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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10410 - September 19, 2021, 10:26 PM


    Hello Altara ,  did that  Imruʾ al-Qais Junduh bin Hujr al-Kindi write poetry in Arabic language during his life time ? or was he just a  singing vagabond of Arabian desert in some Arabic dialect??  and some one wrote those poems way after his death

    https://blog.nli.org.il/en/abraham_islam/

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10411 - September 27, 2021, 08:20 PM

    Jack Tannous: Syriac, Simple Believers, and the Medieval Middle East
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elxlHknT36g
    Quote
    In this video, I have the pleasure of interviewing Professor Jack Tannous of Princeton University. Professor Tannous is an Associate Professor of History and Hellenic Studies; Chair of the Committee for the Study of Late Antiquity; and Director of the Program in Hellenic Studies at Princeton University. He is a distinguished scholar who studies late antiquity, Syriac studies, Arab Christianity, and much more. In this conversation, we discuss Professor Tannous's new book on simple believers in the medieval Middle East, the importance of Syriac in the study of Islam, and more.

    Prof. Tannous's book can be purchased here: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Medieval-Middle-East-Believers/dp/0691179093

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10412 - September 27, 2021, 10:28 PM

    So I've watched that video through now. For me it's an important interview, particularly from about 42 minutes in. Amongst other things Jack Tannous takes the view that it's likely that Arabic translations of some (but not all) biblical texts existed before the Quran. His reasoning on this sounds similar to mine, though from a much better informed perspective.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10413 - September 28, 2021, 09:20 AM

    Quote
    Jack Tannous takes the view that it's likely that Arabic translations of some (but not all) biblical texts existed before the Quran.


    He's mistaken. He has no other choice saying this to explain the biblical content of the Quran. It is a 'simple' explication which shows that he did not work the topic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10414 - September 28, 2021, 03:21 PM

    Quote
    Jack Tannous: Syriac, Simple Believers, and the Medieval Middle East
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elxlHknT36g

     
    He's mistaken. He has no other choice saying this to explain the biblical content of the Quran. It is a 'simple' explication which shows that he did not work the topic.



    well I have not watched  that dr. Jack Tannous   tube but dear Altara let me write this to you

    ************************************************************************************************************************************************

    "My good friend Altara believes that there was NO written Arabic material ....prose or poetry religious or other wise before the present book/Quranic manuscripts  such as Sana manuscripts  that we have now .,    And he believes that because we have not found any written Arabic material that is older than Quran.,   But here    Altara  is mistaken. Although he does have choice to think other ways of explaining,  Why  Arabic manuscripts that are older than Quran have not been found?   but he thinks that he has  no other choice because he believes Quran is the first Arabic written book/manuscripts to explain everything about Islam and  he is looking for proof of written Arabic scripts that are older than Quran., unfortunately we have to find such Arabic written material. Like many well educated  Muslims he thinks BEFORE QURAN, ARABS WERE NOMADIC  FOOLS WITH NO LITERCY SKILLS NO EDUCAION AND LIVED IN SOME ISOLATED DESERT OF ARABIA.,  After all Quran says this   .. Prophet of Islam was Ummi .. unlettered uneducated fool before Allah put some words in to his brain in the form of Quranic revelation., Altara thinks there were NO ARAB CHRISTIANS AND ARAB JEWS NO EDUCATED ARBAS like those Syrians and Romans  IN & AROUND ARABIAN PENISNULA  and they were not familiar with biblical stories/content

    Well I say., What Altara says is a  It is a 'simple' explication,  which shows that Altara did not work the topic in depth and he is not looking for alternate explanations for the absence written Arabic material that may have present before Quran.

    I think Altara should do  some Gedanken Experiments on this subject..

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/2087688-the-impossible-barber-and-other-bizarre-thought-experiments/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment

    https://www.britannica.com/science/Gedankenexperiment

    I hope those links will help to formulate some thought experiments on that subject .."

    ***************************************************************************************************************************************************

    HOW AOUT THAT dear Altara??


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10415 - September 29, 2021, 07:50 PM

    Jack Tannous:

    Nice how he imagines the not so simple believer in Mecca understanding the complicated Quran in 7th C super educated Mecca and compares that to the simple believers of the Levant that just go through the religious motions without really understanding al the subtleties...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10416 - September 30, 2021, 08:38 AM

    In this new video. Mel and Jay Smith discusses the paintings in early Islam. 

    "Dr Beatrice Leal, a leading expert on Islamic art, notes that while no images can be found in mosques, because those were designated buildings for prayer, they were certainly in existence in the palaces. In fact, she found that this practice continued from the 730s right up through the 840s, completely contradicting what the later SIN (Standard Islamic Narrative) claims.

