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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9810 - September 14, 2020, 07:38 PM

    So again on that prof. Sidney Griffith’s, The Bible in Arabic.., Hadi Gerami writes that book review] and  in fact he criticizes the book and its assumptions . S. M. Hadi Gerami is Assistant Professor of Islamic and Qurʾānic Studies at the Institute for Humanities and Cultural Studies (IHCS) in Tehran.

    and this pub is equally interesting..

      The identity and witness of Arab pre-Islamic Arab Christianity: The Arabic language and the Bible by  David Grafton ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9811 - September 14, 2020, 07:40 PM

    Griffith is a great scholar. He says that there was no Bible in Arabic script before Islam.  That Arabs were told in Arabic stories of OT &NT, by Syriac people of course. But no writings.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9812 - September 15, 2020, 08:27 AM

    Griffith is a great scholar. He says that there was no Bible in Arabic script before Islam. ..

     true he is a great scholar ., true there was NO BIBLE BOOK IN ARABIC at that time ... but on this
    Quote
    That Arabs were told in Arabic stories of OT &NT, by Syriac people of course. But no writings.

    I disagree dear Altara ..?  what is bible ?? It is a story book...... narrations and stories .. songs and sonnets,....

    And what are these Quran manuscripts (((or what you say  "ensemble of the sura(s)")))  before it became a book??
    ............................I mean the ensemble of the sura(s) but not reunited in a codex/ book ...............

      what are those??

     narrations and stories .. songs and sonnets IN A WRITTEN ARABIC SCRIPT,, 

    anyways did you read through this guy

    well  I am still a child trying to walk through Christianity of Middle east between  the years 200 to 700 or so. I wonder when ... what year actually these OT/NT book/s (any one of the book)was published as book in Arabic ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9813 - September 15, 2020, 09:31 AM

    Quote
    I disagree dear Altara ..?  what is bible ?? It is a story book...... narrations and stories .. songs and sonnets,....


    Yes but not in Arabic script to be read in a book form or whatever. That Arabs were told in Arabic stories of OT &NT, by Syriac clergy  of course. But no OT &NT writing in Arabic before the 10th c. (?) See Griffith for this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9814 - September 15, 2020, 09:50 AM

    Yes but not in Arabic script to be read in a book form or whatever. That Arabs were told in Arabic stories of OT &NT, by Syriac clergy  of course. But no OT &NT writing in Arabic before the 10th c. (?) See Griffith for this.


    I understand your point and explore the subject with open mind., I guess  I need to learn more on the differences between  Eastern Christianity  and   Byzantine Christianity  and synthesis of Quran manuscripts born out of stories of Eastern Christianity

    Anyways let me  get this
    Quote
    Theodore Abū Qurrah's Arabic Tract on the Christian Practice of Venerating Images
    Sidney H. Griffith  Journal of the American Oriental Society Vol. 105, No. 1 (Jan. - Mar., 1985), pp. 53-73 (21 pages)

    Abstract

    Between the years 795 and 812 A. D., Theodore Abū Qurrah served as the Melkite bishop of Ḥarrān. During this period he composed in Arabic a pamphlet in which he justified the Christian practice of venerating images of Christ and the saints, against objections coming from Jews and Muslims. He wrote the pamphlet in response to a request from an individual named Yannah, who was an official at the "Church of the Image of Christ" in Edessa. The review of Abū Qurrah's arguments in this pamphlet provides evidence for the study of contemporary Jewish and Islamic attitudes to public Christian devotional observances, as well as to pictorial artwork in the religious milieu in general. Furthermore, the consideration of the socio-historical context of the tract allows one to gain a new perspective on the progress of the public promotion of Islam in the territories of the caliphate during the early Islamic centuries. And it offers yet another perspective from which to consider the relationship of Islamic attitudes concerning religious art to iconoclasm in Byzantium.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9815 - September 15, 2020, 11:26 AM

    Altara,

    Arabs and the Bible: why introduction by Syriac speaking people? What were the languages of people in the Negev and the Arabah ( the contact areas of the Hijaz)? We see written Greek and an Arabic substrate.

    Then there is also teh Damascus psalm fragment, first dated pre-islamic, now more likely 8th C (but no certainty). That's arabic written in Greek letters. Were does the Syriac come in?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9816 - September 15, 2020, 01:46 PM

    1/ Because the Quran attests of this Syriac/Aramaic path in its religious vocabulary and not the Greek one.
    2/The religious language of the Negev is the Greek one written by Arabs people:  Cf. R. Stroumsa, "Nessana papyri" very important thesis (in the internet...)
    3/ Pre Islamic Contact area of Hijaz have not (to my knowledge) monotheist religious inscriptions which could be linguistically traced since Arabic is a Semitic language like Syriac/Aramaic .
    Quote
    Then there is also teh Damascus psalm fragment, first dated pre-islamic, now more likely 8th C (but no certainty). That's arabic written in Greek letters. Were does the Syriac come in?

    Elaborate.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9817 - September 15, 2020, 04:57 PM

    Damascus psalm fragment (see Ahmad Jallad's work) is one of the psalms written in an Arabic identical to Quranic Arabic but in Greek script.

