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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8910 - January 28, 2020, 06:43 PM

    Carbon dating:

    Why exclude too early dates? Let's just accept the C14 dates. No reason not too.

    Fits with the evidence. If the book had been fluid or produced during the first semi-century of Arab reign, the Quran would have been much more explicit supportive of the rulers.

    Also scholars mention that later exegetes didnt understand parts of it. Again that wouldn't have happened if it was the product of the empire.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8911 - January 28, 2020, 06:51 PM

    Carbon dating:

    Why exclude too early dates? Let's just accept the C14 dates. No reason not too.


    I think my view would be that either there’s a general problem with reliability of the carbon dating or there isn’t. It doesn’t sound very scientific to me to arbitrarily decide to discount it if it gives the ‘wrong’ answers but accept it if it gives the ‘right’ answers. Then again I know very little about the science involved.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8912 - January 28, 2020, 07:51 PM

    Carbon dating:

    Corpus Coranicum is doing lots of work on it. It is reliable according to them:

    https://www.academia.edu/40203945/Youssef-Grob_Eva_Mira_Radiocarbon_14C_dating_of_Early_Islamic_documents_background_and_prospects
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8913 - January 28, 2020, 08:10 PM

    Thanks for the link.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8914 - January 28, 2020, 08:28 PM

    Yes. I get the impression that there’s a widespread view that at least some manuscripts date to around the time of Uthman, but I’m wondering if anyone has produced good arguments for this dating that don’t rely on circular reasoning.

    (Carbon dating doesn’t seem like a good argument to me if dates that seem ‘too early’ are already being excluded)


    Well, I do not think  that there’s a widespread view that at least some manuscripts date to around the time of Uthman. But scholars (Sinai, etc) work as if was the case, therefore validating the narrative. In fact the sole argument they have is the narrative. Since the narrative gives a date (Uthman) they work on the Quranic corpus as if it was true that "Uthman" did what says the narrative at those dates (before 660). Apart that, nobody have arguments to presenting to assert an earlier date than  Abd al Malik to the canonization of the Quranic corpus.  The sole argument is the narrative which drives the minds and and gets them to accept  that what it says is the historical truth.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8915 - January 28, 2020, 09:05 PM

    Altara,

    What about the argument "if Quran was written or modified before Malik's time, it would have been updated to be of more political use and 8th C exegetes would have understood what was there instead if needing to guess"?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8916 - January 28, 2020, 09:42 PM

    Altara,

    What about the argument "if Quran was written or modified before Malik's time, it would have been updated to be of more political use and 8th C exegetes would have understood what was there instead if needing to guess"?


    I'm not agree to this argument.Malik did not know the weight that this text was going to take in the future.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8917 - January 28, 2020, 10:27 PM

    Well, I do not think  that there’s a widespread view that at least some manuscripts date to around the time of Uthman.


    OK, fair enough.

    Quote
    But scholars (Sinai, etc) work as if was the case, therefore validating the narrative. In fact the sole argument they have is the narrative.


    I may have got a false impression of a consensus about manuscript dates because of this. It’s all part of what makes the field confusing for the non-expert.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8918 - January 28, 2020, 11:10 PM

    Yes, this specific topic is complicated.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8919 - January 29, 2020, 06:32 AM

    Quote
    OK, fair enough.

    I may have got a false impression of a consensus about manuscript dates because of this. It’s all part of what makes the field confusing for the non-expert.

    Yes, this specific topic is complicated.


    why Non-experts? experts  in the field working in educational institutes  also pretty much useless ., in fact  because of their half knowledge  they are more useless than non-experts.,  Apart from errors in  bars of carbon dating of these early Quran manuscripts., what actually is there in it also a problem ..


