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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9570 - August 03, 2020, 06:44 PM

    The battles of Damascus vs Irak : The Battle of the Camel/Basra, took place at Basra, Iraq on 7 November 656 and The Battle of Karbala was fought on 10 October 680 are not Sunni/Shii stuff it was coated/covered/overlaid by "Shi"i later like this. It was not. It was Damascus vs Irak for both stuff and has nothing to do with the Muslim narrative which was developed later : Ali was not the gender/designed successor of a "prophet", etc.  Ali and Husayn contested the authority of Damascus on Iraq : that is all. Moreover, Zubayr was not an Iraqi  "Shii" he was just Iraqi and contested the leadership of Damascus and was defeated.
    Non Shii Iraq settled the conflict in 750.

    whaaatt........  so  again..... this Karbala massacre story is a story  retold umpteen times and we are doing this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF0IGDHpbWY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFVkTXKg2LI

    self-flagellation in Indian subcontinent  on  Muharram  for the past 1000 years  for a story ....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9571 - August 03, 2020, 06:53 PM

    The battles of Damascus vs Irak : The Battle of the Camel/Basra, took place at Basra, Iraq on 7 November 656 and The Battle of Karbala was fought on 10 October 680 are not Sunni/Shii stuff it was coated/covered/overlaid by "Shi"i later like this. It was not. It was Damascus vs Irak for both stuff and has nothing to do with the Muslim narrative which was developed later : Ali was not the gender/designed successor of a "prophet", etc.  Ali and Husayn contested the authority of Damascus on Iraq : that is all. Moreover, Zubayr was not an Iraqi  "Shii" he was just Iraqi and contested the leadership of Damascus and was defeated.
    Non Shii Iraq settled the conflict in 750.


    Do you see it as historical that Zubayr ran his caliphate from the Hijaz?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9572 - August 03, 2020, 07:18 PM

    What I see is that Zubayr have found an arid valley (idea he found in the Quran) with a ruin, rebuilt it and claimed that it was the city of the "prophet" as "Mecca" (the Quran word) to whom God (in Arabic) have spoken to get legitimacy over Malik who had nothing (regarding this stuff) to oppose him. One way or another "Mecca" became a stake in the war.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9573 - August 03, 2020, 08:11 PM

    It may be incidental to your argument, but why assume that Mecca was an arid valley with a ruin, rather than a dusty little desert town that happened to have a minor local sanctuary, and a name that coincided with a toponym in the Quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9574 - August 03, 2020, 08:24 PM

    It may be incidental to your argument, but why assume that Mecca was an arid valley with a ruin, rather than a dusty little desert town that happened to have a minor local sanctuary, and a name that coincided with a toponym in the Quran?

    you are talking about present Mecca??....  or is that Mecca/Bakkaah ... word..... in Quran??

    where is the ruin in it...??  yes there are plenty of valleys and ruins in western Arabia far above present Medina in place like  ....Al-`Ula.,  Saudi Arabia .,  Now I am falling flat..,

     when actually this present Mecca became Prophet Birth place and a holy city of Islam??? WHAT YEAR,??

    anyway I am lost... but dear Altara .. you really DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION ON KARBALA.,

    did that massacre occur??   if it did  when? what year??

    after answering that question  please read this one page few posts folder..

    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22697.0

    THAT WAS EIGHT YEARS AGO.. I WROTE SOMETHING THERE .,  I need your opinion on those few posts at that folder .....w.r.t Sahaba and Sects of Islam... specially  Shia/Sunni

    and thank you for your responses.. this is eye opening...
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9575 - August 03, 2020, 08:29 PM

    It may be incidental to your argument, but why assume that Mecca was an arid valley with a ruin, rather than a dusty little desert town that happened to have a minor local sanctuary, and a name that coincided with a toponym in the Quran?


    1/ I suppose an arid valley because Zubayr read the Quran, search and found one. This valley could only be located in a non Roman highland region " Q 14:37

    Our Lord, I have made some of my seed to dwell in a valley where is no sown land by Thy Holy House; Our Lord, let them perform the prayer, and make hearts of men yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they will be thankful.

    Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.

    "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks.

    2/ Because the Quran describe a valley and not a dusty desert town. For it is what has found Zubayr, matching what the texts was telling. He had Quranic texts and followed them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9576 - August 03, 2020, 08:41 PM

    do you guys.. zeca and Altara..... trust this JUAN COLE STORY ON Kaaba??

    New Archeological Evidence for the Kaaba, Sanctuary of Peace, in Early Islam .......JUAN COLE 02/27/2019

    at that article he puts up picture like these to write that article /book






    but  they are nowhere near Kaaba /Mecca...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9577 - August 03, 2020, 08:49 PM

    Me? Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9578 - August 03, 2020, 09:59 PM

    do you guys.. zeca and Altara..... trust this JUAN COLE STORY ON Kaaba??


    I don’t feel qualified to judge really.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9579 - August 04, 2020, 03:40 AM

    I don’t feel qualified to judge really.

    no you are well qualified., but you don't want to judge ., that is OK., that freedom you must have., BUT YOU ARE WELL QUALIFIED to judge what is there at that link dear zeca,,,

    this Karbala Massacre in Islam and splitting of Islam in to two major sects really bothering me.,  And Altara does not want to address  that subject..  anyway let me put that sects of Islam picture here..



    well for all practical purposes this Salifi and wahabi are same sects  and all those sects gets defended by this hadith

    Quote
    Quote
    “Jews were divided into 71 sects. One of them is in Heaven, seventy of them are in Hell. Christians are split into 72 sects. Seventy-one of them are in Hell, the one is in Heaven. I swear to Allah whose mighty hands hold the Muhammad’s will, beyond any doubt, my umma will be divided into 73 sects. One will be in Heaven, seventy-two will be in flames."


    Said: ‘Oh the Messenger of Allah! Who are they?’
    Thus he spoke: ‘They are al-jamā‘a (the community)’.


    well we can read more on that at this pub  https://www.academia.edu/322256/Sects_In_the_Islamic_World

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9580 - August 04, 2020, 05:13 AM

    Robin on historical markers in Quran:

    https://www.academia.edu/37672327/_LArabie_dans_le_Coran_R%C3%A9examen_de_quelques_termes_%C3%A0_la_lumi%C3%A8re_des_inscriptions_pr%C3%A9islamiques_dans_Fran%C3%A7ois_D%C3%A9roche_Christian_Robin_et_Michel_Zinc_Les_origines_du_Coran_le_Coran_des_origines_AIBL_Actes_de_colloque_Paris_De_Boccard_2015_pp_27_74

    Altara,
    I think we can conclude Robin is a great believer?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9581 - August 04, 2020, 09:38 AM

    Yes. But interesting article.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9582 - August 04, 2020, 12:27 PM

    Quote


    in your view what is interesting in that review of Robin Christian Julien dear Altara??   .. HIS SELECTION OF QURAN VERSES TO WRITE THAT??


    Robin, Christian Julien, on The Judaism of Ancient Arabia  by  Emilio G. Platti

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9583 - August 04, 2020, 06:44 PM

    Robin:

    He analyses the "historical"events described in the Quran:

    1/ Q34: The Marib dam: Robin debunks the link with historic event

    2/ Q105: al-fil, Strangely Robin accepts the historical association. I think that is very generous of him.

    3/ Tubba: not clear, should reread, but dont feel like it.

    4/Q 85, Al-Ukhdud: no historical link

    This passage in Robin's article is very interesting. He must be very well informed and if he says this, I believe him:
    Quote
    À al-Ḥijr (aujourd’hui Madāʾin Ṣāliḥ), les fouilles françaises n’ont pas trouvé de traces d’occupation pour l’époque de Muḥammad b. ʿAbd Allāh et débutVIIe siècle), ni dans la ville ni dans la nécropole voisine :le site était bien désert à l’aube de l’Islam. Il n’est donc pas étonnant qu’il ait servi d’exemple pour illustrer la punition divine qui frappe les incrédules (Q 15)


