but only the arabic, we may argue that

    1). - the authors and first supposed audience were christianized arabs able to understand the arabized syriac words and expressions. they very fully immersed in that context

    2)- those who followed came from a context, where a similar arabic was used, but without the knowledge of syriac words and expressions. These arabs come from outside the area of syriac preachers and "happened" to come across a text which was not designed for them

    while reading these shifts in tribes, it looks like the quranic texts were on the desk of an arab chief, who commissioned them to his own use for his arab fellows, then he was killed and those who entered his office found the texts on the desk

    like al numan was preparing it, was killed by the persians, and those who took his place in the vacuum, got the text and started to read it


    these are conjectures, but just trying to understand how these groups with the quranic texts could more or less decipher the arabic parts, but not the others, or have such a poor knolwdge of the Biblical stories that for example they did not understand the passage of 11 69/72 presented by reynolds about sarah lough.


    ARE THEY REALLY  CONJECTURES?? who knows Big Al knows the best ,, I guess there appears to be a problem in understanding HOW  SO_CALLED ARABS OF THAT IME EXPANDED ISLAM   using those so-called Quranic texts .

    I too think there is a problem there.,  do you agree with that dear Spaghettibologn  ??  The question lies  with  in the context of expansion of Islam in the first 100 years of Islam that is between the years 632-732,,

    but Altara does NOT agree with this timeline of early Islam

    Quote
    Quote
    545: Birth of Abdullah, the Holy Prophet's father.
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. ..y
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.


    Quote
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.   Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
    633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
    634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
    635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
    636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
    637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
    638: Conquest of Jazirah.
    639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
    640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
    641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
    642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
    643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
    644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    645: Campaigns in Fats.
    646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
    647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
    648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
    651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
    652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
    657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
    658: Battle of Nahrawan.
    659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
    660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
    662: Khawarij revolts.
    666: Raid of Sicily.
    670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
    672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
    674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
    677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
    680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
    682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa.
    683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
    684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat.
    685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
    686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
    687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
    691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
    692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
    695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.
    700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa.
    702: Ashath's rebellion in Iraq, battle of Deir ul Jamira.
    705: Death of Abdul Malik. Accession of Walid I as Caliph.
    711: Conquest of Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
    712: The Muslims advance in Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
    713: Conquest of Multan.
    715: Death of Walid I. Accession of Sulaiman.
    716: Invasion of Constantinople.
    717: Death of Sulaiman. Accession of Umar b Abdul Aziz.
    720: Death of Umar b Abdul Aziz. Accession of Yazid II.
    724: Death of Yazid II. Accession of Hisham.
    725: The Muslims occupy Nimes in France.
    732: The battle of Tours in France.



    So Prophet of Islam  Birth day was yesterday  Prophet is DEAD by the year 632 .  BEAUTIFUL PICTURES AT THE LINK and they all from yesterday.,   And  and Altara   has his own ways of explaining it..  But I do agree with Altara that PROPHET OF ISLAM STORY THAT BEGAN IN THE YEAR 571 AND ENDED IN THE YEAR 632 is very questionable

    but please CLICK THE LINK AND WATCH THE YESTERDAY CELEBRATION  PICTURES IN TOWNS


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10450 - October 19, 2021, 05:14 PM

    Yeez,

    The reference you posted is the one I was refering to. The comparison with the papyri is relevant. There is no need to doubt the carbondating.

    well we will read that pub again I have it .  but...

    So you consider ALL OF QURAN.,  ALL 114 chapters and 6300 verses .. the book is completed by the  year 632?? 650?? 680?? 720??

    and what number do you gave for that year dear mundi...?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10451 - October 19, 2021, 05:19 PM

    Yeez,

    I think most of the book is complete and standardised by 630, probably earlier (bc doubtful first exemplar is extant). I deduce that from carbondating.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10452 - October 19, 2021, 05:24 PM

    Yeez,

    I think most of the book is complete and standardised by 630, probably earlier (bc doubtful first exemplar is extant). I deduce that from carbondating.