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8920 - January 31, 2020, 02:54 PM


    2/ Arab leaders whose I do not know the real names (I'm not H.G. Wells). Exemplars (in Quranic "texts" form, not codex) have probably be given to them, in any case they knew texts existed arguably by literati around them who (I think...) accompanied them in their governance. I think here to the Arabs arrived to Jerusalem in 637, those around the amir of al Hira, Ali, and around Zubayr. The Quranic texts are not Christians, none Christians would have built on the Temple Mount.
    3/Nope.

    So .. Altara gave some answer to the pont -1.. Now let me question him on that 2nd point.. So he says .. let me re-post that again in pointers..


    2/ .........................
    Arab leaders whose I do not know the real names (I'm not H.G. Wells). Exemplars (in Quranic "texts" form, not codex) have probably be given to them, in any case they knew texts existed arguably by literati around them who (I think...) accompanied them in their governance.

    well no one knows those Caliphs/Arab leaders.. or may be THEY WERE NOT EVEN ARABS    but leading Arab folks .. who knows? allah knows the best ..  what does those highlighted words mean?? . What is/are  exemplars in your view?   Are you talking about these   Quranic manuscripts/texts/ Surahs/chapters .. whatever .. that were found here and there around present Arabia...Russia... Sana... or Turkey as exemplars??

    Quote
    Alatra Point2:   I think here to the Arabs arrived to Jerusalem in 637, those around the amir of al Hira, Ali, and around Zubayr.

    2.The Quranic texts are not FROM Christians,

    3).  none Christians would have built on the Temple Mount.

     
    Well I am not getting the zest of your above statement .. you mean to say

    1). Arabs who followed their leaders such as amir of al Hira, Ali, and   Zubayr arrived in Jerusalem in  the year 637??

    and

    2). Quranic texts are not FROM Christians  .... why not? .. they may be Arbas but could be A sect of Christians .... but happened to be Arabs., they seem to be very familiar with OT & NT . what direct/indircet proof you have to say that?  I agree whole Quran can not be from Arab Christians .. but parts of it could have come from Christians....

    3). none Christians would have built on the Temple Mount. ....  what does that mean?  you mean Christians could have not built temple mount??  .. that is OK .. May be they moved out of Christianity in to new faith....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8921 - January 31, 2020, 05:54 PM

    Well this is nothing to with any one's post  but  this is about this Islamic historian  Dr.Joseph Lumbard  that you see in the you tube link

    Quote

    Very Smart guy high school drop out Americans acting as Historian after a college degree from zillion colleges you have in AMRIKA .. anyways Altara posted something on him
    Born and raised in Washington D.C., Lumbard was brought up within the Episcopal Church, serving as an altar boy. In his teenage years he lost interest and he was introduced to Islam when a sophomore at George Washington University. He converted to Islam a year and a half later.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_E._B._Lumbard

    My interest here is NOT what he is and what he was and what his education/degree/ professorships etc etc... are but my interest in Quran and what he says in that 2 you tube is ., taht he translated worked on Quran which he thinks is the bets translation and the Pdf file of that Quran translation he is talking in the tube  I added it here in this post
     
     
    So that is the book .. that dr. historian Joseph Lumbard  is saying in that video .. HE SAYS IS THE BEST TRANSLATION.. I read Quran all the time so casually read that book ., Amazon jungle .. jingles this about that book

    Quote
    An accessible and accurate translation of the Quran that offers a rigorous analysis of its theological, metaphysical, historical, and geographical teachings and backgrounds, and includes extensive study notes, special introductions by experts in the field, and is edited by a top modern Islamic scholar, respected in both the West and the Islamic world.

    Drawn from a wide range of traditional Islamic commentaries, including Sunni and Shia sources, and from legal, theological, and mystical texts, The Study Quran conveys the enduring spiritual power of the Quran and offers a thorough scholarly understanding of this holy text.

    Beautifully packaged with a rich, attractive two-color layout, this magnificent volume includes essays by 15 contributors, maps, useful notes and annotations in an easy-to-read two-column format, a timeline of historical events, and helpful indices. With The Study Quran, both scholars and lay readers can explore the deeper spiritual meaning of the Quran, examine the grammar of difficult sections, and explore legal and ritual teachings, ethics, theology, sacred history, and the importance of various passages in Muslim life.

