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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9270 - June 03, 2020, 12:28 PM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - Who is in, who is out? Early Muslim identity through epigraphy and theory
     
    https://www.academia.edu/41940869/WHO_IS_IN_WHO_IS_OUT_EARLY_MUSLIM_IDENTITY_THROUGH_EPIGRAPHY_AND_THEORY
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9271 - June 03, 2020, 12:36 PM


    Well that is a good one ..  Well audience cornered him with their questions.,  It is vital for Academics like Robert Hoyland  .. to interact /dialogue  even
    have International meeting on History of Islam and Quran" in Pakistan on History of Islam


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9272 - June 03, 2020, 12:41 PM

    « Syriac Inscriptions in Syria », dans A History of Syria in One Hundred Sites, Y. Kanjou & A. Tsuneki (éd.), Oxford, Archeopress, 2016, 411-413.
    https://www.academia.edu/26930208/_Syriac_Inscriptions_in_Syria_dans_A_History_of_Syria_in_One_Hundred_Sites_Y._Kanjou_and_A._Tsuneki_%C3%A9d._Oxford_Archeopress_2016_411-413
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9273 - June 03, 2020, 12:53 PM

    I'm not really sure of that.


    Well  what is there not to be sure about it dear Altara ??  it is a very simple statement that you & me are disagreeing

    you are saying ......There was no literature  nothing written in Arabic before Quran book/manuscripts except inscriptions on rocks and stones......    and you are also  enforcing that  by saying Literature(IN ANY ARABIC DAILECTS OF THAT TIME ) does not exist before the Quran.
     
    And I disagree with that ... it is as simple as that...

    Quote
    Literature does not exist before the Quran. "THERE MUST BE " is not a scientific expression. It is your feeling and until it has no evidence, it remains a feeling with no scientific value.


    OK., yes we did not find I agree .,  well let me change few words ..

    instead of "THERE MUST BE"   .. Which I normally use that as slang for gedanken experiment on explorable subjects...

    Would it be Ok if I use the words .." THERE MAY BE"..or ..."THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN.."..??

    Quote
    There was no literature. One have no evidence for the moment of the contrary.

    True there is evidence so far..,  Evidence could have easily been erased  but   I am trying to extract those  missing  Arabic manuscripts  from Quran statements itself...  May be It is going to be a failed experiment ..  I am an expert of doing failed experiment

    Quote
    Both.

    Well I consider Quran manuscripts are different from the present book Quran.,  Would you differ and    consider  Quran manuscripts and the present book Quran is exactly same and no modifications were done to those early manuscripts??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9274 - June 03, 2020, 12:59 PM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - Who is in, who is out? Early Muslim identity through epigraphy and theory
     
    https://www.academia.edu/41940869/WHO_IS_IN_WHO_IS_OUT_EARLY_MUSLIM_IDENTITY_THROUGH_EPIGRAPHY_AND_THEORY

    Quote
    Lindstedt
    "The scholarship on early Islam has undergone something of a paradigm shift in recent decades, resulting in a widely shared notion that the emergence Islam did not mean the end of antiquity and the beginning of the medieval period, rather, Islam was a distinctive part of the late antique world of the Near East.The history of the Qurʾān, as well, should be seen in that light."

    That's correct.

    Quote
    Lindstedt "I have suggested in this article that the Arabic-Islamic apocalyptic  writings should be compared with their Christian precursors and contemporaries,especially those written in Syriac. Many of the motifs appearing in Christian apocalypses were taken over by the Muslims, even though the latter did not compose long apocalyptic narratives but, instead, preferred a rather different, and shorter, khabar form.


    Very good insight.

    Quote
    Lindstedt [...] Furthermore,it seems that they shared the same eschatological worldview as the Christians, even if their interpretation was significantly different. "


    That's correct. Muslims elaborations "were taken over by the Muslims", from Christians and not from the Quran which says nothing about that specific topic which allowed Muslim to elaborate from Christianity.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9275 - June 03, 2020, 01:51 PM

    Well  what is there not to be sure about it dear Altara ??  it is a very simple statement that you & me are disagreeing

    you are saying ......There was no literature  nothing written in Arabic before Quran book/manuscripts except inscriptions on rocks and stones......    and you are also  enforcing that  by saying Literature(IN ANY ARABIC DAILECTS OF THAT TIME ) does not exist before the Quran.
     
