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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9510 - July 26, 2020, 10:45 AM

    Hijaz, where does that begin and where does it end?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9511 - July 26, 2020, 11:07 AM

    I suppose it’s easy to prove something to your own satisfaction that you know is true to begin with.

    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9512 - July 26, 2020, 11:08 AM

    Hijaz, where does that begin and where does it end?

    It begins at the end of the 7th.c the firsts "hajj" = "Hijaz".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9513 - July 26, 2020, 12:31 PM

    "Contemporary Shiʿi Approaches to the History of the Text of the Qur’ān"
    Seyfeddin Kara

    "Shiʿi approaches to the history of the text of the Qur’ān are largely unknown
    in Western academia.1 Aside from Friedrich Schwally’s brief treatment of the
    subject, Western scholars have discussed the history of the text of the Qur’ān
    mostly in relation to the Sunni perspective and sources.2 The predominant
    Sunni view is that the project of collecting the text was initiated at the behest
    of the caliphs Abū Bakr and ʿUthmān (ʿUmar was also involved).3 Shiʿi
    scholars, based on their traditions, claim that the fourth caliph or first Shiʿi
    Imām, ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib, collected the Qur’ān immediately after the demise
    of the Prophet."

    https://www.academia.edu/42632853/_Contemporary_Shi%CA%BFi_Approaches_to_the_History_of_the_Text_of_the_Qur_%C4%81n_in_New_Trends_in_Qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic_Studies
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9514 - July 26, 2020, 01:08 PM

    Glad to see this  Q & A,,, session   Cheesy

    Quote
    Hijaz, where does that begin and where does it end?

    It begins at the end of the 7th.c the firsts "hajj" = "Hijaz".


    Altara answered that question without  answering it .... good trick ....lol.. 

    Hello Altara  .. let me rephrase that question.,

    Hijaz, where and when does that begin and where does it end? and what is the name of that place where that  first  "hajj"/"Hijaz" took place??

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9515 - July 26, 2020, 03:29 PM

    It had no name known as it was barren. And was called "Hijaz" because of the Quranic word "hajj".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9516 - July 26, 2020, 04:11 PM

    It had no name known as it was barren. And was called "Hijaz" because of the Quranic word "hajj".

    well your answer leads to more questions... specially that word in Quran., i will come back to that later .,

    but why would you consider that (the place of hajj) as barren land?  after all Arabic word hajj literally means ...simply a place of pilgrimage ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9517 - July 26, 2020, 10:52 PM

    "Mecca" is a barren land according to the Quran. Late 7th c. Arabs have "found" the valley of "Mecca" and have decided that it was surely the place of the Prophet. They rebuilt what they thought was the Kaba and decreed that an "hajj" should be done here. Therefore the place and around were called "Hijaz".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9518 - July 27, 2020, 04:00 AM

    my goodness so many confirmatory statements on early Islam there dear Altara
    "Mecca" is a barren land according to the Quran. Late 7th c. Arabs have "found" the valley of "Mecca" and have decided that it was surely the place of the Prophet. They rebuilt what they thought was the Kaba and decreed that an "hajj" should be done here. Therefore the place and around were called "Hijaz".

    let me repeat that post as pointers

    Quote
    1). "Mecca" is a barren land according to the Quran

    2). Late 7th c. Arabs have "found" the valley of "Mecca" and have decided that it was surely the place of the Prophet..

    3),  ((They))  The Late 7th c. Arabs  rebuilt what they thought was the Kaba and decreed that an "hajj" should be done here.

    4).  Therefore the place and around were called "Hijaz"


    well I did not even finish asking questions on earlier Altara post., and he frames more question from this post itself.,

    dear Altara

    1). are you building all that four point story from Quranic verses  or do you have any other supporting evidence??

    2),  Is this  Quranic Mecca ......  and  The Barren land of a Quranic verse ... .....and The  Late 7th c. Arabs  that "found" the valley of "Mecca"....... Kaba .... the  decreed as hajj place...etc.. etc ..  Are they all same place and is it present Mecca in Saudi Arabia ??

