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Reply #9870 - December 31, 2020, 01:05 AM

A link to download Shoemaker's Apocalypse of Empire for free.

https://fr.scribd.com/document/441670716/Stephen-J-Shoemaker-the-Apocalypse-of-Empire-I-Z-lib-org#logout
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Reply #9871 - January 01, 2021, 11:42 AM

Quote from: Marc S on December 31, 2020, 01:05 AM
A link to download Shoemaker's Apocalypse of Empire for free.

https://fr.scribd.com/document/441670716/Stephen-J-Shoemaker-the-Apocalypse-of-Empire-I-Z-lib-org#logout

Hello Marc_S glad to see you back with a Shoemaker book link from scribd ., did you download and read it?? any snippets that you could share here??

both of his books are impressive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7cO6mztBp4

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Reply #9872 - January 01, 2021, 09:16 PM

New Books Network podcast: https://newbooksnetwork.com/muhammad-and-the-empires-of-faith
Quote
Contemporary historians have searched for the historical Muhammad along many paths. In Muhammad and the Empires of Faith: The Making of the Prophet of Islam (University of California Press, 2020), Sean Anthony, Professor of Near Eastern Languages and Cultures at Ohio State University, recommends employing non-Muslim and Muslim sources in tandem in order to view a fuller landscape of Late Antiquity. Anthony revisits the earliest Arabic materials, including the Qur’an, epigraphic and archeological evidence, as well as contemporaneous non-Muslim sources, and accounts preserved in the sira-maghazi literature. These make up the four cardinal sources for his historical and philological method. Anthony’s book both introduces a comprehensive portrait of the sources available for understanding Muhammad in his time period, as well as demonstrates how we can arrive at new insights through a “lateral” reading across the Late Antique period. In our conversation we discuss the earliest evidence mentioning Muhammad, non-Muslim testimonies, narratives of Muhammad under the Umayyads, reinvestigating Muhammad as a merchant, the role of the scholarly tradition in recording biographical accounts, the sira of Ibn Ishaq, how Abbasid imperial discourses shaped biographical narratives, literary conventions and cultural aesthetics of the late antique hagiographical writings, comparative readings across Late Antiquity, and future directions for historians.

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Reply #9873 - January 02, 2021, 12:51 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on January 01, 2021, 11:42 AM
Hello Marc_S glad to see you back with a Shoemaker book link from scribd ., did you download and read it?? any snippets that you could share here??

I will read it in the coming weeks.
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Reply #9874 - January 02, 2021, 03:32 PM

Quote from: Marc S on January 02, 2021, 12:51 AM
I will read it in the coming weeks.

Hi Marc_S ., not only reading do not forget to put some snippets of it here .. well let me add this review of that book from dr. Joseph Lipp ...

Quote
The Apocalypse of Empire is a study of eschatology in late antiquity with particular reference to early Islam. It is underpinned by two convictions: first, early Islam must be contextualized in the broader culture of the late ancient Near East, and second, early Islam must be examined using the same historico-critical methods as those we have used in the study of other religions for well over a century.

The book treats two main topics. The first topic is the eschatological context of early Islam. Here Shoemaker focuses on notions of eschatology and empire and demonstrates that in late antiquity, imperial conquest and eschatology often went hand in hand. Moreover, eschatological expectations were high among Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, and Muslims alike. Second, on its way to contextualizing early Islam, the book looks at the broad history of apocalypticism in the religions of the ancient world, including Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and, briefly, paganism. Shoemaker argues against a widespread modern claim that apocalypse as a genre and worldview was naturally anti-imperial.

The book’s central idea and most important claim is that “earliest Islam was a movement driven by urgent eschatological belief that focused on the conquest—or liberation—of the biblical Holy Land” (1). This statement contains the two main topics mentioned above: eschatology on the one hand and the eschatologically-motivated imperial ambitions within early Islam on the other. In order to flesh out this claim, the book covers a lot of ground—a good eight centuries and dozens of documents in Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and Arabic—and Shoemaker is eager to announce that the book is partly a work of synthesis, for which he will rely on the work of many scholars outside his particular expertise.

The basic structure of the book is as follows. First, it introduces apocalypticism and eschatology as objects of study in the academy. Second, it discusses eschatology in the ancient Mediterranean and Near East before Islam. And third, it analyzes Islam within the framework of the previous two discussions. The whole consists of an introduction, six chapters, and a conclusion.

The introduction discusses the book’s origin and lays out its plan. The book grew organically out of repeated questions put to Shoemaker after his lectures on an eschatological interpretation of Muhammad. Shoemaker had made such claims in his previous book, The Death of a Prophet; confronted with actual persons and their skepticism, he felt the need to make the case thoroughly, and this book is the result.