     No..no..nooooooo

    you are NOT addressing the question properly ., you are evading it dear mundi  Cheesy Cheesy

    now let me rephrase that Q

    THERE ARE 6300  verses in Quran ., when you say most of them ...  would you consider

    6200  verses were published by 630??.. or  5200??  or  tell me what % of 6300 verses were published by the year  630??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10453 - October 19, 2021, 05:34 PM

    Yeez,

    For me its not important if 80% was complete in 630 or 99% or 100%.

    The Quran was written before 630, in a standardised language. That is a historical fact that has to be acommodated in any presented scenario.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10454 - October 19, 2021, 05:49 PM

    Yeez,

    For me its not important if 80% was complete in 630 or 99% or 100%.

    Quote
    The Quran was written before 630, in a standardised language. That is a historical fact that has to be acommodated in any presented scenario.

     

    Oh... THAT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTAT FOR ME AND FOR ISLAM AS FAITH dear mundi., if i take 20% verses out of present Quran ., that is.,    if  I take away one thousand two hundred and sixty verses out of the book ., then what is left in it??  what is left in it is VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH ISLAM .,  it is  just  OT STORIES AND A BIT OF CHRISTIANITY

    it means you are saying 1260 verses were added in to the book at a later times.... so it is indeed extremely important subject .,    think about that .,  if  you said that some 300 years ago and proved it to rest of humanity .,  you would have saved MILLIONS OF LIVES AND TRILLION BILLION ZILLION DOLLARS

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10455 - October 19, 2021, 06:32 PM

    Yes Yeez,
    I understand the completeness is important to some people. In any case if the more or less complete Quran is from 620's, that doesnt fit the traditional narative, does it? And that is provable. (by executing sufficientC14)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10456 - October 19, 2021, 06:58 PM

    Dear Mundi,
    I understand your point.
    My observation is that, as you correctly mentioned, the quranic texts are a highly sofisticated script, with theological points, using  rhyme and rethoric, reworking biblical and extra biblical stories, bending the escatological atmosphere to induce an equally educated audience to change their prospective on their cheistian faith, and embrace a new (but not too new) arabic text.
    Such a text is not targeting the common folk, who is neither politically, nor economically relevant, but a strict audience which may be worth the offort to pay to compose these 114 surah.
    The audience was selected, limited, educated, worth the investment.

    Now, i look at the arab groups who have them in 637 and later.
    They have educated people too, who read and understand the arabic, who have some level of education by contact with chrisrian and jews.
    But the difference is that while the audience of the quranic text had knowledge of religious language of the quran, those who follow have a different degree.
    Syrians are still all over the place, christianized arabs with syriac education, do not disappear in few years, they are still there.
    So there was plenty of people who may have read and understood the quranic texts.
    But that elite who have them, don't. The understand only what their knowledge allows them.

    These people are a tiny minority. Maybe 0,01% of the pooulation.
    Sophronius, in jerusalem, an authority, hears nothing, meets nobody, he just sees what they do.

    In my mental exercise, i was thinking to a rich man, like an arab leader, creafting the texts to introduce them to his private court. He may not even done much yet.

    Then his work is stopped, killed like al numan was.

    Those who take over the power, his position, etc.. may have heard that he had some holy texts, and when they find them, they miss the source, the background and the knowledge to ubderstand them fully.


    Yeezevee,

    Mines are conjectures.
    I am reading academic authors and books about these arab groups, tribes, leaders etc.. and what they do and i am trying to see if any shift in behaviour, phraseology, religiosity, my show signs of some sort.
    Additionally reading all these texts and all of them say that after 602 the Muslims arrive and conquer, polluting all the arguments is stressing.
    Separating islamized past from real facts is frustrating.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10457 - October 19, 2021, 07:18 PM

    Spaghetti,

    Quote
    Syrians are still all over the place, christianized arabs with syriac education, do not disappear in few years, they are still there.
    So there was plenty of people who may have read and understood the quranic texts.


    I doubt that the Quran at some time was easily understood by more people than the inner circle of the author(s). You need an audience versed in both Christian and Jewish texts... Very rare imo.

    We have the first decades of Islamic reign no signs of a living Quran. But we do have very many extant manuscripts. Quran seems to have been copied but not used or read outside of the scribal workshop.