    And I disagree with that ... it is as simple as that...


    Your disagreement comes by feelings, sentiments, not by scientific evidences. View the Quran as such, you cannot understand how it is possible that there was nothing (as literature) before this text. I perfectly understand that. But there is an explication which allow to understand what I say (that there was nothing before) and that suddenly appears the Quran. There is one.

    Quote
    OK., yes we did not find I agree .,  well let me change few words ..

    instead of "THERE MUST BE"   .. Which I normally use that as slang for gedanken experiment on explorable subjects...
    Would it be Ok if I use the words .." THERE MAY BE"..or ..."THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN.."..??


    Until the moment where one finds something, it is the same.

    Quote
    True there is evidence so far..,  Evidence could have easily been erased  but   I am trying to extract those  missing  Arabic manuscripts  from Quran statements itself...

     

    The Quran never speaks of "Arabic" texts. All texts it mentions are Jews or Christians : Hebrew/Syriac/Latin/Greek texts.

    Quote
    May be It is going to be a failed experiment ..  I am an expert of doing failed experiment
    Well I consider Quran manuscripts are different from the present book Quran.,  Would you differ and    consider  Quran manuscripts and the present book Quran is exactly same and no modifications were done to those early manuscripts??


    Modifications one can see stems mainly from qiraat  except the Sanaa palimpsest. I've already say how (for me...) it is possible: the exemplar of the Sanaa palimpsest was badly damaged. Scribes have attempted to complete the text with the help that the written context could give them to write words which were absent of the exemplar. It seems (to me...) rationale. After they acquired the Utmanic rasm, they have effaced and recopied it to replace what was before.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9276 - June 03, 2020, 02:27 PM

    well this is good response  from Altara to continue to understand the problem
    Your disagreement comes by feelings, sentiments, not by scientific evidences. View the Quran as such, you cannot understand how it is possible that there was nothing (as literature) before this text.

     No..no.. no feelings etal.. I have no feelings  w.r.t books and faiths.  and yeas that is the crust of the problem..

    I do understand s " how a such Arabic text suddenly appears without having  any other/previous literary works in that language  before Quran". And and one can come up with  various explanations.,    Some are complex and some are as simple as burning earlier Arabic literature   that was earlier than Quran/Quran manuscripts.,   as you  know  writing on something was not an easy task at that time .. If some one burns it .. it is done dusted  and dead unlike those Arabic rock inscriptions

    Quote
    I perfectly understand that. But there is an explication which allow to understand what I say (that there was nothing before) and that suddenly appears the Quran. There is one.

     well that is a secret explication and I hope it  will come from you ASAP in a book form

    Quote
    Until the moment where one finds something, it is the same

    yes  that is one way and it does solve the problem
     
    Quote
    The Quran never speaks of "Arabic" texts. All texts it mentions are Jews or Christians : Hebrew/Syriac/Latin/Greek texts.

    ..   there you go., you are giving hint to me how such text as Quran suddenly appeared in 630..650..690.. whatever ... That mean those ArabXXXX  guys who wrote that texts were familiar with  Christian  : Hebrew/Syriac/Latin/Greek texts .. or it is  also possible that there were  Arab Christians, Arab Jews.,  Arab Syrians /  etc..etc.. who were multicultural.. multi-lingual writers...
     
    Quote
    Modifications one can see stems mainly from qiraat  except the Sanaa palimpsest. I've already say how (for me...) it is possible: the exemplar of the Sanaa palimpsest was badly damaged. Scribes have attempted to complete the text with the help that the written context could give them to write words which were absent of the exemplar. It seems (to me...) rationale. After they acquired the Utmanic rasm, they have effaced and recopied it to replace what was before.


    Who developed that Utmanic rasm???  So that guy Uthman ibn Affan.... Is he not son in-law of Prophet of Islam?  or you think that is another Islamic story .. and he was Just an Arab Christian ... or Arab Jew...who grabbed the political power in the name of Islam..

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9277 - June 03, 2020, 03:06 PM

    Quote
    I do understand s " how a such Arabic text suddenly appears without having  any other/previous literary works in that language  before Quran". And and one can come up with  various explanations.,

     

    Of course.

