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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8970 - March 10, 2020, 09:55 AM

    Altara,

    I wrote down what I learnt out of Dye's talk. I think you can share a bit more than just telling me you agree with what I say.


    Well, I do not know what to say more of it. The rest regards my work.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8971 - March 10, 2020, 10:15 AM

    .........................; Dye claims more or less constantly that he is an historian, he calls his book "the Quran of the historians" .................Whereas he titles his book "the Quran of the historians" [/i ]and claims to be one.

    Hu!...  there is a book by  Guillaume Dye, with that name   "the Quran of the historians" ??

    I appreciate any link on that dear Altara.......

    https://twitter.com/guillaumedye?lang=en

    https://ulb.academia.edu/GuillaumeDye

    "The Palermo Qurʾān (AH373/982–3AD) and its historical context" CHAPTER  29  by Jeremy Johns 2017..

    Quote
    The manuscript is written on parchment, and originally had 277 folios, arranged in twenty-nine quires,
     gathered in the usual way of Islamic manuscripts, hair side to flesh side, with each quire beginning with a hair side. The folios measure 250mm wide by 176mm high, but have clearly been cropped. At this relatively late date, the horizontal format may exemplify the conservatism of the western Islamic world. The text-box measures 100mm by 160mm, with seventeen lines to the page. The wide margins, and the relatively small text-box occupying no more than 36% of the page, suggest that the quantity of parchment used was not a consideration. If so, then the small, compact script, crammed into seventeen closely spaced lines, may have been chosen on aesthetic grounds. How many sheep were required for parchment? A large, modern breed of sheep can yield a rectangle of finished parchment bigger than 600mm by 800mm,  from which four bifolia for this manuscript might have been cut by positioning the fold so that it coincided with the spine, in which case as few as thirty-five sheep might have sufficed. However, sheep in late tenth-century Sicily are likely to have measured no more than 60cm–70cm tall at the withers, and thus to have yielded a rectangle of finished parchment no bigger than 500mm by 700mm. ................

     
    interesting


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8972 - March 11, 2020, 03:36 PM



    "What the Qur'an Meant: And Why It Matters"

    Gary Wills,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulK5re6b52g

    My Koran Problem by Gary Wills

    The Catholic Writer Garry Wills Explores the Quran.......... by By Lesley Hazleton., Dec. 20, 2017 in New York Times

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8973 - March 11, 2020, 04:32 PM

    Guillaume Dye on the synoptic problem of the Quran. More than 1 hour and a half of listening pleasure!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYDtMQnKTHU&t=5696s

    (for the ones who understand French of course   dance)


    One can use the YT device to have English subs.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8974 - March 11, 2020, 10:29 PM

    New documentary texts and the early  Islamic state1   by ROBERT HOYLAND  ..  This article began its life as a lecture given in French at the Collège de France (January 2005)  at the invitation of Dr Arietta Papaconstantinou. ....

    Quote
    ................In the first place we should remember that such texts were not intended as historical reports. When Muhammad does appear in the material record, it is not to note his existence or to detail the events of his life, but to make use of him as a propaganda weapon. He makes his debut on two Arab Sasanian silver coins, on the margin of which is inscribed a truncated Muslim profession of faith: ‘In the name of God, Muhammad is the messenger of God’ (bism Allah Muhammad rasuml Allah). Both were minted at Bishapur in Fars and bear the usual Sasanian imperial bust on the obverse and a Sasanian fire-altar on the reverse.

    They are dated to the years 66 and 67 AH, which correspond to 685–86 and 686–87 CE, and the issuing authority is named as ‘Abd al-Malik ibn ‘Abd Allah (ibn ‘Am mir), who was married to Hind, sister of the rebel caliph Ibn al-Zubayr, who was fighting to oust the incumbent caliph ‘Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan..............


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8975 - March 13, 2020, 05:54 PM

    Shady Hekmat Nasser (2020) - The Second Canonization of the Qurʾān (324/936)

    Quote
    In The Second Canonization of the Qurʾān, Nasser studies the transmission and reception of the Qurʾānic text and its variant readings through the work of Ibn Mujāhid (d. 324/936), the founder of the system of the Seven Eponymous Readings of the Qurʾān. The overarching project aims to track and study the scrupulous revisions the Qurʾān underwent, in its recited, oral form, through the 1,400-year journey towards a final, static, and systematized text.

    For the very first time, the book offers a complete and detailed documentation of all the variant readings of the Qurʾān as recorded by Ibn Mujāhid. A comprehensive audio recording accompanies the book, with more than 3,500 audio files of Qurʾānic recitations of variant readings.


    https://brill.com/view/title/55138?fbclid=IwAR39nY9xEfTgIX0RJCeSlGZrLFXktdVgzKL0Egu9mjk6NVBayCjaJk4BszI
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8976 - March 14, 2020, 10:10 AM

    Yeez,

    About the Gary Wills video:

    Does he give an accurate representation of the Quran and  Islam in your opinion?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8977 - March 14, 2020, 05:22 PM

    Yeez,

    About the Gary Wills video:

    Does he give an accurate representation of the Quran and  Islam in your opinion?

    short answer is "NO" dear mundi.,  I say here.,  Altara has better understanding of that book than almost all the publications  and books i ever read on Quran ..

    please read his............(( My Koran Problem by Gary Wills  ))............ 10 page article .. and you will find the problem with Gary Wills understanding of Quran..  but he is right in one way., people ...Who hate Quran and Islam and those who love Quran and Islam + HATE OTHERS...    do not seem to have read that book in its entirety and and properly.............


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8978 - March 14, 2020, 07:28 PM

    Gary Wills and the Quran

    He writes down a very 21st C Christian interpretation of the Quran. But he seems to forget that Muslims are not Christians and see the Quran differently.

    He " is repelled by some aspects of the book—the acceptance of slavery, of polygamy, of
    patriarchy, of war".   Wills  can easily push those verses aside . But if you are a believing Muslim, how does one push aside the word of God?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8979 - March 14, 2020, 07:56 PM

    Gary Wills and the Quran

    He writes down a very 21st C Christian interpretation of the Quran. But he seems to forget that Muslims are not Christians and see the Quran differently.

    He " is repelled by some aspects of the book—the acceptance of slavery, of polygamy, of
    patriarchy, of war".   Wills  can easily push those verses aside . But if you are a believing Muslim, how does one push aside the word of God?

    well believing Muslims or believing faith heads of any faith must learn to live with that.,  .....THAT THESE BOOKS/SAYINGS ARE THE WORDS OF INTELLECTUALS OF THAT TIME ......and at best they have some good statements that are/ were useful to that times and to all times .. And....and most of such good statements are there in every faith book  and every cultural constructs even in those cultures that do not have written languages .,  Otherwise these folks who stuck to these age old children/nonsense stories  will struggle through out their life with cognitive dissonance and go on preaching silly stories through out their life..

    The other way of living is .. USE GOLDEN RULE TO EVERY STATEMENT OF THEIR FAITH BOOKS and whatever falls with in that golden rule perimeter.,   live life with in those parameters .. Clearly there are good sayings in Quran.. but to me whole 114 chapters are diverted to tell a story of monotheistic religious ideology with constantly reminding the readers that Jesus Christ is NOT ..god/son of god but a prophet of his times... Nothing more  and nothing less in that book dear mundi ....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8980 - March 14, 2020, 08:22 PM

    Yeez,

    The texts of the Quran influence the societies of muslim dominated states. We see the result of that influence in the sociological choices these states make (eg polygamy).That is inevitable. And Gary Will's views on the texts won't change that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8981 - March 14, 2020, 10:50 PM

    Yeez,

    The texts of the Quran influence the societies of muslim dominated states. We see the result of that influence in the sociological choices these states make (eg polygamy).That is inevitable. And Gary Will's views on the texts won't change that.

    yes they did (THE TEXTS).. and yes they do even today dear mundi., . not only just on polygamy but Gary Wills being good man .. Good Catholic (NOT SURE ABOUT OBJECTIVE HISTORIAN) ...does not want say many bad things that are there  in Islam and  he understands such polygamy stuff overtly or covertly are there in many other faith books that talks about these stories of marriage and adultery .,    the difference is people of other faiths moved out of it in recent times due to  constructive women liberation struggles  where as so-called Islamic countries stuck in that hole., but they are also moving .. and Muslim women are struggling and fighting  in 21st century ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8982 - March 15, 2020, 10:01 AM

    Yeez,

    Quote
    and Muslim women are struggling and fighting  in 21st century ..


    We see a revival of eg hijab, also in Western countries that are more free societies and where women have the choice.. I guess that would also mean supporting polygamy and other traditional prescriptions are on the rise. Some people like that life style apparently. That seems to be the reality. Gary wills can be repelled by this, but others clearly are not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8983 - March 15, 2020, 01:10 PM

    Yeez,

    We see a revival of eg hijab, also in Western countries that are more free societies and where women have the choice.. I guess that would also mean supporting polygamy and other traditional prescriptions are on the rise. Some people like that life style apparently. That seems to be the reality. Gary wills can be repelled by this, but others clearly are not.

    hi mundi., hello mundi.,   first thing is first .,

    I hope you know what hijab looks like.,  I am sure you know that there is world difference going from hijab to polygamy..... SPECIALLY ISLAMIC POLYGAMY.....

    anyway you do have a point  but before going to that point of yours let me put these pictures for readers..





    please read more at http://istizada.com/muslim-veil-and-hijab-types-a-complete-guide/

    BUT YOUR  POINT IS VERY IMPORTANT & I WILL ADDRESS IT...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8984 - March 15, 2020, 01:16 PM

    Yeez,

    I know what a hijab is. If you think that is fine and it could be a lot worse, that is your opinion. I'm sure a lot of people think polygamy and patriarchy is fine too. Who am I to judge?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8985 - March 15, 2020, 01:33 PM

    Yeez,

    I know what a hijab is. If you think that is fine and it could be a lot worse, that is your opinion. I'm sure a lot of people think polygamy and patriarchy is fine too.