    Maybe it not only seems to us like that, maybe that is what happened.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10458 - October 19, 2021, 09:35 PM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1450418538418745355
    Quote
    The name of God in the Quran is Aḷḷāh, that much is clear. We also know that the Quran explicitly equates its God with the God the Christians and Jews follow. Today Arabic Christian and Jews alike will indeed call their God that. But where does this name come from?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10459 - October 20, 2021, 02:10 AM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1450418538418745355

    The name of God in the Quran is Aḷḷāh, that much is clear. We also know that the Quran explicitly equates its God with the God the Christians and Jews follow. Today Arabic Christian and Jews alike will indeed call their God that. But where does this name come from?

    ...

    Quote
    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1450418568353419268

    Tradition tells us that the Prophet Muhammad's own father was called ʿAbd Aḷḷāh 'servant of Aḷḷāh', which certainly suggests (if historical) that the name was around. And indeed exactly that name along with other Aḷḷāhphoric names are found given to Nabataean Arabs.

    well before knowing about the word "Allah" or "Al-Illah"  and their origins.,  ..   Van Putten, should find out  ..When and where this word Abd Aḷḷāh  was used for the father of traditional Islamic Prophet "Muhammad"



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10460 - October 20, 2021, 10:00 AM

    Altara,

    What is the earliest time frame of the manuscript copying (producing the material proof we have of an organized scribal workshop producing quranic texts at a considerable scale) admissible to you to make your scenario work? 650? 660? 680?


    My scenario is that Quranic texts could have been written down from 550 until 650. The core being from 550 to before the conquest. I consider that the people who built on the Temple Mount (637) had (some) Quranic texts. That is why they build.
    Now the how to, etc I have no idea and I think it'll be (very) difficult to have a clear view as C14 give different results. For this topic one would have need very precise timeframe: we cannot have it with C14: that why I say that C14 is not reliable.

    Quote
    I think the work of Marx and Eve Youssef-Grob show that the carbon dating is reliable. I understand discussion about a decade or so, so that's why I would like to have a view on the constraints of your model.

    You have it.

    Quote
    You convinced me by your argumentation that 'the builders of the house'in Jerusalem in the late 630's used the texts. That is completely compatible with a pre 630 existence of the standard Quran. Why deviate from this? What element makes you resist this logical scenario?


    Well I have the impression that I always said this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10461 - October 20, 2021, 01:23 PM

    Altara,

    I am trying to follow the arab tribes movements.


    With your brain, not with the 9th c. narrators.

    Quote
    Draft_text_Arabia_and_the_Great_Powers%20(1).pdf

    like in most publications about the eastern arabs, we find more or less the same sequence of Nasrids rulers in the east.
    They grow in power progressively (al-munhdir in first half of 6th century) and they finally are removed from power by Kursaw II in 602, al Numan.
    This will trigger the battle of Badr. all publications usually stop here and the narrative arrives of the "muslim conquest".


    Dhu Qar. Badr did not exist.



    Quote
    following your lines we see arab leaders in the east building in 637 on the temple mount, then some of them are in egypt in 643. they come from the east with quranic texts


    That's correct. All of this is grounded by sources and logical explanations of why those events happen.

    Quote
    in the pre-dhu qar narrative, all available through rock inscriptions (robin) and syriac and roman literature (and some abbaside times chronicle) we have indication of large christian groups (like the Ibadi in al hira) and the arab Nasrids probably pagans, but surrounded by chrisitians No apparent indications of a sort of "heresy"


    I consider that the Quranic texts are not coming from an ''heresy''. Read (carefully) S.H. Griffith articles in academia and Dye article about judaeo-christianity :
    https://www.academia.edu/38143375/Jewish_Christianity_the_Qur_%C4%81n_and_Early_Islam_Some_Methodological_Caveats

    Quote
    between 602 to 637 there is a hole this holes is probably occupied by the Arab warlords who, in the power vacuum of the Nasrids, they take over control of Arabs in the east, defeat the Persians at dhu qur and start to conquer Persia and go west to go up to the rich area of Damascus, Antioch (al munhdir already plundered north to modern turkey) and they may head to Constantinople (they arrive here later) to get the money they know the byzantines have (they used to give money to Nasrids too)


    Yes, it is mainly my point.

