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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10260 - June 15, 2021, 06:31 AM

    Dear yeezevee

    this book asnwers your question.

    much before any other argument proposed by Altara by reading this i got the point that Muhammad is the summa of stories, rather than historical

    https://www.routledge.com/The-Quran-and-its-Biblical-Subtext/Reynolds/p/book/9780415524247

    Professor Reynolds makes 12 cases listing the muffassirun and their conflicting ideas from Muqatil sulaiman to Tabari, Ibn Kathir etc..

    his "exercise" made on 12 cases can be easily extended to many more in the quran


    I had forgotten this one...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10261 - June 15, 2021, 07:00 AM

    Altara

    I was studying on the topic of the praised one in the south arabic inscription at Najran siege


    Which inscription you are referring to?

    Quote
    Daniel is praised by the Persian KIng in the book of Daniel.
    Daniel bears also the prophecy about the 4 kingdoms and the last one, moved by God, which would destroy and reaplace the other Kingdoms as God driven Kingdom
    May I assume that if Daniel is the referred one here, and by his help the conquest of najran is achieved, those who wrote the text may have felt themselves as those representative of that kingdom
    and if that idea evolved into the quranic muhammad then the "messenger" to whom allah speaks and "muahmmad" of the quran may not be the same person, but Islam associated them (so to say)


    1/ I have to see this inscription and what say scholars about it.
    2/ Possible.
    3/ I consider that there was no 'Muhammad'.

    Quote
    A second question.
    About the sanaa palimpsest

    how can we see if the lower text is a scribe trying to rebuild a damaged copy of it?
    And if this is the case, how do we see if that rebuilding of the text is made upon a text which is 50 years old and not 5 years old?Just to understand how to analyzing the text of the lower one we can see how old is the written copy from which it was copied.


    1/ Yes, it is what I consider as very possible.
    2/ I consider that Quranic texts are older than the 7th c.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10262 - June 15, 2021, 07:46 AM

    Sanaa palimpsest:

    Eleanor Cellard practically proved the palimpsest was copied from another written exemplar. Scribe hands changed in the middel of a sentence....
    Sanaa Lower seems to be a previous or divergent edition that was circulation together, before or after the (uthmanic) standard rasm.
    This is another indication of a much older tradition than 650, maybe even earlier than 630.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10263 - June 15, 2021, 08:42 AM

    Which inscription you are referring to?

    1/ I have to see this inscription and what say scholars about it.
    2/ Possible.
    3/ I consider that there was no 'Muhammad'.

    1/ Yes, it is what I consider as very possible.
    2/ I consider that Quranic texts are older than the 7th c.



    1/ Ja 1028, you suggested book of Daniel chapter 2
    2/ thanks
    3/ ok, to my understanding, the muhammad mentioned in the quranic texts 4 time and the messenger of the same texts are the same person in the mind of the scribe/s

    1/ is there any study that srting from Sanaa lower text deduces that it is derived from a written copy, possibly damaged? And assuming the higher carbon dating of sanaa 648, how earlier this original text was compared to the sanaa lower copy?
    2/ clear

    I am trying to understand how, observing the sanaa palimpsest (and possibly Birmingham) we can agrue that the original was older more than 2 years so to say


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10264 - June 15, 2021, 08:42 AM

    Sanaa palimpsest:

    Eleanor Cellard practically proved the palimpsest was copied from another written exemplar. Scribe hands changed in the middel of a sentence....
    Sanaa Lower seems to be a previous or divergent edition that was circulation together, before or after the (uthmanic) standard rasm.
    This is another indication of a much older tradition than 650, maybe even earlier than 630.


    thanks Mundi
    if you have the link?

    otherwise I search it
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10265 - June 15, 2021, 09:38 AM

    Dear yeezevee

    this book asnwers your question.

    much before any other argument proposed by Altara by reading this i got the point that Muhammad is the summa of stories, rather than historical

    https://www.routledge.com/The-Quran-and-its-Biblical-Subtext/Reynolds/p/book/9780415524247

    Professor Reynolds makes 12 cases listing the muffassirun and their conflicting ideas from Muqatil sulaiman to Tabari, Ibn Kathir etc..

    his "exercise" made on 12 cases can be easily extended to many more in the quran

    my goodness gracious .. that is the first post I am reading dear Spaghettibologn., how did i miss your posts?  when did you join the forum...??

