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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9600 - August 09, 2020, 01:17 PM

    Yeez,


    There are so many extant 7th C folia. Yes, I do think chances are very high that we might have an extant folium from around 635. But we see extant folia  carbon dated for the complete 7th C (excluding the first couple of decades). That is kind of difficult to reconcile with the seeming absence of the text in public life... *see Ikka Lindstedt)

     well 635 is 7th century ..

    I HAVE  HUNCH and I THINK ARABIC LANGUAGE MANUSCRIPTS WERE PRESENT in 5th and 6th century .. and  and QURAN MANUSCRIPTS ARE NOT FIRST ARABIC WRITTEN FOLIOS dear mundi.,

    Quote
    So we have scribes copying the text meticulously, and a community not being aware of the content.

     well I am not sure about that.. one school ... one congregation in a remote place any where in Arabian peninsula could have transcribed multiple copies  ., you don't need many scribes from different places writing Quran manuscripts with same surahs and verses..  you got get some proof to say such statements dear mundi

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9601 - August 09, 2020, 02:38 PM

    Yeez,

    Quote
    well I am not sure about that.. one school ... one congregation in a remote place any where in Arabian peninsula could have transcribed multiple copies  ., you don't need many scribes from different places writing Quran manuscripts with same surahs and verses..  you got get some proof to say such statements dear mundi


    Exactly, that seems to have happened. The book was copied in scribal centers but not read in the wider community. Maybe that is why we see this break  between the language of the Quran and the later recitation language. Only in 8th C was the Quran used in prayer houses and schools in the wider society?

    That would also explain the break in understanding of some passages (including legal passages).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9602 - August 09, 2020, 08:03 PM

    dear mundi., then  going back to earlier post
    Yeez,

    There are so many extant 7th C folia. Yes, I do think chances are very high that we might have an extant folium from around 635. But we see extant folia carbon dated for the complete 7th C (excluding the first couple of decades). That is kind of difficult to reconcile with the seeming absence of the text in public life... *see Ikka Lindstedt)

    again on these words
    Quote
    ....... "7th C folia"....
    ..................... extant folium from around 635..............
    ...Carbon dated folio.........

     essentially you are saying about those Quran manuscripts that are found where??  are all of them carbon dated ?? ... and which library/country has them now???
    Quote
    So we have scribes copying the text meticulously, and a community not being aware of the content.

    That I must agree with you., but when you say "community not being aware of such printed matter on Quran" which community are you talking about?? and what is its  general physical area/country  in the present  Arabian peninsula??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9603 - August 09, 2020, 09:30 PM

    I’m not sure if this has already been posted but here’s an interview with Ilkka Lindstedt.

    Critical Approaches to Pre-Islamic Arabia and Early Islam
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jWnCncZiqFU
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9604 - August 09, 2020, 09:35 PM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - Religious warfare and martyrdom in Arabic graffiti (70s–110s AH/690s–730s CE)

    https://www.academia.edu/35307034/Religious_warfare_and_martyrdom_in_Arabic_graffiti_70s_110s_AH_690s_730s_CE_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9605 - August 09, 2020, 09:46 PM

    Podcast: At the Origins of Islam with Fred Donner

    https://soundcloud.com/uchicago-cmes/fred-donner?in=uchicago-cmes/sets/cmes-ventures
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9606 - August 10, 2020, 09:21 AM

    Podcast: The Qur’an, the Prophet, and a Forgotten History - Juan Cole in conversation with Hamza Yusuf

    https://soundcloud.com/renovatiopodcast/hamza-yusuf-and-juan-cole
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9607 - August 10, 2020, 11:55 AM

