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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9660 - August 18, 2020, 08:49 AM
    So on point -1 which is  about Quran manuscripts and is  more important to me  over that  Mecca/Muhammad/Madina/Mosques   all zam-zam water  story   
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 18, 2020, 07:58 AM

    1)  Quran  the book and Quran  early manuscripts
     


    So Marc S.,    Questions on Quran..

    would you  consider Quran Manuscripts are older than the present book Quran  and Quran the book is much older than those hadith volumes??

    do you think., Muhammad and Mecca of Quran is same as  Mecca and Muhammad of  Hadith ?

    and why give importance to hadith in Islam and in Islamic history?? what early Islam you see/extract from hadith??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9661 - August 18, 2020, 12:44 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 18, 2020, 07:46 AM
    You forget that, for the Master narrative, those installed in Damascus since 636 were the enemies of the Prophet and that they falsely converted :
    I take muslim tradition as plausible when it does not concern Mecca/Kaba.  I think that when Abbassid writers tells that those installed in Damascus since 636 were the enemies of the Prophet and that they falsely converted I think they wrote this because they believed (in good faith) that it was historical. Was it?


    You really think they believe this is historical , Who tell them this then ?

    Unfortunately for your theory, when Ibn Ishaq wrote the Sira, he left clues that show he didn't believe in what he was writing ; therefore, no they didn't believe in good faith about what they were telling ; they knew they were making stories up.

    Quote
    They had the Umayyad wiped out. They did not need to build a fake story to get legitimacy.


    They did hence why they said they were related to the prophet by blood ; otherwise, why say this unless you tell me they believed this in good faith or this was the historical truth.

    Quote
    It is you who need this story of " build their legitimacy above everyone, they couldn't cut off the link with the Umayyads in the building of the Muhammad legend" to fit your theory about the Quran.


    I need no story ; I am just reading the course of events ; the Arab invasion has its roots in the Muhammad legend ; therefore, non muslims couldn't have been the conquerors ; at the same time, as blood was shed between Umayyads and Abassids, an explanation needed to be given for this and therefore the Umayyads needed to have their muslimness tore down.

    Quote
    The legend of Muhammad predates the Abbassids tells the Abbassids themselves. You still did not see who has taken this story from his hat.


    Question is who was that Muhammad exactly ? a clue : not the one from the tradition.

    Quote
    Not only (there's papyri...) Check them.


    Again, no papyrus mention Mecca as the destination of pilgrimmage at the time of Abd Al Malik so, that there was a pilgrimmage I don't dispute that, I only dispute your saying that it was Mecca centric at the time of Abd Al Malik after he defeated Ibn Az Zubayr; so far you haven't given any proof of your assumptions and the documents you are pointing me too don't hold that information neither. So, apart from the muslim tradition, I don't see how you can be so sure of this.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9662 - August 18, 2020, 12:47 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 18, 2020, 07:58 AM
    on point-3  Marc S says Hadith  is important for what??


    They are important for the muslim tradition ; without ahadith, you know nothing about Muhammad and his life and also the quaranic revelations.

    Do those ahadith contain historical events ? Maybe but, if they do, there are not many and it will be almost impossible to dig them out.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9663 - August 18, 2020, 12:55 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 18, 2020, 08:30 AM
    Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām of present  Mecca    was built around 749/750 by   the   first Abbassid dynasty??

    I think the site was chosen under the Abbassids yes and therefore the haram was built thereafter ; I locate those events between the beginning of the first Abassid ruler and the end of Ibn Ishaq 's life so between 750 and 767.

    Quote
    and The Humeima (( old Nabataean city  ancient Hawara)_  mosque   was built in 699  ....

     I am not the one who brought up this mosk ; it was Mundi ; the only thing was that he said it dates back from 630 while I was able to find 699 for the building of that mosk.

    Quote
    So assuming those dates are correct then.,   don't you think Muhammad of Quranic Mecca  and Islam of Quran is different from Islam of these towns  during Abbassid regime??

