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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8940 - February 04, 2020, 02:50 PM

    Quote
    YOU WOULD HAVE WRITTEN AT LEAST ONE POST that is good from her work  [...] TO ME YOUR PROBLEM WITH HER/HER WORK APPEARS TO BE PERSONAL  ..may be I am wrong..


    Things does not work like that. I judge Crone's work, especially from the fact that she is considered sceptic in the field. She was not as shows Badawi in my quote. You make something personal whereas it is not.Curious, that you does not get it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8941 - February 06, 2020, 11:25 AM

    Things does not work like that.

     Cheesy  no...noo.. noooooooooo...Historians, or scientists or any one with inquiring  mindset  also human beings.. they are NOT born saints., they  all have all those emotional qualities and behavioral properties such as anger, happiness, laziness, ego etc..etc dear Altara ., Different people may control them in different level when they are expressing their personalities  but every human being will have those qualities.. You and me are no exception to that rule..  so such highlighted things do work like that around human beings Cheesy

    Quote
    I judge Crone's work, especially from the fact that she is considered sceptic in the field. She was not as shows Badawi in my quote. You make something personal whereas it is not.Curious, that you does not get it.

    Nope.. nope.. YOU ARE NOT JUDGING HER WORK., you are judging her personality that too because someone else (other historians) consider her/her work as skeptic in the field

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8942 - February 10, 2020, 01:13 PM

    Damn you.,   you add more questions with your answers.. Oh well.,  that is the way discussions go on a tough subject  but  let me first read that François Déroche's Qur'ans of the Umayyads

     http://data.nur.nu/Kutub/English/Qurans-of-the-Umayyads-A-First-Overview_by-Deroche_Brill.pdf


     well I am reading that François Déroche.. here and there ., So in that page 12 of that review he give a reference of a fascinating guy from Russia..

     –87 ....E. Z. Rezvan, On the dating of an“ʿUthmanic Qurʾan” from Saint Peters burg.,  ., ManuscriptaOrientalia6–3[September2000],pp.19–22) ..

    And I casually went through E. Z. Rezvan's , work as he published a paper on Islam and Russia .

    THE  QUR’ĀN  AND  POWER  IN  RUSSIA. PDF   By E. Rezvan

    So let me put some of his work on Early Quran/Quran manuscripts    you can see him in these tubes
    Quote


    Glimpses into history: 5 ancient Koranic manuscripts in Russia by   By E. Rezvan

    and many of his publications on early Quran manuscripts  that are there  in and around Russia can be read from
     
    http://lib.kunstkamera.ru/rubrikator/02/978-5-88431-236-4/

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8943 - February 11, 2020, 05:38 PM

    Petra Sijpelstijn on the slow and rapid introduction of Arabic in the administration throughout the empire:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da9D1BwJMgY&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8944 - February 20, 2020, 08:43 PM

    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630

    Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630

    What a mixture of armies there must have been around these crucial years in the Levant (and Egypt). It's not as if the Romans were back in the Levant governing steadily the province and extracting taxes. It is as if the Arabs took over where the Sassanids left. The Romans seem to have come, looked and turned back,

    Is there something in this theory that the Romans subcontracted to the Arabs the governance of the Levant by an agreement, not by a lost war?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8945 - February 20, 2020, 11:19 PM

    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630


    Source ?

    Quote
    The Romans seem to have come, looked and turned back,


    Well, at least this is what Heraclius did when he brought back the Cross to Jerusalem.

    Quote
    Is there something in this theory that the Romans subcontracted to the Arabs the governance of the Levant by an agreement, not by a lost war?