    Home made Spaghetti bologn is really good recipe for dinner.. it s good food .. it is like Quran.. the book.. lol..


    Yes .. most of Gabriel Said Reynolds work is really important ., I think he did not get the credit he deserves on his work around the origins   Quran..  BUT ALTARA PUT A BIG SPANNER AROUND Gabriel Said Reynolds work  and that is down  here

      I consider that there was no 'Muhammad'.
     I consider that Quranic texts are older than the 7th c



    what is your opinion on that dear   

     

    ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10266 - June 15, 2021, 09:46 AM

    1/ Ja 1028, you suggested book of Daniel chapter 2
    2/ thanks
    3/ ok, to my understanding, the muhammad mentioned in the quranic texts 4 time and the messenger of the same texts are the same person in the mind of the scribe/s


    1/ I got Covid 19 and had some neuronal (only... but which continuing... there little progress...) sequels. So thanks to give me the link where I suggest Daniel 2.  
    Ja 1028 is here :  http://dasi.cnr.it/index.php?id=dasi_prj_epi&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=278522197&recId=2416
    Robin addressing it (in French) here:
    Robin 1991-1993 d: 151-152   Robin, Christian J. 1991-1993 [1992]. Du paganisme au monothéisme. Pages 139-155 in Christian J. Robin (ed.). L'Arabie antique de Karibʾîl à Mahomet. Nouvelles données sur l'histoire des Arabes grâces aux inscriptions. (Revue du Monde Musulman et de la Mediterranée, 61). Aix-en-Provence: Édisud.
    https://www.academia.edu/37597932/L_Arabie_antique_de_Karib%CA%BE%C3%AEl_%C3%A0_Mahomet_Nouvelles_donn%C3%A9es_sur_l_histoire_des_Arabes_gr%C3%A2ce_aux_inscriptions_sous_la_responsabilit%C3%A9_de_Christian_Robin_in_Revue_du_Monde_musulman_et_de_la_M%C3%A9diterran%C3%A9e_61_1991_3_Quelques_%C3%A9pisodes_marquants_de_l_histoire_sudarabique_pp_55_70_?auto=download

    Robin, Christian J. 2008. Joseph, dernier roi de Ḥimyar (de 522 à 525, ou une des années suivantes). Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam, 34: 1-125.
    2011 English abstract from his French article:L’église des Aksûmites à Ẓafâr (Yémen) a-t-elle été incendiée ?
    Was the Church of the Aksumites in Ẓafâr (Yemen) burned?

    https://journals.openedition.org/remmm/7101
     The episode of the destruction of the church of the Aksumites at Ẓafâr by the troops of the Himyarite king Joseph in 522 allows us to study the practices of historical recording in pre-Islamic Arabia and the circulation of historical information between the various historiographies at work in the Near East. Analyzing contemporary inscriptions, this study sheds some light on the mechanisms of the transmission of information to Christian narrative sources, and shows that even later hagiographic sources may have preserved more reliable material than other older texts.
    Quote
    1/ is there any study that string from Sanaa lower text deduces that it is derived from a written copy, possibly damaged? And assuming the higher carbon dating of sanaa 648, how earlier this original text was compared to the sanaa lower copy?


    3/ Yes.


    4/ Mundi has responded to you. I do not know if Cellard says clearly this,( but that's what I think because I think that there is no 'oral' tradition

    Quote
    2/ clear

    3/ I am trying to understand how, observing the sanaa palimpsest (and possibly Birmingham) we can agrue that the original was older more than 2 years so to say


    2/ For me as well.
    3/ Difficult.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10267 - June 15, 2021, 09:53 AM

    Spaghetti bolognese is one of my favorite dish. A childhood dish that my mother did very well and that I do today regularly.
    She did it with red wine, tomatoes, carrots, onions, garlic, sausage meat (pork) and beef mince, celery with a 3h of slow cooking. It was marvelous Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10268 - June 15, 2021, 11:30 AM

    Hi jeezevee

    Thanks all is right.
    Just make you note that my nickname is a reference to something which has become historical in people mind ovrr time but never existed.

    Spaghetti bolognese exists only on tourists menu and outside italy.
    If you go to Bologna and you order them in the 60', people look at you and ask... what?

    Now after many tourists came, people understand it...

    Nice to meet you
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10269 - June 15, 2021, 03:15 PM

    Hi jeezevee  ......
     
