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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9360 - June 12, 2020, 11:11 AM

    Ahmad Al-Jallad - ʿArab, ʾAʿrāb, and Arabic in Ancient North Arabia: the first attestation of (ʾ)ʿrb as a group name in Safaitic

    https://www.academia.edu/41753832/Al-Jallad._2020._ʿArab_ʾAʿrāb_and_Arabic_in_Ancient_North_Arabia_the_first_attestation_of_ʾ_ʿrb_as_a_group_name_in_Safaitic
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9361 - June 12, 2020, 12:11 PM

     M.C.A. Macdonald
    LITERACY IN AN ORAL ENVIRONMENT
    https://www.academia.edu/4423190/Literacy_in_an_oral_environment
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9362 - June 12, 2020, 10:26 PM

    Philip Wood - Christianity in the Arabian Peninsula

    https://www.academia.edu/42289041/Draft_Christianity_in_the_Arabian_Peninsula
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9363 - June 13, 2020, 09:03 AM

    Altara - I’d be interested to know if you find much to disagree with in Philip Wood’s article.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9364 - June 13, 2020, 11:16 AM

    I will  (briefly) comment it here, it is an interesting one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9365 - June 13, 2020, 04:24 PM

    I will emphasis key points and posing questions.

    Quote
    Several papers delivered at this workshop contend that different suras in multiple
    “Qur’anic communities” were composed in Christian contexts. Carlos Segovia argues for the existence of four attitudes to Christianity in the Qur’ān. He proposes that the “unclear dissemination of vague identity markers against a background of common ideas and practices” gradually gave way to more firm boundaries between religious communities. For him, this explains the composition of sections of the Qur’ān that identify with Christianity from the inside, even as other references pursue a kind of unitarian theology that denies the divinity of Jesus.1


    Quote
    1= 1 Segovia develops these ideas further in The Quranic Jesus. At p. 26 he notes the many ways in which the Qur’an describes Jesus, many of which are compatible with a Trinitarian theology if taken individually

    1/ Which ones?
    2/ Where, when?
    3/ Then, how he explains that it is not the Christian Jesus?
    4/ Segovia has abandoned (?) the field and is back to what he was trained : philosophy.

    Quote
    Guillaume Dye also argues for the later adaptation of Christian material He persuasively points to the alteration of the rhyme scheme of sura 19 and the insertion of anti-Christian material into a text that is “definitely not anti-Christian.”He states that this material originated in the liturgy and popular Christian traditions. He goes on to suggest that the specific context for this ‟Arabic soghitha” can be found in the Kathisma church near Jerusalem. He situates the composer of the original text in a multi-lingual milieu, where Greek, Aramaic, and Arabic were all used, and underscores the text’s broad Christology, which does not alienate any Christian group.2


    1/I disagree on this. For me, it is not an insertion. Dye did not read the sura entirely.
    2/Idem, I disagree. Even if Jesus is presented as a prophet in Acts, it is not what is taught in the Church. Therefore what it is written alienate any  post Nicean Christian group (Jacobites, Nestorians, Chalcedonians).
    3/Will Dye will come back to what he was trained which is the same field of Segovia? I dunno.

    Quote
    Finally, Karl-Friedrich Pohlmann has highlighted the use of Christian honorific titles for Jesus (Q 4:171; 19:30; 19:34) and the close relationship between Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Virgin, which is not seen for any other prophet. He proposes that this originated with an educated Christian who ‟converted” into the Qur’anic community.3 Furthermore, he suggests that we should imagine that different parts of the Qur’ān were composed in different milieus, and that these parts were then combined in a single text. He also points to the multiple treatments of Iblīs (Q 2, Q 7, and Q 20) as a parallel to the various creation stories at the opening of Genesis


    1/Yes. What does he make of that?
    2/Segovia like.

    Quote
    All of these approaches aim to place the Qur’ān, ‟a profoundly ahistorical text,” into history by attempting to reconstruct the kinds of communities that generated different suras.4 They also attempt to undermine the idea that boundaries between religious communities and their ideas are “natural.” 1/Just as students of the Jesus cult emphasized that it must be seen as a movement within Judaism that incorporated Gentiles, 2/so too we must stress that the Qur’ān was composed within the milieus of late antique monotheisms.

    1/I'm only partially agree with this. I won't say more.
    2/What was true in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th c. is not in the 5th, 6th, 7th c.
    3/ I do not see the link between 1 and 2.

