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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9060 - April 08, 2020, 03:46 PM

    Michael Penn's "When Christians met Muslims"was linked on this site (by you?). The chronology of Jacob of Edessa is in there. The document itself seems fragmentary, but Penn reconstructs it somewhat...

     really ?? are you sure about that? 

    is it  The chronology of Jacob of Edessa??  or The Chronicle of Jacob of Edessa??..  let me look in to it..

    No. 1. THE CHRONICLE OF EDESSA.

    De scriptoribus Syris orthodoxis  ..
    Quote
    Chronicle of Edessa (ed. Assemani) by J.S. Assemani

    Topics syriac, syriac christianity, edessa, urfa, history, eastern christianity, syriac chronicles, historiography
    Collection opensource
    The Syriac text of the Chronicle of Edessa, from vol. 1 of Assemani's Bibliotheca Orientalis.

    PS:   I wonder some one did English translation of that??

    http://syri.ac/chronicles
    ( WELL IT TAKES TIME TO SCAN ALL THAT STUFF IN THAT SYRIAC CHRONICLES LINK)

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9061 - April 08, 2020, 05:40 PM

    Yeez and Altara,

    Jacob of Edessa,


    p325 is an older and more complete translation  than Penn's . I dont know how much confidence one can have in the document: 
    http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/63122

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9062 - April 08, 2020, 05:50 PM

    The Chronological Canon Of James Of Edessa by EW Brooks


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9063 - April 08, 2020, 10:40 PM



     Jacob also mentions a slightly different timeline than the official narrative. Everything seems to be a bit earlier. That makes me think of Pourshariati's find that the events in Persia must have been earlier than in tradition. Does anyone know if she addressed Jacob of Edessa's chronology?


    She's not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9064 - April 09, 2020, 07:41 AM

    On the attestation of Mohammed being a Merchant:


    S.Anthony  claims  Jacob of Edessa calls Mohammed a merchant in his chronicle. Possible, i give hereunder an extract of Brooks translation of the Chronicle:



    The square brackets around "for traffic"is interpretation, not a straightforward translation.
    Penn writes it down as "for business". I wonder how sure we can be that not something else was meant?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9065 - April 09, 2020, 12:02 PM

    Quote
    The square brackets around "for traffic"is interpretation, not a straightforward translation.
    Penn writes it down as "for business". I wonder how sure we can be that not something else was meant?


    You're right. Penn completes with the narrative what states Jacob. But the sole name of "Mahomet" indicates that Jacob reports Arabs account since he is not Arab himself. One cannot think otherwise ; how would he be aware of "Muhammad" without Arabs narratives elaboration? He could not. So, what is in square brackets, reflects plausibly what was said to Jacob, i.e., the Muslim narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9066 - April 09, 2020, 12:23 PM

    Altara,

    I think it is significant already that end 7th C Mohammed getting around and being a King was the narrative amongst Arabs, being picked up by Jacob. Because without Jacob, nothing would point at a Mohammed being in the picture end 7th C.

    But the inbetween brackets doesnt say "merchant", that's Penn's and Anthony's interpretation.

    PS: it could be possible too that Jacob was recounting the memory of his own Christian community being invaded by Mohammed...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9067 - April 09, 2020, 02:13 PM

    It is perfectly possible as well that Muhammad was portrayed as a prophet to Jacob. But this one has refused to name him as such because Christianity considers that nothing appears after Jesus. Therefore he has chosen to name it "King" as Muhammad had (according to Muslims narrative...) a leader role.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9068 - April 09, 2020, 03:17 PM

    Reminiscences of icons in the Qur'an

    The article assesses the possibility that icons and other religious pictures may have influenced
    some expressions and ideas found in the Qur’an. It does not discuss the nature or inspiration of
    the Qur’an, but focuses on the visual, artistic dimension of the relations between Christianity
    and the origins of Islam. The article considers what Christian images may have been known
    in the Arabian Peninsula at the time of Muhammad, how they may have been present in the
    pre- and early Islamic milieu, and whether they may in any way be reflected in the qur’anic text.

    https://www.academia.edu/40729795/Reminiscences_of_icons_in_the_Quran
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9069 - April 09, 2020, 04:04 PM

    Gobillot:
    Manger les animaux, une question pour la pensée musulmane/Eating animals, a question for
    Muslim thought

    https://www.academia.edu/42676315/Manger_les_animaux_une_question_pour_la_pens%C3%A9e_musulmane_pp._33-54

    "Gathering and analysing all these data in a limited framework is not possible, so this contribution will be devoted to the point of view that emanates from the Koranic text through a rather unexpected reading, which the combination of several criteria has allowed us to highlight in recent years.(1)