    Spaghetti bolognese exists only on tourists menu and outside italy.
    ...............................
    Nice to meet you

    Glad to see your response ..i did not know that dear Spaghettibologn. and I am curious about your words from your previous post
    Quote
    ..... Professor Reynolds makes 12 cases listing the muffassirun and their conflicting ideas from Muqatil sulaiman to Tabari, Ibn Kathir etc..

    his "exercise" made on 12 cases can be easily extended to many more in the quran 

    I wonder whether you can  throw on to the board some of those  examples  on conflicting ideas of these so-called  muffassirun with-in Isam?

     Question is .,.....Why would they have conflicting understanding of Quran verses if they are all reading same book ...... same verses? 

    And again what is your opinion on Altara statement "that there was NO Muhammad .. The prophet of Islam??"

     I consider that there was no 'Muhammad'.
     I consider that Quranic texts are older than the 7th c

     what is your opinion on that?

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10270 - June 15, 2021, 03:53 PM

    1/ I got Covid 19 and had some neuronal (only... but which continuing... there little progress...) sequels..........................

    what?? Oh my goodness.,.. when did you get that?? Did you get that vaccine??. your life is more  important for others than to yourself dear Altara.,  And that is  because of that book you are writing .. .,

      I  do not want to die before i read that book and i don't want you to die before you finish  that book..

    I hope.,   body/mind wise... everything is intact and you are back to normal hating English language and British and American  Islamic historians who hate French fries that are cooked out of Islam .

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10271 - June 15, 2021, 09:16 PM

    Scribes must have understood the language of the Quran. Otherwise perfect copying would have been impossible imo.

    That later exegetes didnt understand some key words is not in conflict with above:
    1/ the exegetes lived later. The understanding of certain terms might have gotten lost by that time
    2/ I am fluent in French. That doesn't mean I understand all the words. Especially , let's say Altara, if you would use new religious vocabulary when writing the foundational texts of a new sect.
    3/ But we see, that "daily use" of 1st C HA papyri was identical to daily use sentences in the Quran. The orthography is the same, the grammar seems to be the same. That would be impossible without an institutional transmission of the language and script.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10272 - June 15, 2021, 11:12 PM

    Quote
    Scribes must have understood the language of the Quran.


    It is not this whose I talk.

    Quote
    Otherwise perfect copying would have been impossible imo.


    Of course.

    Quote
    That later exegetes didnt understand some key words is not in conflict with above:
    1/ the exegetes lived later.


    It is not only that they did not understand, it is that they are not agree in their comprehension of words and passages. That they lived later does not change anything, it just attests that, in fact, they know nothing about these texts. And what they believe knowing (Muhammad/Kaba) that serves them as a grille de lecture  is wrong.

    Quote
    I am fluent in French. That doesn't mean I understand all the words. if you would use new religious vocabulary when writing the foundational texts of a new sect.


    Because French is not your maternal language. It is not specifically ' new religious vocabulary' it is entire passages that they cannot comprehend.

    Quote
    But we see, that "daily use" of 1st C HA papyri was identical to daily use sentences in the Quran. The orthography is the same, the grammar seems to be the same. That would be impossible without an institutional transmission of the language and script.


    Of course.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10273 - June 16, 2021, 06:33 AM

    Altara,

    Even if a language is maternal, it doesn't mean you understand all niche vocabulary. I think the most probable is that the Quran was a collection of some older texts and some contemporary to the collection, by a small group of people in North-West Arabia.

    The book was copied but not read by outsiders (therefore no Quranic quotations in epigraphy or papyri for the first 50 years, or 100?). Once the Quranic hype came into full swing, the language was still sufficiently understood, spoken and transferred by the older generation (it was the commercial and military standard?), but the detailed comprehension of the niche vocabulary did not exist anymore.

    The same we see to a lesser degree in the bible and even in the NT. There are Greek words of the Lords prayer that are not really clear what they mean....
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10274 - June 16, 2021, 10:03 AM

    Quote
    Even if a language is maternal, it doesn't mean you understand all niche vocabulary.


    Draw the consequence of this.

    Quote
    The book was copied but not read by outsiders (therefore no Quranic quotations in epigraphy or papyri for the first 50 years, or 100?).


    Yes.