    As examples, in this episode Mel pointed to a naked bathing scene and a topless female in the castle of Qusayr 'Amra in Jordan (730s), as well as a statue of the naked lower torso of a female in the Al-Mushatta Palace.

    He also showed further paintings and statues in the Qasr al-Hayr al-Gharbi Palace in Syria, the Qasr al-Hallabat in Jordan, and the Khirbat al-Mafjar castle in Jericho (today Israel), proving that images of humans and animals was quite popular all over the middle East in the 8th century, continuing into the 9th century."

    How important are these paintings in describing the early Muslim community?  Do these painting undermine the  credibility of the  later Muslim traditions? Did they in the 9th and 10th century actually know what happened during the life of the Prophet and afterwards, or is it mostly  Abbasid/ clergy dreams  and wishes of what happened?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp6Riw3o_-Y&t=2235s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10417 - September 30, 2021, 01:52 PM

    In this new video. Mel and Jay Smith discusses the paintings in early Islam. 

    "Dr Beatrice Leal, a leading expert on Islamic art, notes that while no images can be found in mosques, because those were designated buildings for prayer, they were certainly in existence in the palaces. In fact, she found that this practice continued from the 730s right up through the 840s, completely contradicting what the later SIN (Standard Islamic Narrative) claims.

    As examples, in this episode Mel pointed to a naked bathing scene and a topless female in the castle of Qusayr 'Amra in Jordan (730s), as well as a statue of the naked lower torso of a female in the Al-Mushatta Palace.

    He also showed further paintings and statues in the Qasr al-Hayr al-Gharbi Palace in Syria, the Qasr al-Hallabat in Jordan, and the Khirbat al-Mafjar castle in Jericho (today Israel), proving that images of humans and animals was quite popular all over the middle East in the 8th century, continuing into the 9th century."

    How important are these paintings in describing the early Muslim community?  Do these painting undermine the  credibility of the  later Muslim traditions? Did they in the 9th and 10th century actually know what happened during the life of the Prophet and afterwards, or is it mostly  Abbasid/ clergy dreams  and wishes of what happened?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp6Riw3o_-Y&t=2235s


    well i will read that post of yours later but that is great video  discussion on Art/paintings  and early Islam  dear Asbjoern1958   and that SIN (STANDARD ISLAMIC NARRATIVE) of how it is propagated in early Islam as well as in medival times or even today  is indeed a very interesting subject

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10418 - September 30, 2021, 01:59 PM

    Jack Tannous:

    Nice how he imagines the not so simple believer in Mecca understanding the complicated Quran in 7th C super educated Meccans and compares that to the simple believers of the Levant that just go through the religious motions without really understanding al the subtleties...

     Cheesy Cheesy  that is good one dear mundi.,    that is  Really  what he does in that you tube??.. I still have to watch that tube but I just changed your  "super duper educated Mecca" to  Meccans....   .

    I think  it is very certain that Altara has right Hypothesis   but he is taking time ..... damn time ..... off course he swimming against Islamic currents  as well against the currents that comes out of fools working in western universities  on early Islam/ origin of Quran/Islam 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10419 - October 03, 2021, 09:26 PM

    Nicolai Sinai - Qur’anic Semantics and the Nascency of an Islamic Lexicon
    https://vimeo.com/513068315
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10420 - October 04, 2021, 06:29 PM

    Thanks Zeca.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10421 - October 07, 2021, 11:00 PM

    i wonder any historian /links  could help me with a simple question using this  picture and the  wikipedia  Middle Eastern history link....



    Timeline of Middle Eastern history

    Question is simple  can we get some some sort of approximate number ( could be +/_  100%) on THE POPULATION OF FOLKS  LIVING DURING THE HISTORY YOU SEE ABOVE  at different times all the way to 9th century 

    thanks

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10422 - October 10, 2021, 08:30 PM

    Altara,

    The associators.
    The quranic authors simulated many fictional dialogues in order to defend the texts from potential threats such as claiming oral trasmission to refute plagiarism or claiming to be not poetry to defend itself from being mixed up with other contemporary rhymed literature.
    The same authors are addressimg christianized arabs with a sufficient education to understand the ongoing theological debates.
    Considering that the quranic messenger is fictional, then the authors needed to stage fictional adversaries of the messenger.
    Reading the literature around the associators, and seeing that there are no real pagans around, then it may be reasonable to assume that the associators too are not to be intended as a real category.
    The quranic authors make use of frequent biblical and extra biblical (or jewish oral traditions) tropos, using all what they considered to belong to god message.
    The biblical prophet is usually sent to call back the jews to adhetence to god's law and respect of the torah and many jewish kings were often deviating to pagan practices.
    The layer jewish literature depicts even the jews in egypt to have been saved from egypt at the lasr usefull minute before they would be lost to egyptian paganism.
    The quranuc authors staged a fictional non historical challenge between an arab prophet and supposed polytheists trying to create a bible like situation where the arab prophet was calling back his fellow arabs to strict adhetence to god message, copy pssting the idea of the jewish prophets calling back jewish kings.
    This idea would have for sure raised the attention of christianized arabs who continually hear of the biblical stories.