    After all  Quran MANUSCRIPTS   were published way earlier than  these Mosques... 

     would it not tell us  that ., Mecca and Muhammad of Quran(whose names are hardly mentioned in Quran)  are different from  Mecca and Muhammad of   Abbassid regime  / hadith  story Mecca and Muhammad??


    There is one mention of Mecca by name in the Quran in 48:24 and I have seen some Quran based only muslims disputing that it relates to a town called  Mecca or even a location (this verse mentionning the valley of Mecca) ; they argue that it ties up with the arabic root mkk that means destroy (and they translate it as "in the midst of destruction" instead of "in the valley of Mecca") ; I can't say if they are right or wrong on this one but I do know that his verse hardly ties up with the events it is supposed to be related to in the Sira  ; therefore, there is no Mecca in the Quran for me.

    For Muhammad, his 4 mentions by name are just as mysterious and don't give any clue to what it refers to.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9664 - August 18, 2020, 12:58 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on August 18, 2020, 12:44 PM
    Again, no papyrus mention Mecca as the destination of pilgrimmage at the time of Abd Al Malik so, that there was a pilgrimmage I don't dispute that, I only dispute your saying that it was Mecca centric at the time of Abd Al Malik after he defeated Ibn Az Zubayr; so far you haven't given any proof of your assumptions and the documents you are pointing me too don't hold that information neither. So, apart from the muslim tradition, I don't see how you can be so sure of this.


    For readers following this here’s Petra Sijpesteijn writing about the papyri:

    An Early Umayyad Papyrus Invitation for the Ḥajj
    Quote
    Some time between 86/705 and 99/717, Sahl b. ‘Abd al-‘Azīz wrote a letter to ‘Uqba b. Muslim, conveying a message from the amīr al-mu’minīn, the caliph. The caliph, Sahl wrote, had announced that the time had come to make the pilgrimage, the ḥajj, and had exhorted all Muslims to do so. Sahl urged ‘Uqba, if he was able, to join him on the pilgrimage and to bring Sahl’s camels with him, bearing the costs for one camel himself.

    This letter, written on papyrus, was found in Egypt,  where both men were probably living at the time it was sent, and it is now housed in the Oriental Institute Museum collection at the University of Chicago. It is the earliest documentary evidence for the ḥajj  currently known, and offers important insight into the significance and meaning of the Muslim pilgrimage at the time of its composition.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9665 - August 18, 2020, 12:58 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 18, 2020, 08:49 AM
    would you  consider Quran Manuscripts are older than the present book Quran  and Quran the book is much older than those hadith volumes??


    Coran is older than ahadith books for sure ; I don't understand what you mean with " Quran Manuscripts are older than the present book Quran" ; it seems obvious the answer is yes.

    Quote

    do you think., Muhammad and Mecca of Quran is same as  Mecca and Muhammad of  Hadith ?


    See my reply to your points 1&2

    Quote
    and why give importance to hadith in Islam and in Islamic history?? what early Islam you see/extract from hadith??


    See my reply to your point 1
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9666 - August 18, 2020, 01:00 PM
    Quote from: zeca on August 18, 2020, 12:58 PM
    For readers following this here’s Petra Sijpesteijn writing about the papyri:

    An Early Umayyad Papyrus Invitation for the Ḥajj


    Thanks Zeca.
    I know Altara is refering to this papyrus but Mecca is not mentionned here and we don't know the geographical location of this Hajj.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9667 - August 18, 2020, 01:20 PM
    Yes, and to be fair Sijpesteijn isn’t definite about the papyrus referring to Mecca.

    Quote
    Our sources indicate that the ceremonies of the ḥajj and even the location at which they were performed were not fixed in the earliest period of Islam. The hajj al-bayt was apparently undertaken under the early Umayyad caliphs to several holy sites at which circumambulation around a sacred stone was practiced.
    […]
    After the second fitna, when our papyrus was written, the importance of the pilgrimage to Mecca only increased, making it the most likely goal of our pilgrims Sahl and ‘Uqba

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9668 - August 18, 2020, 03:59 PM
    Quote
    Thanks Zeca.
    I know Altara is refering to this papyrus but Mecca is not mentionned here and we don't know the geographical location of this Hajj.