    At first it was thought to be pre-islamic and thus proof of the existence of a living and thriving Arabic in the Levant, also written in Greek alphabet. Thinking that through would in one go almost prove the Levantine origin of the Quran...

    Now rather the text is considered to be 8th C written by a community having taken over the language of the conquerors but not the script... Sounds a bit crazy? Well the 8th C scenario is the educated guess of the specialists.

    The relevance for the subject we are discussing is that Greek/Arabic  interaction was the norm in the Levant (as also Nessana proves). Van Putten says the Aramaic of the Quran is not the Syriac type but rather the older Aramaic type.

    All these reasons make me question the Syriac/Arabic linguistic link for the Quran...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9818 - September 15, 2020, 05:04 PM

    1/ Because the Quran attests of this Syriac/Aramaic path in its religious vocabulary and not the Greek one.

    Syriac/Aramaic path.....

     "religious vocabulary" ... means ... just ..Syriac/Aramaic   words  here & there in Quran .. or whole statements ??

    Quote
    2/The religious language of the Negev is the Greek one written by Arabs people:  Cf. R. Stroumsa, "Nessana papyri" very important thesis (in the internet...)

    People and Identities in Nessana. Pdf file  by Rachel Stroumsa

    Quote
    3/ Pre Islamic Contact area of Hijaz have not (to my knowledge) monotheist religious inscriptions which could be linguistically traced since Arabic is a Semitic language like Syriac/Aramaic .

     

    How about Hebrew Language?? is it far away from Arabic??

    on that "Syriac/Aramaic"... let me add this 2012 Robert Kerr publication  Aramaisms in Quran  And their Significance

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9819 - September 15, 2020, 10:52 PM

    Quote
    "religious vocabulary" ... means ... just ..Syriac/Aramaic   words  here & there in Quran .. or whole statements ??


     Just ..Syriac/Aramaic words  here & there in whole Arabic statements.

    Quote
    How about Hebrew Language?? is it far away from Arabic??


    Arabic is a Semitic language like Syriac/Aramaic/Hebrew  .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9820 - September 16, 2020, 09:37 AM

    Just ..Syriac/Aramaic words  here & there in whole Arabic statements.

    Arabic is a Semitic language like Syriac/Aramaic/Hebrew  .

      I agree Aramaic is the mother of many languages and gave birth to many languages ((That includes Hebrew)) of middle eastern tribes of ancient time before OT.,    but in spoken language/sounds which in fact is the way  these religious stories/songs/sonnets move around ....

    IS IT NOT HEBREW MORE CLOSER TO ARABIC THAN Aramaic??

    for  example ..



    how do we pronounce those words in Aramaic??  are the sounds of those words in Aramaic same/similar to  what  you see above for Hebrew and Arabic??

    THE FOREIGN VOCABULARY OF THE QURAN.PDF    by  ARTHUR JEFFERY, Ph.D.., Professor of Semitic Languages., School of Oriental Studies., Cairo., 1938  from Oriental Institute Baroda

    that is good book to scan through...

    Quote
    Arthur Jeffery (18 October 1892 in Melbourne – 2 August 1959 in South Milford, Nova Scotia, Canada) was a Protestant Australian professor of Semitic languages from 1921 at the School of Oriental Studies in Cairo, and from 1938 until his death jointly at Columbia University and Union Theological Seminary in New York City. He is the author of extensive historical studies of Middle Eastern manuscripts. His important works include Materials for the History of the Text of the Qur'an: The Old Codices, which catalogs all surviving documented variants of the orthodox Quran text; and The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an, which traces the origins of 318 foreign (non-Arabic) words found in the Qur'an

    Some of Jeffery's studies are included in The Origins of The Koran: Classic Essays on Islam’s Holy Book, edited by Ibn Warraq. They are also discussed in Mohar Ali's The Qur'an and The Orientalists:

     
    Books by Arthur Jeffery include:

    The Textual History of the Qur'an
    The Mystic Letters of the Koran
    A Variant Text of the Fatiha
    The Orthography of the Samarqand Codex
    Materials for the History of the Text of the Qur'an
    The Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an
    A Reader on Islam



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9821 - September 16, 2020, 02:31 PM

    A VARIANT TEXT OF THE FĀTIHA by  Arthur Jeffery. First published: April 1939



    well that is published in in this journal 


    Volume29, Issue2 April 1939 Pages 158-162

    well I must get it and read that... and that Journal  starts https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/loi/14781913  in 1910... 

    well scan through it...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9822 - September 16, 2020, 06:08 PM

    Interesting overview of Nabatean script:

    https://www.academia.edu/4587486/Languages_scripts_and_the_uses_of_writing_among_the_Nabataeans?email_work_card=title
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9823 - September 17, 2020, 09:47 AM

    Interesting overview of Nabatean script:


    hello mundi .. just curious about these manuscripts of bible in Arabic .from  St. Catherine’s monastery
    Quote
    A variety of Arabic MSS from the famous library
    at the St. Catherine’s monastery in the Sinai that include  portions of the New Testament have all been identified as  9th century works, including Sinai arab. 151, Sinai arab. 155,  Sinai arab. 154, Sinai arab. 70, Sinai arab. 72, Sinai arab. 73,  Sinai arab. 74, arpet (an Arabic codex of the Pauline Epistles),  and Gregory-Aland 0136 and 0137. These manuscripts (MSS)  or fragments have been studied by a variety of scholars;

    Probably the most famous of these Arabic texts, however, has  been Sinai arab. 154, which was ’discovered’ and studied by  Ms. Margaret Dunlop Gibson (2003 [1899]) during one of her visits to the St. Catherine’s monastery in 1893 ).