    (1) This is a set of write, and therefore read, rules that constitute a multi-parameter code, including : the absence of synonymy, the use of polysemy - of words, expressions and whole sentences -, the relevance of verbal analogy (based on the different meanings of the same term in the text), non-contradiction at all levels of composition, the rhetorical construction, and finally the very dense references to earlier Scriptures (Bible, Apocrypha, Targums) and to the theological production of late antiquity (Jewish, Christian, Judeo-Christian and Gnostic circles) in all forms, from explicit quotation to the most subtle allusion. These procedures, a good part of which is a transposition to the Koran of results obtained by biblical scholars, are currently recognized as relevant by specialists in Koranic studies, the particularity of our approach being that we never dissociate them by considering that the intended meaning can only correspond to a total concordance of all the information they convey."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9070 - April 09, 2020, 09:57 PM

    Altara,

    I think it is significant already that end 7th C Mohammed getting around and being a King was the narrative amongst Arabs, being picked up by Jacob. Because without Jacob, nothing would point at a Mohammed being in the picture end 7th C.

    But the inbetween brackets doesnt say "merchant", that's Penn's and Anthony's interpretation.

    PS: it could be possible too that Jacob was recounting the memory of his own Christian community being invaded by Mohammed...

    I could give very simple explanation of some story telling guy who may have mentioned that word/name Mahomet"(( Muhammad))  right out of hadith he/she may heard about some character "Muhammad" dear mundi....  for e.g. this hadith
    Quote
    It has been narrated that once a person came to see the Holy Prophet and was so impressed by his personality that he started trembling from nervousness; at this the Prophet said
    Quote
    " Do not be afraid; I am the son of a Quraishi woman who used to eat simple dry meat (Tirmidhi). Have worldly kings bowed low in such humility? If the Holy Prophet had been a king in the ordinary sense, he would have shown the usual arrogance, pride and pompousness of kings."



    as far as word "Mahomet"(Muhammad) mentioned by that Jacob of Edessa  is concerned.,    from its root word it simply mean "Praise worthy person" ., So the point is,  any narrator of  a story on so-called Prophet of Islam to that guy  "Jacob of Edessa" could have used those words., It could have come from any such  hadith  or hadith story tellers

    QUESTION IS ..What this what Jacob wrote has to do with with Islam, Quran and Porphet of Islam??

    WHAT IS THAT HAS TO DO WITH WRITERS OF QURAN?   
    AND WHAT IS THAT HAS TO SO WITH  MECCA/MEDINA?MUHAMMAD? ZAM-ZAM??

    And what else  Jacob of Edissa wrote that you can not find in hadith of that time??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9071 - April 09, 2020, 10:23 PM

    Reminiscences of icons in the Qur'an
    .........................................
    https://www.academia.edu/40729795/Reminiscences_of_icons_in_the_Quran


    that Reminiscences of icons in the Qur'an Islam and Christian–Muslim Relations by  Serafim Seppälä  is interesting begining with questions like

    Quote
    what kind of images existed in Muhammad’s lifetime?

    What subjects were most commonly depicted?

     Where and how might an Arab from the Hijazhave encountered Christian images?

    What kind of pictures, if any, could have been found inMecca or Medina?

    What Christian communities used images and in what way?

     And, most importantly: what particular aspects in the text of the Qur’an could be reasonably interpretedas potential reflections of Christian images?


    But in answering thos questions., he really did not nail the subject on the "presence or Absence of Prophet of Islam in the present  Mecca & Medina"., because he starts with assumption of Narrative stories of Islam are truth  and tries to spin the  publication out of Islamic stories..  Arabain peninsula of that time was filled multi cultural settlements.,  full of Arab Jewish., and Arab Christian folks .

    And in conclusions  that author says

    Quote
    .....................To sum up, the author(s) of the Qur’an may have seen icons in churches or monastic commu-nities outside Mecca; iconic images may also have reached Mecca on textiles, medallions,bottles, chests and such like. In any case, at least stories about icons and their function, aswell as some ideas on the meanings of the subjects depicted in them, must have reached theears of the author of the Qur’an, if not his eyes................


    off course Quran writers must have heard stories of bible .. To write Quran the book .,  one need not see pictures of prophets  or  icons whose   names and stories   are mentioned in Quran..,  Quran Writers could have heard the stories from bible  and put them in their own format ..  But It will be easier if Authors of Qurah/THE ARABIC WRITERS OF THAT TIME  were  already familiar with/read/preach/heard the stories from bible.. and very smart writer/s that were fluent in Arabic language of that time could have easily written those Quran manuscripts..

    anyways it is worth to read that publication

    Quote
    Serafim Seppälä
     University of Eastern Finland,
     Faculty of Philosophy,


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9072 - April 10, 2020, 08:52 AM

    Yeez,

    Quote
    hadith of that time


    Who said there were already hadith going round end 7th C? I would expect them to be of a later date.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9073 - April 10, 2020, 10:33 AM

    Yeez,

    Who said there were already hadith going round end 7th C? I would expect them to be of a later date.