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yD_miNEvOtc
    Quote
    Professor Nicolai Sinai was in conversation with Professor Jim Benson about his current work on a historical and literary commentary on parts of the Qur'an, undertaken in the context of the ERC project Qur'anic Commentary: An Integrative Paradigm. This commentary covers the three longest and most complex compositions in the Islamic scripture, surahs 2–4, as well as the short opening surah 1. The project seeks to develop and demonstrate an exegetical approach and format capable of addressing three core dimensions of the Qur’an: the compositional structure of Qur’anic texts; the intricate processes of literary growth and redactional expansion by which many of them have been shaped; and the theological concerns governing the Qur’an’s engagement with antecedent (especially Jewish and Christian) ideas, traditions, and literary forms. An important methodological challenge will be to scrutinize premodern Islamic exegesis as a valuable repository of close scriptural reading, even if its premises and conclusions are not always persuasive to a modern historian.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9608 - August 10, 2020, 12:42 PM

    I still did not find what was Sinai PhD dissertation. It is nowhere (to my knowledge...) indicated.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9609 - August 10, 2020, 12:51 PM



    Mixing sources with no agenda and the Muslim narrative is not (for me...) the good way.
    Yet, Donner has written an important   (I wont  say which...) article which could have changed his view of what happened if he had had a distanciation that an historian must have before such a topic as Early Islam. He literally does not realize what he wrote so much the Muslim narrative prevent his brain to work.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9610 - August 10, 2020, 02:35 PM

    I still did not find what was Sinai PhD dissertation. It is nowhere (to my knowledge...) indicated.


    well whatever his Ph. D. may be..  who cares dear Altara .. what is important is Money.. money talks

     £1.5m grant for him from that European Research Council for investigating Quran should be enough for him to talk politically correct talks/seminars.,  Nicolai Sinai did a good job  here at this pub..

    Qurʾānic Self-Referentiality as a Strategy of Self-Authorization”, in Self-Referentiality in the Qurʾān, edited by Stefan Wild, Wiesbaden 2006, pp. 103–134.


    Quote
    ........Nicolai Sinai holds a PhD in Arabic Studies from the Free University Berlin (2007) ][/u] 

    He  is Lecturer in Islamic Studies at the University of Oxford and Fellow of Pembroke College. His main field of research is the Qur''an and Qur''anic exegesis, but he also has a strong interest in the history of philosophy and theology in the Islamic world. His current work focuses on the Medinan stratum of the Qur''an and its place in the literary and cultural world of Late Antiquity. He hopes that Zukunftsphilologie will allow him to learn more about how scriptural interpretation in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam compares to other exegetical cultures.

    Nicolai''s books include Fortschreibung und Auslegung: Studien zur frühen Koraninterpretation (2009), where he explored the phenomenon of inner-Qur’anic interpretation as a process of canon formation, and studied the typologies and strategies of early Muslim exegesis. Nicolai has also produced a German translation and commentary of the 12th century philosopher, Shihāb ad-Dīn as-Suhrawardī''s Philosophy of Illumination (Ḥikmat al-ishrāq: Die Philosophie der Erleuchtung, 2011).


    that is from his Oxford profile...  what Arabic studies??.. Allah knows the best ..

     Self Referentiality  and  Self Authorization” is the way to make name for yourself.. but that was a good publication...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9611 - August 10, 2020, 05:02 PM

    Quote
    well whatever his Ph. D. may be..  who cares dear Altara ..


    I do.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9612 - August 10, 2020, 06:12 PM

    Nicolai Sinai - Beyond the Cairo Edition: On the Study of Early Quranic Codices

    https://www.academia.edu/42333408/_Beyond_the_Cairo_Edition_On_the_Study_of_Early_Quranic_Codices_Journal_of_the_American_Oriental_Society_140_no_1_2020_189_204
    Quote
    This essay reviews two recent volumes containing editions of important early quranic codices. One of these is the so-called Sanaa Palimpsest, whose lower text at present remains our only known material witness to a recension of the quranic text that is different from the canonical one; the other is the Codex Amrensis. The essay devotes particular attention to the question of the textual relationship between the Quran’s standard text and that documented by the lower layer of the Sanaa Palimpsest, and to Asma Hilali’s claim that the Sanaa Palimpsest never constituted a full quranic codex but only “a collection of disparate leaves.“