    The Roman clients might have been the ones to loose the war Smiley


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8946 - February 21, 2020, 02:31 PM

    Quote
    In 628, following the deposition of Khosrau II, Kavadh II made peace with Heraclius giving Palaestina Prima and the True Cross back to the Byzantines. The conquered city and the Holy Cross would remain in Sasanian hands until they were returned by Shahrbaraz. Shahrbaraz and his son Niketas, who converted to Christianity, would control Jerusalem until at least the late summer/early autumn of 629.[24] On March 21 630 Heraclius marched in triumph into Jerusalem with the True Cross.[25]

    fp

    from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_conquest_of_Jerusalem
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8947 - February 22, 2020, 12:49 PM

    mundi puts out something from uncle wiki

    fp

    from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_conquest_of_Jerusalem

    Quote
    In 628, following the deposition of Khosrau II, Kavadh II made peace with Heraclius giving Palaestina Prima and the True Cross back to the Byzantines. The conquered city and the Holy Cross would remain in Sasanian hands until they were returned by Shahrbaraz. Shahrbaraz and his son Niketas, who converted to Christianity, would control Jerusalem until at least the late summer/early autumn of 629.[24] On March 21 630 Heraclius marched in triumph into Jerusalem with the True Cross.[25]


    mundi  wiki is just for startup...and one must be careful to take that as true history from what people have written at wiki  specially when it comes to history unlike science subjects

    let us not take what these guys wrote

    Quote
    Walter Emil Kaegi (2003). Heraclius, Emperor of Byzantium. Cambridge University Press. pp. 185, 189. ISBN 9780521814591. Retrieved 12 March 2014.

     Michael H. Dodgeon, Samuel N. C. Lieu, eds. (2002). The Roman Eastern Frontier and the Persian Wars Ad 363-628, Part 2. Taylor & Francis. pp. 227–228.


    on their face value.. in fact names like  Shahrbaraz ....Niketas..... itself is questionable... they are NOT original names.. they are titles., like "MUHAMMAD" but this


    Byzantine and Sassanid empires and their vassals at the beginning of 7th century CE. Based on the http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:East-Hem_600ad.jpg by User:Talessman

    geographical picture from your wiki link is very useful one

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8948 - February 22, 2020, 05:16 PM

    Yeez,

    So what do you correct in my timeline?
    Were Sassanids only removed in 629 or not?
    Did Heraclius only enter Jerusalem in 630 or not?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8949 - February 22, 2020, 05:28 PM

    Yeez,

    So what do you correct in my timeline?
    Were Sassanids only removed in 629 or not?
    Did Heraclius only enter Jerusalem in 630 or not?

    OOps .. where is the timeline in your post and what timeline are we talking dear mundi...

    well there are many holes in the stories that are floating on Heraclius and Sassanids.,   but I am not sure that is anything to do with POLITICAL ISLAM that was propagated., and you can see that kind of Islam in this folder..  which actually gives you time line of Islam

    Chronological History of  Islam 

    and and I was not correcting anything but telling the reader to question   these words.. the names of persons  in wiki

    Quote
    ........Sasanian hands until they were returned by Shahrbaraz. Shahrbaraz and his son Niketas, who converted to Christianity,........


    anyways please point to your post of that timeline ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8950 - February 22, 2020, 05:56 PM

    My timeline

    Quote
    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630

    Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630


    Apparently Aqaba was " on its own" for 50 years before the Arabs took over...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8951 - February 22, 2020, 06:13 PM

    Quote
    My timeline

    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630

    Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630


    nah.... Cheesy that is NOT TIME LINE dear mundi.,  it is  just a date.. just a year., and  it is just a hand waving statement from 16th century Muslim historians  and copied by some western university professors  in 19th/20th century and  publish it as Islamic history  Cheesy  dear mundi ..

    what Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630?? which Muhammad?? where is Aqaba??  it is all the way down in the  Arabian Ocean

    Quote
    Apparently Aqaba was " on its own" for 50 years before the Arabs took over...

    That would be nice if you could get some link of Aqaba history from 5th to 7th century...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8952 - February 22, 2020, 08:10 PM

    Quote
    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630

    Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630


    I do realize that the Aqaba date is part of muslim tradition and thus not reliable. But the Jerusalem 630 date is afaik. Leaves a whole part of " arabia" not ruled by the Sassanides nor the Byzantines.