    1). What did  Jacob of Edessa actually wrote on Muhammad  the alleged Prophet of Islam? and when   dear  mundi., 

     Only the name Mohamet and he was some king or a Merchant?

    2).  Did anyone do or try to do that C13 dating on these Non-Islamic sources of Muhammad /Mohamet  to figure out when those sources were actually published??

    Quote
      External References to Islam by Peter Kirby

      Jacob of Edessa (d. 708)    

    [From the book (pp. 161-162):] "The subject matter [of his Canons] is diverse, but a large proportion is taken up with the issue of purity, both in liturgical and social practice. In the social sphere this meant caution in one's dealings with heretics and unbelievers. Thus one should not make altar coverings, priests' garments or drapes from cloth on which is embroidered the Muslim profession of faith (tawdita hagarayta); and one should lock the church doors during a service lest 'Muslims enter and mingle with the believers, and disturb them and laugh at the holy Mysteries.' Jacob does, however, recognise that one must sometimes bow to constraint, and nowhere does he recommend martyrdom. Usually one should not eat with a non-orthodox, but if a Chalcedonian or Muslim governor ordres it, then 'need allows it.' If in dire need a deacon may serve soldiers on campaign, and if compelled by the Arabs, a monk or a priest may participate in battle, though he faces suspension if he kills someone. And Jacob is willing to be lenient in matters that 'do no harm.' Priests may give the blessing of the saints to Muslims or pagans (mhaggraye aw hanpe), and may teach the children of Muslims, Harranians and Jews. They may pardon and give the eucharist to (presumably repentant) apostates in danger of dying, and bury them after their death, if no bishop is in the vicinity."

    We should not rebaptise a Christian who becomes a Muslim or pagan (kristiyana da-mhaggar aw mahnep) then returns, but the prayer of penitents is to be said over him by the bishop and a period of penance enjoined upon him.   (Jacob of Edessa, Replies to John, A13 [pp. 162-163])

    A woman who is married to a Muslim and who says that she will convert to Islam (thaggar) unless she is given the host, should be granted it, but with a penalty that is appropriate for her to receive.   (Jacob of Edessa, Replies to Addai, no. 75 [p. 163])

    [From the book (p. 163):] "These two rulings demonstrate how early apostasy to Islam became a serious issue, a fact vividly illustrated by a contemporary apocalypse which laments that 'many people who were members of the church will deny the true faith of the Christians, along with the holy cross and the awesome Mysteries, without being subjected to any compulsion, lashings or blows.' But though he probably wished to declare to renegades that they would be taken back, Jacob was not advocating a policy of 'anything goes.' Around the first case he drapes a veiled threat, intimating that such apostasy may deprive one of the grace of baptism; and in the latter instance he insists that 'even if there is not fear of her apostatising' some 'rebuke' was necessary 'so that other women fear lest they too stumble.'"

    [From the book, regarding a chrnonicle by Jacob (p. 165):] "All we have regarding Islam are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the Arabians (arbaye), those whom we call Arabs (tayyaye), began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21), and that 'the Arabs began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'"

    Your question is vain . . . for it is not to the south that the Jews pray, nor either do the Muslims (mhaggraye). The Jews who live in Egypt, and also the Muslims there, as I saw with my own eyes and will now set out for you, prayed to the east, and still do, both peoples—the Jews towards Jerusalem and the Muslims towards the Ka'ba. And those Jews who are to the south of Jerusalem pray to the north; and those in the land of Babel, in Hira and in Basra, pray to the west. And also the Muslims who are there pray to the west, towards the Ka'ba; and those who are to the south of the Ka'ba pray to the north, towards that place. So from all this that has been said, it is clear that it is not to the south that the Jews and Muslims here in the regions of Syria pray, but towards Jerusalem or the Ka'ba, the patriarchal places of their races. (Jacob of Edessa, Letter to John the Stylite no. 14, fol. 124a; summarized by Wright, Catalogue, 2.604, and translated by Crone and Cook, Hagarism, 173 n. 30 [pp. 565-566])

    That, therefore, the Messiah is in the flesh of the line of David . . . is professed and considered fundamental by all of them: Jews, Muslims and Christians. . . . To the Jews . . . it is fundamental, although they deny the true Messiah who has indeed come. . . . The Muslims, too, although they do not know nor wish to say that this true Messiah, who came and is acknowledged by the Christians, is God and the son of God, they nevertheless confess firmly that he is the true Messiah who was to come and who was foretold by the prophets; on this they have no dispute with us. . . . They say to all at all times that Jesus son of Mary is in truth the Messiah and they call him the Word of God, as do the holy scriptures. They also add, in their ignorance, that he is the Spirit of God, for they are not able to distinguish between word and spirit, just as they do not assent to call the Messiah God or son of God.   (Jacob of Adessa, Letter to John the Stylite no. 6 [p. 166]) 


