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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9960 - February 26, 2021, 04:43 PM

    Ahmad Al-Jallad - An Invocation to Jesus in a Safaitic Inscription?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=165&v=Pc6Rv8d63hE


    well I am still interested in  that YouTube talk this wonderful guy ..



    who searching deserts and stones around middle east and trying to rewrite the history., So the rock inscriptions around that Al Harrah desert and their  connection to Isa.. Jesus,, or ..Elsa, Esa, Essa, Isa, Eesa and Eesah.... whatever ., Off course the letters on those inscriptions  https://twitter.com/mattcrotts/status/1128350207173955591?s=20   are supposed to represent  "s1y" and apparently found in about 8 sites in Northern Arabia. ., That is All OK but this  "s1y" words is allegedly contains  Safaitic cognate to the Qur'anic ʿīsà. ( I WILL CERTAINLY NOT TAKE THAT ON ITS FACE VALUE)) and and the Safaitic script apparently used around the 1st century BCE to 4th century CE.

    So that is what I am interested in ., Does that really represent  "Isa".... Jesus of Quran?? Jesus Christ that we see in biblical stories or in Quran ?? .. or it is  just "s1y"  ??  that questions really bothers me.. so I am reading some stuff which let me share here.. Most of such stuff gets published in this journal Arabian Archaeology and Epigraphy

    1. Arabian Epigraphic Notes., On the uses of writing in ancient Arabia and the role of palaeography in studying them by M.C.A. Macdonald, University of Oxford

    2). Arabs, Arabias and Arabic before Late Antiquity by M.C.A. Macdonald Topoi. Orient-Occident  Année 2009  16-1  pp. 277-332

    3). PERSONAL NAMES IN THE NABATAEAN REALM A REVIEW ARTICLE by M.C.A. MACDONALD

    4). Recording Graffiti in the Black Desert: Past, Present, and Future   by Ali Al-Manaser
    Michael C A Macdonald   
     
    anyways that dr. Ali Al-Manaser did a lot of work in this area

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9961 - February 27, 2021, 10:22 AM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1365331728395620355
    Quote
    We know from early Arabic poetry and modern ethnography that bedouin made seasonal journeys with their livestock.

    But in all that I’ve read about Sūrat Quraysh, no-one has tried to connect this to the “journey of the winter and the summer” (رحلة الشتاء والصيف).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9962 - February 27, 2021, 11:33 AM

    Quote
    Thread: https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1365331728395620355
    Quote
    We know from early Arabic poetry and modern ethnography that bedouin made seasonal journeys with their livestock.

    But in all that I’ve read about Sūrat Quraysh, no-one has tried to connect this to the “journey of the winter and the summer” (رحلة الشتاء والصيف).

     

    Quote
    Of course, the modern scholars are being true to their medieval forebears. The consensus has always been that these were trading journeys.

    The debate instead has centred on the word īlāf (إيلاف), one popular interpretation being a ‘pact’ of non-aggression against trade caravans.

    Quote
    But the exegetes were very clearly guessing (albeit intelligently) about the meaning of īlāf, and their explanations of the summer and winter journey were wildly contradictory.

    It doesn’t seem to me unreasonable to step outside the exegetical tradition entirely at this point.

    Quote
    In the dry season the bedouin stayed close to permanent water sources where their clients worked the land, and in the wet season they followed the rains into the desert, grazing their livestock on the temporary pastures.

     
    Quote
    A common theme in early Arabic poetry is the departure of one’s beloved at the start of a new season, whether leaving for the rainy pastures or on the contrary going back to the watering holes. https://www.academia.edu/29269189/Seasonal_Poetics_The_Dry_Season_and_Autumn_Rains_among_Pre_Islamic_Najdi_and_Hijazi_Tribes

    Quote
    If Mecca was the summer station for Qurashī pastoralists, Sūrat Quraysh may be interpreted as a prayer of thanks to the god “who has fed them against hunger” by sending the rain, and who accepts devotion at his shrine on a seasonal basis.


    well all those twits are from Moris., but what is he trying to do there?? fishing to write a story from Quran and connect it to Mecca??  and add a publication to his curriculum vitae ??