    Quote
    Some are complex and some are as simple as burning earlier Arabic literature that was earlier than Quran/Quran manuscripts.,


    The issue here is that Arabs were fully embedded with Romans in the West (middle of the 5th c.) and Persians (before the 5th c.) in the East and Christianity and Judaism in Yemen (4th c.).
    How can it be that Romans, Persians, Christians, Jews never alludes to an Arab literature if it existed?
    Never. That's my issue here. Like Mecca/Zem zem/Kaba, there is nothing.
    That is why I say what I say. Nothing else.
    Quote
    well that is a secret explication and I hope it  will come from you ASAP in a book form


    A very simple explication.

    Quote
    Who developed that Utmanic rasm???


    The author(s) of the Quran, from the proto Arabic script that one can see in the 512 and 568 Harran Arabic inscriptions that I've (many times) given here.

    Quote
    So that guy Uthman ibn Affan.... Is he not son in-law of Prophet of Islam? 


    One does not have any validation of the existence of both Uthman ibn Affan and  the Prophet of Islam.

    Quote
    or you think that is another Islamic story .. and he was Just an Arab Christian ... or Arab Jew...who grabbed the political power in the name of Islam..


    Ali was amir of Al Hira in the East. Muʿāwiya was the amir of the West. Both were not coming from Zem zem /Kaba and were not "companion/son-in-law /son of an ennemy of the Prophet". Because there was no "Prophet Muhammad" from which stems the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9278 - June 03, 2020, 03:54 PM



    The issue here is that Arabs were fully embedded with Romans in the West (middle of the 5th c.) and Persians (before the 5th c.) in the East and Christianity and Judaism in Yemen (4th c.).
    How can it be that Romans, Persians, Christians, Jews never alludes to an Arab literature if it existed?
    Never. That's my issue here. Like Mecca/Zem zem/Kaba, there is nothing.
    That is why I say what I say. Nothing else.

    that is a very good question to answer ., but Could it not be possible in fact the so-called Quran manuscripts were nothing but Bible stories written by Arab Jewish/ Arab Christian/ Arab Roman  intellectuals of that time.. and may be  they were there before classical Islam / Classical Muhammad   and those Bible story manuscripts that were in Arabic became Quran manuscripts/Quran..  such as   Sanaa palimpsest

    Quote
    A very simple explication.

      it doesn't seem to be that simple otherwise some one would have done it by now..
    Quote
    The author(s) of the Quran, from the proto Arabic script that one can see in the 512 and 568 Harran Arabic inscriptions that I've (many times) given here.

     Well I need to think and read a bit more on that Arabic script development  and its time line 

    Quote
    One does not have any validation of the existence of both Uthman ibn Affan and  the Prophet of Islam.

    Ali was amir of Al Hira in the East. Muʿāwiya was the amir of the West. Both were not coming from Zem zem /Kaba and were not "companion/son-in-law /son of an ennemy of the Prophet". Because there was no "Prophet Muhammad" from which stems the Quran.

    Well that is good point and I fully agree with you

     more reading

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9279 - June 03, 2020, 05:04 PM

    Quote
    but Could it not be possible in fact the so-called Quran manuscripts were nothing but Bible stories written by Arab Jewish/ Arab Christian/ Arab Roman  intellectuals of that time..

     
    It'd attest skilled literati because quranic texts are not (for me...) simple Bible stories.
    Quote
    and they were there before classical Islam and Classical Muhammad   and those Bible story  manuscripts became Quran manuscripts/Quran.. of  Sanaa palimpsest


    But there are not other Arab literature before those quranic texts.

    Quote
    well it doesn't seem to be that simple otherwise some one would have done it by now..


    It is (simple).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9280 - June 04, 2020, 08:54 AM


    1). It'd attest skilled literati because quranic texts are not (for me...) simple Bible stories.

    Well when I said "Simple bible stories" .in Quran . I mean  Quran is filled with  bible stories in a dialogue form..

    And I fully agree with that.,   Clearly the Quran writers have to be  skilled literati   to write a book like that and must be familiar with reading bible texts  in Arabic or other languages ..  And it also goes to many bible books.,  So  we must realize here what you say to Quran  also goes to many bible books    where  we will find plenty of dialogue  between God and the messengers  in those  OT/NT books..

