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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9000 - March 27, 2020, 03:56 PM

    Hello  A Muslim .........oh my goodness gracious ..  that is a looong post &  I will take some time to read and digest it .,  But but also.,     Looong time no see dear ABCZ Muslim..??,  and  I am very glad to read you again.,

    So I said this to you some four years ago.. do you remember  that you & me   had quite a bit of chit here dear A Muslim?.
    Hello  A Muslim .........oh my goodness gracious ..  that is a looong post &  I will take some time to read and digest it .,  But but also.,     Looong time no see dear ABCZ Muslim..??,  and  I am very glad to read you again.,

    So I said this to you some four years ago.. do you remember  that you & me   had quite a bit of chit here dear A Muslim?., And I am so glad to see you again., Hope your near & dear are safe from this dreaded infection....

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    , And I am so glad to see you again., Hope your near & dear are safe from this dreaded infection....

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Yes! I definitely remember you. Forgive me for the stupid nonsense that I used to say back then! I was blinded by my religion at the time. Great to see that you are still here doing well!

    Best wishes,
    Not A Muslim Cheesy

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9001 - March 28, 2020, 01:29 AM

    ................................

    Yes! I definitely remember you. Forgive me for the stupid nonsense that I used to say back then! I was blinded by my religion at the time. Great to see that you are still here doing well!

    Best wishes,
    Not A Muslim Cheesy

    No..No..Noooooooooo.,   there is NOTHING TO FORGIVE & WHAT YOU WROTE WAS NOT NONSENSE dear A Muslim .,  Religion.. irrespective of the religion as an individual faith is not a bad thing dear A Muslim..   TRUE QURAN IS NOT WORD OF GOD .. for that matter,  no religious book/sayings are words of god.,  but Quran does have some good sayings ., and it is also true for other faiths.,  As a placebo  for living life with a super natural thingy looking after human welfare and human criminal activities in their own brain within the realms of their imaginary world is not bad thing for those who need faith to live life

    And more over you were very polite in all of your posts .. So if some one Muslim or otherwise need faith they should follow it on the basis of certain verses from Quran ., there is nothing wrong with it.,   Any saying/verses from any religious book that is with in GOLDEN RULE PERIMETER can easily be accommodated in to his/her life style ..

    Anyway let me take your earlier  post https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg887414#msg887414  that deals with Quran verses paragraph by paragraph and argue with you where you  are wrong with reference to  some of your assumptions

    .................evidences that show Muhammad frequented with Christians

    ........................... and Jews (this includes Muhammad listening .....................

    ................... This story was well known to the Arabian Jews of Muhammad's time. .................................

    So on that word "Muhammad listening "....., true we have plenty of stories in hadith which were written way after publishing those historical early Quran manuscripts., But Authenticity of Quranic Muhammad  is a questionable history dear A Muslim...  please go through this folder.. The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...  and focus on this post https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16018.msg886980#msg886980   in that folder and and we will discuss further on your post

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9002 - March 29, 2020, 10:40 AM

    So continuing responding to A Muslim  Quranic post ., He uses few Quran verses here and they there and tons of Tafsir stories on those verses from different guys to prove QURAN IS NOT WORD OF GOD.. whatever that god may be..., So I argue with him though the end conclusion is right but the path  he took  in trying to prove  " Quran is NOT word of god is not right"
    Quote
    Quote
    Brief introduction to why we should doubt the claim that the Qur’ān is of divine origins — ........... and evidences of plagiarism..........
    Quote

     
    Quote
    In Asbab al-Nuzul, in the tafsīr of Surah al-Al-Baqarah, ayāh 98, ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab is a witness to seeing Muhammad............................
     
    Link: https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=98&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2


     
    Quote
    in Asbab al-Nuzul, the tafsīr of Surah an-Nahl, ayāh 103, we find another piece of evidence that links the above-mentioned, ‘........................
     
    Link: https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=16&tAyahNo=103&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

     
    In Surah al-Ma’idah, ayāh 30-35, there is a story connected with Cain and Abel. It is in the 31’st ayāh, that it is related that after Cain had killed his brother:
     
    Link (page 33): https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WLOi9vWEzTEC&printsec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=Raven&f=false


    Quote
    To highlight other similarities with this:
     
    In Surah al-Anbīya’, ayāh 57, (with Abraham speaking):
    Quote
    ‘’And [I swear] by Allah, I will surely PLAN AGAINST YOUR IDOLS after you have TURNED AND GONE AWAY”. In the Midrash Rabbah, it says: “Terah was a manufacturer of IDOLS. He ONCE WENT AWAY somewhere and left Abraham to sell them in his place”. In the next ayāh, 58, it says: “So he made them (idols) INTO FRAGMENTS, EXCEPT A LARGE ONE AMONG THEM, that they might return to it [and question]”. Again, in the Midrash Rabbah, it says: “So he took a stick, BROKE THEM, and put the stick IN THE HAND OF THE LARGEST”.

