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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10110 - April 06, 2021, 07:46 PM

    page 60, expedition of madikarib yafuk over the euphratees, year 521


    Thanks:"It is clear that the expedition had no significant results".p 62. Moreover this king was Christian: "The Syriac accounts of the Christian massacre of Nagrān report that this king:

    put on the throne of Ḥimyar by the Aksūmites, was
    a Christian. During his visit to Ma᾿sal, dated to June 521, Ma῾dīkarib
    ... established and published this text at Ma᾿salum Gumḥān (sic) on his
    return from an expedition in the ῾Irāq of Kūta᾿ because the Arabs in revolt
    had called him when Mudhdhirum waged war against them; he campaigned
    with his communes Saba᾿, Ḥimyarum, Raḥbatān, Ḥaḍramawt, and Yamna,
    with his Arabs Kiddat and Madh|ḥi[g]um and with the banū Th a῾labat and
    Mu(ḍa)r. He campaigned [in the mon]th of dhu-qay[ẓā]n 631


    Quote
    "Your have not finished with Yemen: continue to work."
    any specific author to suggest?


    Continue with Robin, do not accept his interpretations, look at the events he recounts.  One time you have found an event rather curious, in regard to the general time of the 4,5,6th c., work on it deeply and come back to expose it in detail here.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10111 - April 06, 2021, 08:55 PM

    what ?? each one??   what does  that mean??.,  How do those verses support mundi points?? 
    Each one.

    well  let me rephrase  the questions ..
    Quote
    mundi 1). I don't think the new Jewish sect necessarily needs to be supported by an older tradition. The Quranic innovation could have been thought of by a single person or a small group of persons on the spot..

    Do those four or five verses give an indication  that the Quranic innovation could have been thought of by a single person or a small group of persons on the spot??  ... YES OR NO??
    Quote
    mundi 2). New ideas and new religions get invented all the time. I think Judaism was much more diverse than is generally believed. Look at the Synagogues excavated in Tiberias and its neighborhoods. Tiberias is supposed to be the centre of Rabbinic Judaism in 5-6-7th C. But the floors of the excavated synagogues are full of depictions of Sol Invictus, complete with the 4 horses and the holy stone.

    what are those 4 verses have to do with the above comment of mundi on Judaism ?? NOTHING..  and is mundi right  in saying  Judaism was much more diverse than is generally believed.??
    Quote
    mundi 3).  So why not in a place with less centralized control, a new kind of Judaism developed, including Jesus as a side figure. There does not need to be a gradual development to get to this new idea. One man with a lot of imagination is enough.

    Is Islam new kind of Judaism Jesus being a side figure?? was Islam  developed by one man with a lot of imagination??
    Quote
    mundi 4). Lets say today I start a new form of Christianity with the second coming of Christ and Mohammed as a side figure. I get a rich mecenas with a few billions to make me a website and recruit people with gift vouchers. I rant against the existing Christians and call them the things the Quran calls the Jews. Doesnt take generations. Just 1 person with a "good" idea, another one to finance the lot and then some luck.

    So do you think Islam comes out of Just 1 person with a "good" idea with some one to finance the lot and then some luck.??

    Now answer me dear Altara...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10112 - April 07, 2021, 09:43 AM

    Quote
    mundi 1). I don't think the new Jewish sect necessarily needs to be supported by an older tradition. The Quranic innovation could have been thought of by a single person or a small group of persons on the spot..
    Do those four or five verses give an indication  that the Quranic innovation could have been thought of by a single person or a small group of persons on the spot??  … YES OR NO??


    Those four or five verses have no relation with your question.

    Quote
    mundi 2). New ideas and new religions get invented all the time. I think Judaism was much more diverse than is generally believed. Look at the Synagogues excavated in Tiberias and its neighborhoods. Tiberias is supposed to be the centre of Rabbinic Judaism in 5-6-7th C. But the floors of the excavated synagogues are full of depictions of Sol Invictus, complete with the 4 horses and the holy stone.
    what are those 4 verses have to do with the above comment of mundi on Judaism ?? NOTHING..  and is mundi right  in saying  Judaism was much more diverse than is generally believed.??


    1/ Ask Mundi if he got it.
    2/ I've already responded.