    Quote
    Once the Quranic hype came into full swing, the language was still sufficiently understood, spoken and transferred by the older generation (it was the commercial and military standard?), but the detailed comprehension of the niche vocabulary did not exist anymore.


    I repeat. It is not only 'comprehension of the niche vocabulary' it is also comprehension of entire passages: both are  évidemment connected if you have drawn the consequence of your first phrase .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10275 - June 16, 2021, 10:05 AM

      I  do not want to die before i read that book and i don't want you to die before you finish  that book..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Thanks Yeez.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10276 - June 16, 2021, 12:18 PM

    Dear yeezevee

    I am resuming here 2 cases becouse they are exactly what altara is referring in answering mundi.

    Page 87, hud from 69 to 72.
    The issue here is related to the understanding of the passage.
    Abraham wife loughs, why?
    Reynolds first lists 6 different translations.
    Each translator has a different way to connect the lough of sarah with the sentence. They are confused how to render the passage becouse they have no idea if she is loughing "becouse of" "when" "after".

    Then reynolds shifts to commentaries snd lists muqatil, tabari, zamakhshari, ibn kathir, qummi. For each of them he lists how they report up to 12 possible reasons of this lough. Reynolds shows that the muffassirun are not able to provide an explanarion and they disagree on the conclusion.
    The possobilities provided by muffassirun grow over time and become wild.

    I checked myself what modern sites provide and most of these disagreement are gone. Only one option is left.

    Finally Reynolds proposes a simple solution just by referring to the original biblical text and explaining that the author of the trxt steuctured the verses in a specific way to accomodate the rhyme.

    Page 167 al-khaf, 18 4.
    Reynolds here checks the word ar-raquim.
    Again he shows translations and that most translators prefer to not translate the word becouse they have no idea what it is.
    He shifts to muffassirun and again he shows the same 5 of above and how they are all unable to explain what ar-raquim means.
    The mufassirun try phililogy or their knowledge of history or geography and they propose multiple solutions.
    Even the reports they mention again show that there is no record of this word before.
    Reynolds picks up the original seven sleepers story and solves the issue (a tablet).

    Again i checked midern quranic commentary sites and this confusion is gone in english.


    These 2 examples (out of 12) are exactly what altara means.

    Muffassirun have no idea of hapax legomenon meanings and they miss whole passages.
    The reason us that by the time they live they still can understand the rasm becouse it is the same arabic root they speak, but they are disconnected from the mind of the individual who wrote the text. They miss foreign vocabulary, they miss full sentences.

    This exactly what made me realize that islam is not historical.

    If I can read a text which is composed in my motherlanguage easily and i miss exactly those passages who are intellecrually and historically and geographically related to the specificity of the individual, it means that nobody helped me there.
    No tradition was passed down.
    They guess where they think to understand and they are lost when the tradition should have been there.

    Write a love letter to your doughter or wife or mum.

    You use your specific intimate language.

    If that letter goes in the hands of the stranger, what would he understand?

    If you wife explains your doughter and your doughter to your granddoughter the secret language, you have a clear, unique understanding among your 4 granddoughters.

    Here you see the opposite.

    About me.
    I agree with altara that islam is non historical and that the quran should be read setting aside Islam.

    About the rest i agree with altara that i have no training to take further step.
    But i have the capacity to connect dots

    I am searching for the dots.

    I have some, not enough.

    So i cannot say muhammad did not exist.
    I say the islamic muhammad for sure not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10277 - June 16, 2021, 05:48 PM

    The exegetes didnt understand specific niche vocabulary, but they did understand the common language. Indeed, no tradition was passed on and a lot is made up.

    Another example is qbl or qibla. Kerr has shown convincingly that it originally meant "tradition" (cfr Kabalah...).
    A specific Jewish word that either the exegetes didnt want to remember or know, or honestly didnt know. And used this qbl to connect to a specific prayer direction they were initiating.

    There was a break between the Quranic authors and the later exegetes. But there was no break in the Arabic language. What kept the Arabic so constant from the beginning of the Quran right up to the exegetes? The standardization Durie writes about?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10278 - June 16, 2021, 11:34 PM

    Quote
    There was a break between the Quranic authors and the later exegetes.


    Yes, that is why they did not comprehend. Therefore they have no relation( Mecca/kaba), contrary to what they say with these texts. They believe that what they believe is historically true. It is not: proof is their incomprehension of these texts.