    3).. what verses of Quran are you taking to built that four point story on hajj place..?? and who are those Arabs of 7th century that found" the valley of "Mecca"....... Kaba .... the  decreed as hajj place..  what are their names  and their relation to The Umayyad Caliphate

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9519 - July 27, 2020, 08:15 AM

    1/ Yes.+ Studies On The First Century Of Islamic Society, Ed. G.H.A. Juynboll, Papers on Islamic History, vol. 5. Carbondale and Edwardsville Illinois: Southern Illinois University Press, 1982 Chapter 2 : The Origins of the Muslim Sanctuary at Mecca, G.R. Hawting, p.23-48

    The origins of the muslim sanctuary at mecca
    G.R. Hawting


    "This paper is concerned with the question of how the pre-Islamic sanctuary at Mecca became the Muslim sanctuary.1 I intend to put forward some of the evidence which has led me to think that the way in which the question is usually answered, both in the traditional Muslim literature and in works of modern scholarship, produces an inadequate account of the origins and development of the Muslim sanctuary, and I wish to propose the outlines of an alternative way of envisaging the islamization of the Meccan sanctuary."

    2/ Yes.

    3/  Verses (about  an "hajj" ) of the Quran interpreted and understood by Arabs at that time inside the political situation from 685. Some Arabs rebuilt what they thought was the Kaba, claimed that they were the owner of the place of the Prophet, and decreed that an "hajj" should be done here. Proponents of the other side said that there was Jerusalem where the "hajj" should be done.
    You have to do your homework and look carefully to the political situation between Arabs from 685 to 692.
    I will not say more about this: homework is a keyword here!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9520 - July 27, 2020, 10:23 AM

    Saleh on Hawting, 'The Idea of Idolatry and the Emergence of Islam: From Polemic to History'

    https://networks.h-net.org/node/8330/reviews/8943/saleh-hawting-idea-idolatry-and-emergence-islam-polemic-history
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9521 - July 27, 2020, 11:43 AM

    1/ Yes.+ Studies On The First Century Of Islamic Society, Ed. G.H.A. Juynboll, Papers on Islamic History, vol. 5. Carbondale and Edwardsville Illinois: Southern Illinois University Press, 1982 Chapter 2 : The Origins of the Muslim Sanctuary at Mecca, G.R. Hawting, p.23-48

    The origins of the muslim sanctuary at mecca
    G.R. Hawting


    A link for that, courtesy of a dodgy looking Christian site:

    https://www.bible.ca/islam/library/islam-quotes-juynboll-hawting.htm
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9522 - July 27, 2020, 11:46 AM

    The site does have this online library: https://www.bible.ca/islam/library/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9523 - July 27, 2020, 11:53 AM

    Saleh on Hawting, 'The Idea of Idolatry and the Emergence of Islam: From Polemic to History'

    https://networks.h-net.org/node/8330/reviews/8943/saleh-hawting-idea-idolatry-and-emergence-islam-polemic-history


     "The Qur'an, according to the author, neither reflects an Arabian background nor was it produced in inner Arabia as the tradition claims. The author argues that "the polemic of the Koran against the mushrikun reflects disputes among monotheists rather than pagans and that Muslim tradition does not display much substantial knowledge of Arab pagan religion. There is no compelling reason to situate either the polemic or the tradition within Arabia"

    Of course. But Hawting is totally lost when he tries to dig, as he he can't figure out what he's dealing with.  : G.R. Hawting, « ‘‘Has God sent a mortal as a messenger ?’’ (Q 17 :95) Messengers and angels in the Qur'ān », dans New Perspectives on the Qur'ān, The Qur'ān in its historical context 2, G.S Reynolds éd, Routledge, 2011, p.372-389.