    Peter Kirby   wrote that some 7 years ago., and that he took it from Robert G. Hoyland in 1997 book " Seeing Islam as Others Saw It:"., that mean 23 years ago.,  let us see what else people...............THE PROFESSORS & Ph. Ds. from    WESTERN & EASTERN  UNIVERSITIES ........ did for the past 23 years on these Non-Islamic sources of Muhammad.,

    3). did any one publish anything after him more than what he said at that link  on non-Muslim narrative on early Islam?
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9074 - April 11, 2020, 08:45 AM


    well I carefully read through that E. W. Brooks'r    "Chronicle of James of Edessa"  .,  I AM NOT CERTAIN THAT I SHOULD TRUST ANYTHING FROM IT w,r,t early Islam and story of Muhammad..    to start with it says

    II. Chronicle of James of Edessa, translated by E. W. Brooks.

    Quote
    .........................Fragments of this chronicle are preserved in British Museum manuscript Additional 14,685, which according to Wright [the cataloguer of the BM Syriac mss] was written in the 10th or 11th century. The author given as is James Philoponus, or “lover of work”, who is the same as James of Edessa, in Wright’s opinion, because excerpts from the work of James of Edessa are quoted by Michael the Syrian.  The canon-table itself, which begins on folio 10r, is a continuation of the Chronicle of Eusebius of Caesarea; to it a preface is prefixed in which the work of Eusebius is corrected and supplemented......................


    moreover what is in it with reference to Muhammad and Islam in that 80 or so pages booklet??   very very little only these two  statements...

    Quote
    1, on page 323 of E. W. Brooks. review of that British library fragment

    293:   And ..[Ma]homt  goes down for [purposes of traffic] to the country of Palestine and of Arabia and of Phoenice   and of tyre

    2,  on page 326 of E. W. Brooks. review of that British library fragment

      Mahomet became first king of Arabs for 7 years


    I am not sure what kind of true history one could write on Muhammad or early history of Islam  from those two statements of that fragment  with all sorts of imaginations and assumptions assuming  that British library fragment was indeed from 7th century..  More over there are whole lot  of other statements that are unrelated to Islam/Muhammad  with respect to time of history and place of history that  are extracted by Brooks from that fragment in his work..

    for e,g many unrelated statements like

    Quote
    Persians conquered  the whole of Syria and phoenice and Pa[lestine]

    Cyrus made persecution against believers in Alexandria


    So I would say ., that pdf file of Brooks's  work on that British library fragment adds very little history or nothing  to early Islam ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9075 - April 11, 2020, 12:23 PM

    Syriac Sources for  Seventh-Century History by  S. P. BROCK

    that has interesting 7th century Syrian literature link 

    Quote
    In view of the paucity of other sources for this century, so  momentous in the history of the Near East, the Syriac materials  take on a particular importance for both Byzantine and Islamic  historians. While some of these sources, such as Michael's  Chronicle, arc well known to all, others lie as yet unexploited and  ignored.

    The purpose of the present article is to collect together  in convenient form details of all the main Syriac sources available for the seventh century, listing standard editions,  translations and the more important discussions. 1 Fuller  information on authors and secondary literature can readily be  found by reference to the following works:


    A. Baumstark,  Geschichte der syrischen Literatur (Bonn, 1922);
     I. Ortiz de Urbina,  Patrologia Syriaca, 2nd ed. (Rome, 1965);
    C. Moss, Catalogue of  Syriac Printed Books and Related Literature in the British Museum  (London, 1962);
     S. P. Brock, 'Syriac Studies 1960-1970: a  classified bibliography',
    Parole de I'Orient, IV (1973), 393 _ 4 6 5-  For the topographical history ol the area now covered by Iraq,
    J. M. Fiey's Assyrie chretienne, 3 vols. (Beirut, 1965-8), is an  invaluable compendium.


    that is what Dr, Brock writes on that 7th century Syrian literature review 
    ***************************************************************************
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=209947#p209947
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=209945#p209945
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=209942#p209954
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=209943#p209943
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=26445.msg760301#msg760301
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=26445.msg760227#msg760227
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=26445.0
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.6300

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9076 - April 12, 2020, 02:52 PM

    So using this mundi question and responses for it from me
    Yeez,

    Who said there were already hadith going round end 7th C? I would expect them to be of a later date.

    I used       Peter Kirby  Link ., Peter off course wrote all that from  this wonderful 1997 book of  dr. Robert Hoyland ...



    unfortunately I casually scanned through the book but never read in it entirety ., So last night I started reading it carefully.. and so many questions are running through my brain..

    So questions to friends  who are reading/active in this folder., How many of you guys have that book and did you guys read through it?

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9077 - April 15, 2020, 09:23 AM

    Two interesting papers of Sinai about the figure who is staged as a "prophet" whom the prerogatives corresponds to a Late Antique Christian bishop.
    Only the abstract is available for the second one.

