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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10320 - July 07, 2021, 08:57 PM

    I was not speaking of 'prayers'.

    Oh I see ..  Oops my mistake..

    Quote
    Apart Q 1 (more or less) there is no 'prayers' in the Quran.


    Q1?  who knows what was Q1 to start with dear Altara?  ] To start with Q1 could have been Q5 or something else., THAT WRITTEN BOOK was/is screwed up long ago or even  to begin with., No one knows what is Q1 and what is Q114.,  but but., as for as  prayer for faith-heads is concerned,  we can selectively string  10/15 verses together and make   some 5 or 6 make shift prayer songs out of those so-called 6200 verses...  anyways let me read that Q1...

    Quote
    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
     All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
     The Beneficent, the Merciful.
     Master of the Day of Judgment.
     Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
     Keep us on the right path.
     The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors.
    Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray. 


    But even that Q1 or any other prayer songs out of that book ., we got to make some  gender neutral wording to make prayers songs out of it

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10321 - July 09, 2021, 06:05 PM

    https://www.amazon.com/Controversies-over-Islamic-Origins-Mun/dp/1527568210/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=munim+sirry&qid=1625853738&sr=8-6
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10322 - July 10, 2021, 05:04 PM






    he sounds like a very smart guy dear Altara... He appears to have written PART OF YOUR BOOK...

    Quote
    1). What evidence do we have to reconstruct the origins of Islam?

    2). On the basis of what sources can the first century of Islam be accessed?

    3). Why do historians of early Islam consider the literary sources of Islamic origins to be so problematic?

    4). How is the problem of early Islamic history framed?

    This book addresses these critical questions by discussing various approaches to the problem of reconstructing Islamic origins. In a spirit of welcoming diverse perspectives and encouraging healthy scholarly debate, it explores different, even conflicting modern theories about the emergence of Islam through various case studies, including recent debates on the Quran, the biography of the Prophet, and early conquest narratives. A broad spectrum of both traditionalist and revisionist scholarship is critically examined with the purpose of illuminating not only how modern scholars differ, but also what they have in common.

    Not sure he answered those questions but questions are good

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zneH1g3U8cg

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10323 - July 11, 2021, 11:34 PM

    Sample extract from his book

    https://www.cambridgescholars.com/resources/pdfs/978-1-5275-6821-1-sample.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10324 - July 12, 2021, 11:55 AM



    thank you Mark., it is good stuff from Mun'im Sirry ., very smart guy., but I wonder whether he says ANYWHERE IN HIS PUBLICAIONS OR IN THE BOOKS.. that QURAN IS NOT WORD OF ALLAH/GOD whatever ...., He actually studied in Pakistan ....

    I would consider ALL ACEDAMICS WITH Ph. D. degrees and work in a University and and  write books/publications on faith MUST WRITE A STATEMENT whether they consider that Quran or any religious so-called scriptural book is word Allah/God.. whatever .,     but I am glad he wrote that book ...

    Quote
    ...This is not to say that prior to 1970s traditional beliefs about Islamic origins were always accepted at face value. However, the newer wave of critical scholarship, rooted in western studies of Islam conducted in the 1970s, has been quite successful in exposing major weaknesses of the traditional narrative. To mention but a few examples, the renowned British scholar John Wansbrough’s influential books Qur’anic Studies (1977) and The Sectarian Milieu (1978) basically view the traditional Muslim sources as literary works, not historical records. For Wansbrough, these sources present salvation history rather than a history of “what really happened.”

      In 1977, Patricia Crone and Michael Cook also published their provocative book Hagarism and John Burton published The Collection of the Qur’an, both inspired by Wansbrough’s methodology. These four works, of course, differ from one another, but as a whole, they offer a totally different explanation of the emergence of Islam than the generally accepted traditionalist account............


    that is what he said at that link  and I wonder whether you read that John Burton book on "The Collection of the Qur’an, .pdf"

    that is a good one to read

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10325 - July 12, 2021, 06:18 PM

    OOooooPs.....  They Called Me Deviant



    and that is  what Mun’im Sirry  says   on Aug 2017  and apparently it happened because of his  remarks on the "origins of the Quran"

    well Sirry  you are LUCKY THEY JUST CALLED YOU DEVIANT., in a wrong place.. wrong time they would have called you devil and would have stoned you ., well read the rest at the link

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10326 - July 20, 2021, 08:00 AM

    Altara, 

    What may be a proper source to study the arab history  and movements for the first half of the 7th century?
    I was searching some material obout the origins of the umayyads, cannot find anything which does not necessarily repeat the mekkan context. Do we have anything outside it?