    With an introduction by its general editor, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, here is a nearly 2,000-page, continuous discussion of the entire Quran that provides a comprehensive picture of how this sacred work has been read by Muslims for over 1,400 years.

    in fact I wrote about dr,  Seyyed Hossein Nasr many times in this forum itself.. Great guy retired .. It is very unfortunate he would have been great Physicist instead he became Islamic preacher/historian.. whatever.. So in the next post let me add some nuggets from that book  because it is Qur'anic studies today by me.. I am reading Quran upside down inside out .. Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8922 - January 31, 2020, 07:51 PM

    Quote
    well no one knows those Caliphs/Arab leaders.. or may be THEY WERE NOT EVEN ARABS    but leading Arab folks .. who knows? allah knows the best ..


    They were. There is no  scientific reasons to think otherwise.

    Quote
    what does those highlighted words mean?? . What is/are  exemplars in your view?


    Exemplars is the word used to designate the "things" from which the scribes of all the earliest manuscripts have copied the Quranic corpus.The "things" could have been in papyri or old parchments.So before these earliest manuscripts there was necessarily something which is lost now.

    Quote
    Are you talking about these   Quranic manuscripts/texts/ Surahs/chapters .. whatever .. that were found here and there around present Arabia...Russia... Sana... or Turkey as exemplars??


    Therefore nope.

    Quote
    Well I am not getting the zest of your above statement .. you mean to say
    1). Arabs who followed their leaders such as amir of al Hira, Ali, and   Zubayr arrived in Jerusalem in  the year 637??

    Arab leaders whose I do not know the real names (I'm not H.G. Wells). Exemplars (in Quranic "texts" form, not codex) have probably be given to them, in any case they  (leaders) knew texts existed arguably by literati around them who (I think...) accompanied them in their governance. I think here to the Arabs (leaders and   literati) arrived to Jerusalem in 637, those (literati) around the amir of al Hira, Ali, and  those ( literati) around Zubayr.  Those  literati were the informants of the leaders and (possibly...) the leaders  were  literati themselves (possibly Ali).
    Quote
    Quranic texts are not FROM Christians  .... why not? .. they may be Arabs but could be A sect of Christians .... but happened to be Arabs., they seem to be very familiar with OT & NT . what direct/indirect proof you have to say that?.  I agree whole Quran can not be from Arab Christians .. but parts of it could have come from Christians...

    What is Christianity is clear since at least the 4th c.. Those who reject Nicaea (including Arians) are rejected from Christianity: they are not "Christians". One have no trace of "A sect of Christians" which would tell what says the Quran about Jesus : the Word of God fortified by his Spirit. That simply does not exists in any of the heresies described.
    Quote
    but parts of it could have come from Christians....


    Yes/no : Jesus : the Word of God. But, Christianity deduces from this the rationale : Jesus is then God. But the Quran do not.Yet it says that Jesus is the Word Of God  but he does not say the rationale articulation : then Jesus is God.
    Therefore no.

    Quote
    3). none Christians would have built on the Temple Mount. ....  what does that mean?  you mean Christians could have not built temple mount??  .. that is OK .. May be they moved out of Christianity in to new faith....


    Highly implausible, one does not move from Christianity to the contrary of it (in building on the Temple Mount.) in one week.

    The Quranic texts are not Christians, none Christians would have built on the Temple Mount.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8923 - February 01, 2020, 08:51 AM

    Quote
    What is Christianity is clear since at least the 4th c.. Those who reject Nicaea (including Arians) are rejected from Christianity: they are not "Christians".