    RUBBISH...... UTTER NONSENSE??  well let me add that 4 verses surah here

    Quote
    1.   For the protection of the Qureaish--

    2.   Their protection during their trading caravans in the winter and the summer--

    3.   So let them serve the Lord of this House

    4.   Who feeds them against hunger and gives them security against fear.

    why not think in simpler terms of that Persian  king  known as Cyrus the Great,  or his other name Cyrus the Elder    which we find In the Bible called as  Koresh (Hebrew: כורש‎). and that word came in to Quran in Arabic language in that four verses surah 106 as Qureaish??

    I think people throw common sense out of the window and start using their QUANUM SENSE when it comes to thinking about these so-called scriptures'

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9963 - February 27, 2021, 12:29 PM

    Quote
    why not think in simpler terms of that Persian  king  known as Cyrus the Great,  or his other name Cyrus the Elder    which we find In the Bible called as  Koresh (Hebrew: כורש‎).


    Of course. And who is Cyrus for the Bible? The Messiah. What is the Messiah : the one who free Israel. Cyrus has allowed the Jews to leave Iraq to Israel. He has freed them.

    Koresh/כורש/Quraysh/‎قريش designates the Persian King. and Iraq/Persia in general. The use of this word point out the Iraqi tropism of the emergence of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9964 - February 27, 2021, 02:51 PM

    Of course. And who is Cyrus for the Bible? The Messiah. What is the Messiah : the one who free Israel. Cyrus has allowed the Jews to leave Iraq to Israel. He has freed them.

    Koresh/כורש/Quraysh/‎قريش designates the Persian King. and Iraq/Persia in general. The use of this word point out the Iraqi tropism of the emergence of the Quran.

     
    two questions to you dear Altara..

    1). Why  very smart and intelligent well educated university graduates /faculties DO NOT USE COMMONSENSE when it comes to analyzing these so-called scriptural statement and even history of the human race??  Cheesy

    2). this is about the language in that post of dr. Ahmad Al-Jallad  field work in that Al Harrah desert  the Safaitic script on rocks..

    the question how old is this  language??  w,r,t ancient history time line  e.g. this wiki link  athttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_century_BC


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9965 - February 28, 2021, 09:47 AM

    Sean Anthony - The Historical Muhammad
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdaxAXEdx04&feature=youtu.be
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9966 - February 28, 2021, 10:27 AM


    two questions to you dear Altara..

    1). Why  very smart and intelligent well educated university graduates /faculties DO NOT USE COMMONSENSE when it comes to analyzing these so-called scriptural statement and even history of the human race??  Cheesy


    1/Humanity is a specie not a race.
    2/"very smart and intelligent well educated university graduates /faculties DO NOT USE COMMONSENSE " because since the XIXth c. (Nöldeke)they believe the master narrative Mecca/Kaba/Abu Sufyan to be the historical truth of the emergence of the Quran.
    2). this is about the language in that post of dr. Ahmad Al-Jallad  field work in that Al Harrah desert  the Safaitic script on rocks..
    the question how old is this  language??  w,r,t ancient history time line  e.g. this wiki link  athttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_century_BC


    Well, we have only conjectures, but it is before Islam and before the 6th c.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9967 - February 28, 2021, 11:59 AM



    How a scholar before a Muslim could say that "Muhammad" has never existed?  He could not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9968 - February 28, 2021, 02:27 PM

    Quote

    How a scholar before a Muslim could say that "Muhammad" has never existed? He could not.


    that Q&A session of Sean Anthony   at the end  of the tube is a perfect example of how to evade dodge critical  questions on Prophet of Islam.....

    1. Evade the question with some published reference material  or Enlist the moderator to  help out with Q

    2).  Use  some sort of connective response to the question and  change the subject.

    3), Rephrase the question and answer it so it evades original question

    4), Answer ambiguously and deflect the question with a laugh and a joke

    well there are many ways

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9969 - February 28, 2021, 02:37 PM

    1/Humanity is a specie not a race.

