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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9810 - September 14, 2020, 07:38 PM

    So again on that prof. Sidney Griffith’s, The Bible in Arabic.., Hadi Gerami writes that book review] and  in fact he criticizes the book and its assumptions . S. M. Hadi Gerami is Assistant Professor of Islamic and Qurʾānic Studies at the Institute for Humanities and Cultural Studies (IHCS) in Tehran.

    and this pub is equally interesting..

      The identity and witness of Arab pre-Islamic Arab Christianity: The Arabic language and the Bible by  David Grafton ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9811 - September 14, 2020, 07:40 PM

    Griffith is a great scholar. He says that there was no Bible in Arabic script before Islam.  That Arabs were told in Arabic stories of OT &NT, by Syriac people of course. But no writings.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9812 - September 15, 2020, 08:27 AM

    Griffith is a great scholar. He says that there was no Bible in Arabic script before Islam. ..

     true he is a great scholar ., true there was NO BIBLE BOOK IN ARABIC at that time ... but on this
    Quote
    That Arabs were told in Arabic stories of OT &NT, by Syriac people of course. But no writings.

    I disagree dear Altara ..?  what is bible ?? It is a story book...... narrations and stories .. songs and sonnets,....

    And what are these Quran manuscripts (((or what you say  "ensemble of the sura(s)")))  before it became a book??
    ............................I mean the ensemble of the sura(s) but not reunited in a codex/ book ...............

      what are those??

     narrations and stories .. songs and sonnets IN A WRITTEN ARABIC SCRIPT,, 

    anyways did you read through this guy

    well  I am still a child trying to walk through Christianity of Middle east between  the years 200 to 700 or so. I wonder when ... what year actually these OT/NT book/s (any one of the book)was published as book in Arabic ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9813 - September 15, 2020, 09:31 AM

    Quote
    I disagree dear Altara ..?  what is bible ?? It is a story book...... narrations and stories .. songs and sonnets,....


    Yes but not in Arabic script to be read in a book form or whatever. That Arabs were told in Arabic stories of OT &NT, by Syriac clergy  of course. But no OT &NT writing in Arabic before the 10th c. (?) See Griffith for this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9814 - September 15, 2020, 09:50 AM

    Yes but not in Arabic script to be read in a book form or whatever. That Arabs were told in Arabic stories of OT &NT, by Syriac clergy  of course. But no OT &NT writing in Arabic before the 10th c. (?) See Griffith for this.


    I understand your point and explore the subject with open mind., I guess  I need to learn more on the differences between  Eastern Christianity  and   Byzantine Christianity  and synthesis of Quran manuscripts born out of stories of Eastern Christianity

    Anyways let me  get this
    Quote
    Theodore Abū Qurrah's Arabic Tract on the Christian Practice of Venerating Images
    Sidney H. Griffith  Journal of the American Oriental Society Vol. 105, No. 1 (Jan. - Mar., 1985), pp. 53-73 (21 pages)

    Abstract

    Between the years 795 and 812 A. D., Theodore Abū Qurrah served as the Melkite bishop of Ḥarrān. During this period he composed in Arabic a pamphlet in which he justified the Christian practice of venerating images of Christ and the saints, against objections coming from Jews and Muslims. He wrote the pamphlet in response to a request from an individual named Yannah, who was an official at the "Church of the Image of Christ" in Edessa. The review of Abū Qurrah's arguments in this pamphlet provides evidence for the study of contemporary Jewish and Islamic attitudes to public Christian devotional observances, as well as to pictorial artwork in the religious milieu in general. Furthermore, the consideration of the socio-historical context of the tract allows one to gain a new perspective on the progress of the public promotion of Islam in the territories of the caliphate during the early Islamic centuries. And it offers yet another perspective from which to consider the relationship of Islamic attitudes concerning religious art to iconoclasm in Byzantium.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9815 - September 15, 2020, 11:26 AM

    Altara,

    Arabs and the Bible: why introduction by Syriac speaking people? What were the languages of people in the Negev and the Arabah ( the contact areas of the Hijaz)? We see written Greek and an Arabic substrate.

    Then there is also teh Damascus psalm fragment, first dated pre-islamic, now more likely 8th C (but no certainty). That's arabic written in Greek letters. Were does the Syriac come in?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9816 - September 15, 2020, 01:46 PM

    1/ Because the Quran attests of this Syriac/Aramaic path in its religious vocabulary and not the Greek one.
    2/The religious language of the Negev is the Greek one written by Arabs people:  Cf. R. Stroumsa, "Nessana papyri" very important thesis (in the internet...)
    3/ Pre Islamic Contact area of Hijaz have not (to my knowledge) monotheist religious inscriptions which could be linguistically traced since Arabic is a Semitic language like Syriac/Aramaic .
    Quote
    Then there is also teh Damascus psalm fragment, first dated pre-islamic, now more likely 8th C (but no certainty). That's arabic written in Greek letters. Were does the Syriac come in?

    Elaborate.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9817 - September 15, 2020, 04:57 PM

    Damascus psalm fragment (see Ahmad Jallad's work) is one of the psalms written in an Arabic identical to Quranic Arabic but in Greek script.

    At first it was thought to be pre-islamic and thus proof of the existence of a living and thriving Arabic in the Levant, also written in Greek alphabet. Thinking that through would in one go almost prove the Levantine origin of the Quran...

    Now rather the text is considered to be 8th C written by a community having taken over the language of the conquerors but not the script... Sounds a bit crazy? Well the 8th C scenario is the educated guess of the specialists.

    The relevance for the subject we are discussing is that Greek/Arabic  interaction was the norm in the Levant (as also Nessana proves). Van Putten says the Aramaic of the Quran is not the Syriac type but rather the older Aramaic type.