    Arians built churches, had church hierarchies, translated the bible into Gothic. I don’t see how they can be defined (by us) as not Christian.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8924 - February 01, 2020, 11:19 AM

    It's anachronistic. In that case all groups who hold Jesus as important in the divine economy are Christians (Gnostics, Manicheans, etc).
    Dye do the same mistake in Q 19. He considers that Q 19-1-33 is Christian. He's wrong. Christianity (Chalcedonians, Monophysites, Nestorians) has very clear dogmas:  Jesus is the Son of God : as such he is God. in Q 19-1-33 Jesus is a prophet.
    Dye will say: "I never said that" . The issue is that he insists more on what brings closer the passage to Christianity what separates it from. Now, this is precisely the nature of Jesus which separates (among other things) what says the Quran from the Christians dogmas.

    Quote
    Q 19:1-63*[ less 34-40] is a text which can be described as almost Christian, or even as Christian: in fact, it is unclear how it could be possible to be closer to Christianity, except by simply asserting some specific Christian dogmas – something the text does not do, of course. All the details of the text have their origins in written, liturgical or popular Christian traditions (more on this
    below), and can be acknowledged by Christians. It is therefore appropriate to speak here of a “text of convergence”.13 Moreover, with its stanzas, refrain, and alternation of narration and dialogues, this text looks like a well-known literary genre in Syriac religious literature: the soghitha, a dialogue poem involving Biblical or prophetic characters [...]

    Let us look indeed at the profile of the author of Q 19:1-63*.64 [ less 34-40]
    1) He is familiar with Luke 1 and related traditions (compare Luke 1:13 and Q 19:3-4; Luke
    1:13-22 and Q 19:7-11;65 Luke 1:28-38 and Q 19:17-21).
    2) He has an intimate knowledge of the traditions related to the Kathisma church –
    including the Protoevangelium of James and the palm miracle – and he presupposes the
    connection between these independent traditions. He knows, one way or the other, the
    Lection of Jeremiah, a text which was clearly not widespread outside the Hagiopolite
    communities.
    3) He is familiar with other aspects of the Jerusalem Marian liturgy and with the Dormition
    narratives. In fact, relying on the network of subtexts constituted by the Hagiopolite liturgy
    is the best explanation for most of the content of Q 19-1-33*.
    4) He follows a Christian usage in composing a section on Zachariah and John the Baptist as
    a preparation for the section on Mary and Jesus, following a Christian usage. Besides, the
    striking parallels between both sections (2-15 and 16-33) [see Annex 2, pp. 31-32] suggest
    that Q 19:1-33 is not the shortcoming of a complex editorial process, but a text with a
    striking unity, and whose organization follows a very precise intention. 5) He practices Christian typological exegesis. If we include the section on Abraham, we shall conclude that he also knows the “cycle of Abraham”.
    6) He has a remarkable homiletic talent, being able, for example, to merge episodes like the
    questioning and presentation of Jesus in the Temple in a unique narrative, using the literary
    device of Jesus speaking from the cradle. This implies that he knows at least some of such
    “cradle miracle” traditions, which are attested about Jesus and other prophets.
    7) He certainly has some knowledge of Aramaic (at worst indirect, but more probably
    direct). This is confirmed by a play on words made on the name of John the Baptist (19:13).
    The text reads wa-ḥanānan min ladunnā, “and a mercy from Us”. The word ḥanān (an hapax
    in the Qur’ān) does not mean here “grace”, or “tenderness”, but “mercy”, like in Hebrew or
    Aramaic. And note the name of John in Hebrew: Yoḥanān, i.e. Yo-ḥanān, “God is mercy”. The
    word for “mercy” is visible also in Aramaic Yuḥanan, but it is of course absent in the usual
    reading of John’s name in the Qur’ān, i.e. Yaḥyā, and it seems a bit far-fetched to look for it
    in the Christian reading of the same rasm, Yuḥannā. When the Qur’ān speaks of “mercy”
    elsewhere, and especially in this surah, it uses raḥma (Q 19:2, 21, 50, 53).
    8 ) Since the Jerusalem liturgy was in Greek, either he has a good command of Greek, or he
    belongs to a multilingual circle where some people can translate or explain the Greek
    liturgy to non-Greek speakers. Palestinian monasteries, famous for their multilingualism at
    this time, seem a good place for that.66
    9) He is familiar with the literary genre of the soghitha (another hint to his knowledge of
    Aramaic), and chooses to compose a kind of “Arabic soghitha”: the piece is, from a literary
    point of view, remarkable – this implies he was an Arab, or was perfectly bilingual.
    10) His knowledge of Christology is good enough to enable him to write a text of convergence which could work as a kind of biggest common Christological denominator. Were he less apt, he might have added unwelcome ideas for at least one of the parties involved (mu’minūn,67 Chalcedonians, Miaphysites, Nestorians). He is of course also familiar with some of the texts and convictions which circulated in the movement of the mu’minūn.
    11) Nothing suggests that he relies on oracular words of Muḥammad. Thanks to his intimate
    knowledge of Palestinian Marian liturgical traditions, he composes a dialogue hymn,
    following the model of hymns which were sung or recited in a (Christian) liturgical setting.
    It is highly unlikely, to say the least, that a scribe corresponding to such a profile could have
    belonged to the Meccan or Medinan circle of Muḥammad – or more generally to the Ḥiǧāz,
    except if we are ready to imagine Mecca or Medina as an Arabic Edessa, Antioch, or
    Jerusalem. The most likely explanation is that this author should be situated elsewhere than
    the Ḥiǧāz – most probably, indeed, not too far from Jerusalem, since he was extremely
    familiar with the Hagiopolite liturgy. Besides, such a skilful text requires various specific
    competencies, and we should wonder how they could have been acquired. The obvious
    explanation is that our author belongs to the class of the religious literati. In other words, he
    was certainly a Christian monk, who “converted” to the new faith, or put his pen at the
    service of the newcomers – certainly, therefore, after the conquests
    I agree here with Pohlmann (2012:185), except that I prefer to put converted between inverted commas, the confessional borders at this time looking too fuzzy to speak of “conversion” without any precision.