    Quote
    The three approaches also share the idea that the Qur’ān is layered. Thus Dye identifies an original Christian background in Q 19, with subsequent interventions, while Segovia uses attitudes to Christian lore as the basis for his fourfold dating of the Qur’ān as a whole. Of course, there have been numerous attempts to divide the Qur’ān into different layers of composition,6 and the shift in attitude toward the Jews has long been recognized, but Pohlmann, Dye, and Segovia identify the layers of composition that either originate within Christian communities or show a high level of familiarity with Christian texts. In this sense they share the approaches of Lüling and Luxenberg, though they do not share their normative aspirations for the ‘reformation’ of modern Islam.7

    1/ Where are the material attestations of this?
    2/ Yes.
    Quote
    Dye and Segovia explain the layering effect by suggesting that parts of the Qur’ān were composed after the Arab conquests of Syria and the Levant.8 But another possibility, which does not exclude the first,9 is that the layered effect of the Qur’ān predates the Arab conquests and is the product of an act of compilation, as well as composition. Lüling, for instance, argues that Muḥammad compiled earlier Christian material, which he supplemented, after which post-Muḥammadan Islamic material was added as well.10 This earlier material might have been composed simultaneously by different ‟proto-Qur’anic communities.” Gilliot suggests that the accusations that Muḥammad relied on foreign informants imply a recent importation of Biblical lore into the Ḥijāz, and one could imagine that the proto-Qur’anic communities were the source of this novel material.11


    1/It's just as fuzzy as the Dye/Segovia theory. Wood is still stuck to Kaba/Zem Zem. He tries to mix this story with what is (real) historical sources. The sole issue is that the outcome cannot be (for me...) considered as historical.

    Quote
    I argue that three factors should increase the plausibility (though not provability) of greater Christian exposure to the Arabian Peninsula, namely the increased role of the Arab clients of the Romans and Persians; the missionary expansion of the Miaphysites in the borderlands between the empires, and the growth of Christian influence within Sasanian Mesopotamia.


    1/ What part of Arabian peninsula? We know them : Najran/Yemen/the East. That is all. Elsewhere it is not the peninsula.

    Quote
    I begin by comparing the cultural production of the Jafnid and Naṣrid kings, the major Arab clients of the Romans and Persians, before examining the possible role their patronage may have had on the dissemination and prestige of the Arabic language and on the composition of the kinds of Christian inclined material that have been posited by Dye, Segovia, and Pohlmann. I conclude by postulating that the different kinds of intra-Christian Qur’anic material that they identify may have developed in different Christian contexts.

    1/All of this has nothing to see with the Western peninsula (until Najran) as we have no material attestations. Moreover, he knows it : (p.16) "However, I do not find anything in the sixth-century literary sources to suggest that Christianity was significant in the Ḥijāz." So what? Hijaz or not?
     (I consider Dumat as not being in the peninsula and being influenced by Iraq.) What he calls "Christian inclined material" of the Quran is not "Christian" as such, it uses Christian figures and theology but we are obliged to be (very) precise: this is not (at all) the same thing.

    Quote
    Conclusions
    I have set out evidence here for the presence of Miaphysite and Dyophysite Christianity
    in the Arabian Peninsula and ascribed a major role to Ḥīra as a gateway for missions to
    the south.
    I have suggested the possibility that the contact zone between Syriac and
    Arabic was an area where Arabic script might have been used and developed, and
    where proto-Qur’anic Christian material might have emerged and been disseminated.


    1/Yes. East coast, as Najran-Yemen know already Christianity one way or another before the 6th c. But nothing in the Hijaz.
    2/ What is "proto-Qur’anic Christian material"? I do not know. However, I do know "Christianity"
    which conveys all the figures of it from Edessa to Qatar and from Najran to Yemen. All this places are inhabited by Arabs.
    Quote
    Accusations of the falsification of Scripture may also originate in Christian anti-Jewish polemic.
    Andrae, Les Origins de l’Islam et le christianisme,
    p. 203.


    1/ All the anti-Jewish polemic is Christian.

    Quote
    It is also possible to imagine later points of transmission to a community of believers/Muslims that had already acquired a relatively distinct identity.The transmission of the Syriac Alexander legend might be an example of this, one in which a narrative modeled on the conquests of Heraclius in Iran was adapted to strip it of any specifically Christian resonance.121
    And Guillaume Dye plausibly argues for a context in post-conquest Palestine for the incorporation of substantial parts of Sura 19.


    1/Syriac Alexander legend can be a later insertion or not. It as no incidence on the core text of the Quran in the 6/7th c. Would it be absent, it'd change what? Nothing.
    2/Dye is wrong in his analysis of Sura 19.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9366 - June 13, 2020, 05:16 PM

    Syriac Alexander legend can be a later insertion or not. It as no incidence on the core text of the Quran. Would it be absent, it'd change what? Nothing.

    just curious.,   in your view  WHAT IS THE CORE TEXT OF QURAN??   and which surah/ which verses of Quran represent the  CORE TEXT OF QURAN .??