    "The whole of the monograph is dedicated to proving that the Qur'an is not arguing against "real" pagans when it argues with the group it calls mushrikun, those who practice shirk or associationism, that is, worshiping other deities in addition to Allah. Rather, the author claims, the Qur'an is adopting a rhetorical stratagem that is very common to monotheistic traditions. To call someone a "pagan" or "idolater" was to label them as less Christian or less Jewish than the accusing faction. The same should be held true for the arguments in the Qur'an. "

    Yes, Hawting is correct.

    "Hawting squarely places his work in the scholarly tradition of John Wansbrough's Quranic Studies (1977) and The Sectarian Milieu (1979), but this claim of methodological affinity with Wansbrough's method undermines the author's entire effort in this monograph (pp. 16-17). For in a Wansbroughian paradigm the problem raised by Hawting is not a problem. The prime thrust of Wansbrough's approach, as far as one can summarize it, is that the whole edifice of what we now call Islam is the product of a long historical development that included the formation of the Qur'an. [...] Hawting is claiming that the Qur'an was the only document that somehow mysteriously escaped the Wansbroughian paradigm, a paradigm that Hawting declares nevertheless to be the key to understanding Islam, and we are not told why this is so. Thus it is not clear how and to what degree Hawting's method purports to be a continuation or a refinement of Wansbrough's method. To treat the Qur'an apart from the tradition is to undo Wansbrough's fundamental methodological axiom. Hawting's own account of how his method both follows and diverges from Wansbrough's is untenable. One cannot follow "Wansbrough's general approach, and not necessarily his tentative suggestions about absolute or relative chronology," as Hawting states, without fundamentally shifting the whole paradigm (p. 17). It is precisely the chronological implications of Wansbrough's method that are the heart of the matter. For if the Qur'an's canonization (and thus stabilization) was a belated event contemporaneous with other Muslim literature, why did the tradition not see to it that the Qur'an also reflected what was to become the fundamental claim of the new religion? To separate the Qur'an from the other Muslim traditional literature is to fall back on the method of the German school of quranic studies, from which Hawting is so adamant in differentiating himself. One cannot both invoke Wansbrough and work within the parameters of the German school. We have thus no minor methodological problem here but a major flaw that vitiates the entire work. To a Wansbroughian the issue could not be simpler: the Qur'an has material that claims to reflect an Arabian pagan past because the tradition wanted to create such an image of this past. The material in the Qur'an is thus ahistorical in so far as it does not reflect anything historical about seventh-century Arabia, but historical in so far as it reflects what Muslims wanted to project about their new religion and its origins. ect."



    Saleh is right but it is (for me...) a detail. Hawting, as an academic, thought that he needed to be located for his readers in a scholarship tradition : in his case the Wansbrough one. It does not necessitate that he has to be stuck on it. This stuff is a kind of trap that he could have been avoided if he had been astute. However he is lost (like Crone) as his next works on the Quran will show.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9524 - July 27, 2020, 05:29 PM

    ..................

    2/ Yes.

    .........................


    I will try to digest 1 & 3 later but that "YES" for 2nd point is not making sense to me dear Altara.. so the 2nd point was
    .....................................

    2),  Is this  Quranic Mecca ......  and  The Barren land of a Quranic verse ... .....and The  Late 7th c. Arabs  that "found" the valley of "Mecca"....... Kaba .... the  decreed as hajj place...etc.. etc ..  Are they all same place and is it present Mecca in Saudi Arabia ??

    ............................................

    By saying "Yes"..  Are you  not saying  QURAN WRITERS KNEW THE PRESENT LOCATION/TOWN & ITS PEOPLE ?? or is that not necessary?? Off ocurse here I am assuming the Quran verse/s on Mecca  was written way before late 7th century Arabs and their finding Mecca valley..   well let me put that verse here


    Quote
    48: 24.    And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca after He had given you victory over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do.