    If there is a kernel of truth in the Hijaz provenance of the "muslims", they must have passed through Aqaba, probably camped there for a few years. And then these dates become relevant.

    The dates bring us to 630's, that is what c14 dating gives us for the oldest manuscripts. Is Aqaba area the place where the scribal workshop was? Was the scribal committee located in that area?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8953 - Yesterday at 02:51 PM

    ............muslim .................
    ............. "muslims", .................

    The dates bring us to 630's, that is what c14 dating gives us for the oldest manuscripts. Is Aqaba area the place where the scribal workshop was? Was the scribal committee located in that area?

    well words like "Muslim.. Islam ..Muhammad.." and their  presence in Quran verses  in the present book as well as in so-called Old Quran manuscripts .......we have discussed  that in this folder itself dear mundi.,  anyways going back to your response

    I do realize that the Aqaba date is part of muslim tradition and thus not reliable. But the Jerusalem 630 date is afaik. Leaves a whole part of " arabia" not ruled by the Sassanides nor the Byzantines.

    yes that  seems to be true ., may be true but one must realize those vessel rulers/ mini kings of Arabian states(NOT WHOLE ARABIA) were partially under the control of  Sassanides or Byzantines...    Sassanides or Byzantines may not have directly ruled them., but these mini rulers of arabian states must have been in touch with either with Sassanides or Byzantines.  And i am not following the argument ..with reference to its relevance  to your time line
    Quote
    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630

    Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630

    and specially to  the word "MUHAMMAD"

    Quote
    If there is a kernel of truth in the Hijaz provenance of the "muslims", they must have passed through Aqaba, probably camped there for a few y ears. And then these dates become relevant.

     
    but why start the journey of Islam  from Hijaz provenance??

    when there is no trace of BIIG MECCA TOWN at that time,  why start present  Islam and present book Quran from Mecca... Hijaz provenance ?? I am going to sing Altara song.. 

    Mecca., Medina  Muhammad zam-zam?
    where is it?
    where in Quran?
     it is all zam zam water ..


    Quran itself is proof for that . Quran manuscripts  hardly says anything on "Mecca.. and even Muhammad and muslim.," ., it just uses those words  Actually I think those words were added in to Quran /Quran manuscripts at later times., 

    Quote
    The dates bring us to 630's, that is what c14 dating gives us for the oldest manuscripts. Is Aqaba the place where the scribal workshop was? Was the scribal committee located in that area?

    well C14 data has enough experimental error bars that these manuscripts could be from year 630  or 530 or even 690 ..  and   that  scribal workshop or the scribal committee could have been  located in near Jerusalem or in some other towns near by why Aqaba?  what is so special about that place?? I mean much of Quran comes from the stories of OT & NT ., the only thing Quran  does is  "QUESTION  NT STATEMENT THAT  "JESUS AS SON OF GOD" and it adds some words like "Muhammad and mecca" in few verses ..  these OT & NT stories could have been written anywhere ..

    who knows where those manuscripts were written.. Allah knows the best  dear mundi Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8954 - Yesterday at 03:21 PM

    So I like reading Quran., in the above post I said on Quran words like  "Mecca., Medina,  Muhammad, Muslim"
    Quote
    Quran manuscripts  hardly says anything on "Mecca.. and even Muhammad and muslim.," ., it just uses those words  in few verses., Actually I think those words were added in to Quran /Quran manuscripts at later times.

    So let me take a word from mundi post and read Quran verses
    I do realize that the Aqaba date is part of muslim ''

    If there is a kernel of truth in the Hijaz provenance of the "muslims", ...

     So the word is "Muslim"

    dear mundi Question is., that word  "MUSLIM".. was it there in any Arabic script  or in other languages before the year say 500? before the birth of classical Islam??   it is interesting to esquire about the origin of these words

    Quote
      Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was  upright , a muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists............. Aal-i-Imraan, . Verse #67)

    And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are  muslims,. ...........Al-Baqara. Verse #132


    So All the prophets that were born before the birth of Islam before the birth of "Muhammad" were Muslims....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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