    Quote
    But there was no break in the Arabic language.


    Who said that?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10279 - June 17, 2021, 10:46 AM

    Altara

    I am reading hoyland arab kings arab tribes. Paper 3335567
    Page 384.
    He discusses about the relationships between north arabic inscrptions and islamic accounts of pre islamic arabia.

    He notices that 20000 inscrptions report 136 arab groups.

    Out of these islamic sources get only 2 right.

    Hawala and tayyi are the exceptions.

    Here we see islamic historians listing arab groups which are nit supported by evidence.

    Do we see here a similar phenomena of islam  reading its own history?
    The ayyam protrays battles, if the people involved are fictional, it means that these historians are disconnected from their predecessors and did not preserve memory of past events.

     This a proof of a hegiograpgic process similar to the biigraphy of muhammad.

    A second point is the migration of ghassan from central west arabia to syria.
    This tribes lived in the area which will become mekka.

    Still in their inscriptions and rare monuments there is no memory of a religious and trade center of mekka.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10280 - June 17, 2021, 09:41 PM

    Altara

    I am reading hoyland arab kings arab tribes. Paper 3335567
    Page 384.
    He discusses about the relationships between north arabic inscrptions and islamic accounts of pre islamic arabia.

    He notices that 20000 inscrptions report 136 arab groups.

    Out of these islamic sources get only 2 right.

    Hawala and tayyi are the exceptions.....................

    are you talking about this publication by Robert  Hoyland   dear Spaghettib.....?

    https://www.academia.edu/3335567/Arab_Kings_Arab_Tribes_Arab_historical_memory

    and glad to see this response from you 
    Dear yeezevee

    I am resuming here 2 cases becouse they are exactly what altara is referring in answering mundi.

    Page 87, hud from 69 to 72.
    The issue here is related to the understanding of the passage.
    Abraham wife loughs, why?
    Reynolds first lists 6 different translations.
    Each translator has a different way to connect the lough of sarah with the sentence. They are confused how to render the passage becouse they have no idea if she is loughing "becouse of" "when" "after".

    Then reynolds shifts to commentaries snd lists muqatil, tabari, zamakhshari, ibn kathir, qummi. For each of them he lists how they report up to 12 possible reasons of this lough. Reynolds shows that the muffassirun are not able to provide an explanarion and they disagree on the conclusion.
    The possobilities provided by muffassirun grow over time and become wild.

    I checked myself what modern sites provide and most of these disagreement are gone. Only one option is left.

    Finally Reynolds proposes a simple solution just by referring to the original biblical text and explaining that the author of the trxt steuctured the verses in a specific way to accomodate the rhyme.

    Page 167 al-khaf, 18 4.
    Reynolds here checks the word ar-raquim.
    Again he shows translations and that most translators prefer to not translate the word becouse they have no idea what it is.
    He shifts to muffassirun and again he shows the same 5 of above and how they are all unable to explain what ar-raquim means.
    The mufassirun try phililogy or their knowledge of history or geography and they propose multiple solutions.
    Even the reports they mention again show that there is no record of this word before.
    Reynolds picks up the original seven sleepers story and solves the issue (a tablet).

    Again i checked midern quranic commentary sites and this confusion is gone in english.


    These 2 examples (out of 12) are exactly what altara means.

    Muffassirun have no idea of hapax legomenon meanings and they miss whole passages.
    The reason us that by the time they live they still can understand the rasm becouse it is the same arabic root they speak, but they are disconnected from the mind of the individual who wrote the text. They miss foreign vocabulary, they miss full sentences.
    This exactly what made me realize that islam is not historical.

    If I can read a text which is composed in my motherlanguage easily and i miss exactly those passages who are intellecrually and historically and geographically related to the specificity of the individual, it means that nobody helped me there.
    No tradition was passed down.
    They guess where they think to understand and they are lost when the tradition should have been there.

    Write a love letter to your doughter or wife or mum.

    You use your specific intimate language.

    If that letter goes in the hands of the stranger, what would he understand?

    If you wife explains your doughter and your doughter to your granddoughter the secret language, you have a clear, unique understanding among your 4 granddoughters.

    Here you see the opposite.

    About me.
    I agree with altara that islam is non historical and that the quran should be read setting aside Islam.

    About the rest i agree with altara that i have no training to take further step.
    But i have the capacity to connect dots

    I am searching for the dots.