     
    Link to the tafsīr of Ibn Abbas: https://quranx.com/tafsirs/21.52 and: https://quranx.com/tafsirs/2.258

    Quote
    ...................... In Surah An-Naml, ayāh 44, (when she arrived at the palace of the King): ‘
    Quote
    ’She was told, "Enter the palace." But when she saw it, she thought it was a body of water and uncovered her shins [to wade through]. He said, "Indeed, it is a palace [whose floor is] made smooth with glass." She said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, and I submit with Solomon to Allah, Lord of the worlds."

    .........

    Quote
    The story of God holding a mountain over the Israelites, in order to frighten them. In Surah al-A’raf, ayāh 171, it says:
    Quote
    “And [mention] when We raised the mountain above them as if it was a dark cloud and they were certain that it would fall upon them, [and Allāh said], "Take what We have given you with determination and remember what is in it that you might fear Allāh.”


     
    Quote
    1. Allāh is trying to establish fear.
    2. He does this through the use of the mountain and;
    3. Reminds the Israelites about the Law, by saying to, “take what We have given you”.
     
    In the Jewish tract called the Abodah Sarah (a tract where the Jewish commentators turned this into a fanciful story of God holding the mountain over the people), we read that God "inverted THE HOLY MOUNTAIN ABOVE THEM like a pot, and said unto them, 'if YE RECEIVE THE LAW, well; but if not, THERE WILL YOUR GRAVE BE.'"
     
    The tafsīr of this ayāh: http://www.alim.org/library/quran/AlQuran-tafsir/TIK/7/171


    Quote
    In Surah al-Hijr, through ayāh 16-18, it states that the devils plot to hear what is being said in heaven, and are then driven away by shooting stars (which are cast at them by the angels). The ayāt: “And We have placed within the heaven great stars and have beautified it for the observers. And We have protected it (heaven) from every devil expelled [from the mercy of Allah] except one who steals a hearing and is pursued by a clear burning flame (the shooting star)”.

     
    Quote
    Many try and claim that Ibn Kathīr did not take a literal view concerning the shooting stars being thrown at the devils, but this is a false position to hold. Ibn Kathīr himself confirms that he takes a literal view, in his tafsīr, by saying: “Here, Mujahid and Qatadah said that Buruj big stars refers to the heavenly bodies. (I SAY): This is like the Ayah: (Blessed be He Who has placed the big stars in the heavens.) 25:61 `Atiyah Al-`Awfi said: "Buruj here refers to sentinel fortresses.'' He made the "shooting stars'' to guard it against the evil devils who try to listen to information conveyed at the highest heights. If any devil breaches it and advances hoping to listen, a clear "shooting star'' comes to him and destroys him. He may already have passed on whatever he heard before the fire hit him, to another devil below him; the latter will then take it to his friends among humans, as is stated in the Sahih.

     
    Quote
    Explaining this Ayah, Al-Bukhari reported from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said:..................... Another similar verse is found in Surah al-Mulk, ayāh 5.
     
    These verses are simply a reconstruction of a Jewish fable preserved in the tractate of the Chagigah 16a, where it is says that: The demons "listen from behind a curtain" (shom’in me ‘ahoray ha- pargod), and; that they then whisper a combination of “true and false prophecies to the kahana” (soothsayers/fortune tellers)

     
    Quote

     
    Quote
    In Surah Maryam, ayāh 29-30 we find the fable which mentions Jesus and Mary, where Jesus speaks whilst in the cradle. In the 29’th ayāh, it says: “So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we SPEAK to one who is in the CRADLE a child?". Then in the next ayāh, 30, it says: “[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet”. In, “The Arabic Gospel of the Infancy of the Saviour”, an apocryphal text that was produced as early as the 6’th century (some historians claim that the text comes from the 5’th century), on page 405, it says: “He has said that JESUS SPOKE, and, indeed, when He was lying in His CRADLE said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world”.
     