The first chapter covers theoretical and historical ground. Theoretically, it reviews scholarly literature on apocalypticism as resistance to imperial rule (especially Horsley, with a citation of Portier-Young),1 and discusses definitions of apocalypticism. Shoemaker himself employs the well-known definitions established by Collins et al.2 Historically, this approach looks first at ancient Jewish apocalyptic texts from the Greek and Roman eras that do evince an anti-imperial outlook, including those from Qumran.

Jesus, Paul, and the Apocalypse of John receive a brief analysis. And in the final stretch of the chapter, Shoemaker looks at non-Jewish and non-Christian sources that bear on the question of eschatology and, in particular, two topoi: a succession of empires leading up to a final judgment and the notion of an eschatological king.

Chapters Two and Three look at the Roman and Byzantine empires, respectively. After a period of Christian quietism (excepting John’s Apocalypse), Christians in the third-century begin to view the Roman empire positively. A new idea arose in late antiquity: the Christian Roman empire is the New Israel, and Constantinople is the New Jerusalem. The Roman Empire is seen as the final world power that will hand over ultimate power to God at the eschaton. The emperor is a key actor in all this, and some texts develop the notion of a mythical Last Roman Emperor, who will conquer all God’s enemies and then travel to Jerusalem where he will lay down his crown and abdicate power to God.

In sixth- and seventh-century Byzantium, we arrive at a point where we can really begin to speak about the Near East as the religious and political backdrop of early Islam. Shoemaker adduces many texts and events that demonstrate rising eschatological expectations, but two are of sufficient weight to mention here.

First, the discourse around Heraclius’ return of the True Cross to Jerusalem calls to mind the eschatological myth of the Last Roman Emperor. Second, a passage from the Qur’an (18.83-102) shows that Muhammad’s religious movement was in contact with the imperial eschatology of late antiquity (via the Syriac Alexander Legend).

Chapter Four demonstrates that the notion that the end of the world would come via imperial triumph permeated the Jewish and Zoroastrian religious cultures of the late ancient Near East. In the case of Judaism, while early Jewish apocalypses (e.g., 1 Enoch and Daniel) viewed empires negatively, late ancient Judaism regards empires more positively, as agents of divine restoration at the eschaton. Likewise, Sasanian rulers believed that they were acting out Zoroastrian mythological scripts in which the end of the world would be realized via the Persian empire.

Chapters Five and Six turn to Islam. Shoemaker reviews scholarship on differing interpretations of Muhammad and his mission (e.g., as a prophet of social justice or a pragmatic political reformer) and then demonstrates that Muhammad and his earliest followers seem to have been expecting the end of the world to occur at any time, probably within their own lifetimes. Such eschatological urgency, and a belief that the very formation of their community partly constituted the inauguration of the eschaton, fueled their conquest of the Near East.

Chapter Six looks at the early Muslim conquests, focusing especially on the liberation of the Holy Land from infidels as an essential goal of the Muslims’ apocalyptic empire.

In the Conclusion, Shoemaker argues that, although the findings of his book may not accord with (a) those, whether scholars and otherwise, who wish to view Muhammad in a more positive light, and (b) the values of modern liberalism, nevertheless “we must confront the past for what it was and in some instances refuse to allow its antiquated and often severe values to define modern norms” (184).

The argument of this book is compelling. Based on its findings, there can be little doubt that Muhammad and his earliest followers were driven by an urgent imperial eschatology that featured long-standing topoi from the Mediterranean and Near East: a belief that earthly empires could or should help usher in the eschaton or move it along, the role of a Last Emperor and a Last Empire, and an obsessive focus on the Holy Land as a crucial place in the drama of the Last Day(s). Viewed in the light of their cultural milieu, Muhammad et al. are seen as playing out familiar eschatological scripts.

Shoemaker marshals dozens and dozens of documents, evenly covering the entire time period of his study, with little to no gaps in time or space, and handles his texts with impressive philological skill. The book deftly zooms back and forth between the forest and the trees, making broad claims while also arguing about minutiae in dating and reconstructing texts. Moreover, it is thoroughly documented and up to date on modern scholarship.

We should point out, however, that his evidence consists almost entirely of (highly literary) texts, and so at some level the book could be seen as more of an intellectual or cultural history of classical and late antiquity. And yet Shoemaker claims to be making historical assertions, that is, he aims to make a point about why certain historical actors actually performed certain actions in the past. Here his study is helped by numerous moments when he connects ideas in these texts with things that actual people did. This provides a proof of concept and then some: the idea is that not only can we imagine people guiding imperial policy in such and such a way based on eschatological beliefs, but we have actual historical examples of the ancients doing so. From this perspective, Muhammad’s imperial eschatology is in no way unusual and is eminently plausible. Moreover, the book is not simply a work of intellectual history, but of historical individuals.