    I wonder about carbon dating of those manuscripts.. Just curious .,  are you familiar with those Arabic manuscripts?? 

    Manuscripts in St. Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai
    Quote


    https://www.loc.gov/resource/amedmonastery.00279386048-ms/?st=gallery



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9824 - September 17, 2020, 07:54 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1306351414097178624
    Quote
    The IQSA Abstracts are up, so here's my abstract! I've presented on this idea at Reading the Rasm II before, but it has now developed further, and I hope to to make a compelling case for my claims this year at the online IQSA meeting!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9825 - September 20, 2020, 10:09 PM

    Podcast: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/foreigncy/e/61335135
    Quote
    Safaitic
    In this episode of the podcast, I spoke with Dr. Ahmad Al-Jallad who is the Sofia Chair in Arabic Studies and an Associate Professor at Ohio State University. He is one of the foremost authorities on early Arabic and his work focuses on the languages and writing systems of pre-Islamic Arabia and the ancient Near East. The focus of our discussion was his work researching the Safaitic inscriptions, which are concentrated in the basalt desert of southern Syria and northern Jordan.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9826 - September 23, 2020, 10:57 AM

    Podcast: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/foreigncy/e/61335135
    Quote
    In this episode of the podcast,  Dr. Ahmad Al-Jallad  focuses on Safaitic inscriptions, .


    well on those two words let me add his 2017 publication  pdf file here

    An early Christian Arabic graffito mentioning ‘Yazıd the king


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9827 - September 23, 2020, 04:55 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/azforeman/status/1308567757210877953
    Quote
    I don't think the reading traditions "fail" at preserving the original dialect of the Qur'an. The very suggestion that they fail to do so implies that that is what they were attempting to do.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9828 - September 23, 2020, 05:04 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1308785504809299968
    Quote
    What a find! 2 lines of Arabic poetry - often cited in Abbasid-era belles lettres as being pre-Islamic and Christian - found north of Mt. Arafat near Mecca. It's dated (!) by the inscriber, Abū Jaʿfar ibn Ḥasan al-Hāshimī, to 98 A.H. (716-17 C.E.). Here's what it says..

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9829 - September 24, 2020, 08:29 AM

    Juan Cole - Infidel or Paganus? The Polysemy of kafara in the Quran

    https://www.academia.edu/44151347/Infidel_or_Paganus_The_Polysemy_of_kafara_in_the_Quran
    Quote
    This article explores the meaning of the root k-f-r in the Quran, questioning the practice of translating the noun kāfir as “infidel.” It argues for a distinction between the idiomatic phrasal verb kafara bi-, which does mean to reject or disbelieve, and the simple intransitive verb kafara and its deverbal nouns, which are used in the Quran in a large number of different ways. This polysemy is explored through contextual readings of Quran passages. It is argued that the noun kāfir, unlike the verb kafara, is used only with regard to adherents of traditional polytheism and is not deployed in an unmodified way with regard to Jews and Christians. The possible influence on the Arabic kafara of Greek and Latin conceptions is also broached.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9830 - September 24, 2020, 08:41 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/1308907662021713920
    Quote
    1/The author, @Ed_Husain, made a string of errors and specious arguments in this piece. The analysis of medieval Islamic history and philosophy on display is not only outdated, but quite amateurish. A quick thread and list of errata

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9831 - September 24, 2020, 03:17 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/1308907662021713920

    1/The author, @Ed_Husain, made a string of errors and specious arguments in this piece. The analysis of medieval Islamic history and philosophy ..............


    well it is OK to write tit bits on twitter but A STRONG REUTTAL ARTICLE AGAINST    THAT Ed_Husain's Lies of in Islamic history is more important., That is what you get when you get brainwashed from Islam of Land of pure...  any way let me put that article here.. delete some   junk from it

    On philosophy, renaissance and Saudi Arabia: Civilization in six points  by  Ed Husain  Tuesday 22 September 2020

    Quote
    The world will turn its attention to Saudi Arabia this year as the Kingdom hosts the Future Investment Initiative global conference under the theme of neo-Renaissance. Some will sneer: what do have Arabs to do with renaissance? I meet this arrogance and amnesia often. In fact, the Arabs have a long and rich history of civilization and renaissance. This history serves as a deep base on which to build a new future and lasting prosperity.

    Six points illustrate how the Arab world was central to civilization and renaissance throughout its history.

