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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9450 - June 27, 2020, 11:27 AM

    David Power: https://www.academia.edu/43308856/The_Quran_and_its_Legal_Environment

    Yes, very strong article again showing the link of the Quran with northern Arabia/Levant.

    I would completely agree TO DISAGREE with anyone who says that dear mundi.,  what page of that 22 pages publication says that?  what one can say at best is  this "CERTAIN SELECTIVE VERSES FROM QURAN APPEARS TO HAVE ORIGINATED FROM  NORTHERN ARABIA?LEVANT"

    but Quran the book I read often.. NO.... NOPE.. 

    anyways I ahve to read that publication again but before that I have to read those Quran verses independently  and as well as in different contexts that one can think..

    Quote
    Powers ends with connecting the Quranic AUDIENCE with that area and that I dont understand. Who knows where the audience was or who it was. I think the verses he explains only link with certainty the author(s) of these verses, and only maybe, a supposed audience.

     well as far as i am concerned THE ADDED VERSES in to those Q manuscripts appears to have been directed to "SOME AUDIENCE " and they must be leaders in warfare and leader in community and leaders in preaching robes..

    Quote
    PS: what kind of show was preformed with the Quranic text that "the audience" was read legal texts?

    you are talking about NOT 20th and 21st century but 7th century to all the way to colonial period.. So yes., certain religious statements/religious  edicts /religious rituals  did became legal texts to the society of that time

    Quote
    Do law students today (the audience) who are reading Roman or Napoleonic law, necessarily have a connection with Italy or France? Of course not

     Well even today.,  some IDIOTS IN ISLAM & FAITH HEADS IN ISLAM (even in other faiths)do take nonsense from religious texts of cave men times  as word of some allah/god  hence they use it as legal texts to the society that they want to control ..anyways I have to read those verses that  David Power used in his pub..

    well here are 1st 10 verses he used ..

    Quote
    Q 33:37: Nay: he has come with the truth and verified the apostles.

    Q 2:219: They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder.

    Q 4:11 Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise..

    Q 5:90 O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful..

    Q 2:106  Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?.[/i]

    , Q 16:101:  And when We change (one) communication for (another) communication, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: You are only a forger. Nay, most of them do not know..[/i]

    , Q 4:43 .,O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

     Q 61:06.,   And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic..

     Q 2:97. Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers..

    Q 6:92., And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her; and those who believe in the hereafter believe in it, and they attend to their prayers constantly.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9451 - June 27, 2020, 03:09 PM

    Yeez,

    You mention " added verses".  Why ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9452 - July 02, 2020, 03:12 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/1277388380138098699
    Quote
    Long before Christoph Luxenberg, medieval Muslim authorities compiled lists of foreign vocabularies in the Quran. The Quran contains words from Ethiopian, Persian, Indian, Turkic, Nabatean, Syriac, Coptic, Hebrew, Greek, and Berber, and Abyssinian origin. A thread.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9453 - July 02, 2020, 03:50 PM



    and she says

    Quote
    Just a reminder that Islamic knowledge should be learnt through books and teachers, not from twitter sheikhs


    off course along with those words  one must use his/her own brain and common sense and I will have to agree with her

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9454 - July 04, 2020, 11:59 AM

    Yeez,

    You mention " added verses".  Why ?

     well on those words "Verses" let me read all those verses again that  David powers   ....https://www.academia.edu/43308856/The_Quran_and_its_Legal_Environment...  used to write his publication..

    Quote
    Q 10:37. And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.

    Q 12:111., Their apostles said to them: We are nothing but mortals like yourselves, but Allah bestows (His) favors on whom He pleases of His servants, and it is not for us that we should bring you an authority except by Allah's permission; and on Allah should the believers rely.

    Q 35:31., And that which We have revealed to you of the Book, that is the truth verifying that which is before it; most surely with respect to His servants Allah is Aware, Seeing.

    Q 46:12., And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good.

    Q 5:48.,  And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

    Q 2.41., And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear

     Q 3:81.,  And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an apostle comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

     Q 4:47., O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.

    Q 2:91., And when it is said to them, Believe in what Allah has revealed, they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that, while it is the truth verifying that which they have. Say: Why then did you kill Allah's Prophets before if you were indeed believers?


    Quote
    Q 17:22-39., 

    17:22:  Do not associate with Allah any other god, lest you sit down despised, neglected.