    I agree with you here Marc. The payrus is Egyptian. That means that the hajj to Mecca would be a +- 1200 km treck through the desert. The content is more apropriate to go to the local Market than a hajj at that distance. I think this papyrus is more proof of the localisation of different hajjes than the focus being Mecca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9669 - August 18, 2020, 04:34 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: mundi on August 18, 2020, 03:59 PM

    I agree with you here Marc. The payrus is Egyptian. That means that the hajj to Mecca would be a +- 1200 km treck through the desert. The content is more apropriate to go to the local Market than a hajj at that distance. I think this papyrus is more proof of the localisation of different hajjes than the focus being Mecca.

    Quote from: zeca on August 18, 2020, 01:20 PM
    Yes, and to be fair Sijpesteijn isn’t definite about the papyrus referring to Mecca.




    well .. all is good .. but I wish she should NOT have written this in that pub on that page 185.....

    but she is a very good researcher of history of Islam...
    Quote
    The ḥajj  is every individual Muslim’s responsibility as expressed in God’s command: “Pilgrimage to the House (bayt ) is a duty for all who are able to makethe journey (Q 3:97).” 46 Legal and religious texts writ-ten down from the end of the second/eighth centuryonwards set out in detail the ceremonies pilgrims were(and still are) to undertake in Mecca and its immedi-ate surroundings, basing their prescriptions on the way the prophet Muḥammad himself performed theserituals during his “farewell pilgrimage” in the year10/632, but also in details provided in the Qur’ān (for example Q 2:196–203 and 22:27–36).


    those verses are NOTHING TO DO WITH  PRESENT Mecca..

     
    Quote
    Q 3:97    In it are clear signs, the standing place of Ibrahim, and whoever enters it shall be secure, and pilgrimage to the House is incumbent upon men for the sake of Allah, (upon) every one who is able to undertake the journey to it; and whoever disbelieves, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient, above any need of the worlds.

    Quote
    Q 2:196–203 ...

    Q 2:196  ....And accomplish the pilgrimage and the visit for Allah, but if, you are prevented, (send) whatever offering is easy to obtain, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination; but whoever among you is sick or has an ailment of the head, he (should effect) a compensation by fasting or alms or sacrificing, then when you are secure, whoever profits by combining the visit with the pilgrimage (should take) what offering is easy to obtain; but he who cannot find (any offering) should fast for three days during the pilgrimage and for seven days when you return; these (make) ten (days) complete; this is for him whose family is not present in the Sacred Mosque, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

    The pilgrimage is (performed in) the well-known months; so whoever determines the performance of the pilgrimage therein, there shall be no intercourse nor fornication nor quarrelling amongst one another; and whatever good you do, Allah knows it; and make provision, for surely the provision is the guarding of oneself, and be careful (of your duty) to Me, O men of understanding

    There is no blame on you in seeking bounty from your Lord, so when you hasten on from "Arafat", then remember Allah near the Holy Monument, and remember Him as He has guided you, though before that you were certainly of the erring ones.

    Then hasten on from the Place from which the people hasten on and ask the forgiveness of Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    So when you have performed your devotions, then laud Allah as you lauded your fathers, rather a greater lauding. But there are some people who say, Our Lord! give us in the world, and they shall have no resting place.

    And there are some among them who say: Our Lord! grant us good in this world and good in the hereafter, and save us from the chastisement of the fire.

    They shall have (their) portion of what they have earned, and Allah is swift in reckoning.

    Q 2:203: .... And laud Allah during the numbered days; then whoever hastens off in two days, there is no blame on him, and whoever remains behind, there is no blame on him, (this is) for him who guards (against evil), and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you shall be gathered together to Him.


      Q 22:27–36 

    Quote
    Q 22:27 ..........And proclaim among men the Pilgrimage: they will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, coming from every remote path,

       That they may witness advantages for them and mention the name of Allah during stated days over what He has given them of the cattle quadrupeds, then eat of them and feed the distressed one, the needy.