    Dye, The Qur’ān and its Hypertextuality in Light of Redaction Criticism

    https://www.academia.edu/12358270/The_Quran_and_its_Hypertextuality_in_Light_of_Redaction_Criticism

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8925 - February 01, 2020, 03:23 PM

    Why not just speak of Nicene and non-Nicene Christianity?

    Of course that leaves the question of when non-Nicene beliefs should stop being considered Christian (and when in fact they stopped being considered Christian by the people who held them).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8926 - February 01, 2020, 03:43 PM

    I consider that if one does not clearly delimit things for searching the origins of the Quranic corpus, one is lost. Why? Simply because, as one have seen, the Quranic text is ambiguous on key points that Dye shows (and many other points). What does mean this ambiguity? Is this  the result of the "editorial layers" hold by Dye et al., or is there another explication?
    That is why I consider that each affirmation of the Quranic corpus has to be checked (the most objectively possible) against what one very knows of the religious environment of the time (6-7th c.) and the religious (and non religious) history since the 1st c.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8927 - February 01, 2020, 06:59 PM

    19:1-63

    Dye says:

    Quote
    n other words, he
    was certainly a Christian monk, who “converted” to the new faith, or put his pen at the
    service of the newcomers – certainly, therefore, after the conquests


    I looked up in which very early manuscript these verses are attested. It is not in my pre 650 list. But the verses are attested in
    London, British Library: Or. 2165
    This manuscript is not carbon dated but it is expected to yield results equal to the very earliest manuscripts. But until it happens we don't really know.
    It would be a very interesting manuscript to date shedding light either on the carbon dating or Dye's hypothesis.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8928 - February 02, 2020, 02:05 AM

    The issue is that one does not know why one have only early fragments of the Quran as one knows it today. Is this because they were the state of the art at that time; the Quran was not complete then it is normal that one have what one considers as fragments regarding what one have today, or early fragments that one have are ones of complete Qurans.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8929 - February 02, 2020, 09:08 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/HistorianofIran/status/1223654825683976193
    Quote
    What counts as “caliphal history”? In the 8th cent, an Armenian priest named Łewond wrote a history. He started with the death of the Prophet Muḥammad and continued up to the reign of Hārūn al-Rashīd.