    Quote
    Is Islam new kind of Judaism Jesus being a side figure?? was Islam developed by one man with a lot of imagination?? So do you think Islam comes out of Just 1 person with a "good" idea with some one to finance the lot and


    1/The question is: how a "kind of Judaism" can accept a figure who is boiling in Hell for the mainstream community. Why Jesus is here (Quran)? Because the readers are Christians, his presence is then mandatory. What does the Quran do to Jesus? It lowers him. Why it lowers him?
    2/That is not my topic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10113 - April 07, 2021, 08:10 PM

    1) Judaism accepted Sol Invictus in its Synagogues, why not Jesus if that would help to win over some individuals (maybe with money?)

    2) Mainstream community is not necessarily the same as the community whose books (Rabbinic Judaism) came down to us. Daily life for mainstream Judaism might have been very different from the books that some read and kept.

    3) I doubt there was broad preaching to the community. Just a small group that was convinced of its mission. Look at the early mosques (eg in Hawara). Could contain max 10 people if squeezed in very tightly...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10114 - April 07, 2021, 11:10 PM

    Quote
    1) Judaism accepted Sol Invictus in its Synagogues, why not Jesus if that would help to win over some individuals (maybe with money?)



    1/ Where, dates, references? In Palestine in the 2nd c. why not. But Judaism is not in Palestine anymore (except Tiberias) since 135. It is in Iraq. And I'm not really sure that Sol Invictus was in Iraq synagogues.
    It is no longer from the Christian side that you reflect (Jewish Christianity) as we have no sources since Epiphanius (d.403) but from the Jewish side (Jews who would accept Jesus in the divine economy). 1/ It is structurally the Gallez theory, 2/ Here, we have no sources at all. It is then conjectures without sources.
    Quote
    2) Mainstream community is not necessarily the same as the community whose books (Rabbinic Judaism) came down to us. Daily life for mainstream Judaism might have been very different from the books that some read and kept.


    You're right. But the Rabbis used to talk about heresy in Palestine until the 2nd/3rd c. (minim, etc.) After, they kept silent. Especially in Iraq.  My thought is if some had accepted Jesus one way or another, there should have been some allusions somewhere. There is nothing in a vast rabbinic literature in Iraq and Palestine after the 2nd c.

    Quote
    3) I doubt there was broad preaching to the community. Just a small group that was convinced of its mission. Look at the early mosques (eg in Hawara). Could contain max 10 people if squeezed in very tightly...


    Well... a small group preaching to Arabs? It resemble to the Gallez theory.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10115 - April 08, 2021, 11:27 AM

    Continue with Robin, do not accept his interpretations, look at the events he recounts.  One time you have found an event rather curious, in regard to the general time of the 4,5,6th c., work on it deeply and come back to expose it in detail here.


    I am following your suggestions.
    I  noticed this.

    Inscription ja 1028

    Attributed to sharah il yaqbul dhu yazan
    This inscription supposed to be during the siege of najran.
    Robin says these people converted to Judaism and supported king yusuf against the aksumites.
    Why, if this inscrption is jewish, the authors at the very end conclude by thanking rahmanan (ok the monotheistic god of hymiar) is a secondary PRAISED ONE mentioned?

    The only one god is associated with a second individual (only one, so not jesus) who has the dignity to be set following god.
    In abraham inscription we have the messiah, in kaleb inscription we have kristos.
    They both are christians.
    Here we have a praised one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10116 - April 08, 2021, 11:33 AM

    And i just checked that this inscription is referred by kerr to
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10117 - April 08, 2021, 12:09 PM

    Those four or five verses have no relation with your question.

    what.... then why did you post those four verses   as a response to mundi post??here?

    what purpose did those verses serve ??  Altara you are hiding .. hiding stuff.. PUBL:ISH IT ....
    Quote
    1/ Ask Mundi if he got it.
    2/ I've already responded.