    Hmm that is a good point Altara .,
    NO RACE ,
    ONE RACE ONE SPECIES
    THERE IS NO RACE IT IS JUST SPECIES

    I was and am very much involved in biology/physiology of human race  .. it pays for  my bread and  butter  .. well on that note let me read this nice Harvard article  of Vivian Chou How Science and Genetics are Reshaping the Race Debate of the 21st Century  .. that is good one

    Quote
    2/"very smart and intelligent well educated university graduates /faculties DO NOT USE COMMONSENSE " because since the XIXth c. (Nöldeke)they believe the master narrative Mecca/Kaba/Abu Sufyan to be the historical truth of the emergence of the Quran.

    well then they should call themselves as believers/faith heads NOT HISTORIANS  .. explorers of true history

    Quote
    Well, we have only conjectures, but it is before Islam and before the 6th c.

    On that  Safaitic script on rocks., I was exploring to figure out  whether anyone dated those rocks and and found them(or SOME OF THEM) _ are from before Christ..  clearly they were  there before 4th century

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9970 - February 28, 2021, 11:10 PM

    45] καὶ τὸ ξύμπαν εἰπεῖν χαλεπώτατός τε καὶ δεινότατος οὗτος ἀνὴρ γέγονε Ῥωμαίοις πολέμιος πάντων μάλιστα. αἴτιον δὲ ἦν ὅτι Ἀλαμούνδαρος μὲν βασιλέως ἀξίωμα ἔχων ἁπάντων μόνος τῶν ἐν Πέρσαις Σαρακηνῶν ἦρχε, παντί τε τῷ στρατῷ οἷός τε ἦν ἀεὶ τὴν ἔφοδον ποιεῖσθαι ὅπη βούλοιτο τῆς Ῥωμαίων ἀρχῆς.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9971 - March 01, 2021, 02:44 PM

    What’s the significance of the Procopius quote?


    e2a: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mundhir_III_ibn_al-Harith
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9972 - March 02, 2021, 10:28 AM

    What’s the significance of the Procopius quote?


    e2a: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mundhir_III_ibn_al-Harith

    interesting wiki link., zeca always throws me out of my line of thinking with some odd post and a simple literature link  Cheesy

    hello zeca that link says
    Quote
    Al-Mundhir ibn al-Ḥārith (المنذر بن الحارث), known in Greek sources as (Flavios) Alamoundaros (Φλάβιος Ἀλαμούνδαρος), was the king of the Ghassanid Arabs from 569 to circa 581. A son of Al-Harith ibn Jabalah, he succeeded his father both in the kingship over his tribe and as the chief of the Byzantine Empire's Arab clients and allies in the East, with the rank of patricius.


    that time period ....  569 to circa 581.   .. is right in the middle of prophet of Islam life from Islamic stories ., I wonder such a famous guy as this did not mention a name like "Muhammad"??

    Quote
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. ..


    I am also interested another Jewish guy of that time BENJAMIN OF TIBERIAS ..  who according to literature  says this

    Quote
    BENJAMIN OF TIBERIAS:
     
    A rich Jew who, when the emperor Heraclius in 628 went to Jerusalem during the Persian war, was accused of hostility toward the Christians. This accusation probably implied that he sided with the Persians. Notwithstanding this charge, however, the emperor became the guest of Benjamin, who provided both for him and for his army. Reproached by Heraclius for his hostility toward the Christians, Benjamin frankly declared: "The Christians, also, are enemies of my religion." When the emperor punished the Jews after his victory, he spared Benjamin on condition that the latter would consent to baptism, and perhaps with the further understanding that he would emigrate to Egypt.

    http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/eng/Benjamin_of_Tiberias

    any lit sources on that guy  w.r.t to Islam of that time??

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_of_Tiberias
    https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/saoc66.pdf
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9973 - March 03, 2021, 12:42 PM

    45] καὶ τὸ ξύμπαν εἰπεῖν χαλεπώτατός τε καὶ δεινότατος οὗτος ἀνὴρ γέγονε Ῥωμαίοις πολέμιος πάντων μάλιστα. αἴτιον δὲ ἦν ὅτι Ἀλαμούνδαρος μὲν βασιλέως ἀξίωμα ἔχων ἁπάντων μόνος τῶν ἐν Πέρσαις Σαρακηνῶν ἦρχε, παντί τε τῷ στρατῷ οἷός τε ἦν ἀεὶ τὴν ἔφοδον ποιεῖσθαι ὅπη βούλοιτο τῆς Ῥωμαίων ἀρχῆς.