    Thanks
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10327 - July 21, 2021, 07:53 AM

    well Spaghetti  asking questions and our Altara bologn is no where to respond ., well let me answer  those Qs
    1.   Altara, 

    What may be a proper source to study the arab history  and movements for the first half of the 7th century?

    The proper source of arab history  and movements for the first half of the 7th century  is in one of the chapters of a book written by  Altara .. yet to be  published  Cheesy
    Quote
    I was searching some material obout the origins of the umayyads, cannot find anything which does not necessarily repeat the mekkan context. Do we have anything outside it?

    Thanks

    THAT IS THE BIGGEST MYSTERY OF ISLAM dear Spaghettibologn.,  If we remove the stories that were written in 9/10th century on those so-called FOUR HORSE MEN .... THE  Rashidun Caliphate,....  . you will know nothing about these guys ., in fact for me THE NAMES OF THESE GUYS ARE ALSO A PROBLEM ., Our good friend Altara calls them as Knights Templar of Islam   or  Freemasons  of Islam ...

    And actually he may be right...  look at the timeline of these four guys at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0    including Prophet of Islam

    Quote
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant

    632: Death of the Holy Prophet
    632: Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.
    634: Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr.
    634: Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph
    644: Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar.
    644:  Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali.
    661: Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
    680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.

    All that stuff is Mystery with Mystical names unless you take the stories written in 9/10 the century or later as History of these guys

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10328 - July 22, 2021, 08:38 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1418239682958270467
    Quote
    It's been a while since I've written a thread, but someone recently asked me whether or not there is a connection between the famous ḥadīth about the prostration of the sun in the Ṣaḥīḥ of al-Bukhārī and a passage in the Alexander Legend. Here’s my attempt at a cogent answer …

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10329 - July 22, 2021, 11:26 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTqbWLkHT7c
    Quote
    Session 1 : Le Coran et les ambitions impériales omeyyades / The Qur’an and Umayyad Struggle for Imperial Power
    00:00 Mehdy SHADDEL (University of Leiden), “The Birth of Islam in Umayyad Syria: From Ethno-Religious Movement to Imperial Religion”
    34:08  Discutant : Bastien DUMONT (Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne)

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10330 - July 23, 2021, 02:52 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1418239682958270467

    Quote
    It's been a while since I've written a Thread, but someone recently asked me whether or not there is a connection between the famous ḥadīth about the prostration of the sun in the Ṣaḥīḥ of al-Bukhārī and a passage in the Alexander Legend. Here’s my attempt at a cogent answer …


    First, let’s look at the ḥadīth. Abū Ḏarr al-Ġifārī reports that he was at the mosque with the prophet at sundown, and unprompted the prophet asked,
    “Abū Ḏarr, do you know where the sun sets?” “God and his messenger know best,” he replied. He answered, ...

    Quote
    “[The sun] proceeds until she prostrates (tasğuda) beneath the Throne; she asks permission, and permission is granted her. But soon [the sun] shall prostrate and it will not be accepted, and she shall seek permission but shall not receive it. It will be said to her, ...


    Return to whence you came!”, and she will rise in West. That is meaning of the Exalted’s decree, «The Sun proceed along a course of its own; that is the decree of the All-Knowing Almighty» (Q. Yāsīn 36:38).”


      all that and this png pic i see about Alexander

     

    is from Sean W. Anthony twitter that zeca posted..

    MY SIMPE QUESTION IS.,  WHY GO ALEXANDER? WHY GO THAT FAR   320/350 BC??

    why not go in to bible books and read   about sun??  here https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=sun&version=NIV

    I am sure some  Quran writers of that time could easily make a statement that we see  in Quran as well as in hadith from those bible statements on sun ..
     