    First, the Arabs, even before Islam, always held the Greeks —forefathers of Western civilization—in high respect. It was Persia that attacked and repeatedly invaded ancient Athens and unleashed half a century of war. Seeking to add Greece to their empire, the Persians destroyed the original Acropolis, inspiration of art and architecture to this day. The Persians failed. The Arabs, however, from earliest times saw the Greeks as allies and family. Yunān (hence Ionian), forebear of the earliest Greeks, was believed to be the brother of Qaḥtān, ancestor of the Arabs.

    Greek reason, laws, ideas and institutions continued with the rise of Rome. Herodotus wrote warmly of the Arabs as traders, merchants, and a loyal people of civilisations, including that of the Nabatean Arabs in Petra. That cultural acceptance of the Arabs as natural allies and loyal citizens led to Philip the Arab (Marcus Arabus) becoming Emperor of Rome.

    The Persians were at war with Rome, too. The Roman-Iranian wars lasted for 700 years (54 B.C.-628 A.D.). If the West remains suspicious of Iran today, it is partly because of this long Iranian aggression dating back to antiquity.

    Quote
    Second, with the coming of Islam, the Prophet Muhammad found himself in Mecca during this long war between Iran and Rome. Famously, the Prophet sided with Rome: His pro-Persian pagan opponents mocked him for being a Roman ally. He owned a Roman shirt and believed in the sanctity of the Christian faith, by now the religion of Rome. He called to the principle of a rational belief in the one God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus, and firmly rejected Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism and the other pagan belief systems of Persia. The Arabian prophet created a community of committed monotheists.


    It was these Arabian believers that the Prophet molded in Mecca who went on to change the world and create civilizations. By the seventh and eighth centuries, Christianity became doctrinal and dogmatic, closed to philosophy and free inquiry. Tertullian, an early church father, asked dismissively “What does Jerusalem have to do with Athens?” Hardline Christians destroyed the academies of Greek philosophy in Athens and burned the libraries of Alexandria, killing Hypatia the Philosopher for her rejection of Christians. What Christianity closed, Arabian Muslims soon sought to open.

    Third, the Quran commands believers to read, reflect, think and ponder repeatedly throughout the text. That spirit gave birth to the first great Arab (PERSIAN)philosopher al-Kindi, who was then followed by others with undeniable Arab influences in their thinking and choice of Arabic for writing, including al-Farabi, Ibn Sina, Ibn Tufayl.(ALL PERSIANS)  Where Christians had dismissed Greek knowledge and wisdom as pagan, Muslim philosophers led a new Renaissance from al-Kindi and al-Fārābi to Ibn Khaldūn, of Yemeni Hadrami heritage, who cherished the words of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

    The court of the early Umayyads in Damascus was so eager to learn from and about the new peoples they had conquered in Syria and Egypt, that the Caliph Mu’awiya, a scribe and wise Meccan companion of the Prophet, held sessions of debate and discussion in court on history, theology and philosophy. The Umayyads happily absorbed Roman modes of governance as testified by their retention of Christian Roman civil servants, including Saint John of Damascus who wrote extensively of his experiences.

    Fourth, the Arabian believers did not wait to be attacked by the Persians as the Greeks and Romans before them, but took war and conquest successfully to Iran. That Islam rescued Iran from paganism and permanent warfare against the rest of the world is thanks to the Arabian Muslims that subdued a nation of long wars against Greece and Rome. Arabs and Islam now dominated large parts of the previous Byzantine and Persian territories and with that unity of faith came a new renaissance of inventions, science, confidence and books that shaped the world.
    Quote
    But the spirit of philosophy was not to last: The Persian mystic, Imam Ghazzali, declared Aristotelian philosophers of Islam to be disbelievers. That rejection of the free mind, critical intellect and philosophy was quickly institutionalised. But not so easily.


    Fifth, Ghazzali’s attempts to close the Muslim mind were rejected by the great jurist and philosopher, Ibn Rushd (famous in the Latin West as Averroes). Ibn Rushd wrote books, taught students and advised Spanish Muslim rulers making the case for philosophy as “ḥikmah,” wisdom, that Muslims are religiously obliged (“wajib”) to protect and pursue. Ibn Rushd’s greatest contribution to civilisation was not only that he refuted Ghazzali, but this great Arab philosopher found ways to reconcile reason and religion, two valid ways in which to seek truth. It was that method of reason and rational thought of Arabian philosophers that gave Andalusia eight hundred years of a booming civilisation, until 1492 when Jews and Muslims were expelled by Catholic monarchs Isabelle and Ferdinand. Ibn Rushd and the Muslims of Andalusia were descendants of Caliph Mu’awiya, the Umayyads. In the Muslim East, Arabs gave way to others to rule: ‘Abbasids, Seljuks, Mamlukes, Mughals, Ottomans. But in the Muslim West, Andalusia, Sicily and Portugal it was the Arabian spirit of Mecca that shone.