    The reasons to why this story is deemed to be historically unreliable: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/why-shouldnt-we-trust-the-non-canonical-arabic-gospel-of-the-infancy-of-the-savior/


    Quote
    In Surah Ali ‘Imran, we find the fable of Jesus giving life to birds that are made out of clay. In the 49’th ayāh of this Surah, it says: “And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers”. This story is also repeated in Surah al-Ma’idah, ayāh 110, where it mentions: “... ...............................
    Link (page 58): https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/319098485-lost-scriptures-books-that-did-not-make-it-into-the-new-testament-bart-d-ehrman-pdf.pdf


     
    Quote
    In Surah Maryam, we find the fable of Mary being in a, “remote place”, where she is then led to go to a, “palm tree” (for support), because of the pain of bearing Jesus in the heat of the desert. This also resulted in her to feel hungry and thirsty because of the journey. In the 22’nd ayāh, it says: “So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him TO A REMOTE PLACE”, and in the 23’rd ayāh, “And THE PAINS OF CHILD BIRTH DROVE HER TO THE TRUNK OF A PALM TREE and was in oblivion, forgotten”, and in the 24’th ayah, “But he (Jesus) CALLED HER FROM BELOW HER, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided BENEATH YOU A STREAM”, and in the 25’th ayah, “And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; IT WILL DROP UPON YOU RIPE, FRESH DATES”. In the, “Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew”, it says: “... their JOURNEY, while they were walking”, and, “Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it FULL OF FRUIT”, but then Mary also says, “ ..................

    Some other similarities between this fable and the ayāt found in Surah al-Kahf include the instance of when Allāh mentions in the 19’th ayāh of the Surah: “... So SEND ONE OF YOU with THIS SILVER COIN of yours TO THE CITY and let him look to which is the BEST OF FOOD and bring you provision from it and LET HIM BE CAUTIOUS”. This is similar to when the source of the Christian fable says, “

    ...................”, and the 13’th ayāh, where it says: “It is We who relate to you, [O Muhammad], their story in truth. Indeed, they were youths who BELIEVED IN THEIR LORD, and WE INCREASED THEM IN GUIDANCE”. Hence, they are believers in God, and prayed to God so that he can strengthen them and correct their affairs. In the Christian fable, these ayāt are mirrored when it says: “In the cave THEY PRAY TO GOD and GOD RAISES UP THEIR SPIRITS into heaven and sends a watcher to guard their bodies”.
     
    Link (pages 14-15): http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/symposiums/13th/papers/Horst.pdf

     
    Quote
    Interestingly enough, Ibn Kathir also says that he knows of an opinion that some used to hold that, '' (...that they may grow more in faith along with their (present) faith.) (48:4) There are other Ayat indicating the same thing. It has been mentioned that THEY WERE FOLLOWERS OF THE RELIGION OF AL-MASIH `ISA, `ISA BIN MARYAM, but Allah knows best''.
     
    Link to his tafsir on Surah al-Kahf, ayah 17: http://www.recitequran.com/en/tafsir/en.ibn-kathir/18:17

     
    As there are very clear similarities, if you want to argue that the Qur’ān is a, ‘furqān’ (the criterion of what is correct, and in this case the accuracies of the stories found in the Qur’an which are supposedly to be of divine origins) as Surah al-Furqān, ayah 1 says: ‘’Blessed is He who sent down the Criterion upon His Servant that he may be to the worlds a warner –‘’, then you need to prove that these Jewish and Christian fables and legends, those of which have been rejected by the majority of religious (Jewish and Christian) scholarship (and also non-religious secular scholarship), that these stories are indeed accurate and not mere fables and legends. ..................
    So is the Qur’ān really the, ‘’Muhaymin’’ as it claims to be?


    my goodness gracious ., A Muslims wrote a large amount of text to prove Quran is NOT WORD OF GOD but book of its time and it is filled with plagiarized stories  of OT & NT., And A MUSLIM IS RIGHT IN SAYING THAT ., My problem is not that but my problem he is NOT reading Quran properly  to come to that conclusion ..And,, and I am saying it is wrong to read beautiful poetic Quran that way.,   one verse here .. one verse there  and and worse is reading stories /tafsir from some fools  who  wrote their own stories on   Quran verses is NOT a right thing to do.,

    So I am going read Quran properly to him   Cheesy Cheesy   that is my goal in responding to his large text ., because people do not read these large text posts although the post has very relevant points with authentic references...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9003 - March 29, 2020, 12:15 PM

    So  A Muslim in his  Quranic post ., He uses the following Quran verse
    Brief introduction to why we should doubt the claim that the Qur’ān is of divine origins — ........... and evidences of plagiarism..........
    Surah al-Muddaththir, ayāh 25.................
    Surah al-Al-Baqarah, ayāh 98................
    Surah an-Nahl, ayāh 103.................
    Surah al-Anbīya’, ayāh 57...........
    Surah An-Naml, ayāh 44,.....................
     Surah al-A’raf, ayāh 171,.....................
     Surah al-Hijr, through ayāh 16-18,......................
     Surah 25:61................
     Surah al-Mulk, ayāh 5 ................
    in Surah Maryam, ayāh 29-30 ......................
     29’th ayāh,....
     next ayāh, 30......................
     Ali ‘Imran,  49’th ayāh ..............
     Surah Maryam,...................
    23’rd ayāh,..............................
    24’th ayah.....................
    25’th ayah, .....................
    13’th ayāh,......................
     (48:4).......................
     Surah al-Kahf, ayah 17.............................
    Surah al-Furqān, ayah 1.....................