    No..no it is NOT just for you it is also for other readers dear mundi., you may know what hijab is.....I am   sure you know ., but I am not sure you know ITS ORIGINS, ITS HISTORY  AND ITS EXTRAPOLATION IN TO ISLAM.... the faith.....

    I don't know what to do., you are hitting with one stick and that crumble is hitting with another stick .. read and watch these links from another folder  that crumble responded to my post

    Quote


    what?? who you are to judge??
    Quote
    Who am I to judge?

    you are a very important person of this little  blue planet of some 8000 miles diameter with  some 8 billion humanearthlings and you must have FULL RIGHTS to judge,  question and write for/against the social /cultural/religious problems of human society dear mundi ., but we still not addressing the REAL PROBLEM behind these silly dress codes of faith heads  ..

    https://noorslist.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/types-hijab-syria-a8e.jpg

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8986 - March 23, 2020, 02:22 AM

    Wood---Christianity in the Arabian Peninsula.
    "Several papers delivered at this workshop contend that different suras in multiple
    “Qur’anic communities” were composed in Christian contexts.
    Carlos Segovia argues for the existence of four attitudes to Christianity in the
    Qur’ān. He proposes that the “unclear dissemination of vague identity markers against
    a background of common ideas and practices” gradually gave way to more firm
    boundaries between religious communities. For him, this explains the composition of
    sections of the Qur’ān that identify with Christianity from the inside, even as other
    references pursue a kind of unitarian theology that denies the divinity of Jesus.1
    Guillaume Dye also argues for the later adaptation of Christian material. He
    persuasively points to the alteration of the rhyme scheme of sura 19 and the insertion of
    anti-Christian material into a text that is “definitely not anti-Christian.” He states that
    this material originated in the liturgy and popular Christian traditions. He goes on to
    suggest that the specific context for this ‟Arabic soghitha” can be found in the Kathisma
    church near Jerusalem. He situates the composer of the original text in a multi-lingual
    milieu, where Greek, Aramaic, and Arabic were all used, and underscores the text’s
    broad Christology, which does not alienate any Christian group.2

    https://www.academia.edu/42289041/Draft_Christianity_in_the_Arabian_Peninsula
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8987 - March 23, 2020, 02:36 PM

    Wood's article:

    Hira seems to have held a central role in Arab Christianity and Arab culture. But the archeology does not give any material evidence of an early Islam or an early Arabic script.

    Is this a sign that Hira is not the cradle of the Quran and Islam? The geographical location lies elsewhere?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8988 - March 23, 2020, 04:54 PM

    Wood's article:

    Hira seems to have held a central role in Arab Christianity and Arab culture. But the archeology does not give any material evidence of an early Islam or an early Arabic script.

    Is this a sign that Hira is not the cradle of the Quran and Islam? The geographical location lies elsewhere?

    you mean cave  Hira near Mecca?


    Quote


    well you can look that mountain and the cave in those tubes.,  but  if that was  such a prominent place in early Islam., why Quran does not mention its name??   and true there is no Archaeological evidence of any Islam around that cave ..

    Simple answer to that question is .. those so-called  Quran manuscripts were authored  much before so called Islam or so-called  Islamic conquest of middle east

    Quote
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar...
    .


    So all that so-called history of early Islam that kids read in their mosque schools is QUESTIONABLE...


    anyways the question for you mundi.,  WHAT MATERIAL EVIDENCE  ONE SHOULD  LOOK FOR IN ASSIGNING THAT EVIDENCE TO ISLAM?? ....

    Quote


     and I question assumption of  all those who believe ., "THAT THERE WAS NO ARABIC LANGUAGE ., ARABIC MANUSCRIPTS & ARAB CHRISTIANS BEFORE ISLAM .. before the birth of prophet of Islam Muhammad(PUH)"

    Quote
    The Arabic Bible

    "............There has been a long standing debate amongst scholars as to whether the Bible was translated into Arabic in pre-Islamic Arabia or was a response to the coming of Islam in the 7th century. Most recently, Mitri Raheb (2013:130) has argued that the debates over the presence of an Arabic Bible have involved 'an emotional attachment to the issue'. Raheb remarks that there are those Arab Christians who have eagerly desired to prove the existence of a strong Arab Christian presence before the rise of Islam, as well as those who wish to prove that there were no orthodox Arab Christian biblical texts; that Islam utilised heterodox or heretical traditions which led to the Qur'anic views of Jesus, Mary and the Trinity. Finally, Raheb notes the role of certain 'Orientalists' who have been interested in discovering the historic connections between Near Eastern traditions of the Bible and early Islam (Raheb 2013:130-131).1 In a previous article, this author has also expressed this problem somewhat differently (Grafton 2013). Having now read Raheb, I prefer his articulation of this issue as 'an emotional attachment'. Arab Christians have a vested interest in proving that their historical roots go back directly to their ancestors as recorded in Acts 2:11. Christian apologists who wish to discredit Islam as having developed from a heretical form of Christianity have their own interest in finding diverse apocryphal non-canonical traditions from which Islam grew.

    This important debate aside, scholars of Late Antique Oriental Christianity (that is, from the 2nd to the 8th centuries CE) have recognised that regardless of whether the Bible was translated into Arabic before or after the coming of Islam, there are no current extant biblical texts from before the 9th century.2 A variety of Arabic MSS from the famous library at the St. Catherine's monastery in the Sinai that include portions of the New Testament have all been identified as 9th century works, including Sinai arab. 151, Sinai arab. 155, Sinai arab. 154, Sinai arab. 70, Sinai arab. 72, Sinai arab. 73, Sinai arab. 74, arpet (an Arabic codex of the Pauline Epistles), and Gregory-Aland 0136 and 0137. These manuscripts (MSS) or fragments have been studied by a variety of scholars; including Constantine von Tischendorf, Edvard Stenij, Agnes Smith Lewis, Margaret Dunlop Gibson, Anton Baumstark, Arthur Vööbus, Georg Graf, Harvey Staal, Bruce Metzger, and most recently by Hikmat Kachouh (Griffith 1985; Kachouh 2011; see also Atiya 1955).3 Kachouh's research has provided a great service to the ongoing discussion of the history of the Arab Bible and Arabic Christianity. His doctoral dissertation, and later published work, has segregated the Arabic versions of the Gospels into families of MSS; those that demonstrate a Syriac, Greek, Latin or Coptic textual origin, or a combination of these languages. Kachouh has argued that the earliest Arabic Gospel text that we now possess is Vatican Arabic Manuscript (MS) 13 from the Mar Saba monastery near Jerusalem that can be dated to around 800 CE. It includes Matthew, Mark and a portion of Luke and was more than likely translated from Syriac (Kachouh 2008; see this discussion in Griffith 2013:114-118).

    Probably the most famous of these Arabic texts, however, has been Sinai arab. 154, which was 'discovered' and studied by Ms. Margaret Dunlop Gibson (2003 [1899]) during one of her visits to the St. Catherine's monastery in 1893. This MSS not only includes the Acts of the Apostles and all seven Catholic Epistles translated from a previous Syriac version, but more importantly, the earliest Christian Arabic theological treatise known to date from around 750 CE, what has been called On the triune nature of God (Samir 1994; Swanson 1998). Whilst the story of Constantine von Tischendorf's finding and acquisition of the Codex Sinaiticus from the library at St. Catherine's has become the most well-known tale of modern biblical scholarship, the diaries of the Scottish sisters Margaret Dunlop Gibson and Agnes Smith Lewis that include their travels to St. Catherine's, their interactions with the monks of the monastery, and the treasures of the library is a simply delightful tale (Lewis & Gibson 1893). The inclusion of On the triune nature within Sinai arab. 154 highlights that whilst it is clear we have no remains of an Arabic Bible before the coming of Islam, there are those who have looked at extra-biblical literature for proof of a vibrant and living Arab Christian tradition. The scholarly work of Sidney Griffith, Samir Khalil Samir, Mark Swanson, David Thomas and Sandra T. Keating, amongst others, has advanced the work of Louis Cheikho, Alfred Mingana, Joseph Nassrallah, and George Graff of previous generations (Grypeou, Swanson & Thomas 2006). Yet, research into the identity and witness of the pre-Islamic Arabic Church is still in its infancy.

    The aforementioned ongoing research on the Arab Bible has demonstrated that the only extant versions of Arabic Christian scripture we currently possess can only be dated to 800 CE at the earliest. The lateness of these MSS has led most biblical textual scholars to relegate the Arabic Bible to a minor branch of textual scholarship. Metzger and Vööbus include these important MSS in their overviews of the texts of the New Testament, however, they do not consider them useful for early biblical textual studies. This assessment has supported a Western assumption that the Arab Church has had little to contribute to the rise of Christianity. We will return to this assumption in our conclusion....


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8989 - March 23, 2020, 09:43 PM

    Wood's article:

    Hira seems to have held a central role in Arab Christianity and Arab culture.


    Christianity is present in Iraq since the 2nd c. There was monasteries until Qatar. It is Iraq and the East coast which was Christianized not West coast. Why ? Because the West is totally barren until Najran.
    Quote
    But the archaeology does not give any material evidence of an early Islam or an early Arabic script.

    There never was a really excavation of Iraq.


    Quote
    Is this a sign that Hira is not the cradle of the Quran and Islam?


    I (personally...) do not think so.

    Quote
    The geographical location lies elsewhere?

    I do not think so as well.




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8990 - March 24, 2020, 07:56 AM

    Altara,

    Plenty of digging has been done in Al Hira:

    https://maxvanberchem.org/fr/activites-scientifiques/projets/archeologie/11-archeologie/27-archaeological-survey-of-al-hira

    I've gone over it some months ago and found nothing " early islam- proto islam". No early mosques, no inscriptions... Maybe I need to review the internet archeological record again. Have you found anything?

    But I think one should be careful not to take the absence of evidence in Hira as proof of whatever we wish for. That is already done for Mecca, we don't need a second black hole.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8991 - March 24, 2020, 10:39 AM

    The places which should be also excavated are Kufa-Najaf. They are not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8992 - March 24, 2020, 11:14 AM

    well see this Islamic confusion.....
    Quote
    .
    Wood's article:
    ..................