    "As scholars have now amply demonstrated, the Qur’anic corpus exhibits firm links
    with a multitude of late antique traditions. Especially Syriac literature, which has
    been mined with renewed vigour over the course of the last decade or so, has turned
    out to be a veritable wellspring of intersecting material that appears far from running
    dry.1 Its relevance is not confined to miscellaneous narratives but extends to Qur’anic
    eschatology, which constitutes the very epicentre of at least parts of the Qur’an"
    https://www.academia.edu/30956035/_The_Unknown_Known_Some_Groundwork_for_Interpreting_the_Medinan_Qur_an_M%C3%A9langes_de_lUniversit%C3%A9_Saint-Joseph_66_2015_2016_47_96

    "The Medinan stratum of the Qurʾān ascribes to Muḥammad a noticeably elevated status
    and a far wider range of functions than the earlier Meccan layer. Although this
    shift may well have responded to, and been facilitated by, historical circumstances,
    it is nonetheless appropriate to inquire whether specific aspects of it might be drawing
    on pre-Qurʾānic precedents. I argue that the Christian episcopate, arguably the
    most widespread type of urban religious leadership in late antiquity, yields a surprising
    number of close overlaps with the Medinan presentation of the function and authority
    of Muḥammad. In tandem with this assessment, however, the article also considers
    important differences between the figure of Muḥammad and that of the Christian
    bishop. The most important such divergence consists in the fact that the Qurʾānic
    Messenger, unlike a Christian bishop, does not owe his authority to ordination by an
    ecclesiastical hierarchy: Muḥammad does not occupy an office that imparts authority
    independently of the person occupying it."
    https://www.academia.edu/36104239/_Mu%E1%B8%A5ammad_as_an_Episcopal_Figure_Arabica_65_2018_1_30
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9078 - April 15, 2020, 07:46 PM

    Yeez,

    Thank you very much for your interesting links. Especially the Kirby link is a good and easy reference for the early sources. Sorry for not engaging sufficiently with your questions. They require high energy input, I hope to catch up on the reading later.

    Altara,

    Very interesting Sinai article. I dont really know if his single author proposal (I know he doesnt say it in so many words) is really supported by the evidence. His figure 3 shows in my opinion the existence of two sources: the Medinan corpus with the Meccan one smacked over it. Sinai explains it as continuity, I dont see that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9079 - April 16, 2020, 02:34 AM

    Interesting paper from Sinai. I will have to read it. I do tend to find Meccan vs Medinan paradigms a bit too theoretical for me, but there may be something there.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9080 - April 16, 2020, 04:57 AM

    1.“Muḥammad as an Episcopal Figure”,  by     Nicolai Sinai .,     Arabica 65 (2018): 1–30.

    2. “The Unknown Known: Some Groundwork for Interpreting the Medinan Qur’an” by Nicolai Sinai ., Mélanges de l'Université Saint-Joseph 66 (2015–2016): 47–96.

    Quote
    ..................Although both the Meccan and the Medinan suras are united in describing Muḥammad as God’s “Messenger” (rasūl ), the Qurānic understanding of his role undergoes a perceptible reconfiguration in the Medinan part of the corpus. In order to grasp this shift, we must briefly consider Muḥammad’s presentation in the Meccan Qurʾān. There, Muḥammad’s function is largely confined to the task of relaying divine warnings. Thus, he is commanded to“admonish” (ḏakkara e.g. Kor 6, 70; 14, 5; 50, 45; 52, 29; 87, 9; and 88, 21) and to “warn” (anḏara e.g. 6, 51; 42, 7; 46, 12; 71, 17; and 74, 2) his audience and to“give glad tidings” (baššara e.g.  Kor 19, 97; 36, 11; 45, 8; and 84, 24) both of the paradisiacal reward that awaits the pious and of the “painful punishment” that is merited by those who fail to heed God’s moral and religious imperatives. .........


    that is NOT true .....Causally scanning through those two pubs ., I can easily say  Nicolai Sinai did not read the Quran in its entirety

    Quote
    Suarh  Al-Imraan,   Verse #144:   And muhammad is no more than an apostle; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.

    Suarh  Al-Ahzaab,  , Verse #40 :  Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

    Suarh  Muhammad,  , Verse #2 : And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.

    Surah  Al-Fath,  Verse #29 : Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.
    Quote
    As-Saff,   Verse #6: And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.



    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9081 - April 16, 2020, 12:22 PM

    So from  Nicolai  pub of that  "“Muḥammad as an Episcopal Figure”"   I copy pasted a paragraph where   Nicolai  uses selective Quran verses to prove his point of  "“Muḥammad as an Episcopal Figure”"
    Quote
    Quote
    “Muḥammad as an Episcopal Figure”,  by     Nicolai Sinai .,     A  rabica 65 (2018): 1–30.

    2. “The Unknown Known: Some Groundwork for Interpreting the Medinan Qur’an” by Nicolai Sinai ., Mélanges de l'Université Saint-Joseph 66 (2015–2016): 47–96.