     So those are the verses A Muslim took along with some tafsir stories from fools...
     
    A Muslim that post of your's  on Quran is a HORROR post .. finmad
    It gave me nightmares .. you are NOT EVEN READING QURAN VERSES  but slapped an allegation "that Quran is a silly book filled  with plagiarized stories"  finmad 

    bad.... very bad dear A Muslim... let me read you those beautiful verses

    Quote
    Surah al-Muddaththir, ayāh 25:    This is naught but the word of a mortal.

    Surah al-Al-Baqarah, ayāh 98:   Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

    Surah an-Nahl, ayāh 103:     And certainly We know that they say: Only a mortal teaches him. The tongue of him whom they reproach is barbarous, and this is clear Arabic tongue..

    Surah al-Anbīya’, ayāh 57:     And, by Allah! I will certainly do something against your idols after you go away, turning back.

    Surah An-Naml, ayāh 44:    It was said to her: Enter the palace; but when she saw it she deemed it to be a great expanse of water, and bared her legs. He said: Surely it is a palace made smooth with glass. She said: My Lord! surely I have been unjust to myself, and I submit with Sulaiman to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

      Surah al-A’raf, ayāh 171: And when We shook the mountain over them as if it were a covering overhead, and they thought that it was going to fall down upon them: Take hold of what We have given you with firmness, and be mindful of what is in it, so that you may guard

       Surah al-Hijr, through ayāh 16-18:

      16: And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders.

      17: And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan,

      18: But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.

      Surah 25:61: Blessed is He Who made the constellations in the heavens and made therein a lamp and a shining moon.

      Surah al-Mulk, ayāh 5:  And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

    Surah Maryam,

      29’th ayāh:   But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?

      next ayāh, 30: He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;

      Ali ‘Imran,  49’th ayāh: And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.

    Surah Maryam,..........

    23’rd ayāh: And the throes   compelled her to betake herself to the trunk of a palm tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten!['i]

    24’th ayah: Then  called out to her from beneath her: Grieve not, surely your Lord has made a stream to flow beneath you;

    25’th ayah: And shake towards you the trunk of the palmtree, it will drop on you fresh ripe dates:

    surah18: 13’th ayāh:  We relate to you their story with the truth; surely they were youths who believed in their Lord and We increased them in guidance.

      48:4: He it is Who sent down tranquillity into the hearts of the believers that they might have more of faith added to their faith-- and Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is Knowing, Wise--
    .
      Surah al-Kahf, ayah 17: And you might see the sun when it rose, decline from their cave towards the right hand, and when it set, leave them behind on the left while they were in a wide space thereof. This is of the signs of Allah; whomsoever Allah guides, he is the rightly guided one, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him any friend to lead (him) aright.

    Surah al-Furqān, ayah 1: Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan upon His servant that he may be a warner to the nations

    Ohffff ... You are killing me dear A Muslim., you are killing me  .......     but hey., we have Corona holy days ., thanks to Allah.. so let me read  you  Quran  Cheesy Cheesy 

    PS well for  reading Quran .,   we will move from this folder to other folder., as this folder specifically dealing with publications about Quran from Academic faculties  that work in universities  from west..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9004 - March 29, 2020, 08:41 PM

    No..No..Noooooooooo.,   there is NOTHING TO FORGIVE & WHAT YOU WROTE WAS NOT NONSENSE dear A Muslim .,  Religion.. irrespective of the religion as an individual faith is not a bad thing dear A Muslim..   TRUE QURAN IS NOT WORD OF GOD .. for that matter,  no religious book/sayings are words of god.,  but Quran does have some good sayings ., and it is also true for other faiths.,  As a placebo  for living life with a super natural thingy looking after human welfare and human criminal activities in their own brain within the realms of their imaginary world is not bad thing for those who need faith to live life


    And more over you were very polite in all of your posts .. So if some one Muslim or otherwise need faith they should follow it on the basis of certain verses from Quran ., there is nothing wrong with it.,   Any saying/verses from any religious book that is with in GOLDEN RULE PERIMETER can easily be accommodated in to his/her life style ..