    17:23:  And your Lord has commanded that you shall not serve (any) but Him, and goodness to your parents. If either or both of them reach old age with you, say not to them (so much as) "Ugh" nor chide them, and speak to them a generous word.

    17:24:  And make yourself submissively gentle to them with compassion, and say: O my Lord! have compassion on them, as they brought me up (when I was) little.

    17:25:  Your Lord knows best what is in your minds; if you are good, then He is surely Forgiving to those who turn (to Him) frequently.

    17:26:  And give to the near of kin his due and (to) the needy and the wayfarer, and do not squander wastefully

    17.27  Surely the squanderers are the fellows of the Shaitans and the Shaitan is ever ungrateful to his Lord.

    17:28  And if you turn away from them to seek mercy from your Lord, which you hope for, speak to them a gentle word.

    17:29    And do not make your hand to be shackled to your neck nor stretch it forth to the utmost (limit) of its stretching forth, lest you should (afterwards) sit down blamed, stripped off.

    17:31 And do not kill your children for fear of poverty; We give them sustenance and yourselves (too); surely to kill them is a great wrong.

    17:32 And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way.

    17:33  And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.

    17:34   And draw not near to the property of the orphan except in a goodly way till he attains his maturity and fulfill the promise; surely (every) promise shall be questioned about.

    17:35  And give full measure when you measure out, and weigh with a true balance; this is fair and better in the end.

    17:36   And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.

    17:37  And do not go about in the land exultingly, for you cannot cut through the earth nor reach the mountains in height.

    17:38  All this-- the evil of it-- is hateful in the sight of your Lord.

    17:39  This is of what your Lord has revealed to you of wisdom, and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away.


    Quote
    Q 6:152-154., 

    Q 6:152 And do not approach the property of the orphan except in the best manner until he attains his maturity, and give full measure and weight with justice-- We do not impose on any soul a duty except to the extent of its ability; and when you speak, then be just though it be (against) a relative, and fulfill Allah's covenant; this He has enjoined you with that you may be mindful;

    Q 6:153 And (know) that this is My path, the right one therefore follow it, and follow not (other) ways, for they will lead you away from His way; this He has enjoined you with that you may guard (against evil).

    Q 6:154  Again, We gave the Book to Musa to complete (Our blessings) on him who would do good (to others), and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord.

    Q 2:182.,  But he who fears an inclination to a wrong course or an act of disobedience on the part of the testator, and effects an agreement between the parties, there is no blame on him. Surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Q 2:282.,  O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things

    Q 4:22., And marry not woman whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way.

    Q 4:23., Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

     Q 24:30-31., 

    Q 24:30  Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.

    Q 24:31   And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

        Q 5:3-5., 

    Q 5:3    Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Q 5:4  They ask you as to what is allowed to them. Say: The good things are allowed to you, and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey, training them to hunt-- you teach them of what Allah has taught you-- so eat of that which they catch for you and mention the name of Allah over it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is swift in reckoning

    Q 5:5  This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

    Q 4:12.,   And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after (payment of) any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm (others); this is an ordinance from Allah: and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.


    there you go .. All those verse and verses in the post at  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg888454#msg888454  are used to David Powers to write his publication...

    So I need to edit  the post and I must answer mundi question..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9455 - July 07, 2020, 11:23 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/ccsahner/status/1280530440877727746
    Quote
    I've recently been reading the work of Josef van Ess, the great German scholar of Islamic Studies. Here's an accessible interview he did in English, in which he spells out his views of the origins of Islam. Some quotes below (see esp. the last point!)



    The Origins of Islam: A Conversation with the German Islamic Scholar Josef van Ess

    http://www.goethe.de/ges/phi/prj/ffs/the/a96/en8626506.htm
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9456 - July 08, 2020, 09:59 AM

    Quote
    A. "[Islam was not one thing at the beginning but] a conglomerate of different nuclei, primarily in the new garrison cities – Basra and Kufa, Fustat in Egypt, Hims in Syria ...


    A nuclei around Quranic texts (not necessarily all). There was no Prophet, no Mecca, no Kaba in the real world, except in the allusion of the Quranic texts

    Quote
    4/ "... So in these places there are a couple of so-called companions of the Prophet, who are later also revered and around whom a sort of Islam configures. But I’m convinced that it was quite different in Kufa to Hims or Fustat"


    It was quite different because different Arab people got Quranic texts.

    Quote
    A. "The communication between the centres was weak. Of course people travelled, and of course they had some kind of Koran[ic] text that they adhered to ...