    A note on the manuscript:: https://mobile.twitter.com/HistorianofIran/status/1222935578540273664
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8930 - February 02, 2020, 12:43 PM

    On the Origin of Arabic Script

    Kamal Mansour
    Quote
    For the past two centuries, scholars have debated the origin of Arabic script, the youngest of the Semitic scripts. While one camp pointed to Nabatean as the sure ancestor, another favored Syriac instead. By examining each an­cestor visually and historically, one finds evidence for each point of view. Is it reasonable to insist on a single ancestor for Arabic script? The historical exam­ples of Proto­-Sinaitic and Ugaritic scripts demonstrate that a single script can be shown to have features amalgamated from more than one source. Detailed examination of the features of early Arabic script leads us to conclude that both Nabatean and Syriac strongly influenced its development. Finally, we demonstrate that particular details of cursive linking in Arabic script replicate analogous behavior in Syriac.


    https://www.academia.edu/41606953/On_the_Origin_of_Arabic_Script
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8931 - February 02, 2020, 04:36 PM

    My goodness  each response of Altara makes more questions.,  so  my questions are adding  and generating more questions... well confusion continues .. So questions will continue...
    Quote
    yeezevee: well no one knows those Caliphs/Arab leaders.. or may be THEY WERE NOT EVEN ARABS    but leading Arab folks .. who knows? allah knows the best ..

    They were. There is no  scientific reasons to think otherwise.

    They were what? Arabs?  Arab nomads?  Arab Christians/ Arab Christian sect leaders? with spoken Arabic language and familiar with OT/NT scripts/preaching and preachers?? and with no reading writing skills  of any language ??   and and living around present Syria/Israel/Palestine?

    And what scientific reason can you think that these leaders/caliphs were Actually Arabs as we don't even know their names., their  genealogy properly unless you go and read hadith.,??  after all   it all comes from hadith

    Quote
    [
    Quote
    u]yeezevee: [/u]what does those highlighted words mean?? . What is/are  exemplars in your view?

    Exemplars is the word used to designate the "things" from which the scribes of all the earliest manuscripts have copied the Quranic corpus.

    The "things" could have been in papyri or old parchments.So before these earliest manuscripts there was necessarily something which is lost now.

    my goodness that is loaded dear Alatar.. that response  itself should be a chapter or review for a publication....  so I am splitting the response again without numbering.. f I understand that word "Quranic corpus" correctly., it means
    Quote
    ......It is  an annotated linguistic resource which shows the Arabic grammar, syntax and morphology for each word in the Holy Quran. ........

    did I get that right? then you are talking about the present book Quran ..all 114 chapters.. right??

    and what does this  mean??        Alatra: So before these earliest manuscripts there was necessarily something which is lost now...

    you mean to say.,......   there was something else that is lost and from which these Old Quran manuscripts  that were found say Sana ...were written??

    Quote
    yeezevee: Are you talking about these   Quranic manuscripts/texts/ Surahs/chapters .. whatever .. that were found here and there around present Arabia...Russia... Sana... or Turkey as exemplars??

    Alatar: Therefore nope.

    Oh Ok...   Now I get why you are using that word exemplars  ...this exemplars  business that you are putting  in   into  the History of Islam appears to be new..   I never read any manuscript of early Islamic history that gives a role to these exemplars .,  I wonder did you read anything anywhere on that.