    Anyway let me take your earlier  post https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg887414#msg887414  that deals with Quran verses paragraph by paragraph and argue with you where you  are wrong with reference to  some of your assumptions
    So on that word "Muhammad listening "....., true we have plenty of stories in hadith which were written way after publishing those historical early Quran manuscripts., But Authenticity of Quranic Muhammad  is a questionable history dear A Muslim...  please go through this folder.. The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...  and focus on this post https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16018.msg886980#msg886980   in that folder and and we will discuss further on your post

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    I am happy to hear that. There are many names which I am not seeing anymore, Ibn Bilal, Absurdist, etc? Are they still active on the forums or have they left? And that thread by you that you have linked looks very interesting. I will definitely check it out. The only reason why I used the explanations of Ibn Kathir and others, is because many Sunni’s accept them as authoritative. So I am not trying to be historically reliable in my argumentation concerning what REALLY happened back then, but I am trying to be historically reliable concerning what ISLAM says. This story, which Islam proposes, is what many Muslims accept. These Muslims do not accept the statements of historians which try and rewrite what we have thought all along from early Islamic history (whether that is on if Muhammad actually existed or anything similar to this). It is essentially a way of refuting Islam, with Islam. These other academics are just a bonus.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9005 - March 29, 2020, 09:47 PM

    .............. It is essentially a way of refuting Islam, with Islam..............

     Cheesy  that is a good one and I got the answer from you on using Muhammad story from hadith volumes,, True Muslim Mullahs read hadith more often than Quran..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9006 - March 31, 2020, 11:18 AM


    Simon Brelaud
    The First Syriac Inscription on Jar in the Arab-Persian Gulf

    Three years ago, the French-Kuwaiti Archaeological Mission in Failaka discovered a sherd with three bitumen letters written on it in pottery bags from the 2014 season at al‑Qusur monastery. It is, therefore, the first Syriac inscription discovered in Kuwait, and one of the rare testimonies of this writing in the Arab-Persian Gulf.

    https://www.academia.edu/42432722/The_First_Syriac_Inscription_on_Jar_in_the_Arab-Persian_Gulf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9007 - March 31, 2020, 04:55 PM

    Online seminar by Ian David Morris

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1244947512231899137
    Quote
    TOMORROW (Wednesday) 17.00–18.30 (UK)
    FREE seminar in Early Islamic Studies
    LIVE at http://twitch.tv/iandavidmorris

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9008 - March 31, 2020, 11:00 PM

    Kevin van Bladel - Review: The Apocalypse of Empire: Imperial Eschatology in Late Antiquity and Early Islam, by Stephen J. Shoemaker

    https://sla.ucpress.edu/content/4/1/133
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9009 - April 01, 2020, 10:38 AM



    Tried to subscribe to twitch and got this : *Usernames must only contain alphanumeric characters.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9010 - April 01, 2020, 04:59 PM

    Kevin van Bladel - Review: The Apocalypse of Empire: Imperial Eschatology in Late Antiquity and Early Islam, by Stephen J. Shoemaker

    https://sla.ucpress.edu/content/4/1/133


    The apocalyptic nature of the Quran seems convincingly proven. But the economic motivational side that Van Bladel sketches is new to me: 4/5th of booty going to the fighting men. But in the Levant we dont see any signs of looting and destruction 7th C. Rather the opposite. We see that regular tax collection went on.

    Or am I missing here a whole lot of facts?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9011 - April 01, 2020, 05:17 PM

    The apocalyptic nature of the Quran

    Or am I missing here a whole lot of facts?


    Hello mundi., many will not like me saying this., "many folks who read Quran and pick and choose verses  for their hypothesis  read it  upside down and do not analyze those verses  carefully ., hence they fall in to that  apocalyptic hole"

    If there is any verse that is of such nature I am certain you will find same/equivalent sayings in other faith books that were present much before the birth of Prophet of Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9012 - April 01, 2020, 05:38 PM

    Quote
    If there is any verse that is of such nature I am certain you will find same/equivalent sayings in other faith books that were present much before the birth of Prophet of Islam..


    Yeez,

    Of course apocalyptic material was present all over the place in Late Antiquity. That is Shoemaker's thesis. And yes, plenty of end of times verses in Quran. Link to Shoemaker's book, death of a prophet, has been posted here before.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9013 - April 01, 2020, 06:14 PM

    Yeez,

    Of course apocalyptic material was present all over the place in Late Antiquity...............