    That is correct.

    Quote
    6/ "... [But] the question is whether the Koran was even central to the religion at this time. From my point of view: no, it wasn’t ..."


    Enough for some to build in the Temple Mount.

    Quote
    What united the congregation was far more the manner of their communal prayer. The peculiar gymnastics they perform in the process – the proskynesis – it’s quite unique. And everyone else noticed it...8/ "Significantly, prayer was led by the governor, or by whichever general was present at the time – almost as a military discipline."


    No comment. Why not.
    Quote
    9/ Q. Does that mean that each city developed its own school of Islam?

    A. "Yes. Even in places like Kufa, or later Baghdad, I would not assume that there was one unified Islam.."


    Rationale/logical.


    Quote
    10/ Q. You’re painting an almost atomistic image of Islam.

    A. "Or I’m inverting the established image. In the beginning there is plurality – unity comes later…


    That is correct.
    No statement about the origin of the Quranic texts. Too bad...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9457 - July 08, 2020, 06:32 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/CellardEleonore/status/1280840140622049280
    Quote
    People often think that the earliest Qur’an manuscripts have no diacritical dots. Actually, that’s a mistake.. To my view, the earliest ms completely devoid of dots is likely from the 9-10th CE from Maghreb

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9458 - July 09, 2020, 10:53 AM

    Quote
    I would avoid the word "consistently" regarding the early Qur'an manuscripts. But yes, there are dots here and there


    Yes. And no vowels. What we see is a slow deciphering of the text with the help of the Syriac device : dots.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9459 - July 09, 2020, 09:20 PM

    Podcast: https://anchor.fm/bottled-petrichor/episodes/E6-1_All-About-Arabic_Dr--Marijn-van-Putten-ecbi9j
    Quote
    Join me as I discuss the history of Arabic with Dr. Marijn van Putten of Leiden University. Dr. van Putten describes to me the field of historical linguistics and discusses topics such as Proto-Semitic, loan words, how Arabic was spoken in pre-modern times, the difference between Qur'anic and Classical Arabic, pronunciation variations, and more!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9460 - July 09, 2020, 09:22 PM

    Podcast: https://anchor.fm/bottled-petrichor/episodes/E6-2_Transmission-of-the-Quran_Dr-Marijn-van-Putten-ecf3vd
    Quote
    Second part of my discussion with Dr. Marijn van Putten, with a focus this time on the Qurʼān. We discuss the study of manuscripts, some of the doctor's main findings, the ways in which contemporary research agrees/disagrees with claims made by earlier scholars of the Qurʼān, and more!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9461 - July 09, 2020, 09:24 PM

    Podcast: https://anchor.fm/bottled-petrichor/episodes/E10-The-Life-of-a-Prophet-with-Dr--Sean-Anthony-eghb1d
    Quote
    Join me as I discuss the sīra and maghāzī literature with Dr. Sean Anthony. Who were the main figures involved in collecting and compiling data about the life and times of the Prophet? How reliable are these works? How do they incorporate Biblical motifs, hagiography, etc? Were elements of his biography ever used polemically? How much did early Muslims, be they scholars or laymen, know about the life of their Prophet? What is the current status of Western scholarship on the sīra and maghāzī literature? How can scholars from different backgrounds collaborate to further the study of this literature? And more!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9462 - July 10, 2020, 01:03 PM



    Thanks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9463 - July 10, 2020, 11:29 PM



    So why is that "Bottled Petrichor" hiding his identity ?   and why that nick??.. anyway it is good .. progress is being made even if the name is hidden in the internet.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9464 - July 11, 2020, 07:57 AM

    So why is that "Bottled Petrichor" hiding his identity ?   and why that nick??.. anyway it is good .. progress is being made even if the name is hidden in the internet.....