    https://www.academia.edu/44982615/The_Pre_Islamic_Battle_of_Dhu_Qa_r_From_History_to_Collective_Memory
    Quote
    now, checking dhu qar we have the Banu Shayban but they belong to a large group, the Banu Bakr
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Bakr
    the Banu Shayban will go north east and some of them will become the Kharijites (involved in the power struggle we see in the 7th century)
    One group is that remaining in Iraq, from where al zubahir will come one group goes west (we meet Muhaiwija in the byzantine chronicles) they seem to come from the Persian gulf north west coast we had Christians too there and Syriac settlements it is difficult (for me) to bridge the gap between the fall of al Numan  III, the leaders of Dhu Qar and their steps, once we remove the "Muslim conquest"
    Any suggestion?


    The more simple is the more probable.
    602-3 Commencement of the Persian-Roman war : Persian Arabs revolt as Numan III est executed by Khrosro II (sourced in the Chronical of Khuzizstan)
    602+ : Dhu Qar Battle which will be used to tell the story of the 'Badr Battle" which have never existed.
    602-628: war between Persians Arabs vs the Persians. Persian defeat vs the Romans  and execution of Khrusro II
    628 ... Taking over of Persia and the West by Persian Arabs.
    685 : Arabs have power.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10462 - October 20, 2021, 08:05 PM

    Thanks altara

    I will rearead the articles.

    Badr was my mistake...

    My reflection about heresy is that if the quran targeted chrisrianized arabs, i was wondering what effects, detectable in the available sources, we may find among arabs.

    It targeted christianized arabs with sufficient background to understand its language and apologetic and theology.

    Then we see it appear in the west in 636 in the hands of peoole who understand its arabic, but not the rest.

    So there must have been a passage where these arabs came across it but had no contact with the authors.

    That is why i am following the tribes movements.

    It was my idea that an arab group coming from an area with less contact with syriac literature overlapped with christianized arabs with the proper background.

    These grouos, these leaders are the only one with enough education to understand that the wuranic texts are different.

    And also i was thinking about the game of religions played at al hira court where the kings shift belief depending on their political opportunities and that may leas ro think that in such an environment crafting a text was not that issue.
    Money was there, scriba centers are there.
    Christianized arabs exposed to eschatological discourses.

    Why not take asdvantage and craft my own text
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10463 - October 20, 2021, 08:50 PM

    Dear Mundi,
    I understand your point.
    My observation is that, as you correctly mentioned, the quranic texts are a highly sophisticated script, with theological points, using  rhyme and rhetoric, reworking biblical and extra biblical stories, bending the eschatological atmosphere to induce an equally educated audience to change their prospective on their Christian faith,


    Yes.

    Quote
    Such a text is not targeting the common folk, who is neither politically, nor economically relevant, but a strict audience which may be worth the effort to pay to compose these 114 surah. The audience was selected, limited, educated, worth the investment.


    Sufficiently educated, but not too much as the 'tricks' of the Quran are (sometimes) very big.

    Quote
    Now, i look at the Arab groups who have them in 637 and later.
    They have educated people too, who read and understand the Arabic, who have some level of education by contact with Christian and Jews.


    Yes, but (for me...) they were not the 'first' target of the Quranic texts.

    Quote
    But the difference is that while the audience of the quranic text had knowledge of religious language of the Quran, those who follow have a different degree.


    Yes. they had less knowledge. They were without doubt impressed and applied what the texts told us to do : built on the Temple Mount.


    Quote
    Sophronius, in Jerusalem, an authority, hears nothing, meets nobody, he just sees what they do.


    Sophronius has seen native Arabs who starts to scm because they were not payed any more by Constantinople, not those of 637.




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10464 - October 21, 2021, 10:56 AM

    Thanks altara

    I will reread the articles.


    Yes.

    Quote
    My reflection about heresy is that if the Quran targeted Christianized Arabs, i was wondering what effects, detectable in the available sources, we may find among Arabs.


    To my knowledge there is nothing detectable in the sources about 'Arabs'/Saracen, etc.

    Quote
    It targeted Christianized Arabs with sufficient background to understand its language and apologetic and theology.