    Quote
    2). But there are not other Arab literature before those quranic texts.

      that is true

    but suppose we ask same question to bible books., what literature do we have/know  between 1st and 5th century apart from bible books that  have dialogues/discourse oriented chit-chat stories in them??

    Off course I have not looked in to that point.. but I think very little or none.   The only difference between bible books and Quran   with reference to  literal /written language is. ..Quran is in Arabic where as OT and NT  books by 5th century we see them in multiple written languages ....Hebrew/Greek/Syriac/Aramaic .. where as Quran  was only in Arabic.. Assuming there was no Arabic script (WHICH I QUESTION)  and  no  bible books in Arabic script are out there....

    We all know writing books was not easy task in those ancient times .. ....In fact it is not easy to write such dialogue books even today...

     Any way your points are very much valid and again I fully agree with you .. Quran writers were  very Smart literati well versed in reading/writing bible  in any one of those languages.((.. .Hebrew/Greek/Syriac/Aramaic.......))and writing it in Arabic

    This gets me to my old point that I often say in posts..

    ... WHAT IS NEW IN QURAN THAT YOU WILL NOT FIND IN BIBLE BOOKS.....??

    that is a good book title.,  I wonder whether  any one wrote such book??

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9281 - June 04, 2020, 09:02 AM

    Hello. Sorry to bother you, but I have 2 questions. Our 2 close friends, Robert Spencer and Jay Smith, have made a video. Around 18.20, Jay says that there is a Palestinian coin from 647 mentioning Muhammed. Do you know anything about that?

    The other question is about the standardization of the Quran. Somewhere in the video, they talk about the Quran evolving after 650. After Marijn van Putten wrote his article about the early standardization of the rasm, do any researchers still believe in  Wansbrough's idea of a later development of the Quran?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2fwD6dVH48
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9282 - June 04, 2020, 10:38 AM

    Well when I said "Simple bible stories" .in Quran . I mean  Quran is filled with  bible stories in a dialogue form..

    And I fully agree with that.,   Clearly the Quran writers have to be  skilled literati   to write a book like that and must be familiar with reading bible texts  in Arabic or other languages ..


    There is no Bible texts in Arabic before the 9thc-10th.c


     
    Quote
    And it also goes to many bible books.,  So  we must realize here what you say to Quran  also goes to many bible books    where  we will find plenty of dialogue  between God and the messengers  in those  OT/NT books..

    "Dialogue form" is not what I was thinking, it is rather a common form for all scribal orient civilization since ages. When I say "skilled literati " It is the way how they address those Biblical stories.

    Quote
    but suppose we ask same question to bible books., what literature do we have/know  between 1st and 5th century apart from bible books that  have dialogues/discourse oriented chit-chat stories in them??


    Many literature.

    Quote
    Off course I have not looked in to that point.. but I think very little or none.   The only difference between bible books and Quran   with reference to  literal /written language is. ..Quran is in Arabic where as OT and NT  books by 5th century we see them in multiple written languages ....Hebrew/Greek/Syriac/Aramaic .. where as Quran  was only in Arabic.. Assuming there was no Arabic script (WHICH I QUESTION)  and  no  bible books in Arabic script are out there....


    There is no Bible texts in Arabic before the 9thc-10th.c

    Quote
    Any way your points are very much valid and again I fully agree with you .. Quran writers were  very Smart literati well versed in reading/writing bible  in any one of those languages.((.. .Hebrew/Greek/Syriac/Aramaic.......))and writing it in Arabic

    That's correct.

    Quote
    This gets me to my old point that I often say in posts..

    ... WHAT IS NEW IN QURAN THAT YOU WILL NOT FIND IN BIBLE BOOKS.....??


    Enough things to make Muslims.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9283 - June 04, 2020, 10:49 AM

    wonderful response from Altara..

    1). There is no Bible texts in Arabic before the 9thc-10th.c

     2). "Dialogue form" is not what I was thinking, it is rather a common form for all scribal orient civilization since ages. When I say "skilled literati " It is the way how they address those Biblical stories.

    3). Many literature.