    Quote
    Alatra: Arab leaders whose I do not know the real names (I'm not H.G. Wells). Exemplars (in Quranic "texts" form, not codex) have probably be given to them, in any case they  (leaders) knew texts existed arguably by literati around them who (I think...) accompanied them in their governance. I think here to the Arabs (leaders and   literati) arrived to Jerusalem in 637, those (literati) around the amir of al Hira, Ali, and  those ( literati) around Zubayr.  Those  literati were the informants of the leaders and (possibly...) the leaders  were  literati themselves (possibly Ali).What is Christianity is clear since at least the 4th c.. Those who reject Nicaea (including Arians) are rejected from Christianity: they are not "Christians". One have no trace of "A sect of Christians" which would tell what says the Quran about Jesus : the Word of God fortified by his Spirit. That simply does not exists in any of the heresies described.
    Yes/no : Jesus : the Word of God. But, Christianity deduces from this the rationale : Jesus is then God. But the Quran do not.Yet it says that Jesus is the Word Of God  but he does not say the rationale articulation : then Jesus is God.
    Therefore no.

    Highly implausible, one does not move from Christianity to the contrary of it (in building on the Temple Mount.) in one week.

    The Quranic texts are not Christians, none Christians would have built on the Temple Mount.

    I have loads of questions on that., and pulling my hair to read and digest it carefully.. I will postpone asking you the question on that

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8932 - February 02, 2020, 07:07 PM

    1/Armed Arabs (637 Jerusalem)with spoken Arabic language.
    2/
    Quote
    and familiar with OT/NT scripts/preaching and preachers??

     Mainly yes.But there is no Bible in Arabic.It just so happens that they come in 637 Jerusalem not with the Arabic Bible, but with Quranic texts.
    3/
    Quote
    and with no reading writing skills  of any language ??

     literati have reading and writing skills arguably the leaders as well.
    4/ and and living around present Iraq/Syria/
    5/
    Quote
    And what scientific reason can you think that these leaders/caliphs were Actually Arabs

     One have the contemporary sources.
    6/
    Quote
    you mean to say.,......   there was something else that is lost and from which these Old Quran manuscripts  that were found say Sana ...were written??

     Yes.
    7/
    Quote
     I never read any manuscript of early Islamic history that gives a role to these exemplars


    "All these instances point in the same direction: the Codex Parisino-petropolitanus was transcribed from an older exemplar written in a more defective orthography that the five scribes were trying to improve while they were copying."
     François Déroche, Qurʾans of the Umayyads: A First Overview, Brill, 2014, p.32.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8933 - February 03, 2020, 01:13 PM

    1/Armed Arabs (637 Jerusalem)with spoken Arabic language.
    2/ Mainly yes.But there is no Bible in Arabic.It just so happens that they come in 637 Jerusalem not with the Arabic Bible, but with Quranic texts.
    3/ literati have reading and writing skills arguably the leaders as well.
    4/ and and living around present Iraq/Syria/
    5/  One have the contemporary sources.
    6/ Yes.
    Quote
    7/
    "All these instances point in the same direction: the Codex Parisino-petropolitanus was transcribed from an older exemplar written in a more defective orthography that the five scribes were trying to improve while they were copying."
     François Déroche, Qurʾans of the Umayyads: A First Overview, Brill, 2014, p.32.


    Damn you.,   you add more questions with your answers.. Oh well.,  that is the way discussions go on a tough subject  but  let me first read that François Déroche's Qur'ans of the Umayyads


    By FrançoisDéroche

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8934 - February 03, 2020, 08:04 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/emrane/status/1224386948799836161
    Quote
    I'm reading the collection, The Qurʾānic Pagans and Related Matters, published at the end of Patricia Crone's life  in 2016.

    All polemics aside, scarcely have I read such a heartfelt story of transformation by so serious a scholar!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8935 - February 03, 2020, 09:35 PM

    Quote
    "I had never appreciated how difficult it was for the Messenger to persuade his audience to go to war, and how much he himself insists on tit for tat, no more. The blood-curdling passages are mobilising rather than legislating."