    I have some, not enough.

    Quote
    So i cannot say muhammad did not exist.
    I say the islamic muhammad for sure not.



      what said above is interesting...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10281 - June 17, 2021, 11:12 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/DrJavadTHashmi/status/1401957501252386816
    Quote
    Modern secular scholarship can seem like an attack on the religion itself...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10282 - June 18, 2021, 08:29 AM

    Yes

    Yeezevee
    I was on mobile and could not link.

    Glad you appreciated the post.
    The argument presented by altara based on tafsirs is quite clear in Reynolds book.

    If you reed Reynolds book "allah, god in the quran" in the opening pages the authors openly says that there no specific reason to use islamic tradition to read the quran.

    I think Reynolds knows very well that islam is non historical.

    Papers like 40576544 and 42956572 by silverstein, or 17665836 by celik imply the same conclusion as of Reynolds.

    I understand the 700 pages of altara.
    In order to stick together a sufficient corpus of examples to show that tafsirs are structurally ignorant of the text is not easy considering how difficult is to push the field of islamic studies out of the tradition.

    And if altara is proposing a new historical context we need texts and examples where that language was living and kicking and could be understood. There is need of examples to provide a literary context where people structurally understood what ar-raquim is, what kalalat is, etc...

    If you look at zeca post were somebody with Dr. In the title uses subjectivity to shift the attention of the audience from technical questions to personal feelings, doeble job is required.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10283 - June 18, 2021, 01:21 PM

    Quote
    I think Reynolds knows very well that islam is non historical.


    Of course he knows it. However, his statute at Notre Dame where ecumenical stuff is its motto (and where he is personally engaged in it) prevent him to says what he thinks.

    Quote
    I understand the 700 pages of altara.
    In order to stick together a sufficient corpus of examples to show that tafsirs are structurally ignorant of the text is not easy considering how difficult is to push the field of islamic studies out of the tradition.
    And if altara is proposing a new historical context we need texts and examples where that language was living and kicking and could be understood. There is need of examples to provide a literary context where people structurally understood what ar-raquim is, what kalalat is, etc...


    That is why I will use what I posted here (adding the Spaghettti example of Reynolds). Free to the reader to do the (all) work. The other pages will give a new explanation of 'whom, where, when and  especially why' quranic texts have emerged in the 7th c. It's a rationale/logical explanation grounded by sources and the longue durée concept:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longue_dur%C3%A9e
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10284 - June 18, 2021, 02:11 PM

    Quote
    Do we see here a similar phenomena of islam  reading its own history?
    The ayyam protrays battles, if the people involved are fictional, it means that these historians are disconnected from their predecessors and did not preserve memory of past events.


    The Dhu Qar battle was impossible to remove from the memory of the Iraqi. Then it was islamisized to connect it to the Muslim narrative. More, it was the model the Badr battle.

    Quote
    Still in their inscriptions and rare monuments there is no memory of a religious and trade center of mekka.


    Mecca did not exist before Islam.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10285 - June 18, 2021, 06:55 PM

    Mecca did not exist before Islam.

    Mecca, Medina,  Muhammad,  Zamzam Water
      3Ms & Z  problem in Islam ... 


    So dear Altara in early 2000s when I was writing in to different forums such as

     http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9389.0;wap2  .... 
     http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5518  or
    this one    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16018.0

    I used to question existence of names Mecca and Muhammad (the names.. NOT Prophet of Islam) before the year 571 which Islamic historians often consider it as year of birth of Prophet Muhammad.

    you see in early 2000s Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos  did not sell this from Amazon jungle ., he only used to sell books.,   now Zam zam water is a very  popular item  and many whom I know order these bottles from Amazon  jungle



    So questions to you.,

    Q1.Was that town Medina existed before the year 532?(( apparently before that it was called Yatrib ))

    looking back in to this folder.. https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.0  on the important years in early Islam

    Quote
    year 571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.

    year 610:  The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.

    year621-622;   Prophet Migrates to Madina

    year 632:   Death of the Holy Prophet


    You say .... Mecca did not exist before Islam.  or Mecca.. Medina.. Muhammad.. zam zam water did not exist before Islam...

    What year you  think Islam started?? .. after the death of all those rightly guided caliphs??

