Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Today at 07:35 PM

Muslim family in Canada k...
Today at 05:21 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
Yesterday at 07:55 PM

New Britain
Yesterday at 04:35 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
Yesterday at 11:18 AM

dissertation research pro...
June 11, 2021, 10:29 PM

Gaza assault
June 10, 2021, 10:44 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
June 10, 2021, 10:31 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
June 09, 2021, 02:43 AM

The essence of the facts
by akay
June 08, 2021, 06:43 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
June 06, 2021, 01:06 PM

Pi a new digital crypto c...
by asif
June 04, 2021, 09:27 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 751056 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 337 338 339340 341 342 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10140 - April 17, 2021, 08:38 AM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AnthonyQurayshi/status/1382458602745565184
    Quote
    Great paper building on previous research on the San'a Palimpsest. It seems like the inferior text was indeed a professional, complete Quran. The surah order reconstruction in this paper is also fascinating. Worth a read.


    Behind a paywall though
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10141 - April 17, 2021, 09:51 AM

    ..................... nuggets from his post as pointers................

    so on those nuggets and origins of Quran..

    Quote
    1). to the producer of the Qur'an, these figures beginning the first "historical" synoptic (Mecca/Kaba) accounts concerning the reason for the existence of the Qur'anic corpus at the end of the 7th century, narratives that will be enriched over time.

    2). The Quran is a corpus. This term implies (for me...) a different approach from the ones of Dye, Segovia, etc. For me, it is intrinsically a corpus wanted as this (114 chapters) by its author(s): separated texts not destined to be assembled as a codex/book with an order which, later,  have been lost.

    3).  What Dye, Segovia, etc., say,  is that it is an assemblage of layer after layer of scripture which give at the end the Quran. Which people did that? Dye is unable to respond apart to give its origin to the frame Mecca/Kaba but layers were added after 632.

    4). As I consider that the corpus is older than the 7th c.,  The modifications which could have taken place are normal and (mainly) due to the decay of the papyri which were written in the second part of the 6 th c.

    5). I consider that the Sanaa palimpsest is an example of that: a different order of the sura, words replacing Uthmanic Vulgate words with the help of the context: that these changes (that one sees in the palimpsest)  have been made collectively is possible. But a unique literati could have did it alone.

    dear Altara In  those  statements.,  ., Are you not suggesting or assuming 

    " that there was a PUBLISHED/ WRITTEN document/s  in some other language very similar to present book  WHICH YOU & OTHERS CALL IT AS "CORPUS QURAN"  WRITTEN BY SO CALLED TEMPLAR LITERATI way before birth or death of Prophet of  Islam ((April 22, 570 AD -  June  8 632 "  and this so-called Corpus document was lost??

    You  also seem to suggest that this so-called Quran corpus is much older   and was in different language than these  early Quran manuscripts  such as Sana manuscript   ..

    did I get that right from your statements ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10142 - April 17, 2021, 10:53 AM

    Quote
    It seems like the inferior text was indeed a professional, complete Quran.


    Do not surprise me: it was a "Quran". Later, it has been erased to be conform to the Uthmanic Vulgate like the majority (?) of the Quran(s) were. It could attest of the "destruction"  whom attest the Muslim narrative, meaning that all the Qurans which were not conform have been erased. As parchment was expensive, it is much more like this that it happened. Interestingly we have found only one palimpsest which attests that. But one can think that the other ms attesting of a rewriting have been destroyed later because they were old. We have a great chance to have found the Sanaa one : it is not surprising since puts in an attic old ms is a Jewish tradition and we know that Judaism was heavily present in Yemen. All is logical, and everything fits together.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10143 - April 17, 2021, 10:58 AM

    1). to the producer of the Qur'an, these figures beginning the first "historical" synoptic (Mecca/Kaba) accounts concerning the reason for the existence of the Qur'anic corpus at the end of the 7th century, narratives that will be enriched over time.

    2). The Quran is a corpus. This term implies (for me...) a different approach from the ones of Dye, Segovia, etc. For me, it is intrinsically a corpus wanted as this (114 chapters) by its author(s): separated texts not destined to be assembled as a codex/book with an order which, later,  have been lost.