     Cheesy can I rephrase those words as
    ............................... I am certain you will find same/equivalent sayings in other faith books that were present much before the birth of Prophet of Islam..

    OR WOULD I BE WRONG SAYING THAT?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9014 - April 01, 2020, 06:31 PM

    Yeez,

    No you're not wrong as far as I can read....
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9015 - April 01, 2020, 06:37 PM

    Yeez,

    No you're not wrong as far as I can read....

    all right .. then what actually this means

    Quote
    apocalyptic material was present all over the place in Late Antiquity

    what is that time period in that early Islam??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9016 - April 01, 2020, 06:49 PM

    Yeez,

    We ar discussing Van Bladel's review of Shoemaker...He says there is Hellenistic and early Roman Jewish apocalyptic literature for 5th and 6th C. And Van Bladel says it's convincing. What else can I add?

    My problem is the 4/5th booty that is attributed in an apocalyptic mind set. And I can't connect that with the non-destruction in Levant.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9017 - April 01, 2020, 08:54 PM

    Tried to subscribe to twitch and got this : *Usernames must only contain alphanumeric characters.


    Along with the lockdown and everyone staying home my internet connection has slowed right down, so there was no chance of me following it. He did say on twitter that he would probably put it up on youtube in a while.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9018 - April 01, 2020, 09:01 PM

    But in the Levant we dont see any signs of looting and destruction 7th C. Rather the opposite. We see that regular tax collection went on.

    Or am I missing here a whole lot of facts?


    Surely most cities would have negotiated surrender and avoided looting for the most part. There must have been looting in places that resisted though, Caesarea for example.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9019 - April 01, 2020, 09:10 PM

    Quote
    Surely most cities would have negotiated surrender and avoided looting for the most part. There must have been looting in places that resisted though, Caesarea for example.


    Kevin Van Bladel adds to Shoemaker's work that the economics to make the conquest work are important too. He says that looting and the direct material gain must have been a driving force too for the  fighters (and talks of 4/5 of the loot being assigned to them, a generous deal).

    It sounds logical. But if the only place that was looted was Caesarea (and I seem to ahve read recently that that is contested too), those fighters had a long wait before they got their reward, especially in an eschatological setting.

    We know that life seemed to go on undisrupted in the Levant. It just doesnt fit with this uncontrolled take over.

    I agree that the Quran is eschatological. But apparently this book didnt have that much influence the first years. The Arabs went on quietly administrating the area, keeping on the administrators, importing the copper coins from the defeated Byzantines...

    What am I missing here?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9020 - April 02, 2020, 09:19 AM

    Kevin Van Bladel adds to Shoemaker's work ....................

    mundi did he publish anything on that Or are you talking about that book review link of zecca post? 
    Kevin van Bladel - Review: The Apocalypse of Empire: Imperial Eschatology in Late Antiquity and Early Islam, by Stephen J. Shoemaker

    https://sla.ucpress.edu/content/4/1/133


    Quote
    Review: The Apocalypse of Empire: Imperial Eschatology in Late Antiquity and Early Islam, by Stephen J. Shoemaker.Pdf
    Kevin van Bladel
    Studies in Late Antiquity
    Vol. 4 No. 1, Spring 2020
    (pp. 133-136) DOI: 10.1525/sla.2020.4.1.133


    mundi I guess  you are talking about that above pdf  file  which  has that book review as publication  of Kevin Bladel

    did I get that right?

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9021 - April 02, 2020, 10:03 AM

    Along with the lockdown and everyone staying home my internet connection has slowed right down, so there was no chance of me following it. He did say on twitter that he would probably put it up on youtube in a while.


    Ok, thanks Zeca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9022 - April 02, 2020, 10:07 AM

    Kevin Van Bladel adds to Shoemaker's work that the economics to make the conquest work are important too. He says that looting and the direct material gain must have been a driving force too for the  fighters (and talks of 4/5 of the loot being assigned to them, a generous deal).

    It sounds logical. But if the only place that was looted was Caesarea (and I seem to ahve read recently that that is contested too), those fighters had a long wait before they got their reward, especially in an eschatological setting.

    We know that life seemed to go on undisrupted in the Levant. It just doesnt fit with this uncontrolled take over.

    I agree that the Quran is eschatological. But apparently this book didnt have that much influence the first years. The Arabs went on quietly administrating the area, keeping on the administrators, importing the copper coins from the defeated Byzantines...

    What am I missing here?


    The only battle that plausibly existed was the Yarmuk one (636) which has opened the West to the conquest. Heraclius was gone long before (630). The Romans were exhausted and decimated by the Justinian plague since 540 and 30 years of war vs the Persians.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9023 - April 02, 2020, 10:41 AM

    From van Bladel's review:

    Quote
    When a historian explains social events to me through the factor of ideology, I still want to follow the money...