    4). There is no Bible texts in Arabic before the 9thc-10th.c
     .

    5). Enough things to make Muslims.


     well those 5 points  are great points to discuss .. Altara I am going to question you on them  just time constrains now..

     and I tell you and I KNOW your answers could be directly put in to some of a book chapters.. either yours ..OR...OR .. be careful  Cheesy Cheesy

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9284 - June 04, 2020, 10:58 AM

    Hello. Sorry to bother you, but I have 2 questions. Our 2 close friends, Robert Spencer and Jay Smith, have made a video. Around 18.20, Jay says that there is a Palestinian coin from 647 mentioning Muhammed. Do you know anything about that?

    The other question is about the standardization of the Quran. Somewhere in the video, they talk about the Quran evolving after 650. After Marijn van Putten wrote his article about the early standardization of the rasm, do any researchers still believe in  Wansbrough's idea of a later development of the Quran?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2fwD6dVH48



    You never bother us Asbjoern1958 .

    Whatever one thinks of Spencer, "Did Muhammad exist?" is a must read. It has the merit of gathering in one piece of work the questions all historians should be asking himself regarding the topic. Work that was never done by academic ones. Even the so called "sceptics". Crone, Wansbrough, etc. Whereas it is yet the key point.

    1/ Yes there are Muhammad coins in Syria I think in 647+. But it is not the "Prophet Muhammad" which date from 685.
    2/ Nope, no academic (to my knowledge..) still think of a later development of the Quran. I personally think that the Quran's core if there was some interpolation is more ancient than the middle of the 7th c.
    3/ Spencer states (15') that he thinks that the ancients MS predates Islam.
    4/ Spencer is right (19'50) to point out that what got Theophanes and Sebeos was Muslim material and nothing else. They write what the Muslims say what has happened and this is what will become the Muslim narrative.
    5/ Smith is talking nonsense (29'37), al Kindi never said that the Quran was still compiled at his time.
    6/ John of Damascus has never had the Quran in hand and read it, all the informations he have comes from conversations with his friend in Damascus court. Would he, he would have said the same thing as Al Kindi about the text ; incomprehensible, etc.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9285 - June 04, 2020, 12:27 PM

    well so much to do and read on Altara posts/responses   but on these words
    You never bother us Asbjoern1958 .

    Whatever one thinks of Spencer, "Did Muhammad exist?" is a must read. .................

    let me add this

    Muhammad (SAW) in the Near-Contemporaneous Non-Muslim Sources: An Appraisal of Robert Spencer’s Views  by Ata Ur Rahman
    University of Malakand
     

    Ata Ur Rahman., University of Malakand

    well one shroud read that also apart from Spencer book

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9286 - June 04, 2020, 01:48 PM

    Bad apologetic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9287 - June 04, 2020, 06:19 PM

    Bad apologetic.

    well you will find that in "FAITH HEADS " of every faith that don't use their brain...except in Isla those faith rules from book/s are reinforced in the society ., Any way going to back to the five points your post at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg888063#msg888063  let me take that last point ..point-5

    Quote
      ... WHAT IS NEW IN QURAN THAT YOU WILL NOT FIND IN BIBLE BOOKS.....??


    Enough things to make Muslims.



    enough things/statements to make Muslims?? from where?   you mean?? from other faiths or  other cultures?

    I don't think so ., you know well Muslims are NOT monolithic people that every one follows same rules...  As far as Quran is concerned .. at best I can say only this   

    THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD STATEMENT  .  It repeats here and there and often  put in  to different context in a hand waving manner

    Quote
    47.19)  So know that there is no god but Allah, and, ask protection for your fault and for the believing men and the believing women; and Allah knows the place of your returning and the place of your abiding.

    20. 8 )  Allah-- there is no god but He; His are the very best names.

    3:18) Allah bears witness that there is no god but He, and (so do) the angels and those possessed of knowledge, maintaining His creation with justice; there is no god but He, the Mighty, the Wise.

    16:51) And Allah has said: Take not two gods, He is only one Allah; so of Me alone should you be afraid.


    that is all i can think of.. but I am sure you know that bible  Isaiah 45:5  has similar same statement

    Quote
    I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,


    So dear Altara tell me more on that word "ENOUGH IN QUARN TO MAKE PEOPLE MUSLIMS"...