    So are you not saying by that word "yes"  ......that Valley of Mecca in the above verse is Present Mecca,,,   did I get that right ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9525 - July 28, 2020, 01:36 AM

    I say that the Arabs late 7th c.  have found a valley from what is written in the Quran and decreed that this valley was the one of the city of the Prophet. Therefore "Mecca". The only clue they had was the Quran, nothing else as they were not "Companions" whatever of a Prophet. They build the Kaba and decreed that there must be an "hajj" there.

    Chapter (14,37) sūrat ib'rāhīm (Abraham)
    Sahih International: Our Lord, I have settled some of my descendants in an uncultivated valley near Your sacred House, our Lord, that they may establish prayer. So make hearts among the people incline toward them and provide for them from the fruits that they might be grateful.

    Pickthall: Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.

    Yusuf Ali: "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks.

    Shakir: O our Lord! surely I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Thy Sacred House, our Lord! that they may keep up prayer; therefore make the hearts of some people yearn towards them and provide them with fruits; haply they may be grateful:

    Muhammad Sarwar: "Lord, I have settled some of my offspring in a barren valley near your Sacred House so that they could be steadfast in prayer. Lord, fill the hearts of the people with love for them and produce fruits for their sustenance so that they may give thanks.

    Mohsin Khan: "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in an uncultivable valley by Your Sacred House (the Ka'bah at Makkah); in order, O our Lord, that they may perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), so fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and (O Allah) provide them with fruits so that they may give thanks.

    Arberry: Our Lord, I have made some of my seed to dwell in a valley where is no sown land by Thy Holy House; Our Lord, let them perform the prayer, and make hearts of men yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they will be thankful.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9526 - July 28, 2020, 02:46 PM

    I say that the Arabs late 7th c.  have found a valley from what is written in the Quran and decreed that this valley was the one of the city of the Prophet. Therefore "Mecca". The only clue they had was the Quran, nothing else as they were not "Companions" whatever of a Prophet. They build the Kaba and decreed that there must be an "hajj" there.


    Still no direct answer.,  but I will take that ..Verse 14.37.,

    Quote
    Chapter (14,37) sūrat ib'rāhīm (Abraham)

    ........ O our Lord! surely I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Thy Sacred House, our Lord! that they may keep up prayer; therefore make the hearts of some people yearn towards them and provide them with fruits; haply they may be grateful:

    I am not sure what i should do with that verse but that verse ., does it not come from  the story of Abraham-Hager and the kid Ishmael?? from Genesis or Galatians??

    I am not sure who was Arab and who was NOT in 7th century ., but were they Arab Jews? Arab Christians?? Arab Pagans .. or..or some mixed race guys .. Roman Arabs???  who are those guys??  DID THEY COME FROM PRESENT MECCA & MEDINA??  As far as you using that verse is concerned.,using that  I guess you are trying to say  Islam actually begin some time in the year 680-690 from present Mecca  but the book Quran could have been printed much earlier from somewhere else............

    did i get that right....??    it is pleasure reading your responses

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9527 - July 28, 2020, 03:21 PM

    Arabs:

    We know who were called Arabs in 6th-7th C. They lived in ex-Nabatean realm (including Red Sea coast of Egypt, Sinai, Negev, Aila and South of it).

    Why not take the obvious and situate the Quranic author(s) there?

    There were also Arabs spread out in the Greek Levant but literary sources would exist if the source was there.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9528 - July 28, 2020, 06:16 PM

    Quote
    were they Arab Jews? Arab Christians?? Arab Pagans .. or.. some mixed race guys .. Roman Arabs??? 


    Nope.
    Quote
    who are those guys??

     

    Arabs who got Quranic texts with them. Arabs are present from Palestine to Iraq since ages.

    Quote
    DID THEY COME FROM PRESENT MECCA & MEDINA??


    Nope.

    Quote
    As far as you using that verse is concerned., using that  I guess you are trying to say  Islam actually begin some time in the year 680-690 from present Mecca 


    If you think that "Islam" is the emergence of the "hajj" in "Mecca" yes. I do not think (at all) this. At all. That I do think, is that it is "Islam" stems from the Quran, nothing else.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9529 - July 28, 2020, 06:19 PM

    Arabs:

    what kind of Arabs? what is there religious /cultural association?