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10331 - July 26, 2021, 10:37 AM

    Altara, 

    What may be a proper source to study the arab history  and movements for the first half of the 7th century?
    I was searching some material obout the origins of the umayyads, cannot find anything which does not necessarily repeat the mekkan context. Do we have anything outside it?
    Thanks


    Origin of the Arabs who are at the Yarmuk battle (636) who will become the "Umayyads": All scholarly work repeats more or less the Muslim narrative.  Is this historical? Nope.
    Question is then, who are these Arabs?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10332 - July 26, 2021, 10:40 AM


    Bastien DUMONT (Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne) has some difficulties to make something of what Shaddel said.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10333 - July 26, 2021, 10:44 AM


    The Dye lecture: YT Britton subs available
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJphpYBk6y0&t=2754s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10334 - July 26, 2021, 12:04 PM

    Thanks Altara,

    So, if these arabs are at Yarmuk and the question who are these people and if all scholarly work repeat the same music, then where shall we look into to get a historical view? Any suggestion?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10335 - July 26, 2021, 12:13 PM

    And Altara

    I am trying to understand the issue raised by you and Kerr about the quranic language and script.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/phdnix/status/1415001180254740489?s=21

    I found this question posed to van Putten time ago.
    He says that in najran we alredy have an inscription in quranic arabic. Script is different, but the arabic is the same.
    So he is saying that kerr is wrong and this hypothesis does not work.

    Indeed looks like that al jallad is telling him that hima inscription is most probably left over by travellers.
    This is probably due to the fact the the intensity and frequency of srabic inscriptions in the north is way hihger than in the south and one single inscription is the exception to confirm the rule.

    Did i got it right?
    Are there other observations about the hima inscription which may convince van putten that kerr is right?

    Is al jallad acknoledging the problem and van putten hiding his head in the sand?

    I sometime find difficult to understand van putten. He is very quick in rebuking western scholars but hesitant toward criticism of the tradition.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10336 - July 26, 2021, 05:14 PM

    Thanks Altara,

    So, if these arabs are at Yarmuk and the question who are these people and if all scholarly work repeat the same music, then where shall we look into to get a historical view? Any suggestion?


    You should look at  when, how, why, and for whom (armed) Arabs where more or less at the same place in the past of the 7th c.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10337 - July 26, 2021, 08:46 PM

    Thanks Altara.
    I got the point.
    It means a long hard work.
    Have you a name to suggest? Just to start from a not to wide prospective.

    And ... what do you thi k of hima inscription near najran mentioned by van putten?
    That is way south from hijaz and najran is trade passage.
    And as van putten says that if zulu is still zulu even if written in roman, still is written in roman and not zulu. And is made by a zulu educated in roman script for necessity.
    If there is no such inscription in central hijaz then means there was no such practice there.
    And what is the date of hima inscription? Is it authentic?
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10338 - Yesterday at 11:05 AM

    What does it matter that there are some lone Arabic inscriptions in the South? It is clear that the leading culture there did not use the Northern Arabic script, but the Southern one.

    Kerr is right. All signs for an established culture using the Arabic script point to the North, not to Mecca or Yatrib where about noting is found (In the Dye talk the population of Mecca 6-7 th C is estimated at 600...).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10339 - Yesterday at 02:50 PM


    Kerr is right. All signs for an established culture using the Arabic script point to the North, not to Mecca or Yatrib where about noting is found (In the Dye talk the population of Mecca 6-7 th C is estimated at 600...).

    Hi mundi .. If Robert Kerr is right then what do we do with Petra and Dan Gibson??  ..lol.,  Seriously we need to carefully analyze Robert Kerr work on early Islam..

    And what is your present opinion on Dan Gibson's theory?

    Quote


      and where do we draw line on the geographical Saudi Arabia., as Northern  Arabia and southern Arabia ??

    Can I make the present South Yemen as southern Arabia  and present Jordan as Northern  Arabia?   glad to see you back..

    https://understandingislam.today/is-mecca-or-petra-islams-true-birthplace/

     http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Kerr_Robert_origine-koranic-script.htm
     
    http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Kerr_Robert_origine-koranic-writing_fichiers/image002.jpg

    good stuff.. good stuff..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10340 - Yesterday at 06:08 PM

    Hello Yeez,

    Gibson is wrong. The early mosques don't point to Petra. But some do by coïncidence.
    But Gibson is also right. The early mosques don't point to Mecca.
    And I think Kerr is right. He says that the mention of Qbl in the Quran does not mean qibla as prayer direction but is rather "tradition' as in 'kabalah'...

    I think pre 650 there was no specific prayer direction.
    And I dont think that a full fledged army coming from Mecca (with 600 inhabitants) is realistic.

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