    Is this a sign that Hira is not the cradle of the Quran and Islam? .................





    See that confusion  with words..... for readers like me.,   .. Hira   cave near Mecca  Saudi Arabia  to     Al-Hira city in central Iraq ...

    Usually when those who are in touch with Islam  or related Islam/Muslim folks   talk about "Hira"  in 20th/21st century   on the subject of early Islam .,

    Simple folks consider that word "Hira"  as a Cave near Mecca in that Jabal al-Nour  mountain., 

    but I guess here "Hira means  that ancient city "Al-Hirah" which is present city Kufa in the present south central Iraq., 

    aunty wiki on that ancient city "Al-Hirah"   says

    Quote
    Al-Hirah was a significant city in pre-Islamic Arab history. Al-Hirah (4th-7th centuries) served as the capital of the Lakhmids, an Arab vassal kingdom of the Sasanian Empire, whom it helped in containing the nomadic Arabs to the south. The Lakhmid rulers of al-Hirah were recognized by Shapur II (337-358), the tenth Sasanian emperor.


    THAT IS STUPID ., At best Al-hira  was Persian  city and nothing to do with Arabs  and was not an Arab vassal kingdom.,   

    Oh well Islam is full of FOOLISH HISTORIANS., It is same problem.,   

    where is Hira? 
    where is Muhammad?
    Where is Mecca?
    where is Medina?
    where is zam zam ?

    in early Quran manuscripts

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8993 - March 24, 2020, 01:39 PM

    Yeez,

    Yes this Al-Hira was clearly an important centre of Christianity, but did it mean anything to early Islam? Altara seems to think so, I ahven't seen anything yet pointing in that direction.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8994 - March 24, 2020, 02:03 PM

    Yeez,

    Yes this Al-Hira was clearly an important centre of Christianity, but did it mean anything to early Islam? Altara seems to think so, I ahven't seen anything yet pointing in that direction.

    well it is important in the sense., it became a transient city for converting much of Iranians/Persians in to Islam.,  It is also possible some of those early Quran manuscripts IN ARABIC (So Called Meccan Surahs) might have been  written in that Al Hira city as it had well educated multilingual/multicultural population interfacing Arabic and Persian... that too many of them were Christians..  Persian Christians who may have had  with Persian & Arabic language  skills must have played a very important role in writing those early Quran manuscripts in Arabic .. This is well known

    Quote
    .............In the 5th century in Christianity, there were many developments which led to further fracturing of the State church of the Roman Empire. Emperor Theodosius II called two synods in Ephesus, one in 431 and one in 449, that addressed the teachings of Patriarch of Constantinople Nestorius and similar teachings. Nestorius had taught that Christ's divine and human nature were distinct persons, and hence Mary was the mother of Christ but not the mother of God. The Council rejected Nestorius' view causing many churches, centered on the School of Edessa, to a Nestorian break with the imperial church.  Persecuted within the Roman Empire, many Nestorians fled to Persia and joined the Sassanid Church (the future Church of the East) thereby making it a center of Nestorianism. . ............


    It is well established fact that Christianity in Iran dates back to the early years of the faith, pre-dating Islam. It has always been a minority religion relative to the majority state religions (Zoroastrianism before the Islamic conquest, Sunni Islam in the Middle Ages and Shia Islam in modern times). MUCH OF THE QURAN IS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WE SEE IN PRESENT ISLAM & IN EARLY ISLAM AND IN MEDIEVAL  ISLAMIC HISTORY.,   but most of the quran has to do with bible and bible stories.,  and and  with  staunch statements against Jesus Christ being son of god... whatever god it may be ..


    https://iranian.com/Opinion/2002b.html

    http://www.parstimes.com/history/

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8995 - March 26, 2020, 10:44 PM

    https://philitt.fr/2020/02/11/mohammad-ali-amir-moezzi-plusieurs-versions-du-coran-ont-precede-la-religion-islamique-imperiale/

    Q. What can we know historically about Muhammad's life?
    Answer by Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi:
    The historian can know almost nothing. By comparing all the available historical sources about Muhammad's life, we can determine what is certain and what is uncertain about it. However, as the very title of Stephen J. Shoemaker's article in the first volume of the Qur'an of historians, "The Lives of Muhammad", indicates, it is unfortunately almost impossible to know what Muhammad's life was. Comparison of the biographies of the prophet, the hadîths, the literature of the battles, the circumstances of the revelation, give us a picture of everything and its opposite. The reason for this is that, before their late harmonization, the narratives were elaborated in a context of civil wars between the faithful, which, moreover, became more complex with the Arab conquests and the birth of the empire. In such a context, everyone gives a representation of Muhammad that suits his own faction. The sources thus show us contradictory figures of the prophet, some as a follower of free will, others as a follower of determinism; some present him as a contemplative and poor man like the Christian monks, while others present him to us as a cunning and rich warrior. The data relating to the date of the Prophet's birth, that of the Hegira, that of his death, the number of his children or his wives, contradict each other! Schoemaker thus shows that Muhammad's life seems irretrievably lost in the midst of these different contradictory representations. However, this is not bad news for the historian, since this diversity of representations provides us with historical information about the authors and/or the groups that developed them.


    Q. Can we nevertheless know if Muhammad was indeed the author of the Koran?


    What can be known, however, is that Muhammad was a man who existed in the sixth century A.D. in Arabia and that he transmitted a spiritual message consisting of three main dogmas: the oneness of God, belief in the mission of the prophets and belief in the Last Judgement, with particular emphasis on the nearness of the end times. These three elements constitute the Creed of the Muslims and other monotheists in the region. As to whether Muhammad was the author (or transmitter) of at least part of the Qur'an, the question is discussed. According to many, he was at least the author of the final part of the Qur'an, which is apocalyptic.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8996 - March 26, 2020, 11:22 PM

    Beyond the Cairo Edition: On the Study of
    Early Quranic Codices
    Nicolai Sinai
    Oxford University
    This essay reviews two recent volumes containing editions of important early
    quranic codices. One of these is the so-called Sanaa Palimpsest, whose lower text
    at present remains our only known material witness to a recension of the quranic
    text that is different from the canonical one; the other is the Codex Amrensis.
    The essay devotes particular attention to the question of the textual relationship
    between the Quran’s standard text and that documented by the lower layer of the
    Sanaa Palimpsest, and to Asma Hilali’s claim that the Sanaa Palimpsest never
    constituted a full quranic codex but only “a collection of disparate leaves.”

    https://www.academia.edu/42333408/_Beyond_the_Cairo_Edition_On_the_Study_of_Early_Quranic_Codices_Journal_of_the_American_Oriental_Society_140_no._1_2020_189_204
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8997 - March 27, 2020, 02:39 AM

    Brief introduction to why we should doubt the claim that the Qur’ān is of divine origins — evidences that show Muhammad frequented with Christians and Jews (this includes Muhammad listening to the People of the Book recite their scriptures), and evidences of plagiarism:


    The tafsīr of Surah al-Muddaththir, ayāh 25 by Al-Jalalayn, says: “this is nothing but the speech of humans’ similar to what they the idolaters had said ‘It is only a human that is teaching him’ Q. 16103”. But who is this ayāh specifically referring to? Ibn Abbas, in his tafsīr, tells us in the tafsīr of the same ayāh (25) in Surah al-Muddaththir: “(This) which Muhammad (pbuh) says, is (naught else than speech of mortal man) the speech of JABR and YASAR”. Now that we know their names, who were these two individuals? Al-Jalalayn tells us in his tafsīr of Surah An-Nahl, ayāh 103: “And verily wa-laqad is for confirmation We know that they say ‘It is only a human that is teaching him the Qur’ān’ — this was a CHRISTIAN BLACKSMITH whom THE PROPHET USED TO FREQUENT. God exalted be He says The tongue the language of him to whom they refer to whom they incline with the accusation that he is the one teaching him is foreign’; while this Qur’ān is in a clear Arabic tongue one of lucidity and clarity so how can a foreigner be teaching him?”. Here, it is clear that Muhammad would regularly go and see this Christian blacksmith.
     
    Links: https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=74&tAyahNo=25&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=74&tAyahNo=25&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=16&tAyahNo=103&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
     
    In Asbab al-Nuzul, in the tafsīr of Surah al-Al-Baqarah, ayāh 98, ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab is a witness to seeing Muhammad present at the study circles that the Jews would have about their Torah: “[2:98] (Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels...) [2:98]. Abu Bakr al-Asfahani informed us > al-Hafiz Abu'l Shaykh [al-Asfahani] > Abu Yahya al-Razi> Sahl ibn 'Uthman > ‘Ali ibn Mushir > Dawud > al-Sha'bi who said: “Said 'Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be well pleased with him: 'I used to go to the JEWS UPON THEIR STUDY OF THE TORAH and was amazed to see the CONFORMITY OF THE QUR’AN WITH THE TORAH and OF THE TORAH WITH THE QUR’AN. On one occasion they said: 'O 'Umar! We do not like anyone more than we like you'. I asked: 'And why is that?' They said: 'Because you come to us and mix with us'. I said: 'I come to you only because of my amazement at how the different parts of the Book of Allah strengthen each other, and how the Qur'an is in conformity with the Torah and how the Torah is in conformity with the Qur'an'. AS I WAS WITH THEM ONE DAY, ALLAH’S MESSENGER, Allah bless him and give him peace, PASSED BY BEHIND ME”.
     