     I don't think Quran  played  any role  at any time in history of Islam to make people go Islamic., and I can many other things that made people go Islamic way if you think of conversion.,  and  there are certainly attractive benefits for those who convert in to Islam once a state become Islamic over those that have other faiths....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9288 - June 04, 2020, 07:49 PM

    Quote
    enough things/statements to make Muslims?? from where?   you mean?? from other faiths or  other cultures?


    The main thing is quite simple : Jesus is not God and he tells it himself! (5:116) You can take this from many heretical sects of the early Christianity and, of course, from the Jews.

    Quote
    you know well Muslims are NOT monolithic people


    But they all believe that Jesus is not God , do they?
    Quote
    I don't think Quran  played  any role  at any time in history of Islam to make people go Islamic.,


    You're wrong. Some have been "made Muslims" by the Quran. The Arabs who build the mosque in the Temple Mount (637) followed what say the text in 2:125-127.  Was they were Muslim as we know it ? Nope. But they were enough to follow what said the text. And there was no islamic state.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9289 - June 04, 2020, 08:10 PM

    Quote
    You're wrong. Some have been "made Muslims" by the Quran. The Arabs who build the mosque in the Temple Mount (637) followed what say the text in 2:125-127.


    Arabs didnt need the Quran to build the mosque on the Temple Mount. It could have been the oral message coming with the Arab take over.

    2:125-127 is just too hidden to be the source of this building.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9290 - June 04, 2020, 08:20 PM

    Oh Ok..  well my point was different and historical times I was thinking about the conversions are different
    The main thing is quite simple : Jesus is not God and he tells it himself! (5:116) You can take this from many heretical sects of the early Christianity and, of course, from the Jews.

    But they all believe that Jesus is not God , do they?

     
     I did not get the Question as well use of that verse in our discussion on conversion.,

     Anyway well let me put that verse  here..
    Quote
    5: 116.    And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.


    Are  you talking about present Muslims? .. present Christians Or Sects of Christianity before Islam and during very initial periods of Islam  say ..in 550  to 650 AD?? and what is that verse has to do with conversion??

    True No Muslim any time believed/believes  that "Jesus is god or son of god".,   As far as sects of Christianity before Islam is concerned., there were so many., Some might have believed Jesus is God...  I think some sects did believe Jesus God.  And then you have that  Trinity _Business—where their God is three distinct persons who are co eternal, coequal, and indivisibly united in one being,.. whatever.,

    But I don't get it .. what is that has to do with Conversion in to Islam ..say in 8th....9th..10th..11th century ?  That verse and such verses of Quran  might have played a role  at very initial stages of Islam even before the birth of that Muhammad of Islam..
     
    Quote
    You're wrong. Some have been "made Muslims" by the Quran. The Arabs who build the mosque in the Temple Mount (637) followed what say the text in 2:125-127.  Was they were Muslim as we know it ? Nope. But they were enough to follow what said the text. And there was no Islamic state.


    well I was and I am wrong in many times but here ..... you are taking 7th century conversions and I am talking about conversion much later out of Arabian peninsula ...  on top of that  such statements as 5: 116.... are already there in those OT/NT books.. So what is new in Quran that makes people  convert in to Islam??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9291 - June 04, 2020, 08:54 PM

    Yeez and Altara. thanks for your response.

    About the name Muhammad on a Syric coin from 647+. Who was he?

    I once commented on a twitter thread by Ahmed Shaker. I showed to Ilkka Lindstad's work on early inscriptions which concluded that the Muslim identity developed late and that "parting of the ways" happened around the 720s- 730s
    It seems to me that he after that even more tries to prove that this is wrong. He wants to show that Ohlig's claim that Muhammad was a title, is wrong. Instead he thinks it was a real name. He seems to defend the traditional Muslim views. that Muhammad was a person and a real name and that the Muslim identity developed early.
    What do you think? (you should read the whole twitter thread below)

    "..Both Ibn al-Ašʿaṯ and his father Muḥammad (d. 41/661) were important historical figures and are well known from Islamic historical sources. This fact refutes Ohlig’s ludicrous claim that in first century AH sources, especially the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock,
    the word Muḥammad (written MḤMD) is not a personal name but an epithet of Jesus (without any reference to the Islamic Prophet) and should be translated as ‘the praiseworthy one’ or ‘the blessed one’."

    https://twitter.com/shakerr_ahmed/status/1236332476391395329

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9292 - June 04, 2020, 09:07 PM

    Arabs didnt need the Quran to build the mosque on the Temple Mount. It could have been the oral message coming with the Arab take over.