While I found this book both fascinating and important, nevertheless, as a classicist, I have been challenged to think of who might most benefit from reading it—or, perhaps more puzzling, who might actually read it. It is highly specialized, so its readership will likely be limited to scholars rather than (even the most dedicated) lay readers. I could see advisors assigning parts of it to very advanced graduate students in niche areas. Beyond this, scholars interested in the origins of Islam will have to engage with Shoemaker’s work, here and in his The Death of a Prophet (see Chapter Three, ‘The Beginnings of Islam and the End of Days: Muhammad as Eschatological Prophet’). Scholars of late antiquity especially interested in politics and religion will want to consider how Shoemaker’s demonstration of the widespread nature of eschatological beliefs fits into their current understanding of the cultural milieu. Scholars of Christianity (of any time and place) will benefit from asking how Islam’s eschatology and eschatological origins are similar to and different from Christianity’s. As classicists, we have to wonder: is eschatology limited to Abrahamic traditions (and the Stoics)?

Aside from the book’s main thrust about the connection between imperial ambition and eschatological belief in Late Antiquity, its most important contributions right now are Shoemaker’s statements, in the Conclusion, about ancient realities and modern sentiments. He very deftly anticipates criticism from those with a personal stake in this or that vision of Muhammad, clearly lays out the goals of a scholar, and manages to elicit further discussion among all parties without disrespecting the former or compromising the principles of the latter. In religious studies, Bruce Lincoln’s “Theses on Method” has become required reading;3 to this I would add Shoemaker’s Conclusion. Frankly, I would urge every scholar of antiquity to read this book’s final pages.

I found one typo, of no gravity: p. 71, “has to with his classicizing style” should be “has to do with his classicizing style.”

Notes

1. R. A. Horsley, Revolt of the Scribes: Resistance and Apocalyptic Origins (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2010) and A. Portier-Young, Apocalypse Against Empire: Theologies of Resistance in Early Judaism (Grand Rapids, Mich.: W. B. Eerdmans, 2011).

2. J. J. Collins, “Introduction: Toward the Morphology of a Genre”, in Apocalypse: The Morphology of a Genre, edited by J. J. Collins (Semeia 14; Missoula, Mont.: Scholars Press, 1979), pp. 1-19.

3. Bruce Lincoln, “Theses on Method”, Method & Theory in the Study of Religion 17 (2005): 8-10, reprinted in Bruce Lincoln, Gods and Demons, Priests and Scholars: Critical Explorations in the History of Religions (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2015), pp. 1-3.

well I am more interested in Quran verses that are used by him to get the conclusion of "Apocalyptical nature of Islam and the characters in it "
'

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Reply #9875 - January 04, 2021, 09:32 PM

If someone wants to read, here is Hagarism online:
https://www.almuslih.org/Library/Crone,%20P;%20Cook,%20M%20-%20Hagarism.pdf
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Reply #9876 - January 04, 2021, 11:13 PM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on January 04, 2021, 09:32 PM
If someone wants to read, here is Hagarism online:
https://www.almuslih.org/Library/Crone,%20P;%20Cook,%20M%20-%20Hagarism.pdf

Morris is planning an online seminar on Hagarism: https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1346180753089048580
Quote
I was hoping to do a series of these Twitch seminars, but then COVID broke the world and I lost focus. So let’s try some more this year.

I’d like to start by reading some Hagarism, one of my favourite books and a great text for seminars because it’s so dense.
...
If you’d like to participate in one of these seminars, please get in touch: doesn’t matter if you have a PhD or a GED.

The format is: my guests and I read a chapter or article beforehand and then we go through it together, untangling the difficult ideas and talking about the world of Early Islam.

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Reply #9877 - January 06, 2021, 12:14 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG--FQvwccs&feature=emb_title
Quote
Originally streamed on Twitch. I'm joined by Taha, Naadirah and Dr Christopher Rose (UT Austin) to discuss an extract from the chronicle of al-Tabari (d. 923). Having dreamt that a "circumcised people" will destroy his realm, the Byzantine emperor Heraclius meets a wealthy foreign merchant who brings news about a prophet in Arabia. What does it mean?

The extract is on pages 100–104 of The History of al-Tabari, vol. 8, The Victory of Islam, translated by Michael Fishbein.

https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1245403375476396036

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Reply #9878 - January 06, 2021, 04:54 PM

Quote from: zeca on January 06, 2021, 12:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG--FQvwccs&feature=emb_title https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1245403375476396036

TAFSIR IBN JARIR AT-TABARI Tafsir Al-Tabari...
Tafsir Al-Tabari........Tafsir Al-Tabari....... from which version did Ian D. Morris got that statement
Quote
Originally streamed on Twitch. I'm joined by Taha, Naadirah and Dr Christopher Rose (UT Austin) to discuss an extract from the chronicle of al-Tabari (d. 923). Having dreamt that a "circumcised people" will destroy his realm, the Byzantine emperor Heraclius meets a wealthy foreign merchant who brings news about a prophet in Arabia. What does it mean?

The extract is on pages 100–104 of The History of al-Tabari, vol. 8, The Victory of Islam, translated by Michael Fishbein

Is it from Egyptian edition or Saudi edition??