    Link: https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=98&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
     

    Also in Asbab al-Nuzul, the tafsīr of Surah an-Nahl, ayāh 103, we find another piece of evidence that links the above-mentioned, ‘’blacksmith’’ to two individuals. This also shows us what Muhammad would do when in their presence: “(And We know well that they say: Only a man teacheth him. The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is outlandish…) [16:103]. Abu Nasr Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Muzakki > Abu ‘Abd Allah Muhammad ibn Hamdan al-Zahid > ‘Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-‘Aziz > Abu Hisham al-Rifa‘i > Ibn Fudayl >Husayn > ‘Abd Allah ibn Muslim who said: “We OWNED TWO CHRISTIAN YOUTHS from the people of ‘Ayn Tamr, ONE CALLED YASAR AND THE OTHER JABR. Their TRADE WAS MAKING SWORDS but THEY ALSO COULD READ THE SCRIPTURES IN THEIR OWN TONGUE. The MESSENGER OF ALLAH, Allah bless him and give him peace, USED TO PASS BY THEM AND LISTEN TO THEIR READING. As a result, the idolaters used to say: ‘He is being taught by them!’ To give them the lie, Allah, exalted is He, revealed (The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is outlandish, and this is clear Arabic speech)”.
     
    Link: https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=16&tAyahNo=103&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
     
     
    The different fables and legends that found themselves within the Qur’an:
     
    In Surah al-Ma’idah, ayāh 30-35, there is a story connected with Cain and Abel. It is in the 31’st ayāh, that it is related that after Cain had killed his brother: “Then Allah sent a crow searching in the ground to show him how to hide the disgrace of his brother. He said, "O woe to me! Have I failed to be like this crow and hide the body of my brother?" And he became of the regretful.” This fable has its origins in a Rabbinical work known as the, ‘Targum of Jonathan’. Pirke Rabbi Eliezer, in Chapter XXI, says, "Adam and his companion sat weeping and mourning for him (Abel), and did not know what to do with him, as burial was unknown to them. Then came a raven, whose companion was dead, took its body, scratched in the earth, and hid it before their eyes. Then said Adam, 'I shall do as this raven has done,' and at once be took Abel's corpse, dug in the earth and hid it”.
     
    This fable is also found in the Midrash Tanhuma-Yelammedenu. The English translation of it, is: “Midrash Tanhuma-Yelammedenu: An English Translation of Genesis and Exodus from the Printed Version of Tanhuma-Yelammedenu with an Introduction, Notes, and Indexes”.
     
    Link (page 33): https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WLOi9vWEzTEC&printsec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=Raven&f=false

     
    In several places of the Qur'ān the story is told of Abraham being cast into a fiery furnace by order of a king (whom some of the mufassirīn name as Nimrod), because of his refusal to worship idols. Ibn Abbas clearly identifies Nimrod in his tafsīr of Surah al-Anbīya, ayāh 52: ‘’(When he said unto his father) Azar (and his folk) Nimrod son of Canaan and his host: (What are these images unto which ye pay devotion) which you worship?’’. It is said in Surah al-Anbīya’, ayāh 69, that when Abraham was cast into the fire, Allāh said: “Allah said, "O fire, be coolness and safety upon Abraham”. The origins of this other fable is found in a Jewish book called the, ‘Midrash Rabba’. From the Torah, we learn that Abraham (before his entrance into the land of Canaan) resided in the city named, ‘’Ur’’ in the land of Chaldea; but that the God of the Torah brought him out of that city and took him to the, ‘’land of promise’’. Thus in Genesis 15:7, we read, "I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees’’. Ur being a city, was unknown to the ignorant Jewish author of the Midrash, this being a Jewish scribe named Jonathan Ben Uziel, who mistook the Hebrew word "Ur" for the Hebrew word which also means "fire.", thus mistakenly supporting the idea that the God of the Torah had delivered Abraham out of a fire.
     
    So, to explain the verse "I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees," a story was invented of Abraham being cast into fire by Nimrod, where he was then miraculously saved by God. This story was well known to the Arabian Jews of Muhammad's time. In the Midrash Rabba (also named as Genesis Rabbah), it is written, in Rabbah 38.13 by a first-century Jewish sage called R. Hiyya (Hiyya the Great) that, “this happened at the time when Nimrod cast Abraham into the oven of fire, because he would not worship the idols (fire; water; cloud; and wind) that leave was withheld from the fire to hurt him”. Therefore, this fable, based on a mistranslation and misunderstanding of the Biblical verse in question which mentions the word ‘Ur’, made itself into the Qur’ān as a verse, which instead of talking of a city, refers to a Jewish fable of Abraham being saved from an imaginative, ‘’fire’’. So how can the Qur’ān be of divine origins, when this verse is of the origins of a Jewish sage?
     
    To highlight other similarities with this:
     
    In Surah al-Anbīya’, ayāh 57, (with Abraham speaking): ‘’And [I swear] by Allah, I will surely PLAN AGAINST YOUR IDOLS after you have TURNED AND GONE AWAY”. In the Midrash Rabbah, it says: “Terah was a manufacturer of IDOLS. He ONCE WENT AWAY somewhere and left Abraham to sell them in his place”. In the next ayāh, 58, it says: “So he made them (idols) INTO FRAGMENTS, EXCEPT A LARGE ONE AMONG THEM, that they might return to it [and question]”. Again, in the Midrash Rabbah, it says: “So he took a stick, BROKE THEM, and put the stick IN THE HAND OF THE LARGEST”.
     
    Link to the tafsīr of Ibn Abbas: https://quranx.com/tafsirs/21.52 and: https://quranx.com/tafsirs/2.258

     
    We find a long story of Prophet Solomon and the Queen of Sheba in which it is stated that the former sent a letter to the Queen by a bird, inviting her to stop worshipping the sun and to only worship Allāh. The story goes on to say that the letter resulted in the determination of the Queen to visit Solomon. In Surah An-Naml, ayāh 44, (when she arrived at the palace of the King): ‘’She was told, "Enter the palace." But when she saw it, she thought it was a body of water and uncovered her shins [to wade through]. He said, "Indeed, it is a palace [whose floor is] made smooth with glass." She said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, and I submit with Solomon to Allah, Lord of the worlds."
     
    In the Targum Sheni (a commentary of the Book of Esther) 1:3, a Rabbinical work full of fables and mythical stories, practically the whole story as told by Muhammad, is found within it. In this Targum, which can be supplemented by details found in the Alphabet of Ben Sira and Josephus (Ant. 8:165–73), we read, "Solomon, know that she (the Queen) was come, arose and sat down in the palace of glass. When the Queen of Sheba saw it, she thought that the glass floor was water, and so, in crossing over lifted up her garments’’.
     
    Another important thing to note, is that there is no evidence that the Queen of Sheba even existed, when analysing the archaeological evidence found from the excavations done on the ancient Sabaic Awwām Temple, or which is also known as, ‘’Maḥram Bilqīs’’ in Sirwah, Yemen, and the Almaqah temple of Meqaber Gacewa near Wuqro (Tigray, Ethiopia). To make the claim that Queen Sheba did exist, but that the archaeologists could just not find any evidence of her, is a very weak claim to makee. First, the archaeologists found plenty of evidence of inscriptions from the ancient Sabean kingdom (from old stones) in Ethiopia and Yemen. Other than there being no evidence of the existence of Queen Sheba reigning from 950 B.C. (a time where she is thought to have reigned), there is also no mention (on any of the inscriptions found from these excavation sites) of any other female ruler existing during this period either. Two, both of these excavation sites, in Yemen and Ethiopia, were scanned by the use of terrestrial laser scanning and photogrammetry techniques. This allows for there to be high quality 3D data of the sites, thus, not allowing for any details to be missed.
     
    For the main resource on the archaeological findings from Yemen: https://dainst.org/en/-/archaologische-berichte-aus-dem-yemen?_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fdainst.org%2Fen%2Fweb%2Fguest%2Fpublikationen%2Freihen%3Fp_p_id%3Dcom_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI%26p_p_lifecycle%3D0%26p_p_state%3Dnormal%26p_p_mode%3Dview%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_cur%3D0%26p_r_p_resetCur%3Dfalse%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_assetEntryId%3D109077 and another source: https://dainst.org/en/-/epigraphische-forschungen-auf-der-arabischen-halbinsel?_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fdainst.org%2Fen%2Fweb%2Fguest%2Fpublikationen%2Freihen%3Fp_p_id%3Dcom_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI%26p_p_lifecycle%3D0%26p_p_state%3Dnormal%26p_p_mode%3Dview%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_cur%3D0%26p_r_p_resetCur%3Dfalse%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_assetEntryId%3D109363 and: https://dainst.org/en/web/guest/ergebnis/-/asset_publisher/NZrOgZ37QcYu/content/neuerscheinung-zora-7 and: https://dainst.org/en/-/hefte-zur-kulturgeschichte-des-jemen?_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fdainst.org%2Fen%2Fweb%2Fguest%2Fpublikationen%2Freihen%3Fp_p_id%3Dcom_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI%26p_p_lifecycle%3D0%26p_p_state%3Dnormal%26p_p_mode%3Dview%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_cur%3D0%26p_r_p_resetCur%3Dfalse%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_assetEntryId%3D110491 and: https://dainst.org/en/web/guest/ergebnis/-/asset_publisher/NZrOgZ37QcYu/content/3000-jahre-alter-tempel-im-reich-von-saba-jemen- and: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=61cbcc421ba74bb89d3ced5332298744
     
     
    The story of God holding a mountain over the Israelites, in order to frighten them. In Surah al-A’raf, ayāh 171, it says: “And [mention] when We raised the mountain above them as if it was a dark cloud and they were certain that it would fall upon them, [and Allāh said], "Take what We have given you with determination and remember what is in it that you might fear Allāh.”
     
    1. Allāh is trying to establish fear.
    2. He does this through the use of the mountain and;
    3. Reminds the Israelites about the Law, by saying to, “take what We have given you”.
     
    In the Jewish tract called the Abodah Sarah (a tract where the Jewish commentators turned this into a fanciful story of God holding the mountain over the people), we read that God "inverted THE HOLY MOUNTAIN ABOVE THEM like a pot, and said unto them, 'if YE RECEIVE THE LAW, well; but if not, THERE WILL YOUR GRAVE BE.'"
     
    The tafsīr of this ayāh: http://www.alim.org/library/quran/AlQuran-tafsir/TIK/7/171

     
    In Surah al-Hijr, through ayāh 16-18, it states that the devils plot to hear what is being said in heaven, and are then driven away by shooting stars (which are cast at them by the angels). The ayāt: “And We have placed within the heaven great stars and have beautified it for the observers. And We have protected it (heaven) from every devil expelled [from the mercy of Allah] except one who steals a hearing and is pursued by a clear burning flame (the shooting star)”.
     