    1/The question is: how a "kind of Judaism" can accept a figure who is boiling in Hell for the mainstream community. Why Jesus is here (Quran)? Because the readers are Christians, his presence is then mandatory. What does the Quran do to Jesus? It lowers him. Why it lowers him?
    2/That is not my topic.

    well  your answer  .,    .....Those four or five verses have no relation with MY QUESTIONS......     hence rest of  your responses are nothing but evading the right answers to those questions   Cheesy

    So question to you., do you believe  THAT THERE WAS ABOSLUTLEY NO CHANCE OF HAVING ANY THING WRITTEN IN ARABIC LANGUAGE  IN ANY FORM BEFORE SANA MANSUCRIPTS..?? Assuming they were the first written  Quran manuscripts  before the book got published

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10118 - April 08, 2021, 12:18 PM

    1) Judaism accepted Sol Invictus in its Synagogues, why not Jesus if that would help to win over some individuals (maybe with money?)
     

    what proof do we have on that dear mundi?? 

    but even if some Synagogues accepted that sun god  for whatever was the reason ....  do you have any indication from Jewish scriptures( SO MANY BOOKS) that  some sun god is mentioned in them directly or indirectly??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10119 - April 08, 2021, 05:43 PM

    Altara:

    Synagogues with Sol Invictus go back as late as 5th C, who knows even later? It is inconvenient for Jewish scholars so I wouldnt be surprised that they really are later than discribed.

    We dont see that kind of heresy in churches, something weird is going on in the synagogues.

    https://synagogues.kinneret.ac.il/synagogues/beth-alpha/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10120 - April 08, 2021, 07:05 PM

    I am following your suggestions.


    Good.
    Quote
    I  noticed this.


    Well...
    Quote
    Inscription ja 1028

    Attributed to sharah il yaqbul dhu yazan
    This inscription supposed to be during the siege of najran.


    Yes.
    Quote
    Robin says these people converted to Judaism and supported king yusuf against the aksumites.


    More precisely he says elsewhere (Cf. « The peoples beyond the Arabian frontier in Late Antiquity : recent epigraphic discoveries and latest advances », édd. Dijkstra & Fisher, Inside and Out (Late Antique History and Religion,  Leuven (Peeters), 2014, pp. 33-79.), p.54  that :

    My hypothesis is that the new official religion was a monotheism based on Judaism. It is likely that the followers of this new religion subscribed to the ‘natural’ morality of the Noahide laws and adopted Jewish rules of life that did not contradict the traditional ways of living.


    Quote
    Why, if this inscrption is jewish, the authors at the very end conclude by thanking rahmanan (ok the monotheistic god of hymiar) is a secondary PRAISED ONE mentioned?The only one god is associated with a second individual (only one, so not jesus) who has the dignity to be set following god.


    Here the translation of JA 1028 by Robin:

    A été rédigé, écrite et exécuté au nom de Rahmanan la relation de Tamim dhu-Hadyat Seigneur des juifs par le Louangé.

    The relation of Tamim dhu-Hadyat Lord of the Jews by the Praised One was drafted, written and executed in the name of Rahmanan.

    Quote
    In abraham inscription we have the messiah, in kaleb inscription we have kristos.
    They both are christians. Here we have a praised one.


    Do you know that the praised one is in Arabic and in that text  b-Mhmd  ?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10121 - April 08, 2021, 07:09 PM

    Altara:

    Synagogues with Sol Invictus go back as late as 5th C, who knows even later? It is inconvenient for Jewish scholars so I would n't be surprised that they really are later than discribed.

    We dont see that kind of heresy in churches, something weird is going on in the synagogues.

    https://synagogues.kinneret.ac.il/synagogues/beth-alpha/


    you mean to say there was NO  Invictus in churches between 1st and 5th century??

    well let me also add this publication of Friedheim SOL INVICTUS IN THE SEVERUS SYNAGOGUE ATHAMMATH TIBERIAS, THE RABBIS, AND JEWISHSOCIETY: A DIFFERENT APPROACH

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10122 - April 08, 2021, 07:31 PM

    Yeez,

    As far as I know, there was indeed no Sol Invictus or any other clearly pagan gods in LA churches'mosaics.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10123 - April 08, 2021, 08:58 PM

    Yeez,

    As far as I know, there was indeed no Sol Invictus or any other clearly pagan gods in LA churches'mosaics.

    what actually do you mean by LA churches  dear mundi?? 

     we must realize here pagan gods  or  pagan symbolism may have been eliminated in OT and NT and in Quran.,  but the folks who were converted in to these faiths were pagans .. and they had those pagan temples and some of these place  may have been converted in to  synagogues .. churches or mosques  .. So many of these first generation or 2nd generation converts must have left such pagan faith symbols as well as  mosaics  in their prayer places ..  And these symbols may have been preasent in those times...... say......from 1st century to 5th century .,

      I WOULD NOT CONSIDER THAT AS BIG DEAL... and I can not see any connection with the  Sol Invictus  and origins of Islam or origins of Quran...

    well on that uncle and aunt wiki says

    Quote
    .........The idea that Christians chose to celebrate the birth of Jesus on 25 December because this was the date of an already existing festival of the Sol Invictus was expressed in an annotation to a manuscript of a work by 12th-century Syrian bishop Jacob Bar-Salibi. The scribe who added it wrote: "It was a custom of the Pagans to celebrate on the same 25 December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and revelries the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnised on that day.......