    Yeez,

    I was responding to above. My comments are only on the material of the book review.

    Altara,

    Quote
    The Romans were exhausted...


    What does that mean concretely? No money? No people? No will to fight?

    If it is the latter, that can't only be explained by the factors you mentioned. Maybe it was ideology too? Maybe  early 7th C Christianity was not ready to fight?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9024 - April 02, 2020, 11:08 AM

    Van Bladel and his economic loot model:

    Archeological reports of the cities of Southern Levant mostly show 1 early Islamic mosque and several beautifully decorated churches that seemed to have kept functioning during 7th C. On top of that there were a multitude of monasteries.

    If only looking at archeological record, I dont think an archeologist would conclude for this 7th C that an aggressive new ideology was in power. Rather contrary. Maybe a new sect was emerging?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9025 - April 02, 2020, 11:16 AM



    Altara,

    What does that mean concretely? No money? No people? No will to fight?

    If it is the latter, that can't only be explained by the factors you mentioned. Maybe it was ideology too? Maybe  early 7th C Christianity was not ready to fight?


    The Justinian Plague  is the main cause of the success of the Arab conquest/takeover in the West and the war of Khosro II against the  Romans is the main cause of the success of the Arab conquest/takeover of Persia.
    Plus : Important and spectacular climate and sickness catastrophes happen during the 6th c. and are duly noted by contemporaries  cf. Timothy P. Newfield, “The Climate Downturn of 536–50”, in The Palgrave Handbook of Climate History, Sam White, Christian Pfister, Franz Mauelshagen (eds.), Palgrave & Macmillan, 2018, p.447-493 ; cf. Ann Gibbons “Why 536 was ‘the worst year to be alive’” https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/why-536-was-worst-year-be-alive.

    Edit : I consider that all the allusions of the end of the world in the Quran and the apocalyptic atmosphere of the Christian literature of the 6th c. are directly linked to those events and to the war between the Persians and the Romans (602-628). The Quran uses deeply this apocalyptic atmosphere to serve his message.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9026 - April 02, 2020, 11:46 AM

    From van Bladel's review:

    Yeez,

    I was responding to above. My comments are only on the material of the book review.


     oh Ok., well I would NOT consider that  as publication., but a review of  a book which was written by another Author..
    Van Bladel and his economic loot model:

    .................

    "Economic Loot Model  "  ..  ... Good word .. big word dear mundi.,  one should write a book on that

    with a title like  ....."Economic Loot Model of Early Islamic Expansion  "  .....  lol..

    anyways did Kevin publish anything on that "Economic Loot Model  "??

    Quote


    well  as mundi mentioned an economic model of Kevin   in reviewing that book., So   I must carefully read this "LOOT BOOTY" economic model of Islam that Kevin added in his review., Let me separate that part of his review from rest of it to read it carefully 

    Quote
    ...........When a historian explains social events to me through the factor of ideology, I still want to follow the money. Ideological organization is one of several effective means of imperialism, but apocalyptic warfare cannot sustain decades of enthusiasm without victories and God-given cash. It is not cynical to acknowledge that the religiously tinged fervor for annual raids and territorial conquest was sustained by sensational material revenues based on plunder (fayʾ) for God. What is missing from this book's profound account of the apocalypticism of this empire of conquest is the worldly elation of men who emigrated from arid lands to subjugate richer nations, when God “opened” the land to them, and found themselves hauling off vast quantities of treasure, livestock, and innumerable human captives enslaved for labor and sex. For several generations, the fighting men continued to demand their customary share of four fifths of all the booty they took, which they understood to have been guaranteed to them by Go, who wanted only one fifth for Himself (Q 8:41). That portion was forwarded to the caliph, who was expected to redistribute it to the needy . Caliphs who found ways to extract more than that share were deemed impious by the fighting men whose personal allotments were thereby lessened. The growing mismatch between the financial exigencies of Umayyad government, on the one hand, and Muslim warriors’ demands for customary shares of the righteous spoils of the End Time, on the other, appears also to have been a struggle between the needs and desires of the caliphs to govern as monarchs, as decades passed and the Hour had still not yet come, and the material rewards for militancy that had been prescribed during the earliest years of conquest, when the fight was still vividly apocalyptic for many of the participants.