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9613 - August 10, 2020, 10:56 PM


     that is a good publication... and it is from year 2020.,    from Journal of the American Oriental Society    140.1 (2020)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twY80hvwvjQ
    http://independent.academia.edu/AsmaHilali

    https://www.scm.uni-halle.de/_/mitwirkende/alumni/asma_hilali/?lang=en



    i often wonder guys like these ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klr3Jy2e3mk

    do they really  read anything on the subject or just make up stories and talk..talk talk in you tubes....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9614 - August 11, 2020, 05:47 PM

    Quote
    hello Altara .. I wonder whether you read this publication of  dr., Walid A. Saleh., whom zecca mentioned in one of his posts  in another folder

    The Preacher of the Meccan Quran: Deuteronomistic History and Confessionalism in Muhammads Early Preaching   by Walid A. Saleh
     
    please read that interesting publication if you did  not read already,,, here is the abstract from it

    dr. Walid Saleh  publications

    and Altara says on that Walid A. Saleh publication...
    I read it. One sees how the existence of Muhammad/Mecca/Kaba is crucial to be Muslim.


    well dear Altara.,   dr. Walid  Saleh is not JUST A MUSLIM., he is a Ph. D. holder and is also an historian of Islam.,  You just can not neglect publications of such folks.,  Either you put out counter arguments or you accept their understanding of Quran....

    anyway then  how about this one from him.. on surah-43??

    Meccan Gods, Jesus' Divinity: An Analysis of Q 43 Surat al-Zukhruf  by Walid Saleh   2018

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9615 - August 12, 2020, 03:46 PM

    Quote
    dr. Walid  Saleh is not JUST A MUSLIM., he is a Ph. D.


    Sure. He is a Muslim who see history of Islam through the Muslim narrative.Muslim narrative that I consider as not historically true.
    But it does not prevent Saleh to be a fine analyst of the Quran. This the case with Meccan Gods, Jesus' Divinity: An Analysis of Q 43 Surat al-Zukhruf  and The Preacher of the Meccan Qur’an:Deuteronomistic History and Confessionalism in Muḥammad’s Early Preaching* p.74-79.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9616 - August 12, 2020, 04:50 PM

    Sure. He is a Muslim who see history of Islam through the Muslim narrative. Muslim narrative that I consider as not historically true.

    Really???

    Do you think he is REAL Muslim? Real Islam practicing Muslim?? or  just a Muslim for name sake because he was born to Muslim parents??

    and   I don't like your cutthroat response yet I will read and consider them  as an important step to investigate true Islamic history and history of Quran  dear Altara.,

    But If you have read me on web some  20 year ago.,  my response to your post would have been this 
    Quote
    Well "'Altara being non-Muslim who know nothing about Islam will always consider   Muslim narrative of Islam is not historically true.,., "" 

     THAT IS WHAT MOST NON-Muslim think about Islam and  that is true to Altara and true to ALL NON-MUSLIMS WHO  EXPLORED/ARE EXPLORING ISLAMIC HISTORY

      but I can not say that now..

    Quote
    But it does not prevent Saleh to be a fine analyst of the Quran. This the case with Meccan Gods, Jesus' Divinity: An Analysis of Q 43 Surat al-Zukhruf  and The Preacher of the Meccan Qur’an:Deuteronomistic History and Confessionalism in Muḥammad’s Early Preaching* p.74-79.

    that is a good point .,  So would you consider him as fine analyst of the Quran??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9617 - August 12, 2020, 07:43 PM

    Quote
    Do you think he is REAL Muslim?

    What is a real Muslim?
    In any case he defends the traditional narrative.

     
    Quote
    So would you consider him as fine analyst of the Quran??