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10124 - April 09, 2021, 12:53 AM

    you mean to say there was NO  Invictus in churches between 1st and 5th century??

    well let me also add this publication of Friedheim SOL INVICTUS IN THE SEVERUS SYNAGOGUE ATHAMMATH TIBERIAS, THE RABBIS, AND JEWISHSOCIETY: A DIFFERENT APPROACH


    The image of Sol Invictus appears in the mosaic pavement of the synagogue in Hammath Tiberias that is dated to the late third or early fourth century C.E […] A study of the Tannaitic and Talmudic literature regarding the cult of the sun reveals that Palestinian rabbis presented this rite as a contemporaneous phenomenon that must be fought because of its despicable nature and, possibly, because of the cultural and social threat it posed to the Jews of the Land of Israel.

    That's what I said. No Iraki stuff. Only Palestinian until end of 3rd  c.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10125 - April 09, 2021, 09:27 AM


    More precisely he says elsewhere (Cf. « The peoples beyond the Arabian frontier in Late Antiquity : recent epigraphic discoveries and latest advances », édd. Dijkstra & Fisher, Inside and Out (Late Antique History and Religion,  Leuven (Peeters), 2014, pp. 33-79.), p.54  that :

    My hypothesis is that the new official religion was a monotheism based on Judaism. It is likely that the followers of this new religion subscribed to the ‘natural’ morality of the Noahide laws and adopted Jewish rules of life that did not contradict the traditional ways of living.


    Here the translation of JA 1028 by Robin:

    A été rédigé, écrite et exécuté au nom de Rahmanan la relation de Tamim dhu-Hadyat Seigneur des juifs par le Louangé.

    The relation of Tamim dhu-Hadyat Lord of the Jews by the Praised One was drafted, written and executed in the name of Rahmanan.

    Do you know that the praised one is in Arabic and in that text  b-Mhmd  ?




    1 i found the translation in hymiar, aksum and arabia deserts in late antiquity.
    Date is 2015.
    The above article is 2014.

    In the former robin ends up the translation in english

    "was composed, written, and carried out in the name of rahmanan the narration of tamim dhu-hadyat. Lord of the jews, with the Praised one."

    Martin kerr, mentioning iwona guida, translates with
    "Rb hd b-mhmd" with "der herr der juden, mit (?) (Der hilfe des?) Gepriesenen (muhammad)

    Gajda notices that mhdm can be rhbd one of many different god name or epithets.

    Kerr at the end suggests that this maybe later islamic interpretation may have constructed on this epithet or "arab messiah" the future prophet.


    This relation or narration of the tamim dhu-hadyat, made, carried out, composed by the praised one is a reference to the inscription.

    CSAI and noble just present tamim dhu hadyat as the author.
    And he writes this thanking the lord of the jews. Thanking the praised one.

    The article by robin has the picture of the inscription
    It is ancient sabaitic.

    Robin proposed other translations (see dasi.cnr.it)
    All around this.

    I do not see apart kerr any author giving relevance to this.

    But comparing the closure with all other inscriptions of jewish background before aksum christianized the hymiarites, nowhere is this "by the praised one" or "mit der hilfe des muhammaden" to find.

    The question is why the author needed to use that title and where it has been taken from.
    The hymiarite prince sharah must have agreed to fit that title there.

    The dhu yaz kings are in contact with other tribes and express fate in the jewish Lord.

    How robin says that these people follow nohahide laws is his opinion.
    What i noticed is that van syvers refers to the arabs in his article prophetology in the early umayyad arab empire, and he says that these arabs presented themselves are representing the old law.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10126 - April 09, 2021, 03:11 PM

    1 i found the translation in hymiar, aksum and arabia deserts in late antiquity.
    Date is 2015.
    The above article is 2014.