    Quote
    2/Dye is wrong in his analysis of Sura 19.

     Cheesy   Dye  should re-read whole  sura-19....surah_"Maraym".... Surah-44  .. whatever ...  preferably from this forum ., here are the links

    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847206#msg847206
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847350#msg847350
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847402#msg847402
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847418#msg847418
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg847451#msg847451

    those five posts puts out all 98 verses of  sura-19....surah_"Maraym".....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9367 - June 13, 2020, 05:46 PM

    Quote
    just curious in your view ., WHAT IS THE CORE TEXT OF QURAN ., and which surah/ which verses of Quran represent the  CORE TEXT OF QURAN .??

     which verses of Quran represent the  CORE TEXT OF QURAN I should have add in the 6/7th.c.

    Hahaha! Ask Muslims scholars in the field in Academia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9368 - June 13, 2020, 05:50 PM

    which verses of Quran represent the  CORE TEXT OF QURAN I should have addedin the 6/7th.c.

     you mean to say that question should be posed as

    Which verses of Quran represent the  CORE TEXT OF QURAN in the 6th/7th century?

    Quote
    Hahaha! Ask Muslims scholars in the field in Academia.

    Why Muslims scholars of Academia? why not Non-Muslim Islamic scholars of Academia?? how about our  Mahgraye ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9369 - June 13, 2020, 09:50 PM

    Ask whoever you want!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9370 - June 13, 2020, 10:48 PM

    Ask whoever you want!

    well then .. I value your opinion .. hence that "whoever" is "you".. but tel me bit about this publication of your post..


    I am sure you read it... that is a very good publication...  If we club his linguistic/language development model with that of  Al-Jallad's work on "Safaitic_The_Semitic_Languages" . it may give the reader the background of Quran writers ..

    https://www.academia.edu/35134178/Al-Jallad._2019._Safaitic_The_Semitic_Languages_2nd_edition_

    Well .. apart from that Dye  article.,   do you suggest any other publications  on "what has been added in to Quran manuscripts to make the present book "

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9371 - June 14, 2020, 09:12 AM

    just curious.,   in your view  WHAT IS THE CORE TEXT OF QURAN??   


    The “core text” mobilizes specific theological dogmas,. You can identified them throughout the all text. Q 19: 1-33 is one of them for example.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9372 - June 14, 2020, 12:07 PM

    Another article from Philip Wood:

    Paradigms of Religion in Late Antiquity

    https://www.academia.edu/42155039/Draft_Paradigms_of_Religion_in_Late_Antiquity
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9373 - June 14, 2020, 12:12 PM

    The “core text” mobilizes specific theological dogmas,. You can identified them throughout the all text. Q 19: 1-33 is one of them for example.

     I hope I understood your point.,  So.... Core texts  of Quran mobilizes specific theological dogmas in context with time  that  they were written..

    that is a good point indeed we can Identify  those so-called texts ...CORE TEXTS....  which are nothing but stories from OT & NT in Arabic.... right?? or am I  wrong??

     and in this  Chronological History of  Islam  

    Quote
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija.
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.


    All that is nonsense Islamic stories that were put together some 2/300 years after Qutan is published as a book.. Hence early history of Islam can only be extracted from the book Quran..

    and how about this one

    Quote
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.   Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
    633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
    634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
    635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
    636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
    637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
    638: Conquest of Jazirah.
    639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
    640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
    641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
    642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
    643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
    644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    645: Campaigns in Fats.
    646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
    647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
    648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
    651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
    652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
    657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
    658: Battle of Nahrawan.
    659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
    660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.

    would you consider all that also gibberish and it came out of story tellers of Islam??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9374 - June 14, 2020, 12:17 PM

    I’m curious about how the conquest of the peninsula fits into the history if we assume the traditional narrative is a myth.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9375 - June 14, 2020, 12:28 PM

    I’m curious about how the conquest of the peninsula fits into the history if we assume the traditional narrative is a myth.

    that is a very good question to answer specially before the year 700  ..and between the year 632 -700.,

    Complete new narrative of Islamic history is needed there,,,

    Quote
    662: Khawarij revolts.
    666: Raid of Sicily.
    670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
    672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
    674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
    677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
    680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
    682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa.
    683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
    684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat.
    685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
    686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
    687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
    691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
    692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph. 
    695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.
    700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9376 - June 14, 2020, 12:46 PM

    Quote
    CORE TEXTS....  which are nothing but stories from OT & NT in Arabic


    Do the stories of Hūd and Sāliḥ are from the OT & NT?