    Many try and claim that Ibn Kathīr did not take a literal view concerning the shooting stars being thrown at the devils, but this is a false position to hold. Ibn Kathīr himself confirms that he takes a literal view, in his tafsīr, by saying: “Here, Mujahid and Qatadah said that Buruj big stars refers to the heavenly bodies. (I SAY): This is like the Ayah: (Blessed be He Who has placed the big stars in the heavens.) 25:61 `Atiyah Al-`Awfi said: "Buruj here refers to sentinel fortresses.'' He made the "shooting stars'' to guard it against the evil devils who try to listen to information conveyed at the highest heights. If any devil breaches it and advances hoping to listen, a clear "shooting star'' comes to him and destroys him. He may already have passed on whatever he heard before the fire hit him, to another devil below him; the latter will then take it to his friends among humans, as is stated in the Sahih.
     
    Explaining this Ayah, Al-Bukhari reported from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said: (When Allah decrees any matter in heaven, the angels beat their wings in submission to His Word, with a sound like a chain beating on a smooth rock.'') (`Ali and other subnarrators said, "The sound reaches them.'') "When the fright leaves their (angels') hearts, they (angels) are asked: `What did your Lord say' They respond: "The truth. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.' So those who hope to hear something listen, and they are standing one above the other.'' Sufyan the narrator described them with a gesture, spreading the fingers of his right hand and holding it in such a way that the fingers were above one another. "Sometimes the flaming fire hits one of these listeners before he is able to convey what he has heard to the one who is beneath him, and he is burned up, or sometimes the fire does not hit him until he has pit on to the one beneath him, so he brings it to the earth’’. Another similar verse is found in Surah al-Mulk, ayāh 5.
     
    These verses are simply a reconstruction of a Jewish fable preserved in the tractate of the Chagigah 16a, where it is says that: The demons "listen from behind a curtain" (shom’in me ‘ahoray ha- pargod), and; that they then whisper a combination of “true and false prophecies to the kahana” (soothsayers/fortune tellers).
     
    Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eZQH0xCYiaAC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=hagigah+listen+from+behind+a+curtain&source=bl&ots=7irLpiW0kY&sig=ACfU3U3gnuwx4O2oDlR1Wl_-dI8VSrfyfQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiAoJyv5urmAhWMXsAKHbtuBCsQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=hagigah%20listen%20from%20behind%20a%20curtain&f=false and: https://www.sefaria.org/Chagigah.16a.6?with=Commentary&lang=bi and: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/114820/he-went-to-a-fortune-teller-then-he-repented-but-he-found-that-what-the-fortune-teller-told-him-is-coming-true-day-after-day

     
    In Surah Maryam, ayāh 29-30 we find the fable which mentions Jesus and Mary, where Jesus speaks whilst in the cradle. In the 29’th ayāh, it says: “So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we SPEAK to one who is in the CRADLE a child?". Then in the next ayāh, 30, it says: “[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet”. In, “The Arabic Gospel of the Infancy of the Saviour”, an apocryphal text that was produced as early as the 6’th century (some historians claim that the text comes from the 5’th century), on page 405, it says: “He has said that JESUS SPOKE, and, indeed, when He was lying in His CRADLE said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world”.
     
    The reasons to why this story is deemed to be historically unreliable: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/why-shouldnt-we-trust-the-non-canonical-arabic-gospel-of-the-infancy-of-the-savior/

     
    In Surah Ali ‘Imran, we find the fable of Jesus giving life to birds that are made out of clay. In the 49’th ayāh of this Surah, it says: “And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers”. This story is also repeated in Surah al-Ma’idah, ayāh 110, where it mentions: “... and when you (Jesus) DESIGNED FROM CLAY [what was] LIKE THE FORM OF A BIRD with My permission, then you breathed into it, and IT BECAME A BIRD with My permission”. We find the origins of this fable in the apocryphal text, “The Infancy Gospel of Thomas”, on the second chapter, where it says: “He then made some soft MUD and FASHIONED TWELVE SPARROWS from it”, and in the same second chapter, “But Jesus clapped his hands and cried to the SPARROWS, “Be gone!” And THE SPARROWS TOOK FLIGHT and went off, chirping”. Dating this text, Bart Ehrman’s book, called “Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make It Into the New Testament” states, “Most scholars believe that such “infancy Gospels” began to circulate during the first half of the second century”.
     
    Link (page 58): https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/319098485-lost-scriptures-books-that-did-not-make-it-into-the-new-testament-bart-d-ehrman-pdf.pdf

     
    In Surah Maryam, we find the fable of Mary being in a, “remote place”, where she is then led to go to a, “palm tree” (for support), because of the pain of bearing Jesus in the heat of the desert. This also resulted in her to feel hungry and thirsty because of the journey. In the 22’nd ayāh, it says: “So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him TO A REMOTE PLACE”, and in the 23’rd ayāh, “And THE PAINS OF CHILD BIRTH DROVE HER TO THE TRUNK OF A PALM TREE and was in oblivion, forgotten”, and in the 24’th ayah, “But he (Jesus) CALLED HER FROM BELOW HER, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided BENEATH YOU A STREAM”, and in the 25’th ayah, “And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; IT WILL DROP UPON YOU RIPE, FRESH DATES”. In the, “Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew”, it says: “... their JOURNEY, while they were walking”, and, “Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it FULL OF FRUIT”, but then Mary also says, “I am thinking more of the want of WATER”, and then Jesus says, “Then the child Jesus, with a joyful countenance, REPOSING IN THE BOSOM OF HIS MOTHER, said to the palm: O tree, bend thy branches, and REFRESH MY MOTHER WITH THY FRUIT”. Then after, Jesus says, “... OPEN FROM THY ROOTS A VEIN OF WATER“ (referring to the stream of water appearing at the bottom of the palm-tree, where Mary would have been sitting/kneeling on as she would not have had energy to be upright), Jesus then says, “... and at ITS ROOTS there began to COME FORTH A SPRING OF WATER,”.
     
    Link (page 377, chapter 20. Page 662 on the pdf itself): https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Ante-Nicene-Fathers-VOL-8.pdf

     
    In Surah al-Kahf, we find the fable of a group of, “youth” that retreated to a, “cave” so that they can avoid persecution, and then slept there. They do this for, “300 hundred years and exceeded by nine”, so a total of 309 years. This is mentioned in Surah al-Kahf, ayāh 25, where it says: “And THEY REMAINED IN THEIR CAVE FOR 300 YEARS AND EXCEEDED BY NINE”. After Allāh supposedly provides us with the total amount of years that the group of youth sleep in the cave for, Allāh then weirdly goes on to say in the very next ayāh, the 26’th: “Say, "ALLĀH IS MOST KNOWING OF HOW LONG THEY REMAINED. HE HAS [KNOWLEDGE OF] THE UNSEEN OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH”. Does this mean that the youth did NOT sleep in the cave for 309 years, as this knowledge is of the, “unseen” which only Allāh knows of? If the youth did in fact sleep for a total of 309 years, then what was the point in Allāh initially disclosing the supposed total amount of years that the youth slept in the cave for, if it is best known by him anyway? If one was to say that Allāh is only reiterating his power of having witnessed this event himself, and that this does not take from the fact that the youth slept in the cave for a total of 309 years, this does not hold any weight. This is because in the 19’th ayāh one of the, “speakers” from amongst the youth questioned the other concerning how long they slept for, by saying, “How LONG have you REMAINED [here]?", and then solely BECAUSE OF THE WRONG ANSWER towards this question (from another person of the group) being, “They said, "We have remained a day or part of a day”, somebody else from the group then says, “They said, "Your LORD IS MOST KNOWING OF HOW LONG YOU REMAINED”. So how long did they actually sleep in the cave for? Did Allāh purposefully want to hide this, for whatever reason, by providing a false amount?

    Some other similarities between this fable and the ayāt found in Surah al-Kahf include the instance of when Allāh mentions in the 19’th ayāh of the Surah: “... So SEND ONE OF YOU with THIS SILVER COIN of yours TO THE CITY and let him look to which is the BEST OF FOOD and bring you provision from it and LET HIM BE CAUTIOUS”. This is similar to when the source of the Christian fable says, “Then they decide to SEND ONE of their number, Iamlikha (=Iamblichus), TO THE CITY in order to see if Decius has already returned and they give him some SMALL CHANGE to BUY BREAD”. Another striking similarity, is when the 10’th ayāh of the Surah says: “[Mention] when the youths retreated to the cave and said, "Our Lord, GRANT US FROM YOURSELF MERCY and prepare for us from our affair RIGHT GUIDANCE”, and the 13’th ayāh, where it says: “It is We who relate to you, [O Muhammad], their story in truth. Indeed, they were youths who BELIEVED IN THEIR LORD, and WE INCREASED THEM IN GUIDANCE”. Hence, they are believers in God, and prayed to God so that he can strengthen them and correct their affairs. In the Christian fable, these ayāt are mirrored when it says: “In the cave THEY PRAY TO GOD and GOD RAISES UP THEIR SPIRITS into heaven and sends a watcher to guard their bodies”.
     
    This story has its origins from a Christian fable that is known as the story of, “The Seven Sleepers of Ephesus”, and there are two early witnesses of this story, one that can be dated from early 6’th century, and the other from late 6’th century. In the book that Pieter W. Van der Horst wrote, called “Pious Long Sleepers in Greek, Jewish, and Christian Antiquity”, he says, “The first author to tell us the story of the Seven Sleepers is the Syrian bishop Jacob of Sarug (ca. 450-521), ALTHOUGH HE BASES HIMSELF UPON AN OLDER SOURCE. The other early witness of this story, Gregory of Tours (ca. 538-594), states that his knowledge of the story comes from a Syriac source”.
     