       Then let them accomplish their needful acts of shaving and cleansing, and let them fulfil their vows and let them go round the Ancient House

    That (shall be so); and whoever respects the sacred ordinances of Allah, it is better for him with his Lord; and the cattle are made lawful for you, except that which is recited to you, therefore avoid the uncleanness of the idols and avoid false words,

    Being upright for Allah, not associating aught with Him and whoever associates (others) with Allah, it is as though he had fallen from on high, then the birds snatch him away or the wind carries him off to a far-distant place.

    That (shall be so); and whoever respects the signs of Allah, this surely is (the outcome) of the piety of hearts.

    You have advantages in them till a fixed time, then their place of sacrifice is the Ancient House.

    And to every nation We appointed acts of devotion that they may mention the name of Allah on what He has given them of the cattle quadrupeds; so your god is One God, therefore to Him should you submit, and give good news to the humble,

    To) those whose hearts tremble when Allah is mentioned, and those who are patient under that which afflicts them, and those who keep up prayer, and spend (benevolently) out of what We have given them.

    And (as for) the camels, We have made them of the signs of the religion of Allah for you; for you therein is much good; therefore mention the name of Allah on them as they stand in a row, then when they fall down eat of them and feed the poor man who is contented and the beggar; thus have We made them subservient to you, that you may be grateful.


     
    only brainwashed fools consider that those verses represent the prayer place at present Mecca... .

    A historian should not write such words.. Reading such words in a publication A novice Muslim reader  will immediately say   "Oh western researcher also reinforce  Mecca.. Medina .. Muhammad.. Zam..zam....."  .... hence Islamic history that was told umpteen times in home as well as in madrassa must be true......
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9670 - August 18, 2020, 04:46 PM
    Quote
    You really think they believe this is historical ,Who tell them this then ?


    Yes. I think this guys believed that what they recounted was historically true. For one good reason: What they recounted was their explication of the existence of the Quran they had before their eyes.

    Quote
    Unfortunately for your theory, when Ibn Ishaq wrote the Sira, he left clues that show he didn't believe in what he was writing ;

    Ibn Ishaq for us has wrote nothing. It is Hicham (d. 830). Ibn Hicham has predecessors about the life of the prophet.

    Quote
    therefore, no they didn't believe in good faith about what they were telling ; they knew they were making stories up.


    I'm not convinced.

    Quote
    They did hence why they said they were related to the prophet by blood ;

    One thing is to recount this to the masses, another is to build an epic romance to say the same thing (Mecca/Kaba...) Shia says that Ali is the cousin of the Prophet: Shia now believe it.  It is of course a lie. Ali  was an Arab leader in al Hira.

    Quote
    otherwise, why say this unless you tell me they believed this in good faith or this was the historical truth.


    That they were related by blood is propaganda for themselves;  you mixes two things here which are not tied : 1/ their own stuff and what they recount about the Quran (Sira litterature) These are two different things .

    Quote
    I am just reading the course of events ; the Arab invasion has its roots in the Muhammad legend ;


    Not for me.

    The legend of Muhammad predates the Abbassids tells the Abbassids themselves. You still did not see who has taken this story from his hat.


    Quote
    Question is who was that Muhammad exactly ? a clue : not the one from the tradition.


    It was no one. Only 4 times in Quranic texts.
    Quote
    Again, no papyrus mention Mecca as the destination of pilgrimmage at the time of Abd Al Malik so, that there was a pilgrimmage I don't dispute that, I only dispute your saying that it was Mecca centric at the time of Abd Al Malik after he defeated Ibn Az Zubayr;

     

    Yes, that is what I think. Because the one who make emerge the "Quranic Muhammad " taken as the one to whom God addressed is Zubayr : 685 Bishapur coin.Muhammad  rasul Allah.

    Quote
    so far you haven't given any proof of your assumptions and the documents you are pointing me too don't hold that information neither. So, apart from the muslim tradition, I don't see how you can be so sure of this.


    I'm not sure. I consider I'm rather right view the stuff. Muslim tradition is useful when it recounts things which does not serve the Master narrative. I have not reason to not examine what it have to say ; and here, the fact that the papyri does not mention Mecca, yes ... It does not mention Jerusalem or whatever as well.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9671 - August 18, 2020, 04:59 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 18, 2020, 04:46 PM

    It was no one. Only 4 times in Quranic texts.