    If the Mecca narrative were true, how is this possible? Nothing between Medina and the Levant for a 1000  km's.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9584 - August 05, 2020, 04:14 PM

    Sasanian coins from ‘Uman and Bahrayn
    Derek Kennet
    This paper will briefly re-examine the 76 known Sasanian coins from Eastern Arabia. It will be argued that they give some fresh insights into the nature of the region during the Sasanian period and that their geographical distribution and chronological profile reflect the differing sub-regional relationships with the Sasanian empire and its satraps, the Lakhmids.

    https://www.academia.edu/7161081/Sasanian_Coins_from_Uman_and_Bahrayn
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9585 - August 07, 2020, 09:18 AM

    hello Altara .. I wonder whether you read this publication of  dr., Walid A. Saleh., whom zecca mentioned in one of his posts  in another folder

    The Preacher of the Meccan Quran: Deuteronomistic History and Confessionalism in Muhammads Early Preaching   by Walid A. Saleh
     
    please read that interesting publication if you did  not read already,,, here is the abstract from it

    Quote
    Abstract    There has been a trend in recent scholarship on the Qur'an to downplay the role of Muḥammad in delivering and preaching the Qur'an, such that one is almost presented with a disembodied Qur'an which has no relationship to his prophetic career. The disappearance of Muḥammad from the Qur'an, and the pretence that there is no preacher, allows for a radical rereading of the text, such that one can then claim not only that it is an outgrowth of a Christian preaching environment, but that the Qur'an's main audience was a Biblically-saturated community. However, there is also a more serious issue at hand. Our Fragestellung about what the Qur'an has to tell us about Muḥammad is problematic. It seeks to reconstruct his life in the manner of a nineteenth-century biography, outlining a linear and comprehensive life-story. The Qur'an is unlike the Gospels, we are repeatedly told: there is no sustained biography of Muḥammad there to be found, and no chronological order to its parts. Indeed, the mantra that the Qur'an does not tell us much about Muḥammad is now a truism in Qur'anic studies. However, the Qur'an is packed with information about Muḥammad: it is actually a record of his preaching.

    In this article I will investigate the most important details    we can find in the Qur'an about Muḥammad, and assess the image of the preacher of the Qur'an as fashioned there. I will then develop the historical implications of my analysis, and show that when we analyse the information in the Qur'an we can obtain historical information about Muḥammad, his community, and their respective ideas. The analysis will be confined to the image of Muḥammad in the Meccan parts of the Qur'an: the topic of his image in the Medinan Qur'an is a matter for another study.


    dr. Walid Saleh  publications

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9586 - August 07, 2020, 10:29 AM

    I read it. One sees how the existence of Muhammad/Mecca/Kaba is crucial to be Muslim.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9587 - August 07, 2020, 11:15 AM

    Sean Anthony on Dan Gibson, a thread.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1290996430367334402
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9588 - August 07, 2020, 11:48 AM

    hello Altara .. I wonder whether you read this publication of  dr., Walid A. Saleh., whom zecca mentioned in one of his posts  in another folder

    The Preacher of the Meccan Quran: Deuteronomistic History and Confessionalism in Muhammads Early Preaching   by Walid A. Saleh


    Khalil Andani’s summary
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oEC3YPLJfpQ&feature=youtu.be
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9589 - August 07, 2020, 12:09 PM

    I read it. One sees how the existence of Muhammad/Mecca/Kaba is  crucial to be Muslim.

    well I do not think that is necessary to be a Muslim., who is a Muslim?   In my View the person who believes in  ............THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD.............  a monotheistic idea of god/allah/whatever

    and what you say is not for me and for my understanding of Islam at its core  which is simply ONE LINE STATEMENT  and  again that is

    Quote
    THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD .. or for Arabic lingophiles .... la ilaha ill Allah...


     but that is completely different subject ...  

    So questions to you.,  I think these two places  Mecca and Medina can easily be excluded from Islam on the basis of Quran  and  moved to some other place., But.... but  exclusion of a preacher during that proto-Islamic period becomes difficult ((because of many Quran verses attested to that preacher))  even if we exclude word Muhammad((WHICH WE CAN))  which  being an adjective added to many names in early Islam., and people may have called that preacher .. as  Muhammad way after the preacher's death.....,    

    So..