     Did it start in the year  661??  the year  Ali was murdered . Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10286 - June 18, 2021, 08:58 PM

    Quote
    I used to question existence of names Mecca and Muhammad (the names.. NOT Prophet of Islam) before the year 571 which Islamic historians often consider it as year of birth of Prophet Muhammad.


    1/ No attestation of 'Mecca'. We have attesttaion of 'muhammad' but not dated (Cf. Dost thesis).

    Quote
    What year you  think Islam started?? .. after the death of all those rightly guided caliphs??

     Did it start in the year  661??  the year  Ali was murdered . Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.??


    After the defeat of Zubayr, Islam officially is instutionalized.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10287 - June 18, 2021, 09:12 PM

    Yes

    Yeezevee
    I was on mobile and could not link.

    Hello Spaghettib.. please take your time  to respond.. we do not need to write quick responses...

    Quote
    The argument presented by altara based on tafsirs is quite clear in Reynolds book.

    If you reed Reynolds book "allah, god in the quran" in the opening pages the authors openly says that there no specific reason to use islamic tradition to read the quran.

    well I LEAVE ALTARA ALONE ., I am reading him for a long time., and I fully agree with Reynolds book.,  Yes there is indeed NO SPECIFIC reason to consider Allah/god of Islam is any different from any other god of any faith...

    Quote
    I think Reynolds knows very well that islam is non historical.
    Papers like 40576544 and 42956572 by silverstein, or 17665836 by celik imply the same conclusion as of Reynolds.

    Really?.. Do these Islamic historians of west think that that islam is non historical.?  I am not sure about that dear Spaghettib., what does it means?? what is non-historical w.r.t Islam??   Islam is historical and it is as much historical as any religion/faith .. The only difference is when its history started ..

    Quote
    For e..g

    Judaism started some say 5 or 6000 years ago so it has 6000 years of history...

    Christianity  started some say 2000 years ago so it has 2000 years of history...

    Islam   started some say 1500, 1400, or 1300 years ago so it has  that many years of history..

    Sikhism was founded/started some time in the mid 15th century  so  it has some 500 year history...
     
    The Baháʼí Faith  started by Baháʼu'lláh spme time in 1850  ,.. so it has some  150 years of history ..

    Mormonism started in AMRIKA some time in 1830s.. so it has some 170 years of history


    well I can go on list all faiths/religion.. anyways .. SO ISLAM DOES HAVE ITS OWN HISTORY., the question may be when it started and who started it?

    Quote
    I understand the 700 pages of altara.
    In order to stick together a sufficient corpus of examples to show that tafsirs are structurally ignorant of the text is not easy considering how difficult is to push the field of islamic studies out of the tradition.

    And if altara is proposing a new historical context we need texts and examples where that language was living and kicking and could be understood. There is need of examples to provide a literary context where people structurally understood what ar-raquim is, what kalalat is, etc...

    well I leave Altara alone.. he is making everything upside down in Islam...

     
    Quote
    If you look at zeca post were somebody with Dr. In the title uses subjectivity to shift the attention of the audience from technical questions to personal feelings, double  job is required.


    True.. I absolutely agree with you there.,

    when Personal feelings enters in to historian mind THEN OBJCETIVITY GOES OUT OF THE WINDOW .. he can not be true historian

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10288 - June 18, 2021, 09:52 PM

    1/ No attestation of 'Mecca'. We have attesttaion of 'muhammad' but not dated (Cf. Dost thesis).


    PUTTING ASIDE ISLAMIC HISTORY FROM NARRATIVE STORIES.,   No attestation of 'Mecca'. is OK.,  A small town might have been there but that was NOT a popular town and  NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM.. Where as the word "Muhammad " was a popular additive to Arabic name as an adjective being a "Praise worthy person" in the town...., So that word  ...."Muhammad".... might  have been around Arabian folks even in 1st century

    Quote
    After the defeat of Zubayr, Islam officially is instutionalized.

    what year was that? and what happened to that guy Zubayr??

    and Are you talking about  Az-Zubayr ibn Al-Awam   or  Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr??

    a). Az-Zubayr ibn Al-Awam (  594–656) was a cousin and companion of the Islamic prophet Muhammad and one of the first converts to Islam.

    b). Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr  (May 624 – October/November 692) was the leader of a caliphate based in Mecca that rivaled the Umayyads from 683 until his death.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10289 - June 18, 2021, 10:12 PM

     Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr .
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