    I had to look up what petrichor is
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9465 - July 12, 2020, 01:32 PM

    I had to look up what petrichor is


    I think he deliberately misspelling his nick... IT SHOULD BE "PETTYCHOR"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9466 - July 12, 2020, 04:16 PM

    Review of Sean Anthony’s Muhammad and the Empires of Faith

    https://eireviews.blogspot.com/2020/07/muhammad-empires-of-faith-review.html

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1282051068600483844
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9467 - July 13, 2020, 09:50 AM

    Having realised that it was in fact only partly "starting again", she is working to resolve this issue following this explanatory memorandum. She does so by exhorting from an external source (the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati/ The Teaching of Jacob, the Newly Baptized) accepted as contemporary to the events of the 7th century and featuring a prophetic figure (P. Crone indicates that this figure preached a Jewish messianism (from this text she elaborates a different framework for the events of the 7th century than that of the narrative) but hooks him back to this wagon by identifying him with the Prophet Muḥammad: " That is to say, the heart of the Prophet's message, in the first testimony we have outside the Islamic tradition, appears to be a Jewish messianism. "Hagarism, op.cit., 1977, p.4.) accompanying arriving Arabs. From scholarship, this text is linked to the figure that produces the Qur'anic corpus presented by the Muslim narrative - more late. Who else could it be?  these events of the 7th century in Palestine-Syria obviously reflect the jihād ordered by the Prophet Muḥammad as narrated by Muslim historiography. ("One of the earliest non-Islamic testimonies to the existence of the Prophet Muḥammad is found in the Byzantine apologetic tract known as the Doctrina Iacobi nuper baptizati. "S.W. Anthony, "Muḥammad, the Keys to Paradise, and the Doctrina Iacobi: A Late Antique Puzzle", Der Islam, De Gruyter, 243-265, 2014, p.243.)
    It turns out that it can be difficult to pass such a source under rigorous scrutiny when it allows the thorny subject of Muhammad's historical existence to be evacuated by identifying him with the prophetic figure of the Doctrina Jacobi . The importance of the framework "Mecca/Medina/Prophet Muḥammad" is such that the identification is used in almost all scholarship when it cannot help but evoke this text to affirm his historical existence. (Between making a (slight) twist on the Muslim narrative (Mohammed is supposed to have died in Medina in 632) and establishing the existence of a historical Muḥammad, scholarship (quickly) grasped the hierarchy of priorities. Sean Anthony's latest book reflects this concern; the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati plays a seminal role in establishing a historical Muḥammad, cf. S.W. Anthony, Muhammad and the Empires of Faith: The Making of the Prophet of Islam, University of California Press, 2020.)

    To these two theories which present the Mohammed of Mecca as an author of all or part of the Koranic corpus identified by scholarship with the prophetic figure of the  Doctrina Jacobi , two objections will be raised.
    It can be seen that the Qur'an abundantly describes the end of the world  and neither presents, nor announces any return of the Messiah. However, the Doctrina does (remarkably) the opposite.
    Another is the fact that it is the only text (there are many) recounting the conflicting events of the 7th century, which bears witness to a messianic announcement attributed to an "Arab" figure and for which the Arabs were the spokesmen. If this idea was common to the Arabs of the time, one would expect to find it in other authors of the 7th and the first quarter of the 8th century.This is (obviously) not the case. This is why the identification of the prophetic figure of the Doctrina Jacobi  with the author of "logia" from Mecca is not to be accepted.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9468 - July 13, 2020, 01:11 PM

    Having realised that it was in fact only partly "starting again", she is working to resolve this issue following this explanatory memorandum. She does so by exhorting.............................



    Hello   Altara., who is that "SHE" ?

    Review of Sean Anthony’s Muhammad and the Empires of Faith

    https://eireviews.blogspot.com/2020/07/muhammad-empires-of-faith-review.html
    ...

      and zeca + Altara..curious  about that blogger.,  that wrote   EI REVIEWS OF THAT BOOK...  .  He/she did a good job .. I wonder who that https://mobile.twitter.com/tom47748/status/1282030699164372993     "tom47748 "   is...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9469 - July 13, 2020, 02:03 PM

    https://eireviews.blogspot.com/2020/07/muhammad-empires-of-faith-review.html
    Robinson
    Quote
    No historian familiar with the relevant evidence doubts that in the early seventh century many Arabs acknowledged a man named Muḥammad as a law-giving prophet in a line of monotheist prophets, that he formed and led a community of some kind in Arabia, and, finally, that this community-building functioned, in one way or another, to trigger conquests that established Islamic rule across much of the Mediterranean and Near East in the middle third of the seventh century.


    I'm not agree on this. In the West Orient Greek speaking world there is no "Muḥammad" as such. The Doctrina do not name it. It is not then "many Arabs acknowledged named Muḥammad " but eastern Arabs which state this name reported by Christian Syriac /Armenians eastern writers.