    Hello Altara .. yes it is only 4 times that name is mentioned in Quran apart from Ahmad....


    how would you explain those 4+1 Muhammad word in Quran.. also there are plenty indirect stories  that many verses in Quran  refer to a person as  Prophet of Islam ...  ...  that publication of Walid  Saleh.....

    Quote from: yeezevee on August 07, 2020, 09:18 AM
    hello Altara .. I wonder whether you read this publication of  dr., Walid A. Saleh., whom zecca mentioned in one of his posts  in another folder

    The Preacher of the Meccan Quran: Deuteronomistic History and Confessionalism in Muhammads Early Preaching   by Walid A. Saleh
     
    please read that interesting publication if you did  not read already,,, here is the abstract from it
    ........................


    how would you explain those verses that are there in Quran??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9672 - August 19, 2020, 05:51 AM
    I will not respond to this question (for same reasons as always).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9673 - August 19, 2020, 07:53 AM
    Quote from: mundi on August 18, 2020, 03:59 PM

    I agree with you here Marc. The payrus is Egyptian. That means that the hajj to Mecca would be a +- 1200 km treck through the desert. The content is more apropriate to go to the local Market than a hajj at that distance. I think this papyrus is more proof of the localisation of different hajjes than the focus being Mecca.

       
    Hello mundi .,I am sure you know  what Hajj was before Islam... before the birth of Muhammad.. before Mecca...  we should NOT believe in what people wrote with their imagination  using  the content   that is present   in these  papyrus  of early Islam...''

    just for readers
    Quote
    The letter in Arabic: حج‎ [ħædʒ, ħæɡ] similar to the Hebrew: חג‎ ḥag [χaɡ], which means "holiday", from the triliteral Semitic root ח-ג-ג. The meaning of the verb is "to circle, to go around". Judaism uses circumambulation in the Hakafot ritual during Hoshanah Rabbah at the end of the Festival of Sukkot and on Simchat Torah; traditionally, Jewish brides circumambulate their grooms during the wedding ceremony under the chuppah. From this custom, the root was borrowed for the familiar meaning of holiday, celebration and festivity. In the Temple, every festival would bring a sacrificial feast. Similarly in Islam, the person who commits the Hajj to Mecca has to circle around the Kaaba and to offer sacrifices.


    https://www.arabnews.com/news/465223
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hajj
    https://www.criticalmuslim.io/on-pre-islamic-hajj/
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/hajj/pilgrimage-in-preislamic-arabia-and-late-antiquity/A0BB8E614E63915BE34B80200454D02F
    http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1864624,00.html
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9674 - August 19, 2020, 11:00 AM
    Yeez,


    Yes, probably the local market was a hajjj...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9675 - August 19, 2020, 11:27 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 18, 2020, 04:46 PM
    Yes. I think this guys believed that what they recounted was historically true. For one good reason: What they recounted was their explication of the existence of the Quran they had before their eyes.


    This is an assumption here ; I don't see anything in the sources to back this up.

    Also, and I mentionned that on this thread months or years ago, coins do show that Az Zubayr seem to have been the right ruler and Abd Al Malik seem to have rebelled against him ; this is not what the muslim narrative is telling us exactly.

    Quote
    Quote
    [quote author = Marc S ]I am just reading the course of events ; the Arab invasion has its roots in the Muhammad legend ;

    Not for me.


    Just to be clear of any misunderstanding here  ; when I say the Arab invasion has its roots in the Muhammad legend, I am of course refering to the muslim narrative not the historical events ; therefore, in that narrative the Arab winners must be linked with Muhammad so they must be muslims eventhough they will be labelled as bad muslims (sunnis) or worse (shi'as) to explain the different fitnas.


    Quote
    Yes, that is what I think. Because the one who make emerge the "Quranic Muhammad " taken as the one to whom God addressed is Zubayr : 685 Bishapur coin.Muhammad  rasul Allah.