    Quote
    We know who were called Arabs in 6th-7th C. They lived in ex-Nabatean realm (including Red Sea coast of Egypt, Sinai, Negev, Aila and South of it).

      how about present Syria, Jordan.. Iraq., Yemen??

    Quote
    Why not take the obvious and situate the Quranic author(s) there?

    Quranic authors must be very familiar with OT & NT

    Quote
    There were also Arabs spread out in the Greek Levant but literary sources would exist if the source was there.

    ***************************************************
    Countries and regions   Narrow definition:
     Cyprus
     Israel
     Jordan
     Lebanon
     Palestine
     Syria
     Turkey (Hatay Province)
    Broad definition may also include:
     Egypt
     Greece
     Iraq
     Libya (Cyrenaica)
     Turkey (whole country)
    *****************************************

    that is pretty much whole middle east excluding Persia of that time

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9530 - July 29, 2020, 12:20 AM

    well let me put Q&A together and add more Questions to Altara

    Quote
    yeezevee: were they Arab Jews? Arab Christians?? Arab Pagans .. or.. some mixed race guys .. Roman Arabs???

    Nope.
    Quote
    yeezevee:  who are those guys??

    Arabs who got Quranic texts with them. Arabs are present from Palestine to Iraq since ages.


    Arabs with Quran/ Quranic texts.........,    Are these Arab guys completely isolated from the Jewish., Christian society around them??  what was their faith before they got these Quran manuscripts/ the book?? .. If I understood correctly your point.,  The time period these Arab guys got these manuscripts is around .. the years  680-695....

    and in this fig of  Umayyad Caliphate period.,  which one you think are real .. which one you think  are the stories??



    Quote
    yeezevee: DID THEY COME FROM PRESENT MECCA & MEDINA??
    Quote
    Nope.


    that I fully agree with you

    Quote
    If you think that "Islam" is the emergence of the "hajj" in "Mecca" yes. I do not think (at all) this. At all. That I do think, is that it is "Islam" stems from the Quran, nothing else


    well yes  I do think "Islam"   emerges from the  "hajj" get together of converts in "Mecca" yes

    Quote
    If you think that "Islam" is the emergence of the "hajj" in "Mecca" yes. I do not think (at all) this. At all. That I do think, is that it is "Islam" stems from the Quran, nothing else.

     
      well I am not sure about that  .. I would say ISLAM COMES OUT OF HADITH..

    but yes  early rulers  of Islam and rulers of so-called Islamic nations even today  use certain  specific  Quranic verses  to propel Islam along with Islam preachers .,   but again I say ISLAM COMES OUT/CAME OUT OF HADITH.   but Quran stems from OT & NT   ..

    correct me  if I am wrong

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9531 - July 29, 2020, 08:14 AM

    Quote
    If I understood correctly your point.,  The time period these Arab guys got these manuscripts is around .. the years  680-695....


    Nope: I consider that they had  (at least) Q 2,127 in 637 which has directed them to build a House of prayer on the Temple Mount.

    Quote
    and in this fig of  Umayyad Caliphate period.,  which one you think are real .. which one you think  are the stories??

    All the figures who are in coins or noted in non Muslims contemporary texts texts are real.  But Sebeos text  do not date from 640, the Doctrina Jacobi do not attest of the existence of a figure who belong to the frame Mecca/Abu Bakr.