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Reply #9879 - January 07, 2021, 05:26 PM

Abdulla Galadari - review of Daniel Beck, Evolution of the Early Qur'ān: From Anonymous Apocalypse to Charismatic Prophet

https://www.academia.edu/41271068/Review_Evolution_of_the_Early_Qurān_From_Anonymous_Apocalypse_to_Charismatic_Prophet_by_Daniel_Beck

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Reply #9880 - January 10, 2021, 01:37 AM

Simcha Gross - When the Jews Greeted Ali: Sherira Gaon's Epistle in Light of Arabic and Syriac Historiography

https://www.academia.edu/33854404/When_the_Jews_Greeted_Ali_Sherira_Gaons_Epistle_in_Light_of_Arabic_and_Syriac_Historiography

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Reply #9881 - January 10, 2021, 09:07 AM

Quote from: zeca on January 10, 2021, 01:37 AM
Simcha Gross - When the Jews Greeted Ali: Sherira Gaon's Epistle in Light of Arabic and Syriac Historiography

https://www.academia.edu/33854404/When_the_Jews_Greeted_Ali_Sherira_Gaons_Epistle_in_Light_of_Arabic_and_Syriac_Historiography

did you read that ., if you did what is your opinion on that article of dr. Simcha Gross dear zeca??

Quote
Sherira bar Hanina (Hebrew: שרירא בר חנינא) more commonly known as Sherira Gaon (Hebrew: שרירא גאון; c. 906-c. 1006) was the Gaon of the Academy of Pumbeditha. He was one of the most prominent Geonim of his period, and the father of Hai Gaon, who succeeded him as Gaon. He wrote the Iggeret Rav Sherira Gaon ("[The] Epistle of Rav Sherira Gaon"), a comprehensive history of the composition of the Talmud.

Sherira was born circa 906 C.E., the descendant, both on his father's and his mother's side, of prominent families, several members of which had occupied the gaonate. His father was Hananiah ben R. Yehudai, also a gaon. Sherira claimed descent from Rabbah b. Abuha, who belonged to the family of the exilarch, thereby claiming descent from the Davidic line. Sherira stated that his genealogy could be traced back to the pre-Bostanaian branch of that family, which, he claimed, on account of the deterioration of the exilarchate had renounced its claims thereto, preferring instead the scholar's life.[3] The seal of his family was a lion, which was said to have been the emblem of the Judean kings

Simcha Gross other pubs

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Reply #9882 - January 10, 2021, 10:49 AM

It’s interesting and I’ve no particular reason to doubt his arguments.

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Reply #9883 - January 10, 2021, 02:30 PM

Peter Webb - Cry me a Jāhiliyya: Muslim Reconstructions of Pre-Islamic Arabian Culture - A Case Study

https://www.academia.edu/43191616/Cry_me_a_Jāhiliyya_Muslim_Reconstructions_of_Pre_Islamic_Arabian_Culture_A_Case_Study

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Reply #9884 - January 10, 2021, 05:21 PM

Quote from: zeca on January 10, 2021, 10:49 AM
It’s interesting and I’ve no particular reason to doubt his arguments.

Quote from: zeca on January 10, 2021, 10:49 AM
It’s interesting and I’ve no particular reason to doubt his arguments.

., well I casually read it here and there., but now link is taking time and hung up the PC.,

what is interesting in it?? what are his arguments? You agree with Caliph Ali was there and and Jews of Iraq around the present town fallujah (Iraq) greeted him??

Quote
The Jewish Diaspora is often viewed as the paradigm of exile, which implies longing for a place from which a people has been forcibly expelled. This article interprets three sayings by Rav in the Babylonian Talmud as reflecting an alternative ideology, in which living outside the Holy Land is not seen as regrettable or shameful, for God is revealed through the Jewish people’s observance of the Torah and the commandments everywhere. Although the relevant sugya in BT Ta’anit 29a–b opens with catastrophe – the destruction of the Temple – Rav’s three sayings here exude optimism, implying that a good life is attainable wherever Jews reside. Every moment of Torah study is the realization of the “future and hope” promised by the prophet Jeremiah

https://www.mohrsiebeck.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Zeitschriften/Probehefte/JSQ/2019/JSQ_2017-2.pdf

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Reply #9885 - January 10, 2021, 05:53 PM

Quote
Abstract:
Sherira Gaon’s Epistle has been the most important source for the study of Babylonian Jewish history, and yet scholars have often relied too heavily on this work. This article argues that Sherira Gaon’s Epistle must first be situated in its contemporary context, which reveals the many historiographical assumptions about the past that Sherira shared with both Arabic and Syriac historiography from the same period. In particular, analysis of Sherira’s account of the Arab Conquest shows that it is not a historically accurate report of the past. Instead, Sherira is indebted to widespread assumptions of his time that viewed the Conquest as a watershed moment. Moreover, his celebrated account about an encounter between Ali ibn Abi Talib and the Jews of a certain town conforms to other apocryphal conquest accounts, composed in order to secure the material and cultural capital derived from such reports.