    In the former robin ends up the translation in english

    "was composed, written, and carried out in the name of rahmanan the narration of tamim dhu-hadyat. Lord of the jews, with the Praised one."


    hymiar, aksum and arabia deserts in late antiquity is a translated article: n.1: "Ch. 3 is translated by Martin Makinson"
    Robin has retaken his translation in French from 2008 (cf. JOSEPH, DERNIER ROI DE HIMYAR (DE 522 A 525, OU UNE DES ANNEES SUIVANTES, JERUSALEM STUDIES IN ARABIC AND ISLAM 34(2008)) :

    cette inscription (être protegee) contre tout auteur de dommage et de degradation, et
    Rahmanan Tres-Haut contre tout auteur de degradation... ... A été
    rédigée, écrite  et executée au nom de Rahmanan la relation de Tamim
    dhu-Hadyat. Seigneur des juifs. Par le Louangé

    The issue is that Makinson does not translate correctly French.

    Quote
    Martin kerr, mentioning iwona guida, translates with
    "Rb hd b-mhmd" with "der herr der juden, mit (?) (Der hilfe des?) Gepriesenen (muhammad)


    Yes.

    Quote
    Gajda notices that mhdm can be rhbd one of many different god name or epithets.


    Sure.

    Quote
    Kerr at the end suggests that this maybe later islamic interpretation may have constructed on this epithet or "arab messiah" the future prophet.
    This relation or narration of the tamim dhu-hadyat, made, carried out, composed by the praised one is a reference to the inscription.
    CSAI and noble just present tamim dhu hadyat as the author.
    And he writes this thanking the lord of the jews. Thanking the praised one.


    Quote
    The article by robin has the picture of the inscription It is ancient sabaitic. Robin proposed other translations (see dasi.cnr.it)
    All around this. I do not see apart kerr any author giving relevance to this.


    Same.

    Quote
    But comparing the closure with all other inscriptions of jewish background before aksum christianized the hymiarites, nowhere is this "by the praised one" or "mit der hilfe des muhammaden" to find.


    It's interesting because it is a non sectarian Jewish side inscription.

    Quote
    The question is why the author needed to use that title and where it has been taken from.
    The hymiarite prince sharah must have agreed to fit that title there. The dhu yaz kings are in contact with other tribes and express fate in the jewish Lord.


    1/Yes.
    2/Idem.
    3/ bis.


    Quote
    How robin says that these people follow nohahide laws is his opinion.


    No, a logical deduction.

    Quote
    What i noticed is that van syvers refers to the arabs in his article prophetology in the early umayyad arab empire, and he says that these arabs presented themselves are representing the old law.


    Can you quote it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10127 - April 09, 2021, 08:07 PM

    Quote
    Can you quote it?


    https://www.academia.edu/14393223/Christology_and_Prophetology_in_the_early_Umayyad_Arab_Empire

    pg 26, van syvers is commenting on bar pankaye. It seems that for him the arabs are supporters of the old law

    now we have a south arabian tribe, mentioning muhammad, close to Rahmanan, in a non sectarian millieu (we have nohahide arabs vs trinitarian Aksumite chrsitians).
    the inscription ja 1028 is not supported by a specific citiation of any text (like the aksumite used to do)

    the epithet mhmd is new, not attestend in standard jewish context and anomalous for a jewish inscription

    the inscription has no textual reference

    this is presumably between 521 and 523.
    if there is no textual reference, this leads to think that they had no text where to take from

    170 years later, bar pankaye still speaks of arabs, eastern, supporting the old law, but apparently having no religious doctrinal contention with the Nestorians
    but this is different from an arab group which goes to jeruslam in 634 and builds on top of the temple mount
    it should be possible to try to give an identity to the arab tribe who takes over jerusalem and follow its path backward

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10128 - April 10, 2021, 01:13 AM

    https://www.academia.edu/14393223/Christology_and_Prophetology_in_the_early_Umayyad_Arab_Empire

    pg 26, van syvers is commenting on bar pankaye. It seems that for him the arabs are supporters of the old law



    Possibly (but not surely...) the law of Moses revisited for Arabs :  in Yemen, Robin designates this as Noahidism Law.

    Quote
    now we have a south arabian tribe, mentioning muhammad, close to Rahmanan, in a non sectarian millieu (we have nohahide arabs vs trinitarian Aksumite chrsitians).
    the inscription ja 1028 is not supported by a specific citiation of any text (like the aksumite used to do)
    the epithet mhmd is new, not attestend in standard jewish context and anomalous for a jewish inscription
    the inscription has no textual reference


    Be careful!  JA1028 is not a 'Jewish' inscription, ie made by Jewish people,  it is Arab under Jewish Law. Yemeni Arabs are not Jews. They are Judaized as much as it is possible according to the Jewish Law, meaning that they are under the Nohahide Law (which have been invented in by  the Palestine (Tiberias) and Iraki Talmud-s.)