    3).  What Dye, Segovia, etc., say,  is that it is an assemblage of layer after layer of scripture which give at the end the Quran. Which people did that? Dye is unable to respond apart to give its origin to the frame Mecca/Kaba but layers were added after 632.

    4). As I consider that the corpus is older than the 7th c.,  The modifications which could have taken place are normal and (mainly) due to the decay of the papyri which were written in the second part of the 6 th c.

    5). I consider that the Sanaa palimpsest is an example of that: a different order of the sura, words replacing Uthmanic Vulgate words with the help of the context: that these changes (that one sees in the palimpsest)  have been made collectively is possible. But a unique literati could have did it alone.

    Quote
    dear Altara In  those  statements.,  ., Are you not suggesting or assuming

    " that there was a PUBLISHED/ WRITTEN document/s  in some other language very similar to present book  WHICH YOU & OTHERS CALL IT AS "CORPUS QURAN"  WRITTEN BY SO CALLED TEMPLAR LITERATI way before birth or death of Prophet of  Islam ((April 22, 570 AD -  June  8 632 "  and this so-called Corpus document was lost??

    You  also seem to suggest that this so-called Quran corpus is much older   and was in different language than these  early Quran manuscripts  such as Sana manuscript   ..

    did I get that right from your statements ??


    Not at all.  For me, it is intrinsically a corpus (separated texts) in Arabic wanted as this (114 chapters separated) by its author(s) before the 7th c. (the "prophet" have not existed, as "Mecca" did not exist before Islam) : separated texts not destined to be assembled as a codex/book with an order which, later, have been lost.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10144 - April 17, 2021, 07:18 PM

    Quote
    3).  What Dye, Segovia, etc., say,  is that it is an assemblage of layer after layer of scripture which give at the end the Quran. Which people did that? Dye is unable to respond apart to give its origin to the frame Mecca/Kaba but layers were added after 632.

    4). As I consider that the corpus is older than the 7th c.,  The modifications which could have taken place are normal and (mainly) due to the decay of the papyri which were written in the second part of the 6 th c.


    The dating of the extant manuscripts becomes ultra-important.
    Cellard has shown that Sanaa-lower was already a practically complete Quran. Sadeghi before her showed that the content of Sanaa lower was too similar to the archetype (Uthmanic) and too divergent from it to respectively be an oral separate version of the Quran (M's words) or an just spelling mistakes from the archetype.

    We know how early the Carbondating of the parchment is. Islamic awareness has a nice summary. Sanaa lower shows already a steady tradition of copying the Quran, it does not seem to be a first draft.

    So we have the situation that around 630 different versions of the Quran were circulating. It takes time to come to this level of canonisation and transmitting tradition. Dye wanting to add layers post 630 doesnt seem tenable to me. I think you are right Atlara, the origins f the Quran  are earlier.

    But how do we insert this earlier composition in the Mecca tradition? (Dye's problem) We can't.
    In 630 Mohammed just reached Aila. No way that this Quranic tradition including the copying tradition developed isolated in Arabia Deserta.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10145 - April 17, 2021, 11:04 PM

    The dating of the extant manuscripts becomes ultra-important.
    Cellard has shown that Sanaa-lower was already a practically complete Quran. Sadeghi before her showed that the content of Sanaa lower was too similar to the archetype (Uthmanic) and too divergent from it to respectively be an oral separate version of the Quran (M's words) or an just spelling mistakes from the archetype.


    1/ Yes it is. But as we cannot dates ink...
    2/Yes.

    Quote
    We know how early the Carbondating of the parchment is. Islamic awareness has a nice summary. Sanaa lower shows already a steady tradition of copying the Quran, it does not seem to be a first draft.

    Yes, not a first draft.

    Quote
    So we have the situation that around 630 different versions of the Quran were circulating. It takes time to come to this level of canonisation and transmitting tradition. Dye wanting to add layers post 630 doesnt seem tenable to me. I think you are right Atlara, the origins f the Quran  are earlier.