    He is polluted by the narrative. Sometimes he remarks "things". Unfortunately he cannot makes sense of them as he is a great believer.,
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9618 - August 12, 2020, 08:32 PM

    Podcast: https://anchor.fm/bottled-petrichor/episodes/E12-Bible--Quran--Midrash--and-Tafsir-with-Dr--Michael-Pregill-ei14dp
    Quote
    Bible, Qur’an, Midrash, and Tafsir with Dr. Michael Pregill

    Join me as I discuss the Bible, Qur’an, Midrash, and Tafsir with Dr. Michael Pregill. We discuss the state of Qur'anic studies today and how the field has changed over the past couple decades, as well as Dr. Pregill's new book, "The Golden Calf between Bible and Qur'an" (recently published by the Oxford University Press). We then move on to several discussions, including: who was the Qur'anic Sāmirī and how is he related to Aaron/Hārūn; Qur'anic "confusions"; how the fields of Late Antiquity, the Bible/Jewish and Christian tradition, and the tafsīr/Islamic tradition relate to the contemporary study of the Qur'ān; and more!

    Link to Dr. Pregill's bio: https://hcommons.org/members/mpregill/
    Link to his book: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-golden-calf-between-bible-and-quran-9780198852421?lang=en&cc=us

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9619 - August 12, 2020, 08:50 PM

    Altara asks vital question   with a hint  below the question  Cheesy Cheesy.,

    Hi Altara   I am reading this  2015 publication  and I want you to scan through it.....

    **********************************************************************************************
    Stereotypes Associated with Prototypes of the Prophet of Islam's Name till the 19th Century by Ahlam Sbaihat from Department of European Languages, The University of Jordan., Amman- Jordan., it is published in... Jordan Journal of Modern Languages and Literature Vol. 7, No. 1, 2015,

    please read it., fascinating publication  on that word "Muhammad".,  since that word appeared in Quran verse 3.144., 33.40 ., 47.2 and 48.29   ......(( off course here I am removing verse  61:6., there "Ahmad."  was  used instead of Muhammad))...
    ****************************************************************************************************

    That word 'Muhammad" in the above publication and those Quran verses actually couples to  Walid A. Saleh publications we were discussing ., So that is the reason I want you to scan through the above papers as I have some doubts on the presence of that word in Quran manuscripts(NOT THE BOOK).,

     In fact I and mundi discussed about the presence of that word in early  Quran manuscripts  in this very folder....

    anyway back to your post

    Q: What(who) is a real Muslim?

    In any case he defends the traditional narrative.

    well you answered your own question with that word " "traditional narrative." ..

    A simple answer is ., ...........A person who strictly follows  " "traditional narrative. of Islam" in his/her life can be considered as real Muslim ...............


    but let me rephrase that question and answer again in another post .. So the question/s  is/are
    Quote
    1. What is REAL ISLAM??

    2. Who is   REAL MUSLIM??


    those are very important questions ..specially in these times in 21st century ..........
    Quote
    He is polluted by the narrative. Sometimes he remarks "things". Unfortunately he cannot makes sense of them as he is a great believer.,

    well  you are right and  I will agree with you 100%

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9620 - August 13, 2020, 08:21 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/1293641557531414528
    Quote
    Next month I start my fellowship at Cambridge University. The project is about the quranic "pagans," picking up where Patricia Crone left off. In the main I will investigate the religion and philosophical worldview of the "pagans" or mushrikūn of the Quran. A background thread.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9621 - August 13, 2020, 08:36 PM

    Do you think he is REAL Muslim? Real Islam practicing Muslim?? or  just a Muslim for name sake because he was born to Muslim parents??


    I couldn’t say for Walid Saleh but it’s certainly possible to be an academic doing useful work on Quranic studies and be a Muslim. See this video for example which I posted on the other thread but could go equally well here. What would be the point of questioning whether someone like Khalil Andani is a real Muslim?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=APhqeMzeBC4
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9622 - August 13, 2020, 08:43 PM

    Podcast: https://anchor.fm/bottled-petrichor/episodes/E11-The-Quran-and-its-Context-with-Dr--Emran-El-Badawi-egrom2
    Quote
    The Qur'an and its Context with Dr. Emran El Badawi

    I'm pleased to have on Dr. Emran El-Badawi, Associate Professor at the University of Houston and the founding executive director of the International Qur'anic Studies Association (IQSA). We discuss various theories of the origins of the Qurʼān, the Qurʼān and the Aramaic gospel traditions (which is also the title of his book), Ephrem the Syrian's homilies, the Qurʼān in conversation with Late Antiquity, approaching the Qurʼān as believing historians, and more!