Quote
Claims about Ali granting protection were made by many minority groups under Islamic rule. In a mid-12th-century Arabic East-Syrian Christian work, Mar Emmeh is said to have aided the Muslim conquerors of Mosul, and in return was given a letter – a contract of protection from Ali. Another text grounds certain protections and tax exemptions for Armenian Christians in a meeting between the community’s leaders and the very same Ali ibn Abi Talib. The widespread and varied nature of these contracts and claims explains the increased effort in the eighth and ninth centuries to seek uniformity of dhimmi rights, as traced by Levy-Rubin. The Ali narrative in Sherira’s Iggeret fits well within this literary phenomenon. In fact, it is not the only Jewish text to claim a connection with Ali. We have attestations of other Jewish communities that made the same claim...

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Reply #9886 - January 11, 2021, 09:24 AM

Quote from: zeca on January 10, 2021, 05:53 PM

this first statement
Quote
Sherira Gaon’s Epistle has been the most important source for the study of Babylonian Jewish history, and yet scholars have often relied too heavily on this work

itself is wrong in that article..

I don't think I will trust 10th century story teller story on either Babylonian Jewish history or on that early Islamic history story of Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib who was 6th/7th century Islamic character ., of course I yet to read that article

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Reply #9887 - January 12, 2021, 02:29 PM

Quote
Quote from: zeca says on January 10, 2021, 01:37 AM
Simcha Gross - When the Jews Greeted Ali: Sherira Gaon's Epistle in Light of Arabic and Syriac Historiography

https://www.academia.edu/33854404/When_the_Jews_Greeted_Ali_Sherira_Gaons_Epistle_in_Light_of_Arabic_and_Syriac_Historiography

and says
Quote from: zeca on January 10, 2021, 10:49 AM
It’s interesting and I’ve no particular reason to doubt his arguments.

I must say here zeca is right on that .Simcha Gross article., Now I have access I am reading it

Quote
Abstract:
Sherira Gaon’s Epistle has been the most important source for the study of Babylonian Jewish history, and yet scholars have often relied too heavily on this work. This article argues that Sherira Gaon’s Epistle must first be situated in its con-temporary context, which reveals the many historiographical assumptions about the past that Sherira shared with both Arabic and Syriac historiography from the same period. In particular, analysis of Sherira’s account of the Arab Conquest shows that it is not a historically accurate report of the past. Instead, Sherira is indebted to widespread assumptions of his time that viewed the Conquest as a water shed moment. .....

,
well I fully agree with those highlighted words..

Quote
Thus, scholars have had to rethink certain previously accepted historical events “supported” (as it were) by ancient textual evidence. Prime examples of this are certain “watershed moments” that are now understood as later constructions that sought to simplify lengthy, complicated and multifaceted historical processes

Ramsey MacMullen, Christianity and Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries

Ooops I got eat my words., this is actually good publication.. let me print it..

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Reply #9888 - January 12, 2021, 03:05 PM

Chapter Twenty-three Christianity from the Fifth to the Eleventh Century

Quote
While the Dar al-Islam was prospering, much of Christendom was impoverished and the
rest of it was under attack. In western Europe the Roman empire had disintegrated, and what
had once been highly civilized lands entered a long Dark Age. Military and therefore political
power was in the hands of Germanic warlords, whose territories soon evolved into kingdoms.
Social and economic conditions deteriorated to a level not seen since before the original Roman
conquests.

In the east, the Byzantine empire not only surrendered everything south of the
Taurus mountains to the Arabians, but also suffered on its western and northern frontiers the
same kind of barbarian raids and takeovers that had earlier ruined western Europe and Britain.
Although the Byzantines survived the barbarian onslaught, their empire was much diminished by
it: from the fifth through the seventh century the Byzantine empire lost not only the Levant,
Egypt and North Africa to the Arabians, but also most of southeastern Europe to Slavic- or
Avar-speaking warlords. In the bleakest periods the empire consisted only of Anatolia and, in
Europe, Constantinople itself and its hinterland.

that is from chapter 23 of this book

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Reply #9889 - January 18, 2021, 09:00 AM

What do you think about that Muhammad was the Persian Iyas Ibn Qabisha Al Tai? On a podcast named Sneaker's Corner, they have been occupied with this idea for a while. They are often quoting Chinese sources. I have no idea if this is based on serious research or not. Does anybody here know?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1WUyoy8rvE
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Reply #9890 - January 18, 2021, 09:19 AM

It's a new one to me. I'd be very sceptical but I haven't listened to the arguments.

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Reply #9891 - January 18, 2021, 12:01 PM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on January 18, 2021, 09:00 AM
What do you think about that Muhammad was the Persian Iyas Ibn Qabisha Al Tai? On a podcast named Sneaker's Corner, they have been occupied with this idea for a while. They are often quoting Chinese sources. I have no idea if this is based on serious research or not. Does anybody here know?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1WUyoy8rvE

Which Muhammad?