    Sufficient background but not too much: targeted Christianized Arabs have to swallow the theological (big) tricks of the Quranic texts to be convinced. I remind here that I consider that (for me...) the first targeted Iraqi Christianized Arabs are not those of 637. Those one content themselves to apply what they read of texts they had: I think that they had not all the Quranic text in 637 at hand. But the passage to Jerusalem and what they do there, is coming from Quranic text ( Q, 2,124-141) as Jerusalem is not at all a strategic military point.

    Quote
    Then we see it appear in the west in 636 in the hands of people who understand its Arabic, but not the rest.

    Yes they are not the first target of the texts.

    Quote
    So there must have been a passage where these Arabs came across it but had no contact with the authors.


    I consider that the first Arab target and the 637 Arabs had no contacts with the (real) authors: there is no need of contact: When you see an ad on the internet, you need a contact with those who have written down it?  Nope. You see the ad and you buy the product.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10465 - October 21, 2021, 02:43 PM

    I wouldn't overestimate the need to understand the Quranic text to get converted.

    Did Ambrosius convert the Freese (North Holland savages) by them understanding the Latin bible texts (translated or not)? Of course not.

    Quote
    Sophronius has seen native Arabs who starts to scm because they were not payed any more by Constantinople, not those of 637.


    That would be an insentive to convert.

    When does the average person convert?
    1/ The king converts and he tells his subject to follow or else...
    2/ There is an advantage in lifestyle (eg polygamy, concubines)
    3/ Tax advantages

    The list can get very long full of wordly reasons to convert. I doubt that eg the hearing of Surah 2 is in it...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10466 - October 21, 2021, 07:39 PM

    Holly molly dolly allah ..................... Hey Allah help me out to understand this and to understand my Past........

    mundi are you trying to hurt me??

    hurt people who are born in to Islam for no fault there?

    hurt people who converted in to Islam for the love their life Huh?

    That is OK.. not a big deal   and I did not know.,    you knew HOW WRITE A SARCASTIC RESPONSE ..

    Anyways   here to the question you framed.  ". When does the average person convert? "
    I wouldn't overestimate the need to understand the Quranic text to get converted.

    Did Ambrosius convert the Freese (North Holland savages) by them understanding the Latin bible texts (translated or not)? Of course not.

    That  would be an insentive to convert.

    When does the average person convert?

    1/ The king converts and he tells his subject to follow or else...
    2/ There is an advantage in lifestyle (eg polygamy, concubines)
    3/ Tax advantages

    The list can get very long full of wordly reasons to convert. I doubt that eg the hearing of Surah 2 is in it...

     well forget that surah-2 .. but list more of those statements please...  and may be the initial first say  50 years  of Islam.. during this time.. starting from that year .......610 to say the year 661...................
    Quote
    ...................................................................
     
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet. Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.   Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
    633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
    634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
    635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
    636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
    637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
    638: Conquest of Jazirah.
    639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
    640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
    641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
    642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
    643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
    644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    645: Campaigns in Fats.
    646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
    647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
    648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
    651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
    652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
    657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
    658: Battle of Nahrawan.
    659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
    660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.


     May be During the above time  QURANIC TEXTS ARE NOTHING TO DO with  people converting in to Islam .. THOSE QURANIC TEXTS THAT WERE PRESENT... WERE VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH THE CONVERSION BECAUSE THEY WERE SAME AS BIBLE STORIES...

    so your point is invalid  .lol.. what do you say??

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10467 - October 21, 2021, 08:52 PM

    Yeez,

    My point is invalid???

    I think the Quranic texts in particular are not apt for en masse conversions because they are so dense (in LA and still today). Compared to the Bible and the NT, there is no story line.  The text jumps from hot to tot, and you really need to analyse it to understand a bit.

    A religion has a message. That message can be transmitted by different channels. I summed up a few (the incentives). That is true for Christianity, but for sure also for Islam. I am sure you dont want me to sum up the Islamic message and why it is appealing to so many.  Smiley Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10468 - October 21, 2021, 08:56 PM

    Uncovering the truth about Quran preservation with Marijn van Putten
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkMqKB5SM1A
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10469 - October 21, 2021, 09:10 PM

    Muhammad and the Empires of Faith: the making of the Prophet of Islam - Dr. Sean W. Anthony
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu0hGLzw7eo
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