    Crone has never doubted. She was a great believer.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8936 - February 03, 2020, 10:02 PM


    Quote
    "I had never appreciated how difficult it was for the Messenger to persuade his audience to go to war, and how much he himself insists on tit for tat, no more. The blood-curdling passages are mobilising rather than legislating."

    ...
    Crone has never doubted. She was a great believer.

    And dear Altara you always love to take a pot shot at her and her work... lol.........  When did she write that??


    Hanna Siurua and Abdalrahman Abulmajd around The Qur'anic Pagans

    Hanna_Siurua Collection of Dr. Crone's work

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8937 - February 03, 2020, 10:16 PM


      Hmm  Majid Daneshgar adds something there... let me put that here

    Quote
    Censored Manuscripts, Censored Intellects., Can We Trust the Past? by Majid Daneshgar

    .....................I decided to scrutinize Islamic textual sources that have been read by millions of Muslims throughout history. When studying the earliest Islamic traditions, it becomes clear that some collections of early material include the names of various figures whose role would gradually (but deliberately) be diminished, making them less important in subsequent Islamic traditions. For instance, consider several individuals close to Muḥammad: Zayd, his adopted son, whose name is mentioned in Sūrah 33 of the Qurʾān; Zayd’s son Usāmah2; Muḥammad’s daughter Zaynab and her husband Abū’l-ʿĀṣ3; and Muḥammad’s nursemaid Ḥalīmah. All of these figures, among others, were seemingly very important according to the earliest historical sources. Nonetheless, they appear as less important or even have aspects of their roles removed in later Muslim literature. We will return to this issue very soon, one that seems to have been the result of a process of marginalization through which the importance or influence of a figure or story is diminished or removed due to the ideology of a particular Islamic sect. Through such marginalization, an individual’s basic identity is retained in the sources, but their role is ignored or reduced.........................


    Indeed that statement goes to hadith and that even goes to Quran...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8938 - February 03, 2020, 11:06 PM

    Quote
    And dear Altara you always love to take a pot shot


    You're wrong. It is not my intention. I just break the legend of Crone as a sceptic scholar that the posts of Badawi,  quoting her, deny. She was a great believer.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8939 - February 04, 2020, 02:01 PM

     
    You're wrong. /It is not my intention.

    Nope I am NOT wrong., your intentions were/are very clear right from the beginning on her work., Otherwise .. YOU WOULD HAVE WRITTEN AT LEAST ONE POST   that is good from her work

    Quote
    I just break the legend of Crone as a sceptic scholar that the posts of Badawi,  quoting her, deny. She was a great believer.

    well every one .. every human is a legend in their own right  and yes she believed in what she wrote and she did not say she is  right everyone is wrong..., She fully allowed  her critics to air their opinions on her hypothesis of early Islam  ., And off course  as anyone else she did change her views on origins of Islam ., TO ME YOUR PROBLEM WITH HER/HER WORK APPEARS TO BE PERSONAL  ..may be I am wrong..

    anyway leaving her aside as she is no more , tell me about  Emran El-Badawi Tweet

    Quote
    Emran El-Badawi@emrane
    ·
    I'm reading the collection, The Qurʾānic Pagans and Related Matters, published at the end of Patricia Crone's life  in 2016. All polemics aside, scarcely have I read such a heartfelt story of transformation by so serious a scholar!

    Here are some of her stunning comments...

    what else he wrote on her apart from what you posted/quoted?? 
    Quote
    "I had never appreciated how difficult it was for the Messenger to persuade his audience to go to war, and how much he himself insists on tit for tat, no more. The blood-curdling passages are mobilising rather than legislating.

    "

    Anyway I have to read  those volumes that are collected by  that Hanna_Siurua before I comment on dr. Crone's work
    Hanna_Siurua Collection of Dr. Crone's work
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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