    In between the lines the authors inserted their message, true message...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10423 - October 11, 2021, 05:45 PM

    Emran El-Badawi: The Quran and the Aramaic Gospel Tradition
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBCr_U8wGOE
    Quote
    In this interview, I have the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Emran El-Bedawi. Dr. El-Bedawi is a scholar of the Qur'an and a friend. He is program director and associate professor of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Houston. He founded the Arab Studies program at UH and he has designed, implemented, and assessed degree programs in the Humanities and Sciences. Dr. El-Badawi also served as founding executive director and treasurer of the International Qur'anic Studies Association.

    In this interview, we discuss Dr. El-Bedawi's introduction into Qur'anic studies, his background, and some of his work on the Qur'an and the Aramaic Gospel Traditions, as well as his forthcoming work.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10424 - October 12, 2021, 11:24 AM

    Altara,


    Yes.

    Quote
    The associators.


    Yes.

    Quote
    The quranic authors simulated many fictional dialogues in order to defend the texts from potential threats such as claiming oral trasmission to refute plagiarism or claiming to be not poetry to defend itself from being mixed up with other contemporary rhymed literature.


    Yes. They have cleared all what could be something which would go against their discourse.
    Quote
    The same authors are addressing Christianized Arabs with a sufficient education to understand the ongoing theological debates.

    Yes.
    Quote
    Considering that the quranic messenger is fictional, then the authors needed to stage fictional adversaries of the messenger.

    Yes.
    Quote
    Reading the literature around the associators, and seeing that there are no real pagans around, then it may be reasonable to assume that the associators too are not to be intended as a real category.

    They are a theological real category.

    Quote
    The quranic authors make use of frequent biblical and extra biblical (or jewish oral traditions) topoi, using all what they considered to belong to god message.

    Yes.

    Quote
    The biblical prophet is usually sent to call back the Jews to adherence to god's law and respect of the torah and many Jewish kings were often deviating to pagan practices.


    1/Yes, and the origin of this stance vs the Jews is?
    2/ And why the authors use  this stance?

    Quote
    The qur'anic authors staged a fictional non historical challenge between an Arab prophet and supposed polytheists trying to create a bible like situation where the Arab prophet was calling back his fellow Arabs to strict adherence to god message, copy pasting the idea of the Jewish prophets calling back Jewish kings.


    Yes. All is fictional. Therefore, and it is an important point, there is a gap between the qur'anic authors  and those who have received those texts; those ones have no clues about who has written down those texts and have invented the context that we know to try to making sense of them.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10425 - October 12, 2021, 05:54 PM

    well I need to put these  nuggets from the posts in to my personal folder...
    Quote
    Altara,
    .....................
    The quranuc authors staged a fictional non historical challenge between an arab prophet and supposed polytheists trying to create a bible like situation where the arab prophet was calling back his fellow arabs to strict adhetence to god message, copy pssting the idea of the jewish prophets calling back jewish kings...............


    .................
    Yes. All is fictional. Therefore, and it is an important point, there is a gap between the qur'anic authors  and those who have received those texts; those ones have no clues about who has written down those texts and have invented the context that we know to try to making sense of them.


    I hope I will read something in this life  IN PUBLICATION  OR IN BOOK from Altara

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10426 - October 12, 2021, 08:03 PM

    Altara,

    Thanks.
    Please help me understand.
    "They are a real theological catgegory" you mean that despite the fact that the associators in the quranic texts are fictional, they are consteucted to evoke in the christian audience a real theological position practiced around them?
    If this is the case then i may argue that associators can be understood as a group attributing partners to allah, and these may be either the Christians with trinity or the jafnides which i read in a paper by fischer that they were still sometime sacrificying to pagan deities in order to keep good relationships with pagan groups.

    About the similitude of the quranic discourse with the biblical tradition, it is the prophets like muhammad in the quran whi the a stance vs the jews for not following god commandments.
    Ore are you referring to a specific ur-model within the bible?
    In this case the model is abraham who accuses his father of worshipping idols. We must indeed remember that in jewish oral tradition eber, shem etc.. were still alive at the time of abraham and allah was not forgotten, but was still the main god, with the difference that others minor entities were being worshipped.