1). Muhammad of Quran., where that word in Quran was mentioned in a vague way in four verses or so out of 6300 verses of Quran??

2). Or...Or... Muhammad of Hadith where you see volumes and volumes and stories over stories were written in the name of Muhmmad ??

Quote
DEMONIZATION & OCCULT BEHAVIOUR IN ISLAM BY EARLY MUSLIMS

Returning to the 7th Century, Mel has found that the Proto-Muslims, the Magaritai (also known as Hagarenes, Ishmaelites, and even Saracens) chose to follow Satan, and rejected categorically the holy icons of Christianity, including the cross, the Eucharist, and Baptism. He noted that at its very foundations, Islam, as it began to form, chose not to follow Jesus Christ, but incorporate that which stood against everything Christianity considered to be holy and foundational, which helps us understand why it continues to reject Jesus Christ and everything He came to do even today. From 7th century writings Mel noticed that according to the demons’ words, while being exorcised, the Saracens were considered by the demons to be “our comrades”, and “our companions” Mel concludes that any faith which does not honour the cross, or baptism, or the Eucharist, and that does not confess the son of Mary to be God or son of God as their core doctrines, is a heresy, and thus ripe for adopting Demonic practices, as are found all over the Muslim world from the 7th century until today (What is commonly termed “folk Islam”) Interestingly, the Jews in the recorded Muhammad (known then in the 7th century as Ilyas ibn Qabisha) as being possessed, and it should also be noted that the Islamic Tradition also refers to the later 9th-10th century Muhammad of Islam as being bewitched, even using it as an excuse for the Satanic Verses (Surah 53:19-20). Islam grew out of an environment of demonic infestation but has no response to it at all, as can be evidenced by the 7th century examples of the caliphs Muawiya, Abd al Malik and even the governor al Hajjaj, who instead of going to their own religious leaders, came to Christians to be healed, and particularly to be healed of demonization. From the very beginning, those who created Islam, though they rejected the God of Christianity, they recognized that there was something special and powerful behind the prayer and power of the Christians, which they employed for their own gain. This has continued even until today, where much of the Islamic world follows what is commonly termed “Folk Islam” (eg. employing the ‘Evil Eye’, or ‘Fatima’s Hand’, or the ‘Giri-giris’ for protections against the evil spirits). Ironically, the very things the earliest “Muslims” hated and were fearful of in the 7th century (the cross, baptism and the Eucharist) are the very things we as Christians love, because they are central to everything we believe as Christians. © Pfander Centre for Apologetics – US, 2020 (41,190) (Music: “small adventure”, by Rafael Krux, from filmmusic-io – License CC BY)

This Video Is Not The Intellectual Property of Agape Love, Love Is Here, But Is Streamed From Youtube

there is this tube video in that link on that subject of what Asbjoern1958 posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umhk1uaa6lI

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWbFMAgToBJE9xRxJwS8ZHg

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #9892 - January 18, 2021, 02:25 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sHOzAW8exs

Daniel Brubaker answers Yasir Qadhi.. ...

oh boy.... Yasir Qadhi.... Yasir Qadhi... fool should read Quran again & again.. and that also goes to faculty members of west that publishes papers on Islam.,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccVpy3yr9CQ

yes..yes.. IDIOTS... you are one of them., this is actually good what Yasir Qadhi is doing., but hope Islamic intellectuals of Pakistan forgives him.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #9893 - January 18, 2021, 02:42 PM

well I SHOULD NOT GIVE TIME TO THESE IDIOTS FROM PAKSITAN PUNJABI background and preach Islam on internet and and they are born & living in west., but I have to.. they double talk...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqWm1Cbcyfo

damn one hr.. I will watch it later

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9894 - January 19, 2021, 12:53 AM

Quote from: zeca on January 18, 2021, 09:19 AM
It's a new one to me. I'd be very sceptical but I haven't listened to the arguments.

AJ Deus in The Great Leap Fraud Part II was the first to bring forward this assumption ; It looks kind of possible but, the only issue I have with this, is that then why the islamic narrative didn't come forward in openly using this guy under its real name if this was the real Muhammad ; there are enough events in this guy 's life to do this and help build the prophet legend.
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Reply #9895 - January 19, 2021, 03:27 AM

The worst is not Mel. It is his friend "Joe" a guy who brings confusion in a topic which does not need it.
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Reply #9896 - January 21, 2021, 09:49 AM

Quote from: Altara on January 19, 2021, 03:27 AM
The worst is not Mel. It is his friend "Joe" a guy who brings confusion in a topic which does not need it.

that is a good one

Quote from: Marc S on January 19, 2021, 12:53 AM
AJ Deus in The Great Leap Fraud Part II was the first to bring forward this assumption ;

well I am not ceratin he was the first one to mention that Prophet of Islam Muhammad could be that guy the governor al-Hirah from 602 to 617 .. Iyas ibn Qabisah al-Ta'i .. I think other folks thought about it before Deus...