    Quote
    this is presumably between 521 and 523.
    if there is no textual reference, this leads to think that they had no text where to take from


    Book of Daniel, chapter 2. In Hebrew.

    Quote
    170 years later, bar pankaye still speaks of arabs, eastern, supporting the old law, but apparently having no religious doctrinal contention with the Nestorians

    Apparently.

    Quote
    but this is different from an arab group which goes to jeruslam in 634 and builds on top of the temple mountit should be possible to try to give an identity to the arab tribe who takes over jerusalem and follow its path backward


    Well... maybe, maybe not.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10129 - April 10, 2021, 08:13 AM

    Just a reflection.

    Liatening orwell book 1984, chapter 3.
    The protagonist is reflecting on progressive rewriting of the past made by ruling party.
    With memory vanishing within him and with the party extending the rewriting process back and back.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10130 - April 11, 2021, 12:56 PM

    Quote
    The protagonist is reflecting on progressive rewriting of the past made by ruling party.


     From this framework(Mecca/Kaba), the ninth century narrators tell the story, and present it, in good faith, as 'historical'. This is dictated to them from what they have understood of the Qur'an to give an explanation to its existence and discourse, as some of its allusions can be deduced in this sense that allow for the elaboration of multiple narratives (the "Constitution of Medina", the "visit of the Christians of Najrān", the "flight to Medina", etc). The Qur'anic discourse is presented as the 'book of God' given (finally!) to the Arabs. Even cryptic, God can only speak the truth deduced by his believers. There is therefore no manipulation or conspiracy on the part of the 9th century scholars. Because there is no conspiracy but a large-scale dissemination of belief without weakness towards seminal figures (who "arranged" their history for objective reasons), who will be bombarded with "Medinan" origin, and clothed with an indisputable aura because they explain having been close, from near or far, to the producer of the Qur'an, these figures beginning the first "historical" synoptic (Mecca/Kaba) accounts concerning the reason for the existence of the Qur'anic corpus at the end of the 7th century, narratives that will be enriched over time.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10131 - April 14, 2021, 10:48 PM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - Arabic rock inscriptions up to 750 CE

    https://www.academia.edu/44793341/Arabic_rock_inscriptions_up_to_750_CE_in_The_Umayyad_World_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10132 - April 15, 2021, 08:58 AM

    ............... to the producer of the Qur'an, these figures beginning the first "historical" synoptic (Mecca/Kaba) accounts concerning the reason for the existence of the Qur'anic corpus at the end of the 7th century, narratives that will be enriched over time................

    What actually is the meaning of this   "Qur'anic corpus"  that was allegedly  printed in the end of the 7th century  dear Altara?

    Does "Qur'anic corpus" mean each every word of every verse is printed  in its totality without any addition and substation in the same sequence of the present book that we see to day??     with its 114 chapters and  is  printed by the end of 7th century??

    or did folks change some verses and words here and there??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10133 - April 15, 2021, 11:11 AM

    Shoemaker-Jewish Christianity, Non-Trinitarianism, and the Beginnings of Islam
    https://www.academia.edu/46873396/Jewish_Christianity_Non_Trinitarianism_and_the_Beginnings_of_Islam
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10134 - April 15, 2021, 11:53 AM

    to the producer of the Qur'an, these figures beginning the first "historical" synoptic (Mecca/Kaba) accounts concerning the reason for the existence of the Qur'anic corpus at the end of the 7th century, narratives that will be enriched over time.

    What actually is the meaning of this   "Qur'anic corpus"  that was allegedly  printed in the end of the 7th century  dear Altara?

    Does "Qur'anic corpus" mean each every word of every verse is printed  in its totality without any addition and substation in the same sequence of the present book that we see to day??     with its 114 chapters and  is  printed by the end of 7th century??
    or did folks change some verses and words here and there??