    Abraham is also the main individual to whom muhammad is inspired becouse muhammad is a gentile (hanif) and muhammad is depicted as the one to call the arabs to monotheism.

    Did i misanderstood your questions?
    Were you pointing to something else?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10427 - October 13, 2021, 08:41 AM

    Quote
    "They are a real theological category" you mean that despite the fact that the associators in the quranic texts are fictional, they are constructed to evoke in the Christian audience a real theological position practiced around them?


    Yes. Real theological position which is the one of the Christian audience   

    Quote
    If this is the case then i may argue that associators can be understood as a group attributing partners to Allah, and these may be either the Christians with trinity or the jafnides which i read in a paper by Fischer that they were still sometime sacrificing to pagan deities in order to keep good relationships with pagan groups.


    The Jafnides were Christians. Give the reference of the Fisher article.

    Quote
    About the similitude of the quranic discourse with the biblical tradition, it is the prophets like muhammad in the quran with the a stance vs the Jews for not following god commandments. Ore are you referring to a specific ur-model within the bible?


    Yes. And this is the stance of who else?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10428 - October 13, 2021, 08:58 AM

    Altara,

    ............or the jafnides which i read in a paper by fischer that they were still sometime sacrificying to pagan deities in order to keep good relationships with pagan groups.


       

    The Jafnides were Christians. Give the reference of the Fisher article.


    well there were plenty of Christian sects as well as Jewish sects in Arabian peninsula of that time ., in fact even today we have Christian sects and  Jewish sects all over the globe

    Rethinking the Jafnids: new approaches to Rome's Arab clients ..2013  by Mark Whittow., University of Oxford

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10429 - October 13, 2021, 09:30 AM

    Thanks altara

    So the associators are the trinitarian christian.

    The artcle is
    42295994, draft text arabia and the great powers, by philipp wood, page 13
    I am reading too much Fisher... sorry
    An 8th century source is mentioned which accused the jafnuds to have been keeping some pagan practices.
    In general jafnids are described as monophistes in roman sources.
    But the quranic authors may have exploited these residual pagan practices to rise in a submitted arab group an anti jafnids sentiment to shift alliance.
    The source is late and isolated, so it might be mery only polemical like procopius accusations to nasrids.

    Cannot post links sorry.

    Let me see what bible book inspired the case here.
    Thanks
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10430 - October 13, 2021, 12:46 PM

    Altara

    Book of jeremiah.

    Israelites accused of associate and polytheism
    Exile of jeremiah
    Call to repentance and forgivness
    Exile (jews settled in babylon)
    Jerusalem occupied by unbelievers
    Call to follow the law
    Accusation to jews to have broken the covenant

    Etc...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10431 - October 15, 2021, 10:05 AM

    Thanks altara


    Thanks to you!

    Quote
    So the associators are the trinitarian christian.


    When we know the 5 and 6th c.: Who else could they be?   Thinking hard

    Quote
    The article is 42295994, draft text arabia and the great powers, by philipp wood, page 13
    I am reading too much Fisher... sorry
    An 8th century source is mentioned which accused the jafnuds to have been keeping some pagan practices.
    In general jafnids are described as monophistes in roman sources.


    For a Muslim authors (Ibn al-Kalbī, The Book of Idols) Christianity is polytheism. Al-Kalbī adds stuff that nobody knows but, for him, which is totally in line with Christianity since Christianity is idolatry. Furthermore here he deals with Christians Arabs: to his public, he has to portrait them worst than a 'simple' Christianity.


    Quote
    But the quranic authors may have exploited these residual pagan practices to rise in a submitted arab group an anti jafnids sentiment to shift alliance.


    The target of the  quranic authors is (for me...) Christianity and nothing else.
    Quote
    The source is late and isolated, so it might be mery only polemical like Procopius accusations to nasrids.


    Thanks to give the reference of  Procopius accusations to nasrids.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10432 - October 15, 2021, 01:20 PM

    Article 24117123, g Fisher writing the history of the persian arabs the pre islamic perspetive on the nasrids of al hira
    Page 261, procopius on al mundhir
    Page 263 theophanes reports al mundhir temptation to convert to christianity
    Page 268, pseudo zacharias, al mindhir depicted as pagan, his court depicted with important christian presence
    Page 272 the chronicles of seert describe al numan conversion (before being imprisoned and killed by the persians)

    All sources are roman sided and biased. Excluding the exaggerated parts, indeed the nasrids leaders are never described as Christians and they are mixed with christians.