    Anthony

    Quote
    When viewed as overlapping layers of evidence, rather than mutually exclusive antagonists, these three “first-order” sources offer what one might call a “low-resolution view” of the historical Muḥammad to guide us in approaching the sīrah-maghāzī literature, and against which its narratives can be measured. Based on these early cardinal sources, it seems beyond doubt that in the first half of the seventh century there emerged a law-giving claimant to prophecy from Arabia, a Saracen/Ishmaelite merchant from an Arabic-speaking tribe named Muḥammad, who claimed to culminate a long line of monotheistic Abrahamic prophets gifted with divine revelation. Furthermore, we can deduce on a well-sourced evidentiary basis that this prophetic claimant, whose earliest followers regarded themselves as descendants of the biblical patriarch Abraham, formed a community in Western Arabia and became a ruler in Yathrib. This community coalesced around the prophet’s teachings, instantiated in a revelation called the Qurʾan. Inspired by this prophet’s teachings, the new community embarked on wide-reaching campaigns of conquest, which from the mid-seventh century on swiftly engulfed much of [the] Near East, including Sasanid Persia and much of the Eastern Roman Empire.


    All of this are key words communicated by Arabs  and written by Sebeos supposedly in the 7th century . This story would be only known by him. For me it is not plausible. (pseudo) Sebeos is from the 8th c.not the 7th.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9470 - July 13, 2020, 02:15 PM

    Altara - what are the arguments that have been made for a 7th century date for Sebeos?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9471 - July 13, 2020, 02:17 PM

    and zeca + Altara..curious  about that blogger.,  that wrote   EI REVIEWS OF THAT BOOK...  .  He/she did a good job .. I wonder who that https://mobile.twitter.com/tom47748/status/1282030699164372993     "tom47748 "   is...


    I’ve no idea who he is but I put up a link to this thread previously: https://mobile.twitter.com/tom47748/status/1239631760490729472
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9472 - July 13, 2020, 03:22 PM

    Sinai
    Quote
    "Western students of the Quran ... perceive themselves as divided into camps defined by incompatible historical assumptions: whether the Quran is a text originating from seventh-century Arabia, whether it may be legitimately linked with the figure of Muhammad, whether it is possible to make diachronic distinctions within the Quranic corpus, etc."


    The two first "whether" is not two camps : it is the same one when one sees the narrative.
    Quote
    To be clear, even a field as divided as Quranic Studies does have outer limits -- few, for instance, would dispute the Quran's status as a basically 7th century text


    I dispute (yawn...)

    Quote
    Anthony's approach is not affected by all or even most of these questions,


    That is the issue.

    Quote
    but some of them do impact how precisely the Quran can function as a first-order source.


    Yes.

    Quote
    recognising that one need not accede to his larger interpretive scheme to recognise that the Quran provides much information on the early community:


    There is no community as there is no Mecca before Islam.

    Anthony
    Quote
    Even if interpreting the Qurʾan historically is a formidable task, the qurʾanic text fills out the outlines of a “mere Muḥammad” that is much in accord with what one can infer from the earliest non-Muslim accounts of his life.

    Quote
    Anthony's contention that the Quranic "mere Muhammad" is "much in accord what one can infer from the earliest non-Muslim accounts of his life", though, may be more controversial.

    Yes.
    The earliest non-Muslim accounts of his life is Sebeos 8th and not 7th c from Arabs informants.

    Quote
    Early Non-Muslim Accounts


    I already stated  here about Sebeos and the DJ. None of these proves anything about the existence of "Muhammad" being part of the "Kaba/Mecca/Medina/Abu Bakr" frame.

    Quote
    More novel is Anthony's dive into the question of Muhammad's occupation. His discussion of the evidence on this topic is extensive and cannot be done justice to here, but in short he suggests we take seriously Jacob of Edessa’s depiction of a well-travelled, trading, Muhammad. Unlike the sira-maghazi corpus’ largely Hijaz-circumscribed shepherd Prophet, Jacob presents a merchant Muhammad, one who engaged in trade trips to the Levant as late as 619 CE. In Anthony's words: "Jacob's depiction of Muḥammad’s journeys should be accepted as more plausible, and likely more historical, than the depiction of Muḥammad as a man scarcely acquainted with trade or travel found in the sīrah-maghāzī literature."