    The Quran is a corpus. This term implies (for me...) a different approach from the ones of Dye, Segovia, etc. For me, it is intrinsically a corpus wanted as this (114 chapters) by its author(s): separated texts not destined to be assembled as a codex/book with an order which, later,  have been lost.  What Dye, Segovia, etc., say,  is that it is an assemblage of layer after layer of scripture which give at the end the Quran. Which people did that? Dye is unable to respond apart to give its origin to the frame Mecca/Kaba but layers were added after 632.
    As I consider that the corpus is older than the 7th c., the modifications which could have taken place are normal and (mainly) due to the decay of the papyri which were written in the second part of the 6 th c. I consider that the Sanaa palimpsest is an example of that: a different order of the sura, words replacing Uthmanic Vulgate words with the help of the context: that these changes (that one sees in the palimpsest)  have been made collectively is possible. But a unique literati could have did it alone.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10135 - April 15, 2021, 09:42 PM

    Sanaa Palimpsest:

    Even the lower text seems to have been copied from a written exemplar. Apparently one scribe took over from another one in the middle of a sentence. That only makes sense if there is a written master copy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8NmlbzZX5I&ab_channel=Th%C3%A9ologie.s-Universit%C3%A9deLorraine
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10136 - April 16, 2021, 09:12 AM

    Sanaa Palimpsest:

    Even the lower text seems to have been copied from a written exemplar. Apparently one scribe took over from another one in the middle of a sentence. That only makes sense if there is a written master copy.


    It is the case for all ms. All were copied from an exemplar. There is no copying from orality as states the Muslim narrative. But from literacy. The Quran is a written text, not oral proclamation.












  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10137 - April 16, 2021, 10:07 AM

    MVP :

    https://www.academia.edu/46885698/Copto_Arabica_The_Phonology_of_Early_Islamic_Arabic_Based_on_Coptic_Transcriptions?email_work_card=title

    One of the great challenges of understanding the linguistic history of Arabic
    in the early Islamic period is the highly defective spelling of early Arabic.
    It is ambiguous in terms of phonetic features such as the short vowels, the
    hamzah, and a general disagreement whether a written text is supposed to
    represent the vernacular or rather a form approximating Classical Arabic, or
    something in between, make it difficult to establish much of a baseline of
    expectations of the Arabic of this period.
    Historically, scholars interested in the history of Arabic have relied on
    the descriptions of the language by the Arab Grammarians who started their
    effort to standardize a high Arabic language around the end of the 8 th century.
    The form of Arabic they describe, however, is highly idealized, and
    certainly rather artificial
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10138 - April 16, 2021, 02:54 PM

    Maria Mavoudi - Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century

    https://www.academia.edu/1304550/Byzantium_and_the_Arabs_in_the_Sixth_Century
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10139 - April 16, 2021, 03:27 PM

    well as usual  Altara puts out the narration that appears to be close to real story of Quran but it frames many questions in the readers mind...  let me put the nuggets from his post as pointers..
    1). to the producer of the Qur'an, these figures beginning the first "historical" synoptic (Mecca/Kaba) accounts concerning the reason for the existence of the Qur'anic corpus at the end of the 7th century, narratives that will be enriched over time.

    2). The Quran is a corpus. This term implies (for me...) a different approach from the ones of Dye, Segovia, etc. For me, it is intrinsically a corpus wanted as this (114 chapters) by its author(s): separated texts not destined to be assembled as a codex/book with an order which, later,  have been lost.

    3).  What Dye, Segovia, etc., say,  is that it is an assemblage of layer after layer of scripture which give at the end the Quran. Which people did that? Dye is unable to respond apart to give its origin to the frame Mecca/Kaba but layers were added after 632.

    4). As I consider that the corpus is older than the 7th c.,  The modifications which could have taken place are normal and (mainly) due to the decay of the papyri which were written in the second part of the 6 th c.

    5). I consider that the Sanaa palimpsest is an example of that: a different order of the sura, words replacing Uthmanic Vulgate words with the help of the context: that these changes (that one sees in the palimpsest)  have been made collectively is possible. But a unique literati could have did it alone.

    1). It is the case for all ms. All were copied from an exemplar.

    2). There is no copying from orality as states the Muslim narrative. But from literacy. The Quran is a written text, not oral proclamation.


    well let me digest those nuggets and meanwhile let me read through this pub..

    Writing the Qur’ān Between the Lines: Marginal and Interlinear Notes in Selected Qur’ān Fragments from the Museum of Islamic Art, Qatar...Asma Hilali ...Jun 2020

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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