    Philipp wood, 42289041, draft christianity in the Arabian peninsula.
    Provides again same sources about the environment in al hira.

    The eastern arabs were still having an important pagan presence if the kings remained pagans until the 6th century and if missionaries were dispatched.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10433 - October 15, 2021, 01:58 PM

    Thanks.
    There is one important point in this Wood & Fisher article: it tells us from where the 7th c. Arabs troops came from when they arrives in Syria-Palestine. Suffice to read, all is said: they just redo what they used to do before (the 7th c.)  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10434 - October 15, 2021, 02:22 PM

    Thanks.

    Yes. They are used to move quickly from east to west, hit and go with booty.
    Al mundhir of the nasrides used to ride the roman area to check the roman resistance.
    In the 7th century, they have defeated the persians.
    They will continue to attak the west as they did already independently of persians.
    The eastern persians and western roman arabs had to be addeded in the peace treaty to stop fighting each other without their masters permission.
    Romans are retreating, the western arabs were disbanded by mauricious. They take over the political power after defeating the romans at yarmuk (or at least pushing a retreating army away)
    They head north and then pass by jerusalem in 637 and build the first house following quranic verses.
    Then they defeat their eastern foes in 661.

    The question is how do we understand how they came to find the quranic texts. The western arabs were led by the jafnids who were miaphisites.
    Now there is another group leading them with quranic texts.

    Both eastern and western arabs looks like being in possesion if quranic texts.

    What do you think of the book of jeremiah as inspiration and source for quranic muhammad


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10435 - October 15, 2021, 05:13 PM

    That Fisher and Wood article:

    Writing the History of the "Persian Arabs": The pre-Islamic perspective on the "Nasrids" of al-Hirah

    https://www.academia.edu/24117123/With_G_Fisher_Writing_the_History_of_the_Persian_Arabs_The_pre_Islamic_perspective_on_the_Nasrids_of_al_Hirah
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10436 - October 16, 2021, 01:31 AM

    Thanks.

    Yes. They are used to move quickly from east to west, hit and go with booty.
    Al mundhir of the nasrides used to ride the roman area to check the roman resistance.

    Yes.

    Quote
    In the 7th century, they have defeated the persians.


    And in the same time (the 30's) went west with one clear first objective which is linked to their precedent (5,6 th. c) expeditions.

    Quote
    They will continue to attak the west as they did already independently of persians.


    Yes.
    Quote
    The eastern persians and western roman arabs had to be addeded in the peace treaty to stop fighting each other without their masters permission.
    Romans are retreating, the western arabs were disbanded by mauricious. They take over the political power after defeating the romans at yarmuk (or at least pushing a retreating army away)


    It's more simple than that : Eastern Arabs went west: what was their first objective? (reflect, it is very simple when you link it  to what they did before)

    Quote
    They head north and then pass by jerusalem in 637 and build the first house following quranic verses.
    Then they defeat their eastern foes in 661.


    Those who " head north and then pass by jerusalem in 637 and build the first house following quranic verses." and installing in Jerusalem-Damascus come from the East ; they are Iraqi. As such they do not want to lose Iraq ; that is why from Damascus where they are installed, they continue to look to Iraq because it is their homeland.


    Quote
    The question is how do we understand how they came to find the quranic texts.

     

    I have a response to this (important ) question  Afro but I will not giving it here.


    Quote
    The western arabs were led by the jafnids who were miaphisites.
    Now there is another group leading them with quranic texts.


    Yes.

    Quote
    Both eastern and western arabs looks like being in possesion if quranic texts.


    I do not think so. For me, only the Easterners had (some) quranic texts.

    Quote
    What do you think of the book of jeremiah as inspiration and source for quranic muhammad


    It is interesting. But accessory as all Biblical prophets had more or less the same adventures. I consider that the pattern-source on which 'Muhammad' was built  is another (Biblical) figure of the Quran.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10437 - October 16, 2021, 08:45 AM

    It is interesting. But accessory as all Biblical prophets had more or less the same adventures. I consider that the pattern-source on which 'Muhammad' was built  is another (Biblical) figure of the Quran.


    Moses?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10438 - October 16, 2021, 09:04 AM

    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10439 - October 17, 2021, 06:59 PM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Yes. All is fictional. Therefore, and it is an important point, there is a gap between the qur'anic authors  and those who have received those texts; those ones have no clues about who has written down those texts and have invented the context that we know to try to making sense of them.


    Shouldn t we make a difference btw "the litterati" of the 630's who were able to understand the texts sufficiently to head for Jerusalem and build the house, and the late 7th C/early 8th C exegetes who lost all contact with the meaning of the texts?
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