    Sixth, this renaissance of Muslims in Andalusia, shunned by the East, was fully embraced by two other religious civilizations: Catholicism and Judaism. The Judeo-Christian civilization that is the modern West is rooted in the rational methods of Arabian thinkers, particularly Ibn Rushd. In the universities of Paris, Padua and Oxford, ‘Latin Averroists’ emerged as those who saw, like the ancient Greeks, reason and philosophy can lead us to truth too. The Christian mind was now again open to philosophy in the form of the Scholastics. In Judaism, it was the great rabbi, Musa bin Maimun al-Qurtubi al-Israili (known as Maimonides) who merged Aristotelian philosophy with the Talmud. In our times, the great philosophers of the English-speaking world, Bertrand Russell, Leo Strauss and Roger Scruton acknowledge the Western debt to Arab Muslim civilisations in the West.

    What the Arabians gave to the West and Israel, Saudi Arabia should now reclaim and revive at home and abroad again. The neo-Renaissance is rooted in this deep history of open-minded Arabians from Mecca that rekindled what Spinoza called the ‘natural light of reason,’ to strengthen our faith in God with use of our intellect—not sheepish adherence to fatwas of clerics and ayatollahs who forbid Aristotelian philosophy of critical thinking. Adam Smith wrote his “Wealth of Nations” with observations of human behaviour and rational choices in the markets that are identical to the Arabian sociologist Ibn Khaldun.

    For Saudi Arabia to promote the ‘natural light of reason’ in its neo-Renaissance is to fulfil what its ancestors did for humanity previously for many centuries. Prosperity comes from philosophy: the harmony between reason and religion. Doubt me? Read Ibn Rushd and then Adam Smith. Where Saudi Arabia leads, 1.8 billion Muslims will follow.


    that is penned along with this good looking painting



    well but you make money if you write such lies... EARLY  ISLAMIC HISTORY IS FULL OF LIES  & FULL OF STORIES  but I wonder about that painting.. who painted it and when?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9832 - September 24, 2020, 08:22 PM

    Some more comments on that article: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1309174867359682560
    Quote
    This essay is perhaps one of the most vile, misleading historical essays that I have had the misfortune to read in a while. Hats off to @bdaiwi_historia for taking it apart.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9833 - September 25, 2020, 09:52 AM

    Hahaha! I did not get that it was published ... It is counter history... Nihil nove sub sole...The Quran do the same with the story of Jesus Wink
    The slow exit of whahabism decided by MBS... Anthony did not get it...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9834 - September 25, 2020, 03:24 PM

    Hahaha! I did not get that it was published ... It is counter history......................


    well don't get me wrong on what I said in the above post., Ed Husain is a great guy  and he is NOT a historian., It is just that we do stupid things in the name of faith when we are young., It is NOT the problem of the kids in Islam ., it is brain washing from Islam Preaching SCOUNDRELS...., (NOT ALL)

    Quote
    Ed Husain is author of The House of Islam: A Global History and doctoral .researcher at the University of Buckingham Ed Husain is author of The House of Islam: A Global History and doctoral researcher at the University of Buckingham. He has also served as a senior adviser to former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair. Ed founded the world's first counter-extremism think tank, Quilliam, in 2008, and has advised government leaders and policy makers around the world.



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9835 - September 25, 2020, 04:50 PM


    Quote
    About The House of Islam

    'Not just timely but important too. Ed Husain does not just set out the fundamentals of Islam as a religion but explains how and why understanding it properly matter. This should be compulsory reading' Peter Frankopan, author of The Silk Roads

    A fascinating and revelatory exploration of the intricacies of Islam and the inner psyche of the Muslim world from the bestselling author of The Islamist

    'Islam began as a stranger,' said the Prophet Mohammed, 'and one day, it will again return to being a stranger.'

    The gulf between Islam and the West is widening. A faith rich with strong values and traditions, observed by nearly two billion people across the world, is seen by the West as something to be feared rather than understood. Sensational headlines and hard-line policies spark enmity, while ignoring the feelings, narratives and perceptions that preoccupy Muslims today.

    Wise and authoritative, The House of Islam seeks to provide entry to the minds and hearts of Muslims the world over. It introduces us to the fairness, kindness and mercy of Mohammed; the aims of sharia law, through commentary on scripture, to provide an ethical basis to life; the beauty of Islamic art and the permeation of the divine in public spaces; and the tension between mysticism and literalism that still threatens the House of Islam.

    The decline of the Muslim world and the current crises of leadership mean that a glorious past, full of intellectual nobility and purpose, is now exploited by extremists and channelled into acts of terror. How can Muslims confront the issues that are destroying Islam from within, and what can the West do to help work towards that end?

    Ed Husain expertly and compassionately guides us through the nuances of Islam and its people, contending that the Muslim world need not be a stranger to the West, nor its enemy, but a peaceable ally.