    Quote
    ..................Although both the Meccan and the Medinan suras are united in describing Muḥammad as God’s “Messenger” (rasūl ), the Qurānic understanding of his role undergoes a perceptible reconfiguration in the Medinan part of the corpus. In order to grasp this shift, we must briefly consider Muḥammad’s presentation in the Meccan Qurʾān. There, Muḥammad’s function is largely confined to the task of relaying divine warnings. Thus, he is commanded to“admonish” (ḏakkara e.g. Kor 6, 70; 14, 5; 50, 45; 52, 29; 87, 9; and 88, 21) and to “warn” (anḏara e.g. 6, 51; 42, 7; 46, 12; 71, 17; and 74, 2) his audience and to“give glad tidings” (baššara e.g.  Kor 19, 97; 36, 11; 45, 8; and 84, 24) both of the paradisiacal reward that awaits the pious and of the “painful punishment” that is merited by those who fail to heed God’s moral and religious imperatives. .........


    yeezevee: that is NOT true .....Causally scanning through those two pubs ., I can easily say  Nicolai Sinai did not read the Quran in its entirety

     
    Well I too used to believe  in that   Quran surahs as Mecca and Medina revelations as one can group these so-called revelation chapters in two groups. So let me put those two groups here  and also  read  those verse   Nicolai   carefully selected in his publication


    And the first group of verse are
    Quote
    (ḏakkara e.g. Kor 6, 70; 14, 5; 50, 45; 52, 29; 87, 9; and 88, 21)

    6: 70.   And leave those who have taken their religion for a play and an idle sport, and whom this world's life has deceived, and remind (them) thereby lest a soul should be given up to destruction for what it has earned; it shall not have besides Allah any guardian nor an intercessor, and if it should seek to give every compensation, it shall not be accepted from it; these are they who shall be given up to destruction for what they earned; they shall have a drink of boiling water and a painful chastisement because they disbelieved.

    14: 5.    And certainly We sent Musa with Our communications, saying: Bring forth your people from utter darkness into light and remind them of the days of Allah; most surely there are signs in this for every patient, grateful one.

    50: 45.   We know best what they say, and you are not one to compel them; therefore remind him by means of the Quran who fears My threat.

    52: 29.   Therefore continue to remind, for by the grace of your Lord, you are not a soothsayer, or a madman.

    87:9.   Therefore do remind, surely reminding does profit.

    88:21.  Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder.


    Quote
    2 group of verse:  to “warn” (anḏara e.g. 6, 51; 42, 7; 46, 12; 71, 17; and 74, 2) his audience

    6: 51.    And warn with it those who fear that they shall be gathered to their Lord-- there is no guardian for them, nor any intercessor besides Him-- that they may guard (against evil).

    42: 7.   And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, that you may warn the mother city and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt; a party shall be in the garden and (another) party in the burning fire.

    46:12.   And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good.

    71: 17. And Allah has made you grow out of the earth as a growth:

    74:2.  Arise and warn,

    Quote
    3 rd group of verse: to“give glad tidings” (baššara e.g.  Kor 19, 97; 36, 11; 45, 8; and 84, 24)

    19: 97.     So We have only made it easy in your tongue that you may give good news thereby to those who guard (against evil) and warn thereby a vehemently contentious people.

    36:11.     You can only warn him who follows the reminder and fears the Beneficent Allah in secret; so announce to him forgiveness and an honorable reward.

    45:8.      Who hears the communications of Allah recited to him, then persists proudly as though he had not heard them; so announce to him a painful punishment.

    84:24.   So announce to them a painful punishment~


    well let me edit a bit and also read those verses properly

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9082 - April 17, 2020, 12:07 AM


    His figure 3 shows in my opinion the existence of two sources: the Medinan corpus with the Meccan one smacked over it. Sinai explains it as continuity, I dont see that.


    I think there is a continuity. A subtle one. But one.  As I consider that all of this is fiction, it changes the perspective you have about the text. One can built and write a fiction whatever one wants; there is no brake, no limit. You have to remember that the text was (never) destined to be read by other people than arabophone people of the 7th c. That we are not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9083 - April 17, 2020, 02:52 AM

    Yeez,

    Thank you very much for your interesting links. Especially the Kirby link is a good and easy reference for the early sources. Sorry for not engaging sufficiently with your questions. They require high energy input, I hope to catch up on the reading later.

    ..................

    well my question was very simple dear mundi ..and that is

    So questions to friends  who are reading/active in this folder., How many of you guys have that book ? and did you guys read through it?


     So do you have that book?  it is just "yes" or "No"  Question

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9084 - April 17, 2020, 03:40 AM


    Quote
    Altara,

    Very interesting Sinai article. I dont really know if his single author proposal (I know he doesnt say it in so many words) is really supported by the evidence. His figure 3 shows in my opinion the existence of two sources: the Medinan corpus with the Meccan one smacked over it. Sinai explains it as continuity, I dont see that.



    No.,  nope... neither of those articles  from Sinai have any useful historical information on early Islam and on Quran/its authors.  and this figure 



    has no value.,  The surah length vs Surah number tells nothing about Quranic author/s  neither one can categorize them on that verse lenegth/sura length  basis whether they come from Meccan or  Medinan , In fact now it is becoming clear & clear the important words in Quran "Muhammad,   Mecca and Medina " are fictional cities  with fictional character added in to Islam probably as late as year   680-690.,   10 years ago I was  under the impression that such analysis might throw some light on the origins and author/s of Quran., That I left looong ago., and then I thought stylometric statistical analysis of Quran could  give such info.. but I realized that is also no use .,

    what all  Sinai  did in those two publications is to repeat what Quran repeats in many verses  along  with surah and verse numbers., In  other words  he gave information and put together that are   repetitive statements/verses which  are present in different surahs .

    for e.g  page 51 of The Unknown Known: Some Groundwork for Interpreting the Medinan Qur’an
    Quote
    (ii) Obedience to the Messenger:

    .............. About twenty verses enjoin the Qur’anic audience to obey “the Messenger,” who is often bracketed together with God in the phrase“God and His / the Messenger” (e.g.,Q. 3:32.132, 4:13.59.69, 5:92 etc.).  That obedience to the Messenger (who is called “Muhammad” inQ. 3:144, 33:40, 47:2,and 48:29) equals obedience to God is explicitly and categorically stated in Q. 4:80. Q. 33:21 even calls the Messenger an “exemplar” (uswa) to the Believers, implying that they are not only to obey but also to emulate him. While the Qur’an does not explain whether and how obedience to, and emulation of, the Messenger continues to be obligatory after his future demise (envisaged in Q. 3:144), the foregoing passages do anticipate the notion of a normative practice of Muhammad, which was of course an important factor in the post-Qur’anic emergence of the hadith canon.....................


    .and here on Page 70 of  The Unknown Known: Some Groundwork for Interpreting the Medinan Qur’an

    Quote
    .............The Medinan boost in Muhammad’s status goes beyond specific political and nor-mative tasks and prerogatives. Particularly noteworthy is the fact that the Messenger is cast as a “prophet” (nabiyy), a title that non-Medinan texts tend to reserve for figures of Biblical history.   Use of the title “prophet” is most frequent in sura 33,    which contains a number of other bold statements as well: the Messenger is portrayed as a quasi-paternal figure to the Believers (33:6),

      it is implied that he is superior in rank to other prophets like Moses and Jesus (33:7), and he is called by the enig-matic title “seal of the prophets” (33:40). Medinan texts closely link the Messenger with God by calling not only for obedience to “God and His Messenger” but also by demanding “belief in God and His Messenger” (Q. 49:15, 57:7.19.28, 64: 8 ), as opposed to “belief in God and the Last Day”. Such bracketing induces what David Marshall has described as a “godward movement of the Messenger”. Q 9:128 goes so far as to ascribe to the Messenger two attributes (kindness and mercy) that are otherwise reserved for God and thus implies the Messenger’s “participation in divine characteristics”
    .................


    All those Quran verses are repetitive  and have same/ similar meaning/ political ideology for the followers of the faith ., In fact it   could have directly come from . ,,

    Quote
    Acts 3:23-25

    23 Anyone who does not obey that prophet shall be separated from God's people and destroyed.’ 24 And all the prophets who had a message, including Samuel and those who came after him, also announced what has been happening these days. 25 The promises of God through his prophets are for you, and you share in the covenant which God made with your ancestors. As he said to Abraham, ‘Through your descendants I will bless all the people on earth.’


    the only difference between that  OT verse  and many of  such  verses in  Quran is.,  it gets repeated in different verses in different surahs in slightly different fashion.,   mundi I gave up on such analysis of Quran.. and waiting for Altara song/Altara book..

    Where is Muhammad?
     Where is Mecca?
     Where is Medina ?
    Read  Quran
    it is all zam zam water .
    ,
     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

      One must realize here that Islam all the way from 8th century  or so to today DID NOT COME FROM QURAN.. .. it came from hadith,  it came from preachers/warriors and its faith rules  gets  enforced  onto the  believers of the god .. allah ((whatever you call)) by those who converted in to Islam  .., So it is the  converts that enforces its rules.   and It is very little to do with original Quran manuscripts which are nothing but songs and sonnets  ....praising allah/god and praising believers and chiding those who do not believe in  God

    well our Altara is trying to hide  lot of info and  and   leaking words here and there  in his posts .. for.. e.g here
    I think there is a continuity. A subtle one. But one.  As I consider that all of this is fiction, it changes the perspective you have about the text. One can built and write a fiction whatever one wants; there is no brake, no limit.  You have to remember that the text was (never) destined to be read by other people than arabophone people of the 7th c. That we are not.

     that word  "never"  is important one in his post .. And also I agree with his statement ..and  I think almost 90% or more of the  so far  published papers on the Origins of Quran & Prophet of Islam are nothing but Fictional imaginative stories of individuals who essentially took  Islamist narration of Prophet of Islam and wrote their own stories

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9085 - April 17, 2020, 06:06 AM

    Altara,

    Quote
    I think there is a continuity. A subtle one. But one.  As I consider that all of this is fiction, it changes the perspective you have about the text. One can built and write a fiction whatever one wants; there is no brake, no limit. You have to remember that the text was (never) destined to be read by other people than arabophone people of the 7th c. That we are not.


    There must have been an editing at some time. That could give the continuity. What Sinai is implying is that one author evolved gradually from short verse style to long verse style. I dont see that in the evidence (and the chart yeez presented).

    Yeez,

    Well I'm still in the faze where I hope the stylometric features will reveal stuff... You dont think Sinai is right in his discernment of 2 different sourced verses? Sinai doesn't pronounce an opinion on wether it is Mecca and Medina...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9086 - April 17, 2020, 10:39 AM

    Quote
    There must have been an editing at some time.That could give the continuity .


    There are multiple ways of writing something.

    Quote
    What Sinai is implying is that one author evolved gradually from short verse style to long verse style. I dont see that in the evidence (and the chart yeez presented)


    (For me) this topic is not important.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9087 - April 17, 2020, 12:48 PM

     LIVING ON THE EDGE: THE ROMAN EMPIRE IN THE NORTH MESOPOTAMIAN STEPPE
    https://www.academia.edu/36449753/De_Jong_L._and_Palermo_R._2018_Living_on_the_Edge_the_Roman_Empire_in_the_North_Mesopotamian_Steppe_in_The_Archaeology_of_Imperial_Landscapes._A_Comparative_Study_of_Empires_in_the_Ancient_Near_East_and_Mediterranean_World_eds._B.S._D%C3%BCring_and_T.D._Stek_Cambridge_Cambridge_University_Press

    When looking at the material record of North Mesopotamia in the first centu-ries CE, one would not immediately recognize Roman presence. The villages and towns in the steppe lands of southeastern Turkey, northern Iraq, and east-ern Syria displayed little sign of the processes that often accompanied Roman conquest, or at least in the standard view of Roman impact. Missing are por-traits of Roman emperors and their triumphal victory monuments or new colonial foundations. Its larger centers never boasted the colonnaded avenues, bathing complexes, theaters, and other forms of public architecture that for many scholars made cities of this era so distinctive. Where this type of evidence exists, it comes from towns that held Roman garrisons, such as Dura Europos on the Syrian Euphrates. Indigenous elites in North Mesopotamia did not display their social position through honorific sculpture, funerary architecture, or public epigraphy, as did their peers in western Syria. Ceramic, glass, and coin finds suggest that people in the steppe were only minimally included in the long- distance networks that crossed the Roman world. In fact, if it were not for literary sources describing Roman expansion and the archaeological remains of military camps, we would perhaps not have spoken about North Mesopotamia as part of the Roman Empire.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9088 - April 17, 2020, 02:31 PM

    Demythologizing the Qur’an Rethinking Revelation Through Naskh al-Qur’an  by  Roslan Abdul-Rahim  from..Universiti Sultan Azlan Shah

    Quote
    This article posits two important claims. One is that naskh al-Qur’an is a real and actual phenomenon. Early sources from the Muslim classical era have been cited to justify this claim. The other is that, the notion and theory of naskh al-Qur’an allow for our rethinking of revelation in Islam. The theoretical discourse of Naskh al-Qur’an hinges on the basic idea and principle of the legal annulment of the law contained in or implied by a particular Qur’anic verse that has since been declared as abrogated. While the Qur’anic theory of abrogation may be about the law, in essence, it is as much about the meanings and dynamics of revelation in Islam. ....

    Roslan Abdul-Rahim
    Pusat Bahasa dan Pengajian Asasi,
     Universiti Sultan Azlan Shah
    Kuala Kangsar, Perak, Malaysia


    well  he writes that and more and at the end he says...It proposes a paradigm shift in the way we look at the Qur’an and the way we understand revelation in Islam......

     well I am not sure you are Demythologizing the Qur’an., IN FACT  IT APPEARS YOU ARE ACTUALLY METHOLOGIZING QURAN  and  let me read through it to see that paradigm shift...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9089 - April 22, 2020, 10:15 AM

    Dr. Juan Cole, "The Abode of Peace: The Prophet, the Qur'an, and Turning the Other Cheek"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNvg6xtKri8

    that is an interesting lecture   Dr. Juan R.I. Cole presented a talk at Georgetown University's Alwaleed Bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding on the history of the early Muslims and the Prophet Muhammad.  ..  presented  In late November of 2018,

    as usual  with all his academic background on origins of faiths Juan  Cole  did not understood origins of Islam ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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