    Yes earlier. And there's specific reasons to that. (I will not ...)

    Quote
    But how do we insert this earlier composition in the Mecca tradition? (Dye's problem) We can't.


    We cannot. Dye is obliged (even if he does not believe it) due to the fact that he is an 'official' to state that the first layers are in Mecca/Kaba. It is even possible that he believes it. It allows him to say that layers were added after 632. Why not, but whom did that? He never write about that, he's not crazy, he speak of scribes, etc. But nothing clear (of course...) as he has no hints. All of this is conjectures, nothing else...
    Quote
    In 630 Mohammed just reached Aila. No way that this Quranic tradition including the copying tradition developed isolated in Arabia Deserta.


    The peninsula is vast.




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10146 - April 18, 2021, 09:24 AM

    Altara,

    Bonnet Emyard sees the Surahs 1 to 5 as a recount of the Arab participation in the Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem (and their expulsion). That sets us for at least this part of the Quran around 614. That is already more realistic to fit in with the material evidence of the c14 dating.

    It remains strange that the Persians are not mentioned once... of course they could have been removed as "a damnatio memoriae"... Wouldnt be the first time that happens...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10147 - April 18, 2021, 09:35 AM

    Bonnet Emyard, (like Beck) is (for me...) wrong. The Quran does not reflect 7th. events. It just made an allusion to Maarib flood and the Persians war. This last lasts since the 3rd c.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10148 - April 18, 2021, 10:16 AM

    Quote
    It just made an allusion to Maarib flood and the Persians war. This last lasts since the 3rd c.


    Where is the allusion to the Maarib flood?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10149 - April 18, 2021, 10:36 AM

    Where is the allusion to the Maarib flood?



    Well if you are smart like ISLAMIC IDIOTS you can take a verse from Quran make out any historical event (Natural or man made) you like .,  such as floods and wars dear mundi .. these fools in mosques take such verses and brain wash kids as Miracles of Quran ,  see this verse  27:33

    Quote
    Yusuf Ali: They said: "We are endued with strength, and given to vehement war: but the command is with thee; so consider what thou wilt command."

    Shakir:   They said: We are possessors of strength and possessors of mighty prowess, and the command is yours, therefore see what you will command.

    Pickthall:   They said: We are lords of might and lords of great prowess, but it is for thee to command; so consider what thou wilt command.

    Mohsin Khan:   They said: "We have great strength, and great ability for war, but it is for you to command: so think over what you will command."

    Saheeh:   They said, "We are men of strength and of great military might, but the command is yours, so see what you will command."


    from such translations and making Quran as word of Allah/God... you can get the meaning what you like wars or/and floods...  that is not a big deal to get such  allusions out of some Quran verses..

    but your earlier  post and Altara comment on it is very important and very much neglected in Academic circles ..  Many of these professors of Islamic history are as much foolish as these  mosques preaching idiots when  it come to analyzing Quran and history/origins of Quran/Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10150 - April 18, 2021, 10:39 AM

    Yeez,

    I know you can make out of a Quranic verse whatever you want. It surprises me that Altara goes aalong with this Maarib thing. From there my question, maybe he has a good reason.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10151 - April 18, 2021, 10:44 AM

    Yeez,

    I know you can make out of a Quranic verse whatever you want. It surprises me that Altara goes aalong with this Maarib thing. From there my question, maybe he has a good reason.

     No..No.. I don't think Altara making it as Maarib thing.,  He says IT IS AN ALLUSION

    It means Quran has an expressions designed to call something  without mentioning it explicitly;  an expression of an indirect way of saying or passing reference.  ..

    that is all what it is .. you make your meaning and he makes his meaning and I make my meaning  Cheesy Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10152 - April 18, 2021, 02:08 PM

    Where is the allusion to the Maarib flood?


    Q 34,15-16.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10153 - April 18, 2021, 02:30 PM

    Q34:15-16

    Yes, that seems to be at least a memory to the Maarib dam break. The Quranic author(s) seem to have a Yemeni link, so that passage could have been included at a certain time. I dont see how this is an argument against the 614 narrative of B-E?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10154 - April 18, 2021, 07:16 PM

    Q 34:15-16

    The Quranic author(s) seem to have a Yemeni link,

     

    Yes.