    Quote
    “Not just timely but important too. In The House of Islam, Ed Husain does not just set out the fundamentals of Islam as a religion but explains how and why understanding it properly matter. This should be compulsory reading” Peter Frankopan, author of 'The Silk Roads',

    “The House of Islam is a long awaited and desperately needed book from one of our foremost thinkers at the nexus of civil society and theology ... Incisive and thought-provoking” –  Bruce Hoffman, author of 'Inside Terrorism','

    “A powerful and impassioned polemic ... This is strong stuff. And it is a compelling thesis from a British Muslim writer whose relationship with Islam has evolved dramatically over time” –  Justin Marozzi, Sunday Times'

    “A nuanced study ... An account of the compassion, reason and wonderment that Islam has exhibited for much of its history, this book is a powerful corrective to the widespread perception, fostered by jihadis and Islamophobes alike, that it's a belief system for misanthropes ... Husain has written a valuable book” –  Guardian'

    “The House of Islam is a plea for the renewal of classical, traditional Islam against its extreme and politicised versions … For anyone interested in the future of Islam, both in Britain and the Islamic world, this is an important book” –  David Goodhart, The Times'

    “All who glibly generalise about the no-man's-land between terrorism and multiculturalism should read this articulate and impassioned book” –  Simon Jenkins, Sunday Times'

    “Wonderful … Husain has been on quite a journey. A British Muslim of Bengali heritage, he was radicalised as a student and spent five years with militants. He eventually grew away from extremism by rediscovering the Sufi ways of his fathers, and the book is a beautiful homage to that tradition” –  Daniel Hannan, Sunday Telegraph'

    “Husain has a knack for explaining complicated matters in straightforward layman's language” –  Financial Times'

    “Husain's account is not sensationalist, tending more to understatement than to hyperbole ... A complete eye-opener” –  Praise for 'The Islamist', The Times'

    “Captivating, and terrifyingly honest ... a wake-up call to monocultural Britain, it takes you into the mind of young fundamentalists, exposing places in which the old notion of being British is defunct” –  Praise for 'The Islamist', Observer'

    “Persuasive and stimulating” –  Praise for 'The Islamist', Martin Amis,'

    “Given that this is a battle that concerns us all, let us hope that it will be won by Husain and those who share his views” –  Standpoint'



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9836 - September 26, 2020, 02:59 PM

    A VARIANT TEXT OF THE FĀTIHA by  Arthur Jeffery. First published: April 1939

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Volume29, Issue2 April 1939 Pages 158-162[/center]
    ............................

     what am I reading ?? So  that 1939  publication of Arthur Jeffery  interested me some time back because of those first few words  " Sura I of the Koran bears on its face evidence that it was not originally part of the text"

    Well Quran is such a book., its words are problems .. surah names are problems and and surah order of  alleged revelations is a problem... its stories have problem in them and its so-called SCIENTIFIC KNOWLDEG IS also a problem.,  now Arthur Jeffery adds  new problem that so-called "surah-1 bears on its face evidence that  it was not originally part of the text,"

    well Reading Quran.. verse by verse every verse.. chapter by chapter every chapter ., in series.. in parallel  .. here and there   making its message slowly clear and clear., it is indeed a tough book..., anyways .. so Arthur Jeffery on surah-1 says this

    Quote
    A Variant Text of the Fatiha

    Sura I of the Koran bears on its face evidence that it was not originally part of the text, but was a prayer composed to be placed at the head of the assembled volume, to be recited before reading the book, a custom not unfamiliar to us from other sacred books of the Near East. The Koranic style, as is well known, is that in it from beginning to end, Allah is addressing man. In the Fatiha, however, it is man addressing Allah, and the common explanation that the word "Say!" is to be understood at its beginning, is obviously due to the desire to bring this first sura into harmony with the style of the rest of book. The sura, moreover, when we examine it, proves to be more or less a cento of ideas and expressions taken from other parts of the Koran. It is possible, of course, that as a prayer it was constructed by the Prophet himself, but its use and its position in our present Koran are due to the compilers, who placed it there, perhaps on the fly leaf of the standard codex. Its division into seven members in orthodox Muslim tradition has suggested the idea that it was put together as an Islamic counterpart to the Lord's Prayer.

    The peculiar nature of the Fatiha has been recognized by Western scholars1 from Nöldeke downward, but it is not merely a hostile Western opinion, for Fakhr ad-Din ar-Razi2 quotes Abu Bakr al-Asamm (313)3 as saying that he considered it not to be part of the Koran and apparently the oldest commentaries began with Surat-al-Baqara. It is also well-known that the Fatiha was not included in the codex of Ibn Mas'ud.4 It is said that some early Kufic manuscripts of the Koran are to be found which commence with the second sura, and if they have the Fatiha, have it only at the end; but the present writer has never seen such an examplar.

    It should not surprise us then if the Fatiha should have been handed down in somewhat different forms. One such variant form has for long circulated in Shi'a circles. In the Tadhkirat al-A'imma of Muhammad Baqir Majlisi (edition of Tehran, 1331, p. 18) it is given:

    Nuhammidu 'llaha, Rabba 'l-alamina,
    'r-rahmana 'r-rahi ma,
    Mallaka yaumi'd - dini,
    Hayyaka na'budu wa wiyyaka nasta i nu,
    Turshidu sabi la'l - mustaqi mi,
    Sabi la 'lladhi na na' 'amta 'alaihim,
    Siwa 'l - maghdu bi 'alaihim, wa la'd - dall i na,
    which we may translate:
    We greatly praise Allah, Lord of the worlds,
    the Merciful, the Compassionate,
    He who has possession of the Day of Judgement. 
    Thee do we worship, and on Thee do we call for help.
    Thou dost direct to the path of the Upright One,
    The path of those to whom Thou hast shown favor,
    Not that of those with whom Thou are angered, or those who go astray,

    Last summer in Cairo, I came across a similar variant version. It is given in a little manual of Fiqh, whose beginning, unfortunately, is missing, so that we do not know the name of the author. It is a quite unimportant summary of Shafi'i Fiqh, written, if one may venture a judgement from the writing, about one hundred and fifty years ago, perhaps a little earlier, in a clerkly hand, and the variant version is written on the inside cover under the rubric - qira'a shadhdha li 'l - Fatiha. The manuscript is in private possession, and though the owner was willing to let me copy the passage, and use it if I saw fit, he was not willing that his name be revealed, lest he come into disrepute among his orthodox neighbors for allowing an unbeliever to see such an uncanonical version of the opening sura of their Holy Book.