    When the Hour still did not arrive, it seems to have become less practical to allow four fifths of the spoils of war to be distributed among fighters who were already paid salaries from the state. “That money will overflow among you” became one of several accepted signs that the end was nigh in the seventh century (171). The label of impiety accruing to the Umayyads was alleged for many reasons, but one of them was that they dared to interfere in the spoils of war that the Muslim community of warriors expected as a right that had stood since a time when the end was anticipated within the present lifetime, when the revenues of a future state were therefore not a substantial concern. For, as Shoemaker argues, there was not supposed to be a future state. I would add: according to the material beneficiaries of this ideology. It is a component of imperial ideology and not its financial underpinnings that is the focus of this book, but I would have liked to see the author address the monetary side of the allegedly otherworldly concern with God's imminent final Mandate (amr allāh, 138–139).

    This book is a reminder of the Hour—here, the concept of the Hour, which has been intermittently neglected by historians of the origins of Islam. The book argues persuasively that early Islamic apocalyptic literature contains a rich quantity of early Islamic materials that will add to our understanding of the origins of this movement, and that this Islamic apocalyptic literature did not come out of nowhere, but makes sense only in the context of earlier, pre-Islamic apocalyptic ideas that came to a head during Muḥammad's lifetime. The prophet was a sign of his own time. Because the book makes distinct arguments about late ancient apocalypticism and early Islam, scholars of these two subjects must study it..............


    well that is a food for thought.. but should I accept it ?  ... well...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9027 - April 02, 2020, 05:22 PM

    Arabian Christianity: The Historical Evidence for Christians on the Southern Side of the Arabian Gulf

     Whilst the relative scarcity of both texts and archaeological remains makes it difficult to pinpoint the arrival of Christianity in the Arabian Gulf with any certainty it seems relatively safe to assume that there were Christians in the region from the fourth century onwards. Initially at least, these Christians were not native to the area. In !" and "# the $asanian %ing, $hapur I deported large numbers of Christian prisoners of war from Antioch having defeated the &oman citi'ens of $yria in battle. (he material evidence for this is somewhat limited but late anti)ue $yrian artefacts have been found on both sides of the Gulf. Ghirshman recorded that on %harg there were a number of pre*Islamic rock tombs and the most spectacular of these were two caves of a +almyrene- type. In addition there were more than a hundred other tombs in the eastern part of the island and he reported that a number had crosses inscribed over their entrances and in one case one had a $yriac inscription. Another had a cartouche but the inscription was too weathered to be legible.
    https://www.academia.edu/14928955/Arabian_Christianity_The_Historical_Evidence_for_Christians_on_the_Southern_Side_of_the_Arabian_Gulf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9028 - April 03, 2020, 12:32 PM

    well this is what mundi says in these two posts  ., and the posts raises  very important questions/points  on Kevin's Loot Booty Islamic Expansion model ., It is clearly new way of explaining early Islamic expansion as he takes  A Verse From Quran(Q 8:41) and makes his point., So let me put mundi posts as pointers..

    Quote
    Van Bladel and his economic loot model:

    1). Archeological reports of the cities of Southern Levant mostly show 1 early Islamic mosque and several beautifully decorated churches that seemed to have kept functioning during 7th C. On top of that there were a multitude of monasteries.

    2). If only looking at archeological record, I dont think an archeologist would conclude for this 7th C that an aggressive new ideology was in power. Rather contrary. Maybe a new sect was emerging?

    3). Kevin Van Bladel adds to Shoemaker's work that the economics to make the conquest work are important too. He says "that looting and the direct material gain must have been a driving force too for the  fighters (and talks of 4/5 of the loot being assigned to them, a generous deal)."

    4). It sounds logical. But if the only place that was looted was Caesarea (and I seem to have read recently that that is contested too), those fighters had a long wait before they got their reward, especially in an eschatological setting.

    5). We know that life seemed to go on undisputed in the Levant. It just doesn't fit with this uncontrolled take over.

    6). I agree that the Quran is eschatological.(( PART OF QURAN IS )).,  But apparently this book didn't have that much influence the first years. The Arabs went on quietly administrating the area, keeping on the administrators, importing the copper coins from the defeated Byzantines...

    What am I missing here?



    Well those are the six points from mundi., And they are very important to understand the reasons for the expansion of Islam in earlier Islamic times , in   medieval times  and EVEN TODAY...

    And I HAVE THE ANSWER TO MUNDI Question.,  yes mundi is missing something ., in fact ., all historians., Pro-Islmaic  and Anti Islamic historians are missing something..

    dear  mundi,  glad to see those pointers from you

    and my good wishes to you
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9029 - April 03, 2020, 03:23 PM

    Yeez,

    Well, why don't you tell me in eg maximum a 10 line paragraph what I am missing?
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