    Jacob in late 7 and 8th c. The narrative is developed by Arabs after 692, not before.
    Quote
    Provided one accepts at least some connection between the historical Muhammad and the Quran (Anthony does), this can redound to the scripture as well. Anthony touches on this in pointing to many of the "Meccan" Quran’s geographic features, features that largely fit the travels and trade routes of long-distance Qurayshi merchants. Crone -- appropriately cited on this issue -- remarked on these aspects previously, and though she by the end of her life preferred a concrete North Arabian settlement supplementing the Mecca and Medina of tradition, a solution centred around such trade travels seems preferable.


    Crone notify that what she wrote in this article is what could have been the commerce in the Mecca/Kaba/Ali frame and not "have been".

    Quote
    she by the end of her life preferred a concrete North Arabian settlement supplementing the Mecca and Medina of tradition


    She never dug up this assumption which causes many issues.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9473 - July 13, 2020, 07:04 PM

    Altara - what are the arguments that have been made for a 7th century date for Sebeos?


    None to my knowledge. And they have named it "pseudo" Sebeos.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9474 - July 13, 2020, 07:58 PM

    Sean Anthony - Why Does the Qur'an Need the Meccan Sanctuary?

    https://www.academia.edu/40662088/Why_Does_the_Quran_Need_the_Meccan_Sanctuary_Response_to_Professor_Gerald_Hawtings_2017_Presidential_Address?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9475 - July 13, 2020, 09:19 PM



    and to entertain that idea Quran needs Mecca/Meccan Sanctuary    Sean Anthony uses "Verses 35 to 41 of that Surah Abraham"  on page 29 of his publication., I say ..........HE IS  WRONG........... Quran Doesn't need Mecca or Meccan Sanctuary.  Mecca and Meccan Sanctuary in Islam serves different purpose

    Mecca and Meccan Sanctuary is needed for expansion of Islamist rulers for collecting the loot & booty (NOT FOR ISLAM) through the story of Muhammad(PBUH)

    Quote
    35.   And when Ibrahim said: My Lord! make this city secure, and save me and my sons from worshipping idols:

    36.   My Lord! surely they have led many men astray; then whoever follows me, he is surely of me, and whoever disobeys me, Thou surely art Forgiving, Merciful:

    37.   O our Lord! surely I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Thy Sacred House, our Lord! that they may keep up prayer; therefore make the hearts of some people yearn towards them and provide them with fruits; haply they may be grateful:

    38.   O our Lord! Surely Thou knowest what we hide and what we make public, and nothing in the earth nor any thing in heaven is hidden from Allah:

    39.   Praise be to Allah, Who has given me in old age Ismail and Ishaq; most surely my Lord is the Hearer of prayer:

    40.   My Lord! make me keep up prayer and from my offspring (too), O our Lord, and accept my prayer:

    41.   O our Lord! grant me protection and my parents and the believers on the day when the reckoning shall come to pass
    !


    but I wonder why    Sean Anthony  choose those verses to make his point  the need of "Meccan Sanctuary for Quran" .. he could have taken  many verses from Quran   and say same thing..
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9476 - July 13, 2020, 10:16 PM

    The connection to Mecca certainly isn’t obvious to me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9477 - July 14, 2020, 06:54 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1282861742943604737
    Quote
    Let’s talk abt the famous variant reading of Q. Rūm 30:2 and some misconceptions. The verse simply reads “The Romans are defeated (غلبت الروم|ġulibati r-rūm)”, but another reading is attested, “The Romans conquered (ġalabati r-rūm),” which early MSS theoretically accommodate.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9478 - July 15, 2020, 12:03 AM

    Interesting. Besides, the article of Silverstein is a must read.
     https://t.co/JmN45A4acg?amp=1
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9479 - July 17, 2020, 05:09 PM

    So Romans.. Surah_Ar-Room.....,   Ar-Room  and Academics  ...  there is something wrong with these folks who publish papers from Academic institutions on the history of Quran..   well I am NOT in it for a Job or for a grant or holding the  job  so I should not worry about theese fellows   but worry about Quran itself

    So zeca says
     and Altara responds with a pdf publication on those silly verses
    Interesting. Besides, the article of Silverstein is a must read.
     https://t.co/JmN45A4acg?amp=1


    So dear Altara I am curious here., Why these publications specially since 1960s on that Romans in Quran deals with only  first few  verses  from that  that surah-30., why not whole surah.. All 60 verses..
    Quote
    2.    The Romans are vanquished,

    3.    In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,

    4.    Within a few years. Allah's is the command before and after; and on that day the believers shall rejoice,

    5.    With the help of Allah; He helps whom He pleases; and He is the Mighty, the Merciful;


     hope you are slugging away with your book

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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