    The same goes for Emran El-Badawi.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9623 - August 13, 2020, 09:26 PM

    Quote
    I couldn’t say for Walid Saleh but it’s certainly possible to be an academic doing useful work on Quranic studies and be a Muslim. See this video for example which I posted on the other thread but could go equally well here. What would be the point of questioning whether someone like Khalil Andani is a real Muslim?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=APhqeMzeBC4




    The same goes for Emran El-Badawi.


    well without defining those three words  ... we will be running circles in discussing the subject dear zeca .,   Can you define .. Who is Muslim and who is not a Muslim.,

    As far as useful work in Quran concerned., I am not sure what is really a useful work .. everyone  who writes something about Quran could be considered as Useful to some extent...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9624 - August 13, 2020, 09:43 PM

    If someone calls themself a Muslim then who am I to say that they’re not, or not a real Muslim?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9625 - August 14, 2020, 08:17 AM

    If someone calls themself a Muslim then who am I to say that they’re not, or not a real Muslim?

    dear  zeca the question is NOT  about real Muslim...  unreal Muslim ..atheist Muslim .. shia Muslim... sunni Muslim...Ahmadiyya Muslim.. sufi Muslim.... Quran only  Muslim.... etc..etc..

    ............dear zeca .,   Can you define .. Who is Muslim and who is not a Muslim., ............

    At its core  of that Question...

    "What  is Islam........ Who is Muslim .....and Who is Not A Muslim.... how do we define a Muslim...."

    well that is a tough question....  so let me read...  starting with a twiiter

    Quote



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9626 - August 14, 2020, 11:46 AM

    Quote
    At its core  of that Question...
    "What  is Islam........ Who is Muslim .....and Who is Not A Muslim.... how do we define a Muslim...."


    Yeez it's another topic...


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9627 - August 14, 2020, 12:18 PM

    Yeez it's another topic...


    I fully agree with you on that., let us move on with Quranic studies ., I just got side tracked  because of twitter

    anyway talking about twitter  and Quran...    Ahab Bdaiwi    says


    Quote
    Ahab Bdaiwi איהאבּ ܐܝܗܐܒ
    @bdaiwi_historia
    ·
    Aug 12
    3/The Quran gives us good clues to help understand the "pagans" who emerge as the chief adversaries of the   Prophet Muḥammad and perhaps the most-mentioned theological interlocutors during   his career.


    Quote
    https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/1293641557531414528

    1/Next month I start my fellowship at Cambridge University. The project is about the quranic "pagans," picking up where Patricia Crone left off. In the main I will investigate the religion and philosophical worldview of the "pagans" or mushrikūn of the Quran. 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia


    that is a good subject ... and I would suggest to  Bdaiwi to read Quran  verses such as these

    Quote


    https://versebyversequranstudycircle.wordpress.com/tag/mushrikeen/

    and and write a detailed publication on those verses.... Prophet Muhammad  and his Career from Quran verses is a also an interesting subject

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9628 - August 14, 2020, 02:59 PM

    Ahab Bdaiwi:
    Quote
    The Quran gives us good clues to help understand the "pagans"...


    I do not believe the Quran ; a scholar must not believe or take for granted what it says.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9629 - August 14, 2020, 05:13 PM

    Ahab Bdaiwi:
    I do not believe the Quran ; a scholar must not believe or take for granted what it says.

    That every one must agree and it is a nugget.,

    Quote
      "A scholar in any field of investigation can not be biased must not believe or  take for granted what a book, an hypothesis or a proposition or a postulation  says"


    but I do not understand your other words  "I do not believe the Quran"

    you meant to say

    1. "you  do not believe the Quran   is word of Allah/God?

    2.  or "you do not believe that the Quran has information on the history of early Islam formation "??

    3.  or you are trying to say.,  "A scholar  should not take on its face value what Quran says as fact  of history and has no value for historians that are exploring early Islamic years??"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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