    Link (pages 14-15): http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/symposiums/13th/papers/Horst.pdf
     
    Interestingly enough, Ibn Kathir also says that he knows of an opinion that some used to hold that, '' (...that they may grow more in faith along with their (present) faith.) (48:4) There are other Ayat indicating the same thing. It has been mentioned that THEY WERE FOLLOWERS OF THE RELIGION OF AL-MASIH `ISA, `ISA BIN MARYAM, but Allah knows best''.
     
    Link to his tafsir on Surah al-Kahf, ayah 17: http://www.recitequran.com/en/tafsir/en.ibn-kathir/18:17
     



    As there are very clear similarities, if you want to argue that the Qur’ān is a, ‘furqān’ (the criterion of what is correct, and in this case the accuracies of the stories found in the Qur’an which are supposedly to be of divine origins) as Surah al-Furqān, ayah 1 says: ‘’Blessed is He who sent down the Criterion upon His Servant that he may be to the worlds a warner –‘’, then you need to prove that these Jewish and Christian fables and legends, those of which have been rejected by the majority of religious (Jewish and Christian) scholarship (and also non-religious secular scholarship), that these stories are indeed accurate and not mere fables and legends. You will also have to argue for how the misunderstanding of a Biblical verse which mentions the city, ‘’Ur’’, is not actually a misunderstanding and mistranslation of the Biblical verse in question (Genesis 15:7), and that therefore the story concerning Abraham being saved from a, ‘’fire’’ after he was placed within it on Nimrod’s orders, is actually an accurate story not based on any fable whatsoever. Two, if you want to argue that that the Qur’ān is a book that was brought to confirm the previous scriptures (as Surah al-Baqarah, ayah 97; Surah al-Ma’idah ayah 48; Surah Ali 'Imran, ayah 3; etc; says) and therefore it is understandable to why there would be remnants of these stories found within the Qur’ān, if this is the position that you want to hold, then again, you have the same issue of having to prove that these Jewish commentaries; and Christian fables, are directly of divine origins, or have come from some of the previous divine books that Allāh has revealed to mankind. Thus, a catch-22 situation.

    So is the Qur’ān really the, ‘’Muhaymin’’ as it claims to be?

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf. - nope, not anymore.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8998 - March 27, 2020, 03:53 AM

    Hello  A Muslim .........
    Brief introduction to why we should doubt the claim that the Qur’ān is of divine origins —
    evidences that show Muhammad frequented with Christians and Jews (this includes Muhammad listening to the People of the Book recite their scriptures), and evidences of plagiarism:


    The tafsīr of Surah al-Muddaththir, ayāh 25 by Al-Jalalayn, says: “this is nothing but the speech of humans’ similar to what they the idolaters had said ‘It is only a human that is teaching him’ Q. 16103”. But who is this ayāh specifically referring to? Ibn Abbas, in his tafsīr, tells us in the tafsīr of the same ayāh (25) in Surah al-Muddaththir: “(This) which Muhammad (pbuh) says, is (naught else than speech of mortal man) the speech of JABR and YASAR”. Now that we know their names, who were these two individuals? Al-Jalalayn tells us in his tafsīr of Surah An-Nahl, ayāh 103: “And verily wa-laqad is for confirmation We know that they say ‘It is only a human that is teaching him the Qur’ān’ — this was a CHRISTIAN BLACKSMITH whom THE PROPHET USED TO FREQUENT. God exalted be He says The tongue the language of him to whom they refer to whom they incline with the accusation that he is the one teaching him is foreign’; while this Qur’ān is in a clear Arabic tongue one of lucidity and clarity so how can a foreigner be teaching him?”. Here, it is clear that Muhammad would regularly go and see this Christian blacksmith.
     
    Links: https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=74&tAyahNo=25&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=74&tAyahNo=25&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=16&tAyahNo=103&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
     
    In Asbab al-Nuzul, in the tafsīr of Surah al-Al-Baqarah, ayāh 98, ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab is a witness to seeing Muhammad present at the study circles that the Jews would have about their Torah: “[2:98] (Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels...) [2:98]. Abu Bakr al-Asfahani informed us > al-Hafiz Abu'l Shaykh [al-Asfahani] > Abu Yahya al-Razi> Sahl ibn 'Uthman > ‘Ali ibn Mushir > Dawud > al-Sha'bi who said: “Said 'Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be well pleased with him: 'I used to go to the JEWS UPON THEIR STUDY OF THE TORAH and was amazed to see the CONFORMITY OF THE QUR’AN WITH THE TORAH and OF THE TORAH WITH THE QUR’AN. On one occasion they said: 'O 'Umar! We do not like anyone more than we like you'. I asked: 'And why is that?' They said: 'Because you come to us and mix with us'. I said: 'I come to you only because of my amazement at how the different parts of the Book of Allah strengthen each other, and how the Qur'an is in conformity with the Torah and how the Torah is in conformity with the Qur'an'. AS I WAS WITH THEM ONE DAY, ALLAH’S MESSENGER, Allah bless him and give him peace, PASSED BY BEHIND ME”.
     
    Link: https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=98&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
     

    Also in Asbab al-Nuzul, the tafsīr of Surah an-Nahl, ayāh 103, we find another piece of evidence that links the above-mentioned, ‘’blacksmith’’ to two individuals. This also shows us what Muhammad would do when in their presence: “(And We know well that they say: Only a man teacheth him. The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is outlandish…) [16:103]. Abu Nasr Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Muzakki > Abu ‘Abd Allah Muhammad ibn Hamdan al-Zahid > ‘Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-‘Aziz > Abu Hisham al-Rifa‘i > Ibn Fudayl >Husayn > ‘Abd Allah ibn Muslim who said: “We OWNED TWO CHRISTIAN YOUTHS from the people of ‘Ayn Tamr, ONE CALLED YASAR AND THE OTHER JABR. Their TRADE WAS MAKING SWORDS but THEY ALSO COULD READ THE SCRIPTURES IN THEIR OWN TONGUE. The MESSENGER OF ALLAH, Allah bless him and give him peace, USED TO PASS BY THEM AND LISTEN TO THEIR READING. As a result, the idolaters used to say: ‘He is being taught by them!’ To give them the lie, Allah, exalted is He, revealed (The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is outlandish, and this is clear Arabic speech)”.
     
    Link: https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=16&tAyahNo=103&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
     
     
    The different fables and legends that found themselves within the Qur’an:
     
    In Surah al-Ma’idah, ayāh 30-35, there is a story connected with Cain and Abel. It is in the 31’st ayāh, that it is related that after Cain had killed his brother: “Then Allah sent a crow searching in the ground to show him how to hide the disgrace of his brother. He said, "O woe to me! Have I failed to be like this crow and hide the body of my brother?" And he became of the regretful.” This fable has its origins in a Rabbinical work known as the, ‘Targum of Jonathan’. Pirke Rabbi Eliezer, in Chapter XXI, says, "Adam and his companion sat weeping and mourning for him (Abel), and did not know what to do with him, as burial was unknown to them. Then came a raven, whose companion was dead, took its body, scratched in the earth, and hid it before their eyes. Then said Adam, 'I shall do as this raven has done,' and at once be took Abel's corpse, dug in the earth and hid it”.
     
    This fable is also found in the Midrash Tanhuma-Yelammedenu. The English translation of it, is: “Midrash Tanhuma-Yelammedenu: An English Translation of Genesis and Exodus from the Printed Version of Tanhuma-Yelammedenu with an Introduction, Notes, and Indexes”.
     
    Link (page 33): https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WLOi9vWEzTEC&printsec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=Raven&f=false

     
    In several places of the Qur'ān the story is told of Abraham being cast into a fiery furnace by order of a king (whom some of the mufassirīn name as Nimrod), because of his refusal to worship idols. Ibn Abbas clearly identifies Nimrod in his tafsīr of Surah al-Anbīya, ayāh 52: ‘’(When he said unto his father) Azar (and his folk) Nimrod son of Canaan and his host: (What are these images unto which ye pay devotion) which you worship?’’. It is said in Surah al-Anbīya’, ayāh 69, that when Abraham was cast into the fire, Allāh said: “Allah said, "O fire, be coolness and safety upon Abraham”. The origins of this other fable is found in a Jewish book called the, ‘Midrash Rabba’. From the Torah, we learn that Abraham (before his entrance into the land of Canaan) resided in the city named, ‘’Ur’’ in the land of Chaldea; but that the God of the Torah brought him out of that city and took him to the, ‘’land of promise’’. Thus in Genesis 15:7, we read, "I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees’’. Ur being a city, was unknown to the ignorant Jewish author of the Midrash, this being a Jewish scribe named Jonathan Ben Uziel, who mistook the Hebrew word "Ur" for the Hebrew word which also means "fire.", thus mistakenly supporting the idea that the God of the Torah had delivered Abraham out of a fire.
     
    So, to explain the verse "I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees," a story was invented of Abraham being cast into fire by Nimrod, where he was then miraculously saved by God. This story was well known to the Arabian Jews of Muhammad's time. In the Midrash Rabba (also named as Genesis Rabbah), it is written, in Rabbah 38.13 by a first-century Jewish sage called R. Hiyya (Hiyya the Great) that, “this happened at the time when Nimrod cast Abraham into the oven of fire, because he would not worship the idols (fire; water; cloud; and wind) that leave was withheld from the fire to hurt him”. Therefore, this fable, based on a mistranslation and misunderstanding of the Biblical verse in question which mentions the word ‘Ur’, made itself into the Qur’ān as a verse, which instead of talking of a city, refers to a Jewish fable of Abraham being saved from an imaginative, ‘’fire’’. So how can the Qur’ān be of divine origins, when this verse is of the origins of a Jewish sage?
     
    To highlight other similarities with this:
     
    In Surah al-Anbīya’, ayāh 57, (with Abraham speaking): ‘’And [I swear] by Allah, I will surely PLAN AGAINST YOUR IDOLS after you have TURNED AND GONE AWAY”. In the Midrash Rabbah, it says: “Terah was a manufacturer of IDOLS. He ONCE WENT AWAY somewhere and left Abraham to sell them in his place”. In the next ayāh, 58, it says: “So he made them (idols) INTO FRAGMENTS, EXCEPT A LARGE ONE AMONG THEM, that they might return to it [and question]”. Again, in the Midrash Rabbah, it says: “So he took a stick, BROKE THEM, and put the stick IN THE HAND OF THE LARGEST”.
     