    To put the problem as a whole - this statesman (Al-Munḏir III) became the most difficult and terrible of all the enemies of the Romans. The reason for this was that Alamundaras (Al-Munḏir III) , having the title of king, ruled alone all the Saracens in the territories subject to the Persians, [therefore in Iraq] and was able always to make an invasion of Roman territory with the whole army and at any point.

    Now reflect. What is the Yarmuk battle?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9974 - March 03, 2021, 02:19 PM

    This might be worth reading: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rome-East-Transformation-Warwick-Ball/dp/0415717779
    Quote
    This new edition of Rome in the East expands on the seminal work of the first edition, and examines the lasting impact of the near Eastern influence on Rome on our understanding of the development of European culture. Warwick Ball explores modern issues as well as ancient, and overturns conventional ideas about the spread of European culture to the East. This volume includes analysis of Roman archaeological and architectural remains in the East, as well as links to the Roman Empire as far afield as Iran, Central Asia, India, and China. The Near Eastern client kingdoms under Roman rule are examined in turn and each are shown to have affected Roman, and ultimately European, history in different but very fundamental ways. The highly visible presence of Rome in the East – mainly the architectural remains, some among the greatest monumental buildings in the Roman world – are examined from a Near Eastern perspective and demonstrated to be as much, if not more, a product of the Near East than of Rome.

    Warwick Ball presents the story of Rome in the light of Rome’s fascination with the Near East, generating new insights into the nature and character of Roman civilisation, and European identity from Rome to the present. Near Eastern influence can be seen to have transformed Roman Europe, with perhaps the most significant change being the spread of Christianity. This new edition is updated with the latest research and findings from a range of sources including field work in the region and new studies and views that have emerged since the first edition. Over 200 images, most of them taken by the author, demonstrate the grandeur of Rome in the East. This volume is an invaluable resource to students of the history of Rome and Europe, as well as those studying the Ancient Near East.


    e2a: a critical review https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2001/2001.08.32/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9975 - March 03, 2021, 02:24 PM

    45] καὶ τὸ ξύμπαν εἰπεῖν χαλεπώτατός τε καὶ δεινότατος οὗτος ἀνὴρ γέγονε Ῥωμαίοις πολέμιος πάντων μάλιστα. αἴτιον δὲ ἦν ὅτι Ἀλαμούνδαρος μὲν βασιλέως ἀξίωμα ἔχων ἁπάντων μόνος τῶν ἐν Πέρσαις Σαρακηνῶν ἦρχε, παντί τε τῷ στρατῷ οἷός τε ἦν ἀεὶ τὴν ἔφοδον ποιεῖσθαι ὅπη βούλοιτο τῆς Ῥωμαίων ἀρχῆς.

    To put the problem as a whole - this statesman (Al-Munḏir III) became the most difficult and terrible of all the enemies of the Romans. The reason for this was that Alamundaras (Al-Munḏir III) , having the title of king, ruled alone all the Saracens in the territories subject to the Persians, [therefore in Iraq] and was able always to make an invasion of Roman territory with the whole army and at any point.

    Now reflect. What is the Yarmuk battle?


    Altara - do you see some continuity between the Ghassanids and the forces fighting at Yarmuk?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9976 - March 03, 2021, 03:22 PM

    I see the continuity on both sides.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9977 - March 03, 2021, 04:27 PM

    "very smart and intelligent well educated university graduates /faculties DO NOT USE COMMONSENSE " because since the XIXth c. (Nöldeke)they believe the master narrative Mecca/Kaba/Abu Sufyan to be the historical truth of the emergence of the Quran.