    Quote
    but again I say ISLAM COMES OUT/CAME OUT OF HADITH.   but Quran stems from OT & NT   ..
    correct me  if I am wrong

    1/ Islam of the 10th c. yes.
    2/ Yes the Quran takes stories and figures from OT & NT.
    Abd al Malik (685-705) knew the hadith?
    The guy who has written the interior inscription of the Dome (start building more or less 680) knew the hadith?
    I do not think so ; at that time, there was no hadith.
    All was stemming from Quranic texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9532 - July 29, 2020, 08:31 AM

    Abd al Malik (685-705) knew the hadith?
    The guy who has written the interior inscription of the Dome (start building more or less 680) knew the hadith?
    I do not think so ; at that time, there was no hadith.


    good point,, good point., we will discuss in detail about that guy .. a very important character of early Islam ..  a very obscure figure in Islam unlike  those four  rightly guided caliphs and Caliphs after those four guys ..

    but as you often pointed out .. THERE WAS NO MUHAMMAD.. NO MECCA ..NO MEDINA  all the way until    685-705 ............ and Quran itself become a Arabic book  from OT & NT stories during his time  ... tells us that things were added in to Quran to suit  the rulers  and propel Islam from his time .. I guess that Mecca  hajj also starts from his time.. anyway let me learn from you about that guy Abd al Malik (685-705)... Often I wonder whether he was really an Arab guy .. or some other character moved in to  Islam...during early Islamic power struggle

     well I got to read your post again and again as I did not  notice  the edited version of it

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9533 - July 29, 2020, 09:54 AM

    Quote
    and Quran itself become a Arabic book  from OT & NT stories during his time  (685-705 )


    As a "book" yes. As texts nope. I consider that Quranic texts are more earlier than 630.
    Quote
    I guess that Mecca  hajj also starts from his time.. (685-705 )

     

    After 692 yes whereas it was said in Damascus that the "hajj" must be done to Jerusalem and not to the place that his rival (of Malik) said that it was the place of the Prophet.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9534 - July 29, 2020, 12:12 PM

    As a "book" yes. As texts nope. I consider that Quranic texts are more earlier than 630.

    off course they are older ., every one who reads Quran as comparative religious text along with OT & NT knows that., why 630., for some texts I go couple of centuries older than 630.,    I said that innumerable times  In fact  here in this forum at these two posts

    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847206#msg847206
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847232#msg847232

    I compared surah_  MARYAM and Luke 1:5-25., The Birth of John the Baptist Foretold., they are essentially same..  and there are plenty of such verses all over Quran where OT& NT statements are transposed .. Often you pick them in defense of your hypothesis ....


    Quote
    After 692 yes whereas it was said in Damascus that the "hajj" must be done to Jerusalem and not to the place that his rival (of Malik) said that it was the place of the Prophet.


    well that is a revelation to me.. You are saying there is rival guy/gang to  Abd al Malik (685-705) .. that may have originated from Present Mecca  or near by places.... did I get that right??

    Altara .. you are shaking the world of Islam.. specially academic Islam ..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9535 - July 29, 2020, 02:11 PM

    Quote
    well that is a revelation to me.. You are saying there is rival guy/gang to  Abd al Malik (685-705) .. that may have originated from Present Mecca  or near by places.... did I get that right??


    You did not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9536 - July 29, 2020, 03:25 PM

    Mehdy Shaddel

    ʿAbd Allāh ibn al-Zubayr and the Mahdī: Between Propaganda and Historical Memory in the Second Civil War
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9537 - July 29, 2020, 03:52 PM

    A A Dixon

    The Umayyad Caliphate 65-86/684-705: A political study (PhD thesis)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9538 - July 29, 2020, 09:40 PM

    Zeca, the site seems down for me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9539 - July 30, 2020, 03:28 AM

    Zeca, the site seems down for me.

    well I could download that Ph. D. thesis on  THE UMAYYAD CALIPHATE 6 5 -8 6 /6 8 4 -7 0 5 (A POLITICAL STUDY)  by  Abd Al-Am eer 1 Abd Dixon

    but he is toeing the conventional story of Islam  similar to  Ridda Wars  of that nightly guided caliphs but moved in to year 6 8 4 -7 0 5

    You did not.


    so explain me on the Hajj in the present Mecca .. when did it start and under whose Islamic  regime??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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