    The text of this variant has certain similarities to that already given, and runs:

    Bismi' llahi 'r - rahmani 'r - rahimi.
    Al-hamdu li 'llahi, Sayyidi 'l - alamina,
    'r - razzaqi 'r - rahimi,
    Mallaki yaumi 'd - dini,
    Inna laka na' budu was inna laka nasta' I nu.
    Arshidna sabi la 'l - mustaqi mi,
    Sahi la 'lladhi na mananta 'alaihim,
    Siwa 'l - maghdubi 'alaihim, wa ghaira'd - dallina.
    which, being interpreted, means:
    In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
    Praise be to Allah! Lord of the worlds,
    The Bountiful, the Compassionate,
    He who has possession of the Day of Judgment,
    As for us, to Thee do we worship, and to Thee we turn for help,
    Direct us to the path of the Upright one,
    The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed favors,
    Not that of those with whom Thou art angered,
    Nor that of those who go astray.

    Under the text follows the statement: Riwayat Abi 'l- Fathi 'l-Jubba'i 'an shaikhihi's -Susi 'an an-Nahrazwani 'an Abi 's Sa' adati 'l - Maidani 'an al - Marzubani 'an al - Khalil b. Ahmad.

    On the readings in the two texts we may note: Sayyid for Rabb is merely a case of replacement by synonym. Sayyid is used in Sura xii: 25 for Joseph's master down in Egypt, and in iii: 34 of John the Baptist, who is announced as a sayyid, a chaste one, and a prophet, and the plural form is used in xxxiii: 67 for the chiefs whom the infidels followed and were led astray. It is not, however used of Allah.

    Ar-razzaq occurs as a title of Allah in li: 58 - inna 'llaha huwa 'r - razzaq.

    Mallak is a reading attributed to the third Kufan Reader among the Seven, al-Kisa'i (180), cf al-Alusi, Ruhu'l - Ma'ani, I, 78 and Abu Hayyan, Bahr, I, 20. It is curious that both the variant texts agree in this reading. Mallak is perhaps more precise and emphatic than the alternative forms malik, mŻalik and mali 'k, the first of which is perhaps the best attested reading, and the second is the TR [textus receptus "accepted text".]

    Inna laka. This, and hiyyaka, wiyyaka, ayyaka, iyaka and the iyyaka of the TR, seem all to be independent attempts to interpret the unvoweled, unpointed skeleton term that stood in the original codex. Hiyyaka or hayyaka was the reading of Abu's-Sawwar al-Ghanawi (c. 180) and Abu'l Mutawakkil (102); wiyyaka or wayyaka was read by Abu Raja' (105).
    Arshidna means much the same as the ihdina of the TR and was the reading in Ibn Mas'ud's codex (az-Zamakhshari in loc., and Ibn Khalawaih, p. 1) This imperative does not occur elsewhere in the Koran, but other forms from the root are commonly used, and the Shi'a variant is uses the imperfect of Form IV.

    Sahil is a commoner word than the sirat of the TR, and is much more commonly used in the Koran, though both are foreign words, borrowed through the Aramaic. Sirata'l-mustaqim, taking it as in idafa, where al Mustaqim is a title of Allah, i.e.-, "the Upright One", was the reading of Ubai, Ja'far as-Sadiq and Abdallah b. 'Umar, so that it has very early and good attestation. It is a possible and appropriate reading, even though Mustaqim is not one of the Ninety-nine Names. That sabi la'l - mustaqimshould occur in both these texts is curious.

    Mananta and na' 'amta are simple replacements by synonym for they do not affect the meaning. Form IV of n'm is more common in the Koran than Form II, which is used only once in lxxxix: 14, but manna, with much the same meaning, is used still more often.

    Siwa or ghair is a similar replacement by synonym, though siwa is not used elsewhere in the Koran.
    Ghair for la was the reading of 'Umar, Ali, Ubai, Ibn, az-Zubair, 'Ikrima and al-Aswad among the early codices, and was supported by Ja'far as-Sadiq and Zaid b. 'Ali, so that it has respectable authority for a claim to be the original reading. It makes no change in the sense.

    It will have been noticed that the sense of the Fatiha is precisely the same whether we read the TR or either of these variants. There is no ascertainable reason for the variant readings. They are not alterations in the interests of smoother grammatical construction or of clarity, nor do they seem to have any doctrinal significance. They are just such variants as one might expect in the transmission of a prayer at first preserved in an oral form, and then fixed later when the Koran was assembled.