    Link to the tafsīr of Ibn Abbas: https://quranx.com/tafsirs/21.52 and: https://quranx.com/tafsirs/2.258

     
    We find a long story of Prophet Solomon and the Queen of Sheba in which it is stated that the former sent a letter to the Queen by a bird, inviting her to stop worshipping the sun and to only worship Allāh. The story goes on to say that the letter resulted in the determination of the Queen to visit Solomon. In Surah An-Naml, ayāh 44, (when she arrived at the palace of the King): ‘’She was told, "Enter the palace." But when she saw it, she thought it was a body of water and uncovered her shins [to wade through]. He said, "Indeed, it is a palace [whose floor is] made smooth with glass." She said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, and I submit with Solomon to Allah, Lord of the worlds."
     
    In the Targum Sheni (a commentary of the Book of Esther) 1:3, a Rabbinical work full of fables and mythical stories, practically the whole story as told by Muhammad, is found within it. In this Targum, which can be supplemented by details found in the Alphabet of Ben Sira and Josephus (Ant. 8:165–73), we read, "Solomon, know that she (the Queen) was come, arose and sat down in the palace of glass. When the Queen of Sheba saw it, she thought that the glass floor was water, and so, in crossing over lifted up her garments’’.
     
    Another important thing to note, is that there is no evidence that the Queen of Sheba even existed, when analysing the archaeological evidence found from the excavations done on the ancient Sabaic Awwām Temple, or which is also known as, ‘’Maḥram Bilqīs’’ in Sirwah, Yemen, and the Almaqah temple of Meqaber Gacewa near Wuqro (Tigray, Ethiopia). To make the claim that Queen Sheba did exist, but that the archaeologists could just not find any evidence of her, is a very weak claim to makee. First, the archaeologists found plenty of evidence of inscriptions from the ancient Sabean kingdom (from old stones) in Ethiopia and Yemen. Other than there being no evidence of the existence of Queen Sheba reigning from 950 B.C. (a time where she is thought to have reigned), there is also no mention (on any of the inscriptions found from these excavation sites) of any other female ruler existing during this period either. Two, both of these excavation sites, in Yemen and Ethiopia, were scanned by the use of terrestrial laser scanning and photogrammetry techniques. This allows for there to be high quality 3D data of the sites, thus, not allowing for any details to be missed.
     
    For the main resource on the archaeological findings from Yemen: https://dainst.org/en/-/archaologische-berichte-aus-dem-yemen?_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fdainst.org%2Fen%2Fweb%2Fguest%2Fpublikationen%2Freihen%3Fp_p_id%3Dcom_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI%26p_p_lifecycle%3D0%26p_p_state%3Dnormal%26p_p_mode%3Dview%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_cur%3D0%26p_r_p_resetCur%3Dfalse%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_assetEntryId%3D109077 and another source: https://dainst.org/en/-/epigraphische-forschungen-auf-der-arabischen-halbinsel?_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fdainst.org%2Fen%2Fweb%2Fguest%2Fpublikationen%2Freihen%3Fp_p_id%3Dcom_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI%26p_p_lifecycle%3D0%26p_p_state%3Dnormal%26p_p_mode%3Dview%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_cur%3D0%26p_r_p_resetCur%3Dfalse%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_assetEntryId%3D109363 and: https://dainst.org/en/web/guest/ergebnis/-/asset_publisher/NZrOgZ37QcYu/content/neuerscheinung-zora-7 and: https://dainst.org/en/-/hefte-zur-kulturgeschichte-des-jemen?_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fdainst.org%2Fen%2Fweb%2Fguest%2Fpublikationen%2Freihen%3Fp_p_id%3Dcom_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI%26p_p_lifecycle%3D0%26p_p_state%3Dnormal%26p_p_mode%3Dview%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_cur%3D0%26p_r_p_resetCur%3Dfalse%26_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_Oc8C5zUcIrVI_assetEntryId%3D110491 and: https://dainst.org/en/web/guest/ergebnis/-/asset_publisher/NZrOgZ37QcYu/content/3000-jahre-alter-tempel-im-reich-von-saba-jemen- and: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=61cbcc421ba74bb89d3ced5332298744
     
     
    The story of God holding a mountain over the Israelites, in order to frighten them. In Surah al-A’raf, ayāh 171, it says: “And [mention] when We raised the mountain above them as if it was a dark cloud and they were certain that it would fall upon them, [and Allāh said], "Take what We have given you with determination and remember what is in it that you might fear Allāh.”
     
    1. Allāh is trying to establish fear.
    2. He does this through the use of the mountain and;
    3. Reminds the Israelites about the Law, by saying to, “take what We have given you”.
     
    In the Jewish tract called the Abodah Sarah (a tract where the Jewish commentators turned this into a fanciful story of God holding the mountain over the people), we read that God "inverted THE HOLY MOUNTAIN ABOVE THEM like a pot, and said unto them, 'if YE RECEIVE THE LAW, well; but if not, THERE WILL YOUR GRAVE BE.'"
     
    The tafsīr of this ayāh: http://www.alim.org/library/quran/AlQuran-tafsir/TIK/7/171

     
    In Surah al-Hijr, through ayāh 16-18, it states that the devils plot to hear what is being said in heaven, and are then driven away by shooting stars (which are cast at them by the angels). The ayāt: “And We have placed within the heaven great stars and have beautified it for the observers. And We have protected it (heaven) from every devil expelled [from the mercy of Allah] except one who steals a hearing and is pursued by a clear burning flame (the shooting star)”.
     
    Many try and claim that Ibn Kathīr did not take a literal view concerning the shooting stars being thrown at the devils, but this is a false position to hold. Ibn Kathīr himself confirms that he takes a literal view, in his tafsīr, by saying: “Here, Mujahid and Qatadah said that Buruj big stars refers to the heavenly bodies. (I SAY): This is like the Ayah: (Blessed be He Who has placed the big stars in the heavens.) 25:61 `Atiyah Al-`Awfi said: "Buruj here refers to sentinel fortresses.'' He made the "shooting stars'' to guard it against the evil devils who try to listen to information conveyed at the highest heights. If any devil breaches it and advances hoping to listen, a clear "shooting star'' comes to him and destroys him. He may already have passed on whatever he heard before the fire hit him, to another devil below him; the latter will then take it to his friends among humans, as is stated in the Sahih.
     
    Explaining this Ayah, Al-Bukhari reported from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said: (When Allah decrees any matter in heaven, the angels beat their wings in submission to His Word, with a sound like a chain beating on a smooth rock.'') (`Ali and other subnarrators said, "The sound reaches them.'') "When the fright leaves their (angels') hearts, they (angels) are asked: `What did your Lord say' They respond: "The truth. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.' So those who hope to hear something listen, and they are standing one above the other.'' Sufyan the narrator described them with a gesture, spreading the fingers of his right hand and holding it in such a way that the fingers were above one another. "Sometimes the flaming fire hits one of these listeners before he is able to convey what he has heard to the one who is beneath him, and he is burned up, or sometimes the fire does not hit him until he has pit on to the one beneath him, so he brings it to the earth’’. Another similar verse is found in Surah al-Mulk, ayāh 5.
     
    These verses are simply a reconstruction of a Jewish fable preserved in the tractate of the Chagigah 16a, where it is says that: The demons "listen from behind a curtain" (shom’in me ‘ahoray ha- pargod), and;
    That they then whisper a combination of “true and false prophecies to the kahana” (soothsayers/fortune tellers).
     
    Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eZQH0xCYiaAC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=hagigah+listen+from+behind+a+curtain&source=bl&ots=7irLpiW0kY&sig=ACfU3U3gnuwx4O2oDlR1Wl_-dI8VSrfyfQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiAoJyv5urmAhWMXsAKHbtuBCsQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=hagigah%20listen%20from%20behind%20a%20curtain&f=false and: https://www.sefaria.org/Chagigah.16a.6?with=Commentary&lang=bi and: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/114820/he-went-to-a-fortune-teller-then-he-repented-but-he-found-that-what-the-fortune-teller-told-him-is-coming-true-day-after-day

     
    In Surah Maryam, ayāh 29-30 we find the fable which mentions Jesus and Mary, where Jesus speaks whilst in the cradle. In the 29’th ayāh, it says: “So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we SPEAK to one who is in the CRADLE a child?". Then in the next ayāh, 30, it says: “[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet”. In, “The Arabic Gospel of the Infancy of the Saviour”, an apocryphal text that was produced as early as the 6’th century (some historians claim that the text comes from the 5’th century), on page 405, it says: “He has said that JESUS SPOKE, and, indeed, when He was lying in His CRADLE said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world”.
     
    The reasons to why this story is deemed to be historically unreliable: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/why-shouldnt-we-trust-the-non-canonical-arabic-gospel-of-the-infancy-of-the-savior/

     
    In Surah Ali ‘Imran, we find the fable of Jesus giving life to birds that are made out of clay. In the 49’th ayāh of this Surah, it says: “And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers”. This story is also repeated in Surah al-Ma’idah, ayāh 110, where it mentions: “... and when you (Jesus) DESIGNED FROM CLAY [what was] LIKE THE FORM OF A BIRD with My permission, then you breathed into it, and IT BECAME A BIRD with My permission”. We find the origins of this fable in the apocryphal text, “The Infancy Gospel of Thomas”, on the second chapter, where it says: “He then made some soft MUD and FASHIONED TWELVE SPARROWS from it”, and in the same second chapter, “But Jesus clapped his hands and cried to the SPARROWS, “Be gone!” And THE SPARROWS TOOK FLIGHT and went off, chirping”. Dating this text, Bart Ehrman’s book, called “Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make It Into the New Testament” states, “Most scholars believe that such “infancy Gospels” began to circulate during the first half of the second century”.
     