    Assumption again ; there is no proof that there is a link between this coin and the Quran ; actually there is none. Why ? very easy but you must do your homework.  Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9676 - August 19, 2020, 12:41 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 19, 2020, 11:00 AM
    Yeez,


    Yes, probably the local market was a hajjj... local market .. at best some prayer place

    Nooooooooooo.. mundi  no. .,     local market was a  local market and it should be called as local market...

    Some one (Islamic or non-Islmic) calling a local market in an ancient city as hajj.. is NOT going to make a local market of a city or a local prayer place of a city as  hajj  of Islam,, ., may the place  was originally intended by believers /local believers as some sort of Prayer place ... one should realize in every faith through out religious history of any religion/faith these markets mushroom around a prayer place .. it is very common phenomenon for merchants to make some money around those prayer houses
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9677 - August 19, 2020, 12:43 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on August 19, 2020, 11:27 AM
    This is an assumption here ; I don't see anything in the sources to back this up.

    Also, and I mentionned that on this thread months or years ago, coins do show that Az Zubayr seem to have been the right ruler and Abd Al Malik seem to have rebelled against him ; this is not what the muslim narrative is telling us exactly.
    Not for me.

    ...............................but you must do your homework.  Wink



    Marc   you too must do your  work  Cheesy ... did you do it??

    and WHY ARE YOU SO OBSESSED WITH THAT MUSLIM NARRATIVE??  you are a historian ...not a Muslim narrative follower...........
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9678 - August 19, 2020, 04:47 PM
    Quote
    This is an assumption here ; I don't see anything in the sources to back this up.


    When the sources are absent I use logical.

    Quote
    Also, and I mentionned that on this thread months or years ago, coins do show that Az Zubayr seem to have been the right ruler and Abd Al Malik seem to have rebelled against him ; this is not what the muslim narrative is telling us exactly.

     

    Iraq before Zubayr ruled Syria then?
    I did not know that, I thought it was the contrary.

    Quote
    when I say the Arab invasion has its roots in the Muhammad legend, I am of course refering to the muslim narrative

     
    Ok. And it is not fake story for them, it is historical. There is no plot.
    Quote
    to explain the different fitnas.


    Struggle for the power has been coated with Islam whereas it has nothing to do with it.

    Quote
    Assumption again ; there is no proof that there is a link between this coin and the Quran ; actually there is none.

    I think there is clear link. It point towards Irak and not to Palestine about the emergence of  Quranic texts...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9679 - August 19, 2020, 05:49 PM
    Marc,

    You referred to this site concerning Sebeos. What should we pay attention to? What does it show us?

    Quote
    http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/historiens/sebeos/chronique.htm

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9680 - August 19, 2020, 06:27 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 19, 2020, 05:49 PM
    Marc,

    You referred to this site concerning Sebeos. What should we pay attention to? What does it show us?



    They discuss Sebeos' text : dating, authorship.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9681 - August 19, 2020, 06:28 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 19, 2020, 12:43 PM
    and WHY ARE YOU SO OBSESSED WITH THAT MUSLIM NARRATIVE??  you are a historian ...not a Muslim narrative follower...........


    I am not obsessed by the muslim narrative ; I think you lost the plot of the discussion ; anyway I was just explaining some historical actions of the Abbassids in relation with the muslim narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9682 - August 19, 2020, 06:35 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 19, 2020, 04:47 PM
    When the sources are absent I use logical.


    I cannot say that I am not doing the same sometimes.

    Quote
    Iraq before Zubayr ruled Syria then?
    I did not know that, I thought it was the contrary.


    It all depends where all those Arab chiefs came from : Mu'awiya, Abd Al Malik, Abd Allah Ibn Az Zubayr ; I think you replied for the last 2 and you think they come from the East.
     
    Quote
    Ok. And it is not fake story for them, it is historical. There is no plot.

    Our rationale will differ here but that is fine.

    Quote
    I think there is clear link. It point towards Irak and not to Palestine about the emergence of  Quranic texts...