    Quote
    so that passage could have been included at a certain time.


    Anytime.
    French wiki :

    Despite the reinforcement and enlargement works, the dam broke several times, as in 449, 450, 542 and 548, increasing the cost of maintenance and repair. Its last failure occurred around 570 or 575. The lake emptied completely, the irrigation systems were no longer fed and the population left the region, causing the fall of the Himyar kingdom.


    Quote
    I dont see how this is an argument against the 614 narrative of B-E?


    B-E?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10155 - April 18, 2021, 07:41 PM

    B-E = Bonnet-Emyard
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10156 - April 18, 2021, 07:43 PM

    Quote
    Its last failure occurred around 570 or 575. The lake emptied completely, the irrigation systems were no longer fed and the population left the region, causing the fall of the Himyar kingdom.


    Are you implying there might have been an emigration North due to the loss of opportunities in the South by the break of the dam?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10157 - April 19, 2021, 09:43 AM

    Yes. Academia is your friend.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10158 - April 20, 2021, 10:57 AM

    MVP
    The Readers of Basra
    https://www.academia.edu/46957044/The_Readers_of_Basra
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10159 - May 06, 2021, 11:28 PM

    Rami Tannous -  Negotiating the Nativity in Late Antiquity: The Qur’ān’s Rereading of Mary’s Preparation for the Conception of Jesus

    https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/95929/1/Tannous_Rami_201906_PhD_thesis.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10160 - May 08, 2021, 12:37 AM

    A good summary of the borrowings from Late Antique literature mainly Christians.
    What does mean rereading. Why it emerges, what is its function in the Quranic economy? Is there even a Quranic economy? to whom these rereading are addressed? All this questions are not addressed. It is a good introduction. Now I wait for the rest. The hard rest.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10161 - May 08, 2021, 12:22 PM

    The Qur'anic Manuscripts  from London Islam...

    well in these modern times internet raging in the every corner of the globe, we have different Islams and different way of reading Qurans from different cultures and different countries  ., In fact I consider ., not only different way of  reading Quran., but it appears we had DIFFERENT QURANS TO START WITH.,  

    anyway,  that link is from   justislam.com   and it is from  London Islam  which is different from Turkish Islam., and which is different from Saudi Islam.,  and  that  is different from Islam of Iran and  of course  Islam of Pakistan is special... very very special ..

    that  link  has some 120 pages pdf file and it says  to start with
    Quote
    There has been a polemic going on that the Qur'an does not have manuscripts from the first century of hijra. However, this is not true. Many fragments of early Qur'anic manuscripts were shown by Orientalists notably Nabia Abbott in her work The Rise of  the North Arabic script and its Kur'anic development, with a full description of the  Kur'an manuscripts in the Oriental Institute (1939, University of Chicago Press).

    There she discusses some of the Quranic manuscripts, dated from second half of the first century hijra onwards, at the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago. The aim of this page is to highlight some of the early Qur'anic manuscripts to refute the claim that the Qur'an lacks manuscripts from the first century of hijra.

    The dig at the Great Mosque in San‘a', Yemen, had found a large number of manuscripts of the Qur'an dating from first century of hijra. The date of building the Great Mosque in San‘a' goes back to 6th year of hijra when the Prophet Muhammad entrusted one of his companions to build a mosque.

     The mosque was extended and enlarged by Islamic rulers from time to time. In 1385 H/1965 CE heavy rains fell on San‘a'. The Great Mosque was affected and the ceiling in the north west corner was damaged. During the survey, the workers discovered a large vault full of parchment and paper manuscripts of both the Qur'an and non-Qur'anic material.

    well let me read that LONDON ISLAM manuscript carefully and I say on these highlighted words from it
    Quote
     There has been a polemic going on that the Qur'an does not have manuscripts from the first century of hijra.