    Quote
    and in this Chronological History of  Islam 


    is not historical.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9377 - June 14, 2020, 01:00 PM

    Do the stories of Hūd and Sāliḥ are from the OT & NT?


    Do we really have stories on those figures .... Hūd....Sāliḥ.... in Quran like the ones in chapter19 ? or just names....

    Quote
    is not historical.

    well then we need that history to understand the present Islam  So you need to write another big book on that...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9378 - June 14, 2020, 01:10 PM

    I think too much purpose and dialogue is read into the Quran.

    I think Gallez desbribes well the circumstances of the Quranic collection: a quick search and collection of  material to be given the status of Holy Book. Some of the material fit in with the project of developping a new theology, other material had as only virtue the fact that it existed and had the role of page filling.

    Dye's dating of S19 as post conquest is strange indeed. Especially in the light of the early C14.  The much more logical explanation would be the Northern Arabian origin of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9379 - June 14, 2020, 01:27 PM

    I think too much purpose and dialogue is read into the Quran.

    Quote
    I think Gallez desbribes well the circumstances of the Quranic collection: a quick search and collection of  material to be given the status of Holy Book. Some of the material fit in with the project of developping a new theology, other material had as only virtue the fact that it existed and had the role of page filling.


    Dye's dating of S19 as post conquest is strange indeed. Especially in the light of the early C14.  The much more logical explanation would be the Northern Arabian origin of the Quran.

    forget Gallez and forget Dye'.. let me ask you the questions dear mundi..

    So you think Quran............the book all of it...... or at least  90% of it.............. is completed by the year 645... that is what C-14 data says.. is it not??

    And do you think Quran played an important role  or any role in expansion of Islam from its birth place .... whether it is northern Arabia.......Syria or Jordan Petra.... between the years 650 to 700...  Or this religious book had no role in Islamic expansion from Arabian peninsula  to faraway lands.. such as North Africa .. Spain.... Iran... etc..etc land s

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9380 - June 14, 2020, 01:36 PM

    Yeez,

    1/ Quran omplete by 645 CE: yes

    2/ Role of Quran in expansion:

    The contents of the book doesnt seem to be important during the first decades of the conquest. The theology was probably transmitted in an oral form through simple slogans. A book was necessary, the contents not so much. Only later was the content of the book studied in detail and a cross-pollination started between an already existing practice and the content of the book.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9381 - June 14, 2020, 01:48 PM

    Quote
    Do we really have stories on those figures .... Hūd....Sāliḥ.... in Quran like the ones in chapter19 ? or just names....


    Stories are just names.
    Quote
    well then we need that history to understand the present Islam

    Personally I do not think so.  For me, the present Islam situation is easily comprehensible without knowing the history of its origins.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9382 - June 14, 2020, 01:58 PM

    Yeez,

    1/ Quran omplete by 645 CE: yes


    The rasm only (for me...)


    Quote
    2/ Role of Quran in expansion:

    The contents of the book doesnt seem to be important during the first decades of the conquest.


    Except (for me...) the 637 building in Jerusalem where only the Arab leaders were involved and followed the literati who were with them.literati who were not the authors of those texts and were slowly deciphered the rasm.

    Quote
    The theology was probably transmitted in an oral form through simple slogans

    .
    The core theology est very simple.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9383 - June 14, 2020, 02:24 PM

    Another article from Philip Wood:

    Paradigms of Religion in Late Antiquity

    https://www.academia.edu/42155039/Draft_Paradigms_of_Religion_in_Late_Antiquity


    My issue with Wood is that he mixes real contemporary historical sources with the Muslims ones of the 9thc which are written according to the master narrative (Kaba/Zem zem) which is (for me...) historically false. Therefore the outcome can only be a "mish-mash" of false deductions and a false understanding of what happened.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9384 - June 14, 2020, 02:46 PM

    Quote
    Except (for me...) the 637 building in Jerusalem where only the Arab leaders were involved and followed the literati who were with them.literati who were not the authors of those texts and were slowly deciphered the rasm.



    Not sure if the Quranic verse itself was the reason of the building on the Temple Mount. The importance of the Temple Mount was omni-present. Maybe the building and the writing have the same source (= the sloganesque proto-theology of the beginning of the 7th C). Maybe even without 2:125 being read or written, the focus of the new ideology would have been the Temple Mount.