Quote
It looks kind of possible but, the only issue I have with this, is that then why the islamic narrative didn't come forward in openly using this guy under its real name if this was the real Muhammad ; there are enough events in this guy 's life to do this and help build the prophet legend.

well anything is possible and any one of those Islamic characters of that time could be made as Muhammad PBUH ., but we can not just give handwaving assumption on "Muhammad"

anyways let me add this SELECTIVE BIBLOGRAPHY from that book...The Great Leap-Fraud, Volume II by A.J. Deus
Quote
Bibliography for The Great Leap-Fraud, Volume II Islam and Secularization

The bibliography is divided into primary sources, significant church councils, and secondary sources. Within these sections, the references are ordered according to the timeline. These are the sources that were utilized in The Great Leap-Fraud. There are hundreds more that had been studied without finding a place in the actual manuscript.

Primary Sources

Flavius Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews, ca. 90 AD, translated by William Whiston.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, ca. 325 AD.

St. Augustine, DeGenesi ad Litteram, 354-430 AD.

Book of the Martyrdom of Bartholomew, ca. 500 AD, translated by Alexander Walker, from Ante-Nicene Fathers, edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, Christian Literature,
1886. Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight.
Anicius Boethius,

The Consolation of Philosophy, ca. 525 AD, translated by W.V.Cooper, Dent, 1902.

The Poem of Amru, translated by W.A. Clouston, 1881.

The Sacred Books and Early Literature of the East, Parke, Austin, & Lipscomb, 1917.

Poem of Hareth, translated by W. A. Clouston, 1881.

The Poem of Tarafa, translated by W.A. Clouston, 1881.

Thomas Hodgkin, Letters of Cassiodorus, Frowde, 1886.

Corpus Juris Civilis, 534 AD.

Procopius of Ceasarea, History of the Wars, 545 AD.

Procopius of Cesarea, The Secret History, ca. 550 AD.

Gregory the Great, Dialogues, ca. 600 AD.

Homily on the Child Saints of Babylon, ca. 640 AD.

Pseudo-Shenute, Vision, ca. 644 AD.

Thomas the Presbyter, Chronicle, ca. 640 AD.

Pope Martin, Epistles, ca. 655 AD.

Chronicler of Khuzistan, ca. 665 AD.

Sebeo’s History of the seventh century, publishing ca. 670 AD, English by Robert Bedrosian, 1985.

John, Bishop of Nikiû, Chronicles, ca. 690 AD.

Arculf, ca. 690s, Adomnan, De locis sanctis.

John of Damascus, The Fount of Knowledge, ca. 740 AD, Frederic Chase, Fathers of the Church, 1958.

Chronicle of Theophanes the Confessor, Harry Turtledove (translator) The chronicle of Theophanes: an English translation of anni mundi 6095-6305 (602-813 AD), University of Pennsylvania Press, 1982.

ibn Khordadbeh, The Book of Roads and Kingdoms, ca. 870 AD.
Tabari (838–923 AD).

Secondary Sources

Al-Sahifa al-Kamilah al-Sajjadiyya,The Perfect Book of al-Sajjad, ca. 678-713 AD.

Ibn Ishaq, The Biography of Muhammad, ca. 760s AD (original is missing).

Sahih Bukhari, 846 AD,CMJE and the University of Southern California, 2007-2009.

Al-Tabarī, 838–923 AD, The History of Al Tabari, translated by Ismail K. Poonawala (1990, State University of New York) 107.

Daniel J. Sahas, John of Damascus on Islam: The "Heresy of the Ishmaelites", Brill, Leiden, 1972.

Patricia Crone, M.A. Cook, Hagarism, The Making of the Islamic World, Cambridge University Press, 1977.

John Wansbrough, Qur'anic Studies: Sources & Methods Of Scriptural Interpretation, Oxford University Press, 1977.

Emmanuel van Si, Radical Islam, Medieveal Theology and Modern Politics, Yale University Press, 1985.

Andrew Rippin, Jan Knappert, Textual Sources for the Study of Islam, University of Chicago Press, 1990.

Francis E. Peters, Muhammad and the origins of Islam, State University of New York Press, 1994.

Neal Robinson, Christ in Islam and Christianity, in Ibn Rawandi, On Pre-Islamic Christian Strophic Poetical Tests in the Koran, from Ibn Warraq, What the Koran Really Says, Prometheus, 2002.

Yehuda D. Nevo, “Toward a Prehistory of Islam,” JSAI 17, 1994, from Ibn Warraq, What the Koran Really Says, Prometheus, 2002.