    Coming from the sky?

    Quote
    2:125-127 is just too hidden to be the source of this building.


    For you maybe.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9293 - June 04, 2020, 09:15 PM

    Umberto Eco in Art and Beauty in the Middle Ages discusses dialogue as a very important art form, it was used generically, people expected to interact, or chew on, or digest what was said or painted or danced or sculpted. Art always had an audience who with the artwork together created the experience. It is a modern habit to separate the work from the viewer or reader or listener. Arguably art, like the Koran, does not exist without its reader.

    If the Koran is dialogue based that means exploration of art becomes fundamental to understanding the Koran.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9294 - June 04, 2020, 09:19 PM

    Quote
    on top of that  such statements as 5: 116.... are already there in those OT/NT books..


    Christians have deduced it from (mainly) the Gospel of John which a NT book.

    Quote
    you are taking 7th century conversions and I am talking about conversion much later out of Arabian peninsula ...


    Converted by Arab expansion. Mostly jihad but not only (Indonesia for example).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9295 - June 04, 2020, 09:44 PM

    Yeez and Altara. thanks for your response.

    About the name Muhammad on a Syric coin from 647+. Who was he?


    A Ummayad guy I think. Even if there is no "prophetic" things on it, the knowing of who he is exactly is controversial (Muhammad the prophet/or not)

    Quote
    I once commented on a twitter thread by Ahmed Shaker. I showed to Ilkka Lindstad's work on early inscriptions which concluded that the Muslim identity developed late and that "parting of the ways" happened around the 720s- 730s


    Beginning of the 8th I'd say : 700.
    Quote
    It seems to me that he after that even more tries to prove that this is wrong. He wants to show that Ohlig's claim that Muhammad was a title, is wrong. Instead he thinks it was a real name. He seems to defend the traditional Muslim views. that Muhammad was a person and a real name and that the Muslim identity developed early.
    What do you think? (you should read the whole twitter thread below)


    The word "muhammad" in the Dome inscription is notoriously ambiguous. But not in the Quran.

    Quote
    "..Both Ibn al-Ašʿaṯ and his father Muḥammad (d. 41/661) were important historical figures and are well known from Islamic historical sources. This fact refutes Ohlig’s ludicrous claim that in first century AH sources, especially the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock, the word Muḥammad (written MḤMD) is not a personal name but an epithet of Jesus (without any reference to the Islamic Prophet) and should be translated as ‘the praiseworthy one’ or ‘the blessed one’."


    Notoriously ambiguous, especially for Christians Arabophone.

    Quote
    MVP : For that to work it would obviously have to be المحمد... Jesus "a praiseworthy one" Christ

    Not necessarily. One cannot put the argument of  "correct language" when it deals with certain touchy topics like this.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9296 - June 05, 2020, 10:56 AM

    Quote
    ................... on top of that  such statements as 5: 116.... are already there in those OT/NT books.. So what is new in Quran that makes people  convert in to Islam??...............

    Christians have deduced it from (mainly) the Gospel of John which a NT book.




    that is an interesting point I am under the impression most of such statements on god comes from OT books.,  Altara and other friends .. who are familiar with NT books., I wonder whether you guys could out out some verses from NT books which says ..such as

    Quote
    Deuteronomy 4:35_Unto you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD he is God; there is none else besides him

    Samuel 7:22 _ Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

    Chronicles 17:20_ O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

    well too many faiths .. faith heads and faith books  faith preachers  and too few understand them

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9297 - June 05, 2020, 04:03 PM

    Mark 12:32
    "Right, Teacher," the scribe replied. "You have stated correctly that God is One and there is no other but Him,

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9298 - June 05, 2020, 04:05 PM

    https://www.biblehub.com/mark/12-32.htm

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9299 - June 05, 2020, 04:06 PM

    Has anyone done a concordance of the Koran ?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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