    All these reasons make me question the Syriac/Arabic linguistic link for the Quran...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9818 - September 15, 2020, 05:04 PM

    1/ Because the Quran attests of this Syriac/Aramaic path in its religious vocabulary and not the Greek one.

    Syriac/Aramaic path.....

     "religious vocabulary" ... means ... just ..Syriac/Aramaic   words  here & there in Quran .. or whole statements ??

    Quote
    2/The religious language of the Negev is the Greek one written by Arabs people:  Cf. R. Stroumsa, "Nessana papyri" very important thesis (in the internet...)

    People and Identities in Nessana. Pdf file  by Rachel Stroumsa

    Quote
    3/ Pre Islamic Contact area of Hijaz have not (to my knowledge) monotheist religious inscriptions which could be linguistically traced since Arabic is a Semitic language like Syriac/Aramaic .

     

    How about Hebrew Language?? is it far away from Arabic??

    on that "Syriac/Aramaic"... let me add this 2012 Robert Kerr publication  Aramaisms in Quran  And their Significance

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9819 - September 15, 2020, 10:52 PM

    Quote
    "religious vocabulary" ... means ... just ..Syriac/Aramaic   words  here & there in Quran .. or whole statements ??


     Just ..Syriac/Aramaic words  here & there in whole Arabic statements.

    Quote
    How about Hebrew Language?? is it far away from Arabic??


    Arabic is a Semitic language like Syriac/Aramaic/Hebrew  .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9820 - September 16, 2020, 09:37 AM

    Just ..Syriac/Aramaic words  here & there in whole Arabic statements.

    Arabic is a Semitic language like Syriac/Aramaic/Hebrew  .

      I agree Aramaic is the mother of many languages and gave birth to many languages ((That includes Hebrew)) of middle eastern tribes of ancient time before OT.,    but in spoken language/sounds which in fact is the way  these religious stories/songs/sonnets move around ....

    IS IT NOT HEBREW MORE CLOSER TO ARABIC THAN Aramaic??

    for  example ..



    how do we pronounce those words in Aramaic??  are the sounds of those words in Aramaic same/similar to  what  you see above for Hebrew and Arabic??

    THE FOREIGN VOCABULARY OF THE QURAN.PDF    by  ARTHUR JEFFERY, Ph.D.., Professor of Semitic Languages., School of Oriental Studies., Cairo., 1938  from Oriental Institute Baroda

    that is good book to scan through...

    Quote
    Arthur Jeffery (18 October 1892 in Melbourne – 2 August 1959 in South Milford, Nova Scotia, Canada) was a Protestant Australian professor of Semitic languages from 1921 at the School of Oriental Studies in Cairo, and from 1938 until his death jointly at Columbia University and Union Theological Seminary in New York City. He is the author of extensive historical studies of Middle Eastern manuscripts. His important works include Materials for the History of the Text of the Qur'an: The Old Codices, which catalogs all surviving documented variants of the orthodox Quran text; and The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an, which traces the origins of 318 foreign (non-Arabic) words found in the Qur'an

    Some of Jeffery's studies are included in The Origins of The Koran: Classic Essays on Islam’s Holy Book, edited by Ibn Warraq. They are also discussed in Mohar Ali's The Qur'an and The Orientalists:

     
    Books by Arthur Jeffery include:

    The Textual History of the Qur'an
    The Mystic Letters of the Koran
    A Variant Text of the Fatiha
    The Orthography of the Samarqand Codex
    Materials for the History of the Text of the Qur'an
    The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an
    A Reader on Islam



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9821 - September 16, 2020, 02:31 PM

    A VARIANT TEXT OF THE FĀTIHA by  Arthur Jeffery. First published: April 1939



    well that is published in in this journal 


    Volume29, Issue2 April 1939 Pages 158-162

    well I must get it and read that... and that Journal  starts https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/loi/14781913  in 1910... 

    well scan through it...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9822 - September 16, 2020, 06:08 PM

    Interesting overview of Nabatean script:

    https://www.academia.edu/4587486/Languages_scripts_and_the_uses_of_writing_among_the_Nabataeans?email_work_card=title
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9823 - September 17, 2020, 09:47 AM

    Interesting overview of Nabatean script:


    hello mundi .. just curious about these manuscripts of bible in Arabic .from  St. Catherine’s monastery
    Quote
    A variety of Arabic MSS from the famous library
    at the St. Catherine’s monastery in the Sinai that include  portions of the New Testament have all been identified as  9th century works, including Sinai arab. 151, Sinai arab. 155,  Sinai arab. 154, Sinai arab. 70, Sinai arab. 72, Sinai arab. 73,  Sinai arab. 74, arpet (an Arabic codex of the Pauline Epistles),  and Gregory-Aland 0136 and 0137. These manuscripts (MSS)  or fragments have been studied by a variety of scholars;

    Probably the most famous of these Arabic texts, however, has  been Sinai arab. 154, which was ’discovered’ and studied by  Ms. Margaret Dunlop Gibson (2003 [1899]) during one of her visits to the St. Catherine’s monastery in 1893 ).

    I wonder about carbon dating of those manuscripts.. Just curious .,  are you familiar with those Arabic manuscripts?? 

    Manuscripts in St. Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai
    Quote


    https://www.loc.gov/resource/amedmonastery.00279386048-ms/?st=gallery



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9824 - September 17, 2020, 07:54 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1306351414097178624
    Quote
    The IQSA Abstracts are up, so here's my abstract! I've presented on this idea at Reading the Rasm II before, but it has now developed further, and I hope to to make a compelling case for my claims this year at the online IQSA meeting!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9825 - Yesterday at 12:55 AM

    Quote
    online IQSA meeting!


    At last!
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