    Is this also to do with divisions between academic specialisations? Would it look the same if more of them knew both Greek and Arabic and were equally familiar with late antiquity and early Islam? Rather than classicists whose subject ends with the conquests and orientalists whose subject begins with them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9978 - March 03, 2021, 05:23 PM

    This issue is important: Sean Anthony learned  "Near Eastern Studies" :

    The University of Chicago , Chicago, IL A.M.,
    Ph. D., with honors, Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
    , August 2009
     Specialization: Islamic Thought and Early Islamic History Dissertation Title:
    The Caliph and the Heretic
    : ʿAbdallāh ibn Sabaʾ, the Sabaʾī  ya, and the Origins of Shīʿ ism between Myth and History
    Dissertation Committee: Profs. Wadad Kadi (advisor), Fred M. Donner, and Wilferd Madelung
    RESEARCH  AND TEACHING INTERESTS
     
    Religion and Society in Late Antiquity and Medieval IslamEarly Canonical Literatures of Islam
    (Qrʾan and Hadith)  Statecraft and Political Thought om the early Islam period to the  Abbasid period (
    ca.  600 - 1250 CE )Comparative Apocalypticism and Messianism
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9979 - March 03, 2021, 05:25 PM

    Is this also to do with with divisions between academic specialisations? Would it look the same if more of them knew both Greek and Arabic and were equally familiar with late antiquity and early Islam? Rather than classicists whose subject ends with the conquests and orientalists whose subject begins with them.


    1/Of course. Especially with anglo-saxon academic specialisations
    2/No, it would not look the same for themselves.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9980 - March 03, 2021, 05:34 PM

    The Quranic topic need to see the all stuff: from Jesus to the 7thc. Hyperspecialisation miss the point and people like Anthony (or others (Donner, etc)...) miss it as well. (For me...) Anthony is not a "real" historian, therefore he cannot understand who, when, where and why the Quran has emerged in Arabic, not Greek, Syriac, Middle-Persian or Coptic.
    Plus, there is the issue of the more and more heavy presence of the Muslims in USA and elsewhere who prevent to publish things outside the Muslim narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9981 - March 04, 2021, 09:23 PM

    Fred Donner talking about the field.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC_wuhppVic
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9982 - March 05, 2021, 01:38 AM

    The first 15 minutes are important, related to what I say higher.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9983 - March 06, 2021, 09:01 PM

    Yarmuk:

    Is this battle attested in non muslim sources? Which ones?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9984 - March 06, 2021, 09:21 PM

    Muslim sources only.  As it is not related to the master narrative, I see nothing to not accept it as such like the Dhu Qar one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9985 - March 07, 2021, 03:56 PM

    Quote
    Yarmuk:

    Is this battle attested in non muslim sources? Which ones?

    Muslim sources only. As it is not related to the master narrative, I see nothing to not accept it as such like the Dhu Qar one.


    That is an interesting way of looking in to history of Islam., .. Muslim sources vs Non-Muslim sources ....



    I wonder whether you have seen/ read that book ??  Just curious .. what early battles in Islam do you believe that really occurred and what you do  not believe?

    Starting from Battle of Badr 
    Quote
    Battle of Badr, (624 ce), in Islamic history, major military victory led by the Prophet Muhammad that marked a turning point for the early Muslim community (ummah) from a defensive stance toward one of stability and expansion


    which you do not believe that it took place . Can we start Islam from that August 20, 636: Battle of Yarmuk??  and before that it was all stories from story tellers ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9986 - March 07, 2021, 06:14 PM

    Yarmuk:

    Is this battle attested in non muslim sources? Which ones?


    Different chronicles do relate to battles that people have tried to pin down to Yarmuk but with no convincing success and with scholars contradicting each other.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9987 - March 07, 2021, 07:24 PM

    Yarmouk:

    I still think it is relevant that non-muslim sources dont mention it. This is supposed to be a very decisive battle. How come the Roman side didnt record it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9988 - March 07, 2021, 08:18 PM

    That is the question.
    Heraclius died in 640 after a 30 years war and many events. The Arab taking over is 630 , Heraclius  was gone to Constantinople  (from Jerusalem) in 628 with an exhausted army.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9989 - March 07, 2021, 08:33 PM

    Exhausted army:

    Yes, that's the explanation that is always given. I just wonder if that is true.

    Heraclius won a decisive battle in 622. Then apparently some deals were made to hand over power. Jerusalem continued to be governed by Persians until the handover in 630...
    Why would these armies be exhausted? Something of the sort happened in Egypt. This seems to be far from the total war we would expect.
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