Albert Habib Hourani, Malise Ruthven, A history of the Arab Peoples, Harvard University press, 2002.

all those I selected to read.... (Here and there if not every page in them)....from that book bibliography ... great guy... wonderful thinker ..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #9897 - January 22, 2021, 11:13 PM

New Books Network podcast: https://newbooksnetwork.com/the-golden-calf-between-bible-and-quran
Quote
In his exciting and thorough book, The Golden Calf between Bible and Qur'an: Scripture, Polemic, and Exegesis from Late Antiquity to Islam (Oxford, 2020), Michael Pregill explores the biblical and Qur'anic episode of the golden calf as understood by various Jewish, Christian, and Muslim sources. The incident refers, of course, to when the Israelites created a golden calf in the absence of the Prophet Musa. Pregill shows that the episode's various interpretations across time reflect the cultural, religious, ideological, social, textual, and other contexts in which the issue was being discussed. Each community sought to legitimate its own existence, theology, and tradition through its interpretation. So, for instance, the episode is central to Jewish and Christian arguments over the inheritance of the covenantal legacy of Israel. Each community also appropriates and subverts the apologetic renderings and tropes of the other communities, not passively accepting or rejecting but strategically negotiating with it to adapt to new contexts. The episode therefore becomes crucial for the community’s self-identification. More specific to Islam is a key component of his argument that while western academic scholars draw heavily from the tafsir tradition, they fail to situate the episode in its historical context in the late antique milieu.

In our discussion today, Pregill describes the golden calf episode at length from biblical and Qur’anic perspectives. He summarizes some of the major arguments and contributions of the book, identifies scholars with whom he is in conversation, discusses the status of Qur’anic studies today, reflects on the identity of the mysterious Samiri in the Qur’anic version, emphasizes the recent diminished importance and the dire need of exploring tafsir (Qur’anic exegesis) in the study of Islam, explains the relationship between western scholars of Islam (or the Qur’an specifically) and classical Muslim exegetes, and a lot more.

Which side are you on?
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Reply #9898 - January 23, 2021, 06:58 PM

"reflects on the identity of the mysterious Samiri in the Qur’anic version"

I did not read the book.
(For me...) the identity of the "Samiri", as such in the Quranic passage, is Simon the Samaritan, the figure of the Devil in the Pseudo-Clementine literature. He is the same figure than the "Samiri" of the Quranic passage, namely, the Devil. See Q 20,85.
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Reply #9899 - January 23, 2021, 08:05 PM

Quote
Quote from: zeca on January 22, 2021, 11:13 PM
New Books Network podcast: https://newbooksnetwork.com/the-golden-calf-between-bible-and-quran

Quote from: Altara on January 23, 2021, 06:58 PM
"reflects on the identity of the mysterious Samiri in the Qur’anic version"

I did not read the book.

well i don't want to read such books as these..

but by clicking that book jpg you can hear Q&A of dr. Michael Pregill

Quote
(For me...) the identity of the "Samiri", as such in the Quranic passage, is Simon the Samaritan, the figure of the Devil in the Pseudo-Clementine literature. He is the same figure than the "Samiri" of the Quranic passage, namely, the Devil. See Q 20,85.

well Altara I am not sure about that unless you say that is the same story in bible also., otherwise i simply consider it as silly statements in Quran to dribble one of the bible story in which such many bible stories are expressed innumerable verses to reinforce the new faith Islam ., Anyway please give some link on those highlighted words of your post on that "Pseudo-Clementine literature"

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

Marc S

Reply #9870 - December 31, 2020, 01:05 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9871 - January 01, 2021, 11:42 AM

zeca

Reply #9872 - January 01, 2021, 09:16 PM

Marc S

Reply #9873 - January 02, 2021, 12:51 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9874 - January 02, 2021, 03:32 PM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #9875 - January 04, 2021, 09:32 PM

zeca

Reply #9876 - January 04, 2021, 11:13 PM

zeca

Reply #9877 - January 06, 2021, 12:14 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9878 - January 06, 2021, 04:54 PM

zeca

Reply #9879 - January 07, 2021, 05:26 PM

zeca

Reply #9880 - January 10, 2021, 01:37 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9881 - January 10, 2021, 09:07 AM

zeca

Reply #9882 - January 10, 2021, 10:49 AM

zeca

Reply #9883 - January 10, 2021, 02:30 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9884 - January 10, 2021, 05:21 PM

zeca

Reply #9885 - January 10, 2021, 05:53 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9886 - January 11, 2021, 09:24 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9887 - January 12, 2021, 02:29 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9888 - January 12, 2021, 03:05 PM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #9889 - January 18, 2021, 09:00 AM

zeca

Reply #9890 - January 18, 2021, 09:19 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9891 - January 18, 2021, 12:01 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9892 - January 18, 2021, 02:25 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9893 - January 18, 2021, 02:42 PM

Marc S

Reply #9894 - January 19, 2021, 12:53 AM

Altara

Reply #9895 - January 19, 2021, 03:27 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9896 - January 21, 2021, 09:49 AM

zeca

Reply #9897 - January 22, 2021, 11:13 PM

Altara

Reply #9898 - January 23, 2021, 06:58 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9899 - January 23, 2021, 08:05 PM

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