    The content of the texts is of course from the  palestinian environment but I agree that the writing was done in the Mesopotamian area.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9683 - August 20, 2020, 09:13 AM
    Iraq before Zubayr ruled Syria then?
    I did not know that, I thought it was the contrary.
    Quote
    It all depends where all those Arab chiefs came from :


    636 is the key point here: installation in Damascus of Arabs after the Yarmuk. Damascus which is the place of the Arab power in the West.  These Arabs want to rule the East as well (Iraq) against the Iraqi (Ali and later Zubayr) whatever where came from their leaders: those ones always want to rule the East and rule it until the East defeated them in 750.
    Quote
    The content of the texts is of course from the  palestinian environment


    I'm not really sure of that... Elaborate...





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9684 - August 20, 2020, 11:42 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 20, 2020, 09:13 AM
    Iraq before Zubayr ...............


    Hi Altara ., for some reason you are using in many of your posts that word "Iraq" to represent  eastern Islam ..  I am not sure that is a right word .. all the way until that Faisal I of Iraq in 1921... there  was NO Iraq..   So.. in 5th..6th..7th century ..  it was under some little local  rulers controlled by Persian kings .. or ottomans... or some other guys

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9685 - August 20, 2020, 11:50 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on August 19, 2020, 06:28 PM
    I am not obsessed by the muslim narrative ; I think you lost the plot of the discussion ; anyway I was just explaining some historical actions of the Abbassids in relation with the muslim narrative.

     Cheesy  I have not lost any plot ...  but why do you do that??  .. why do you explain some historical actions of the Abbassids in relation with the muslim narratives??

    is it a right thing to do  for a historian?? Did Islam start from Abbasid Caliphate?? 

    or or are you using this  present Muslim narrative and some actions of Abbasid Caliphate to INSULT ISLAM & MUSLIMS??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9686 - August 20, 2020, 11:58 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on August 18, 2020, 12:47 PM
    They are important for the muslim tradition ; without ahadith, you know nothing about Muhammad and his life and also the quaranic revelations.


    So what is the problem with that... that we know nothing about Muhammad.,  Do you think  we need Muhammad for Islam??

    I guess then you have to define Islam.,... Please do not give me Dawah Muslim narrative definition

    Quote
    Do those ahadith contain historical events ? Maybe but, if they do, there are not many and it will be almost impossible to dig them out.

     for that "Maybe"   .. you have to give me the proof of historical events  that you couple to hadith sayings...
       
    otherwise JUNK IT.. TRASH IT..    Marc ..  slightly different subject  BUT RELATED TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING... just curious

    Quote
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GckqukBRa0E 


    what is your opinion on that tube........
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9687 - August 20, 2020, 11:59 AM
    Quote
    Hi Altara ., for some reason you are using in many of your posts that word "Iraq"


    Yes.

    Quote
    I am not sure that is a right word ..


    I am.
    Quote
    all the way until that Faisal I of Iraq in 1921... there  was NO Iraq..  


    I use "Iraq" as a geographical place, not a political one.

    Quote
    it was under some little local  rulers controlled by Persian kings


    It was a persian province who hold the Persian capital.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9688 - August 20, 2020, 12:08 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 20, 2020, 11:59 AM

    I use "Iraq" as a geographical place, not a political one.

    oh I see..  Also It appears you use the word "eastern Islam" ..  what is other Islam?? western Islam from Mecca /Medina?? and Syrian/Palestine northern Islam??

    some times these words confuse me..

    Quote
    It was a persian province who hold the Persian capital.

    that is true.. I still looking for a better word for Iraq of that time.,, "Off course Present Geographical area  of Iraq  is OK   but ..  how about  this??

    Quote
    (Clicky for piccy!)
    (Clicky for piccy!)


    Islam of Northern mesopotamia and  Islam of southern mesopotamia??  shown in maps above...  ...... for this Sunni.. Shia Islamic business
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9689 - August 20, 2020, 01:31 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 20, 2020, 11:58 AM
    slightly different subject  BUT RELATED TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GckqukBRa0E

    what is your opinion on that tube........


    I’m not sure how it relates to the topic - wouldn’t it be better on its own thread? something like “reacting to terrible takes from ex-Muslims”.
    Which side are you on?
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