    We see in the archeology that the early mosques were not directed at Jerusalem. Of course the writer(s) of the Quran didnt mention any prayer direction (qbl is not prayerdirection but tradition, cfr Kerr, https://www.academia.edu/43107732/Die_islamische_Kabbala_eine_Neuorientierung), but it also means the early readers of the Quran did not read prayer direction into the Quranic verses as the later tradition did.

    So there is ZERO indication that in those early years, the Quran was studied in detail and explained with this Jerusalem focus as it was later.

    That is why I suspect that verse 2:125 did not play a role in anything. The writing of the verse is the consequence of the Zeitgeist just as the building of the house itself was.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9385 - June 14, 2020, 03:27 PM

    Quote
    Maybe even without 2:125 being read or written, the focus of the new ideology would have been the Temple Mount.

    For me (as always...) Ideology cannot come with orality. Except if there is only orality around like in Amazonia for example. And it is not the case in Orient at that time since 2000 years.
    Quote
    but it also means the early readers of the Quran did not read prayer direction into the Quranic verses as the later tradition did.

    Of course it is a later tradition which stems from the narrative which accompanying the deciphering and completing of the rasm with vowels and dots.


    Quote
    So there is ZERO indication that in those early years, the Quran was studied in detail and explained with this Jerusalem focus as it was later.

    I consider that the reason of the 637 mosque can be find in Q 125-127 studied by literati accompanying the Arabs leaders. There is no need of deciphering  and studying the all Quranic texts to explain what says those two verses.
    The later Jerusalem focus tradition narrative comes to explain why there is the Dome of the Rock and the al Aqsa mosque.
    Quote
    The writing of the verse is the consequence of the Zeitgeist just as the building of the house itself was.

    There is no this kind of Zeitgeist  at that time, except for one people: the Jews. And surely not anybody else. Anybody else had to be sufficiently pressed to do it. And Q 125-127 is the perfect mean for that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9386 - June 14, 2020, 03:38 PM

    Quote
    There is no this kind of Zeitgeist  at that time, except for one people: the Jews. And surely not anybody else. Anybody else had to be sufficiently pressed to do it. And Q 125-127 is the perfect mean for that.


    The Jews were pro rebuilding, the Christians were anti.  Applicable here is:

    Quote
    I don't care what you say about me, as long as you say something about me, and as long as you spell my name right.


    "me" is here the Temple Mount.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9387 - June 14, 2020, 04:47 PM

    Quote
    the Christians were anti.


    They were not "anti". Because the issue was simply  irrelevant.
    They were not struggled against people who publicly declare : "We want the Temple rebuilding!"

    There is no this kind of Zeitgeist at that time, except for one people: the Jews. And surely not anybody else. Anybody else had to be sufficiently pressed to do it. And Q 125-127 is the perfect mean for that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9388 - June 14, 2020, 09:13 PM

    Altara,

    You admitted at the beginning of our convo that the core theology was simple, the Koran did not play a big role,


    EXCEPT for 2:125....

    You can assume that, but there is no proof. 2:125 doesnt say that Arabs should start building on the Temple Mount. It is just the cryptic story of Abraham building a house etc...

    Yes, it is possible some litterati found inspiration in that verse, but another 1001 possibilities exist for them to have found inspiration in other stuff.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9389 - June 14, 2020, 10:28 PM

    Quote
    that the core theology was simple,


    Yes.

    Quote
    the Koran did not play a big role,


    Towards the soldiers of the conquest. But not the leaders. It is them who command, and who decide to build in 637. Not the soldiers.

    Quote
    You can assume that, but there is no proof. 2:125 doesn't say that Arabs should start building on the Temple Mount. It is just the cryptic story of Abraham building a house etc...


    Where I employ the word "should"? Nowhere.
    You employ it and change what I mean. Of course there is no proof, I'm not H.G Wells.
    2:125-127 says to Arabs that their ancestors (Abraham and Ishmael) built a house of God.  Where Abraham has built something important and called it a House? In Jerusalem.  Something which do not exist any more. The place is void.  Arabs felt compelled to build something. Why?  Because of  your explications? I responded: they do not work. From where then? For me Gallez is right on this, it is not my idea. And without (very) good arguments I do not see how can I change my mind on this.

    Quote
    Yes, it is possible some litterati found inspiration in that verse,


    And lead the military leaders to built. That's the role of litterati : advise, influence, etc.
    Quote
    but another 1001 possibilities exist for them to have found inspiration in other stuff.


    Which one in the Quranic texts? There is none. And elsewhere? There is none as well.
    Why would Arabs would built in the Temple Mount? You have no response.
    I have a specific one which concerns Arabs. That's all the difference.

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