    The second variant form comes from Khalil b. Ahmad, who as a Reader belonged to the Basran School though he is said to have taken huruf from both 'Asim of Kufa and Ibn Kathir of Mecca, among the seven, and is even noted as the one who transmitted the variant ghaira from Ibn Kathir (Abu Hayyan, Bahr, 29; Ibn al-Jazari Tahaqat I, 177, 275; Ibn Khalawaih, p. 1). But he was also known to have transmitted from 'Isa b. 'Umar (149) (Ibn Khallikan, II,420) and was a pupil of Ayyub as-Sakhtiyani (131), both of whom were Basrans and famous for the transmission of uncanonical readings. It is thus quite possible that Khalil had access to good old tradition as to the primitive reading of the Fatiha. I can make nothing of the rest of the isnad from Kalil to al-Jubba'i, and possibly it is much later than the matn from Khalil.

    1 Nöldeke-Schwally, Geschichte des Qorans, I, 110.

    2 Matafatib al-Ghaib, V. 281.

    3 Ibn al-Jazari Tabaqat, No. 3943 (vol. ii, p. 404). He was Imam of the mosque at Wasit, and a great authority on the isnads of the Kufan reader 'Asim, and one of the teachers of Abu Bakr an-Naqqash.

    4 'Abu 'Ubaid, Fada 'il, fol. 434. That Ibn Mas'ud knew the Fatiha as used liturgically, however, is clear not only from the fact that we have several variants in it from him (see the present writer's Materials fo the History of the Text of the Qur'an, p. 25), but also from the story coming from al-A'mash (148) that Ibn Mas'ud was asked why he did not include the Fatiha in his codex, and he answered that if he had included it he would have put it in front of every sura (Qurtubi, Al-Jami'li Ahkam al-Qur'an, I, 115). This statement shows quite clearly that he considered it to be a liturgical piece to be recited before reading the Koran. Late copies of Ibn Mas'ud's codex, made in the next generation or two, added the Fatiha at the beginning (Itqan, 152, 187; Fihrist, 26).


    well  I don't know what is truth and what is NOT truth.. allah knows the best.,     but now no time  to read it carefully , So ...... again that is published in The Muslim World, Volume 29 (1939), pp. 158-162 I will read it again and edit that pub just keeping the nuggets in the post .

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9837 - September 28, 2020, 11:33 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1310679854656950279
    Quote
    Great conversation between @dbru1 and Asma Hilali about quranic manuscripts but to me one detail remained a bit vague, it is addressed in the title: "Did the Quran exist early as a book?"

    The answer to this should, unequivocally be: Yes. Yes it did.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_title&time_continue=241&v=fQT4mWsmOmg
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9838 - September 29, 2020, 08:57 AM

     
    Thank zeca., that is a very important interview...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQT4mWsmOmg

    and her both books  gives important clues on what is missing in early Islamic literature





    As far as that question
    Quote
    "Did the Quran exist early as a book?"

    The answer to this should, unequivocally be: Yes. Yes it did.

    well that is tough question .. and answer is vague without  proper investigation., that answer fits well may be to the Quran BOOK of 10th century...  and after that...

    but How early ?  what year it became a book ?  what has been added in to Quran after it became a book is also an important investigative aspect of that question.,  anyways here is new book from Shady Nasser at Harvard ....... The Second Canonization of the Qurʾān (324/936)


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9839 - September 29, 2020, 05:48 PM

    Segovia (who has totally abandoned Islamic studies...):
    https://www.academia.edu/32390786/Remapping_Emergent_Islam_Texts_Social_Settings_and_Ideological_Trajectories_2020_Edited_Volume
    "Remapping Emergent Islam
    This multidisciplinary volume aims at moving forward the scholarly discussion
    on Islam’s origins by paying attention to three domains – textual,
    social, and ideological – whose intersections need to be examined afresh
    to get a more-or-less clear picture of the concurrent phenomena that made
    possible the emergence of a new religious identity and the progressive
    delimitation of its initially fuzzy boundaries. It therefore deals with the
    renewed analysis of a number of key texts, social contexts, and ideological
    developments relevant for the study of Islam’s beginnings – taking the latter
    expression in its broadest possible sense. More specifically, the essays in this
    volume explore: (1) the multi-vectorised socio-cultural milieux in which the
    early quranic movement might have gradually taken shape, as well as their
    multi-layered ideological frameworks, which are the subject of chapters
    1–4; and (2) the various ways in which its identity was measured, narrated,
    and encrypted – i.e. directly or indirectly thematised – within and beyond
    the Qur’ān itself, on which, in turn, chapters 5–9 offer renewed insights.
    No unifying pattern in terms of methodology and style has been imposed
    on the authors’ creativity. Intentionally. For selecting different accoutrements
    when disembarking on a continent still lacking any precise cartography risks
    different perceptions of its landscape, which cannot be totalised beforehand.
    Furthermore, the pretension that such cartography exists, and that such
    totality must be taken for granted at the very outset of the exploration, is
    what this volume would like to question. [...]"
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