    1). How do we explain Quran verses where a person  as prophet/preacher/messenger  mentions  often to talk/say  indirectly in many verses ., In fact  Walid A. Saleh used in many of such Quran verses in his Pub and and   even you used such verses in your posts to defend your hypothesis..  

    2). Do you think there was only one person who authored Quran manuscripts  and later some additions and subtractions were made to those manuscripts  

    3). Do you consider Quran manuscripts in Arabic were printed by the years say 630-650??    or you move the dates all the way  to years say 690 to 720??

    many questions are floating in my brain.,

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9590 - August 07, 2020, 12:19 PM


    well i will read through him... i hate listening and watching tubes on critical subjects., often these guys talk/give hand waving statements dear zeca .,   if it is published it is different matter

    https://scholar.harvard.edu/khalilandani/home

    but thank you..  and i wonder what is the earliest year that Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām of present  Mecca was built?

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9591 - August 07, 2020, 12:59 PM



    Anthony:
    Quote
    it's one thing to say that one harbors serious doubts/qs about Mecca and its relationship to the Qur'an but yet another thing altogether to buy into the Petra-thesis w/out applying the same skepticism to claims wheeled out to support it.


    He's right.

    Quote
    Many amateurs and autodidacts are  far more knowledgeable than I or, for that matter, many professional academics. Gibson, though, is not one of them. Petra was bishopric see in the 6th century, so not the first place that one would go to sacrifice animals on anṣāb, etc.


    Again. I already said this here...

    Q:
    Quote
    Dr Anthony - one of the arguments from Dan Gibson is that there is a lack of archeological evidence in Mecca dating back to a 7th century Islam. Is that true? If so what would explain it?


    Anthony:
    Quote
    I've written a bit about the 7th century evidence for Mecca here:

    In this response to Pro( Hawting's Presidential Address, I offer my views on
    the centrality of the Meccan sanctuary to the message of the Qur'an in the
    early Meccan period, its subsequent salience in the Medinan period, and
    the evidence for its continued importance for the Muslims of the seventh
    century. Reverence for the Meccan sanctuary, I argue, was pivotal to the early
    community's self-understanding as a discrete community, both distinct from
    the "People of the Book" (ahl al-kitab) and as a successor community with a
    shared biblical lineage. I contend, moreover, that reverence for a sanctuary
    in Mecca and its attendant rites was regarded as a touchstone feature of the
    religiosity of the newly hegemonic conquerors from Arabia by some of the
    earliest contemporary observers of the conquests and their aftermath.


    One does not have the article, only the abstract.
    Anthony confuses importance and existence.  All the "earliest contemporary observers of the conquests and their aftermath" there are none who speak of what is specific to Islam: Mecca/Kaba/Medina/Abu Bakr (the first Muslim), etc.
    Anthony:
    Quote
    I would like to begin my response to Pro( Hawting's excellent address by
    taking us somewhat far afield-beyond the l:Iijaz at least-to consider briefly
    a passage from the ecclesiastical history of Sozomen, a historian from the
    Gaza region writing in the middle of the fifth century CE. Sozomen describes
    in this passage a famous pilgrimage site in Roman Palestine called the Oak
    of Mamre, located approximately fifteen stadia north of Hebron, as it existed
    in the early fourth century CE prior the Christianization of the region by
    emperor Constantine I (r. 306/312-337). I single out Sozomen's description
    of the Oak of Mamre because, much like the "Inviolable Place of Worship"
    (al-masjid al-~aram) described in the Qur'an, this site was connected to the
    biblical patriarch Abraham and was the focal point of veneration by the local
    population and a multitude of outsiders drawn into its orbit. Of this village
    called Mamre, Sozomen writes (Hist. eccl. 2.4):1


    It attests that Palestinians Arabs had already interiorized that there were the sons of Abraham. I already address the topic here.

    Q:
    Quote
    Mr Dryasdust
    @MDryasdust
    ·
    Aug 5
    Replying to
    @shahanSean
    You believe that Islam originated in today’s Mecca?