    I think that fellow got it wrong ., I say ., ......part of Quran was MUCH MUCH OLDER THAN that the first century of hijra...... well let me quickly read over that 120 pages pdf file on early Quran manuscripts

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10162 - May 08, 2021, 03:28 PM

    Diversity and Rabbinization: Jewish Texts and Societies between 400 and 1000 CE

    https://www.openbookpublishers.com/product/1209
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10163 - May 08, 2021, 04:39 PM

    Diversity and Rabbinization: Jewish Texts and Societies between 400 and 1000 CE

    https://www.openbookpublishers.com/product/1209

    Hello Altara ... loooong time no see .. how are you doing?     I am still curious about your book.,   may I ask you few questions?? please don't answer if you do not like the questions..

    How far are you to reach the end??

    Any date of its publication?

    what is its title?

    How many chapters does it have ?

    and  how big is that book going to be?? I mean how much it weighs?? 

    let us say in comparison with the books at this link  https://al-furqan.com/pdf-catalogue-download/?pdf-catalog=3273

    for e.g in that catalogue here is a book  SKU: 101100., That deals with Imām of Madinah and it  is regarded as one of the most renowned explanatory texts of alMuwaṭṭa’—magna opus of Mālik b. Anas al-Aṣbaḥī al-Madānī, the pre-eminent  Imām of Madinah., its title is
    Quote
    AL-TAMHĪD LIMĀ FĪ AL-MUWAṬṬAʾ MIN AL-MAʿĀNĪ ALASĀNĪD
    Weight 18 kg
    Dimensions 24 × 17 × 51 cm
    Edition 1
    Format Hardback
    ISBN-13 9781788147316
    Language Arabic
    Pages 9971


    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10164 - May 08, 2021, 09:00 PM

    Hahaha!
    0/ The book will be in French
    1/ Some years
    2/  Nope.
    3/4/ It has for now 398 132 words
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10165 - May 08, 2021, 10:42 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1391139638245482503
    Quote
    I'm always conflicted about the question of normalizing spelling in text editions. @bdaiwi_historia is right that this is standard practice for Classical Arabic text editions, but for linguists, this practice erases or distorts the history of a language, including Arabic.

    Quote
    Now, I do understand the uses of normalized spellings. Not everyone is coming at these texts as linguists/philologists, and having all of these texts rendered in a general standardized way for everything is of tremendous use for accessibility to a very broad audience...

    But it is important to realize what we are losing in the process. Much of the myths about a standard, unchanging standard Classical language from the beginning of Islam until today stem from the destructive way in which any feature of interest is stamped out of editions.

    Quote
    I don't know what the answer is, but I'll finish with a final thought. Quranic orthography is *very* different from normative Classical Arabic orthography, and obviously something of a transition happened between the earliest period and the Classical tradition.

    This transition is totally erased in the Classical manuscript editions due to normalization...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10166 - May 09, 2021, 10:11 AM

    North Arabian Features in the Nabataean Aramaic Inscriptions from Madāʾin Ṣāliḥ: A Contact-Linguistic Analysis
    https://www.academia.edu/35108548/North_Arabian_Features_in_the_Nabataean_Aramaic_Inscriptions_from_Mada_%CA%BEin_S_a_lih_A_Contact_Linguistic_Analysis
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10167 - May 09, 2021, 11:24 AM

    Hahaha!
    0/ The book will be in French
    1/ Some years
    2/  Nope.
    3/4/ It has for now 398 132 words


    well   398 132 words ... that is close 700 pages .... is it not enough for a book??   and why only in  French?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10168 - May 09, 2021, 08:07 PM

    1/500/700 depends.
    2/Not enough: all has to be clearly explained
    3/Because it is much more precise/accurate/exact /strict than English.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10169 - May 10, 2021, 04:15 PM

    Podcast: https://barakat.org/latest-news/robert-hoyland-revealing-arabia/
    Quote
    Professor Robert Hoyland takes us on a journey through time to discover the ancient Arabian Peninsula, evidencing a much more multi-cultural and cosmopolitan world than what it is often imagined.

  • Previous page 1 ... 337 338 339340 341 342 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »