Statement 1: Just my summary of what I read in Van Bladel's review. But that would correspond a bit with how the Islamic tradition portrays itself.
Statement 2: And what I read in archeology reports doesn't match that model.
you add very good discussion pointers to your posts but the problem is they have very little or NO DETAILS
of what you are saying dear mundi.., for .e.g Statement 1:
Kevin Bladel' made NO CONTRIBUTION and did not explain clearly what he is trying to say., except using ONE VERSE OF QURAN.. and that is (Q 8:41)
., please go to this post
to read again what he is saying .. There I took his ECONOMIC LOOT BOOTY MODEL in its entirety and made in to three parts.. Now the first part..
well as mundi mentioned an economic model of Kevin
in reviewing that book., So I must carefully read this "LOOT BOOTY" economic model of Islam that Kevin added in his review., Let me separate that part of his review from rest of it to read it carefully
...........When a historian explains social events to me through the factor of ideology, I still want to follow the money. Ideological organization is one of several effective means of imperialism, but apocalyptic warfare cannot sustain decades of enthusiasm without victories and God-given cash. It is not cynical to acknowledge that the religiously tinged fervor for annual raids and territorial conquest was sustained by sensational material revenues based on plunder (fayʾ) for God. What is missing from this book's profound account of the apocalypticism of this empire of conquest is the worldly elation of men who emigrated from arid lands to subjugate richer nations, when God “opened” the land to them, and found themselves hauling off vast quantities of treasure, livestock, and innumerable human captives enslaved for labor and sex. For several generations, the fighting men continued to demand their customary share of four fifths of all the booty they took, which they understood to have been guaranteed to them by Go, who wanted only one fifth for Himself (Q 8:41). That portion was forwarded to the caliph, who was expected to redistribute it to the needy . Caliphs who found ways to extract more than that share were deemed impious by the fighting men whose personal allotments were thereby lessened. The growing mismatch between the financial exigencies of Umayyad government, on the one hand, and Muslim warriors’ demands for customary shares of the righteous spoils of the End Time, on the other, appears also to have been a struggle between the needs and desires of the caliphs to govern as monarchs, as decades passed and the Hour had still not yet come, and the material rewards for militancy that had been prescribed during the earliest years of conquest, when the fight was still vividly apocalyptic for many of the participants. ..........
He has written all that stuff JUST WITH ONE VERSE.. Question is about the timing of that verse
1). When it entered in to Quran manuscripts .. what date ? what year ?
2). Did alleged Prophet of Islam really say those words??
Now., Assume Prophet of Muhammad was real .. Allah/god really revealed that verse and whole surah-8 in Medina and Everything in Islamic conquest started with that from that year and that is because that whole surah-8 was allegedly reveled when Prophet of Islam was in Medina .. Now when we look at Prophet's life time
from classical Islamic stories this is what we have during that time..
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph
In other words year 622 he entered in to Medina and in the year 632 he died in Medina ? Mecca?.. wherever.. that is the story you have .,
We must realize here that Quranic manuscripts might have been present during Prophet't time BUT THIS PRESENT BOOK QURAN WAS NOT THERE., NEITHER THE STUPID VOLUMES AND VOLUMES OF HADITH were there in the year 632., The another question one must ask here is 1) What conquests, what towns, what countries and in what killing did Prophet of Islam " The QURANIC Muhammad" participated ??
.. and what archaeology proof do we have before Prophet Islam conquered those cities or and what happened to those towns/cities archaeological monuments after Prophet of Islam conquered?
Again we are talking about QURANIC MUHAMMAD ((NOT MUHAMMAD OF STUPID SILLY HADITH ))
., you give me the answer to that because you are good in that Archaeology of early Islamic period
So the point is ., There is no point of talking about archaeology that is coupled to early Islamic expansion during the life time of QURANIC MUHAMMAD.,
YES ROGUES THAT CONVERTED AND JOINED ISLAM AT LATER TIMES say 8, 9 10th.. centuries and further down did destroy Archaeological proof of earlier cultures., but that is NOTHING TO DO WITH QURANIC MUHAMMAD... who was a good man . On whose name ROGUES OF ISLAM WHO CONVERTED IN TO ISLAM used that loot booty economic model to expand their Islam ., and that is not the Islam of Quranic manuscripts., Let me say this again we must differentiate between Quranic manuscripts and the THE PRESENT BOOK QURAN from Egyptian Muslim morons of 18th century
Well we can discuss further on that but that is enough for now.. because there is lot more in that surah-8th than just that verse Kevin picked up to initiate his "Loot booty economic model of Islamic expansion"
., In fact Kevin is right to say that when you move-up in time say 8th, 9th, 10th or further up in timeline but that is NOT true during the time of those QURANIC MANUSCRIPTS
with best wishes