    No response by Anthony.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9592 - August 07, 2020, 02:41 PM

    Hi!
    In this video, around 39,55,, Robert Spencer is referring to a source from the 690s, (witch  he at the moment  didn't remember), saying that "we did't recite the Quran".
    Could this support the idea that in the 7th century, the Quran wasn't well known or in much use? I remember van Putten said that those who wrote the inscriptions in the Dome of the Rock, didn't have a Quran ( they conflated two lines). 
    Considering Ilkka Lindsted's research that concluded with the Muslim identity and "parting of the ways" didn't happen before the 720s. If I remember correctly, Mecca isn't mentioned in any Muslim sources before the 720s. It is also in this time that the mosques start to point towards Mecca, according to the fabulous Dan Gibson. Another argument is that there seems to be a threshold  about the hadiths around 100 AH, where one thinks that at that time, some of the isnads may have been started.
    My point is that doesn't this information show that Islam mainly was developed around or after 700 AD?
    https://youtu.be/_INTaxLcUcI?t=2395

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9593 - August 07, 2020, 02:57 PM

    Talking about Sean Anthony. He is making fun of Tom Holland, while Gabriel S. Reynolds not so long ago claimed that he respected Holland very much. Van Putten is laughing of Christoph Luxenberg, while for instance Robert Hoyland takes his works more serious.
    Emran El-Badawi and Reynolds are referring to Gibson's work and think it might be something in it, while other researchers are making fun of him.
    Tomasso Tesei writes that "Q Studies is the kingdom of speculation".
    Robert Hoyland writes that that there are too many liberals that don't dare to criticize  Islam.
    This is sure a strange field!
    https://twitter.com/teseitommaso/status/1238889749731069952?s=20
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9594 - August 07, 2020, 03:39 PM



    Thanks, that’s an interesting thread.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9595 - August 07, 2020, 06:28 PM

    Bjorn,

    It indeed seems like it that the Quran was intensely copied 7th C but not spread out...

    An interesting thread that undermines Gibson somewhat is this:

    https://twitter.com/NaqadStudies/status/1291102576835022849?s=20

    Apparently the qibla was not meant as a prayer direction by the quranic author(s). That would explain the qibla confusion in the 7th C  shown by archeology.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9596 - August 07, 2020, 06:36 PM

    Bjorn,

    It indeed seems like it that the Quran was intensely copied 7th C but not spread out...

    ................ That would explain the qibla confusion in the 7th C  shown by archeology.

    what actually you mean by intensely copied??  from where?? from whom and approximately how many times did it get copied??


    mundi you know well 7th century means anywhere in these 99 years from 601 to 699.,   but Quran the book which came out of manuscripts competed by the year 635............  IS THAT NOT YOUR VIEW??  or did i get wrong on that??

    as you know Prophet of Islam according classical Islamic story died in the year 632.....  so the year 632  or 699 ., we can take that 7th century

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9597 - August 07, 2020, 07:34 PM

    Yeez,


    There are so many extant 7th C folia. Yes, I do think chances are very high that we might have an extant folium from around 635. But we see extant folia  carbon dated for the complete 7th C (excluding the first couple of decades). That is kind of difficult to reconcile with the seeming absence of the text in public life... *see Ikka Lindstedt)

    So we have scribes copying the text meticulously, and a community not being aware of the content.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9598 - August 08, 2020, 09:42 AM

    Brian Ulrich - Oman and Bahrain in late antiquity: the Sasanians’ Arabian periphery

    https://www.academia.edu/8353177/Oman_and_Bahrain_in_late_antiquity_the_Sasanians_Arabian_periphery
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9599 - August 08, 2020, 06:38 PM

    Peter Webb - Review of Brian Ulrich: Arabs in the Early Islamic Empire: Exploring al-Azd Tribal Identity

    https://www.academia.edu/43808806/Reivew_of_Brian_Ulrich_Arabs_in_the_Early_Islamic_Empire_Exploring_al_Azd_Tribal_Identity?email_work_card=view-paper
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