    Link (page 58): https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/319098485-lost-scriptures-books-that-did-not-make-it-into-the-new-testament-bart-d-ehrman-pdf.pdf

     
    In Surah Maryam, we find the fable of Mary being in a, “remote place”, where she is then led to go to a, “palm tree” (for support), because of the pain of bearing Jesus in the heat of the desert. This also resulted in her to feel hungry and thirsty because of the journey. In the 22’nd ayāh, it says: “So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him TO A REMOTE PLACE”, and in the 23’rd ayāh, “And THE PAINS OF CHILD BIRTH DROVE HER TO THE TRUNK OF A PALM TREE and was in oblivion, forgotten”, and in the 24’th ayah, “But he (Jesus) CALLED HER FROM BELOW HER, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided BENEATH YOU A STREAM”, and in the 25’th ayah, “And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; IT WILL DROP UPON YOU RIPE, FRESH DATES”. In the, “Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew”, it says: “... their JOURNEY, while they were walking”, and, “Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it FULL OF FRUIT”, but then Mary also says, “I am thinking more of the want of WATER”, and then Jesus says, “Then the child Jesus, with a joyful countenance, REPOSING IN THE BOSOM OF HIS MOTHER, said to the palm: O tree, bend thy branches, and REFRESH MY MOTHER WITH THY FRUIT”. Then after, Jesus says, “... OPEN FROM THY ROOTS A VEIN OF WATER“ (referring to the stream of water appearing at the bottom of the palm-tree, where Mary would have been sitting/kneeling on as she would not have had energy to be upright), Jesus then says, “... and at ITS ROOTS there began to COME FORTH A SPRING OF WATER,”.
     
    Link (page 377, chapter 20. Page 662 on the pdf itself): https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Ante-Nicene-Fathers-VOL-8.pdf

     
    In Surah al-Kahf, we find the fable of a group of, “youth” that retreated to a, “cave” so that they can avoid persecution, and then slept there. They do this for, “300 hundred years and exceeded by nine”, so a total of 309 years. This is mentioned in Surah al-Kahf, ayāh 25, where it says: “And THEY REMAINED IN THEIR CAVE FOR 300 YEARS AND EXCEEDED BY NINE”. After Allāh supposedly provides us with the total amount of years that the group of youth sleep in the cave for, Allāh then weirdly goes on to say in the very next ayāh, the 26’th: “Say, "ALLĀH IS MOST KNOWING OF HOW LONG THEY REMAINED. HE HAS [KNOWLEDGE OF] THE UNSEEN OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH”. Does this mean that the youth did NOT sleep in the cave for 309 years, as this knowledge is of the, “unseen” which only Allāh knows of? If the youth did in fact sleep for a total of 309 years, then what was the point in Allāh initially disclosing the supposed total amount of years that the youth slept in the cave for, if it is best known by him anyway? If one was to say that Allāh is only reiterating his power of having witnessed this event himself, and that this does not take from the fact that the youth slept in the cave for a total of 309 years, this does not hold any weight. This is because in the 19’th ayāh one of the, “speakers” from amongst the youth questioned the other concerning how long they slept for, by saying, “How LONG have you REMAINED [here]?", and then solely BECAUSE OF THE WRONG ANSWER towards this question (from another person of the group) being, “They said, "We have remained a day or part of a day”, somebody else from the group then says, “They said, "Your LORD IS MOST KNOWING OF HOW LONG YOU REMAINED”. So how long did they actually sleep in the cave for? Did Allāh purposefully want to hide this, for whatever reason, by providing a false amount?

    Some other similarities between this fable and the ayāt found in Surah al-Kahf include the instance of when Allāh mentions in the 19’th ayāh of the Surah: “... So SEND ONE OF YOU with THIS SILVER COIN of yours TO THE CITY and let him look to which is the BEST OF FOOD and bring you provision from it and LET HIM BE CAUTIOUS”. This is similar to when the source of the Christian fable says, “Then they decide to SEND ONE of their number, Iamlikha (=Iamblichus), TO THE CITY in order to see if Decius has already returned and they give him some SMALL CHANGE to BUY BREAD”. Another striking similarity, is when the 10’th ayāh of the Surah says: “[Mention] when the youths retreated to the cave and said, "Our Lord, GRANT US FROM YOURSELF MERCY and prepare for us from our affair RIGHT GUIDANCE”, and the 13’th ayāh, where it says: “It is We who relate to you, [O Muhammad], their story in truth. Indeed, they were youths who BELIEVED IN THEIR LORD, and WE INCREASED THEM IN GUIDANCE”. Hence, they are believers in God, and prayed to God so that he can strengthen them and correct their affairs. In the Christian fable, these ayāt are mirrored when it says: “In the cave THEY PRAY TO GOD and GOD RAISES UP THEIR SPIRITS into heaven and sends a watcher to guard their bodies”.
     
    This story has its origins from a Christian fable that is known as the story of, “The Seven Sleepers of Ephesus”, and there are two early witnesses of this story, one that can be dated from early 6’th century, and the other from late 6’th century. In the book that Pieter W. Van der Horst wrote, called “Pious Long Sleepers in Greek, Jewish, and Christian Antiquity”, he says, “The first author to tell us the story of the Seven Sleepers is the Syrian bishop Jacob of Sarug (ca. 450-521), ALTHOUGH HE BASES HIMSELF UPON AN OLDER SOURCE. The other early witness of this story, Gregory of Tours (ca. 538-594), states that his knowledge of the story comes from a Syriac source”.
     
    Link (pages 14-15): http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/symposiums/13th/papers/Horst.pdf
     
    Interestingly enough, Ibn Kathir also says that he knows of an opinion that some used to hold that, '' (...that they may grow more in faith along with their (present) faith.) (48:4) There are other Ayat indicating the same thing. It has been mentioned that THEY WERE FOLLOWERS OF THE RELIGION OF AL-MASIH `ISA, `ISA BIN MARYAM, but Allah knows best''.
     
    Link to his tafsir on Surah al-Kahf, ayah 17: http://www.recitequran.com/en/tafsir/en.ibn-kathir/18:17
     



    As there are very clear similarities, if you want to argue that the Qur’ān is a, ‘furqān’ (the criterion of what is correct, and in this case the accuracies of the stories found in the Qur’an which are supposedly to be of divine origins) as Surah al-Furqān, ayah 1 says: ‘’Blessed is He who sent down the Criterion upon His Servant that he may be to the worlds a warner –‘’, then you need to prove that these Jewish and Christian fables and legends, those of which have been rejected by the majority of religious (Jewish and Christian) scholarship (and also non-religious secular scholarship), that these stories are indeed accurate and not mere fables and legends. You will also have to argue for how the misunderstanding of a Biblical verse which mentions the city, ‘’Ur’’, is not actually a misunderstanding and mistranslation of the Biblical verse in question (Genesis 15:7), and that therefore the story concerning Abraham being saved from a, ‘’fire’’ after he was placed within it on Nimrod’s orders, is actually an accurate story not based on any fable whatsoever. Two, if you want to argue that that the Qur’ān is a book that was brought to confirm the previous scriptures (as Surah al-Baqarah, ayah 97; Surah al-Ma’idah ayah 48; Surah Ali 'Imran, ayah 3; etc; says) and therefore it is understandable to why there would be remnants of these stories found within the Qur’ān, if this is the position that you want to hold, then again, you have the same issue of having to prove that these Jewish commentaries; and Christian fables, are directly of divine origins, or have come from some of the previous divine books that Allāh has revealed to mankind. Thus, a catch-22 situation.

    So is the Qur’ān really the, ‘’Muhaymin’’ as it claims to be?

    oh my goodness gracious ..  that is a looong post &  I will take some time to read and digest it .,  But but also.,     Looong time no see dear ABCZ Muslim..??,  and  I am very glad to read you again.,

    So I said this to you some four years ago..
    Quote
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=29957.msg850879#msg850879

    Hello ..A Muslim.. The Muslim... Yee Muslim.. Zee Muslim.. Vee Muslim  ..  How are you doing??

    you got that right.,  No one supports killing of Asad Shah and no one supported killing of  Salman Tasser.. The Governor of Punjab Pakistan., A Muslim.

    but Praise Allah.. Allah hoo Akbaaar .. It was all allah will ., pre-written premeditated., predetermined .,  we all just messengers and that goes to killers and murderers  . those rogues of Islam also   just messengers of Islam  carrying on the message of allaha.........

     do you remember  that you & me   had quite a bit of chit here dear A Muslim?., And I am so glad to see you again., Hope your near & dear are safe from this dreaded infection....

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8999 - March 27, 2020, 02:31 PM

    Draft text: Arabia and the Great Powers

    Arabia and the Late Antique East
    Greg Fisher, Independent scholar
    Philip Wood, The Aga Khan University (Institute for the Study of Muslim Civilizations)

    Once a niche subject, the history of pre-Islamic Arabia – a region spanning the Red
    Sea and the Gulf, the Peninsula, southern Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and the Sinai – is now
    an established part of the framework of late antique historiography. A period of
    intensive enquiry has provided us with a more complex view of the Arabian past,
    one that connects the history of the region and its inhabitants to the history of the
    Near East and the Roman and Persian empires.1 A plethora of methodologies and
    approaches are driving modern studies of the relationship between the inhabitants of
    pre-Islamic Arabia and their neighbours. Some enquiries remain rooted, for a range
    of reasons, in the Graeco-Roman and Syriac sources, leaving the later Persian and
    Arab-Islamic traditions to one side.2 Others seek to combine the pre-Islamic and
    Islamic traditions, although the lack of critical editions of key Arab-Islamic sources
    (in particular) has proven to be a serious obstacle.3 Some research focuses on
    archaeological, philological, and epigraphic evidence, either alone or as supplements
    to the different historical traditions.4 Other studies adopt a comparative-based
    methodology, in part to mitigate the limitations of the primary sources.

    https://www.academia.edu/42295994/Draft_text_Arabia_and_the_Great_Powers?email_work_card=thumbnail-desktop
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