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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8880 - January 23, 2020, 08:43 PM

    Quote
    MVP :Hišām's ʾIbrāhām : Evidence for a Canonical Quranic Reading Based on the Rasm

    https://www.academia.edu/41712793/Hi%C5%A1a_ms_%CA%BEIbra_ha_m_Evidence_for_a_Canonical_Quranic_Reading_Based_on_the_Rasm


    Of course as there is no oral tradition (yawn...)

    I wonder did MVP say anything on those two  words ("Muhammad & Ahmad) in those 4 verses?
    well let me add this info here

    Quote
    https://corpuscoranicum.de/

    The oldest text witnesses on parchment
    To date, more than 60 fragments with a total of more than 2000 sheets (4000 pages) are known as testimonies to the Koran before 800. The database provides an overview of the oldest manuscripts for a verse. A transliteration of the Arabic text is displayed for many pages, including the difference to the print version of Cairo (1924).
    Records of more than 300 early Koran manuscripts are available
    more than 10,000 digitized pages from early Koran manuscripts
    Transliterations to more than 30 manuscripts
    Transliteration in TEI-XML
    Differences to the writing of the Cairo 1924 print edition


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8881 - January 23, 2020, 09:07 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/NaqadStudies/status/1220406287768395776
    Quote
    Who was Uzair عُزَيْر of Surah At-Tawba 9:30? Though Uzair is absent in the hadith, tafsir concludes that this Uzair was the Israelite prophet Ezra.

    But what does the cultural landscape of Late Antique Arabia have to say about a 'son of God' named Uzair? Let's have a look.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8882 - January 23, 2020, 09:12 PM

    Majied Robinson - (PhD Dissertation) Prosopographical Approaches to the Nasab Tradition: a Study of Marriage and Concubinage in the Tribe of Muhammad, 500-750 CE

    https://www.academia.edu/6773738/_PhD_Dissertation_Prosopographical_Approaches_to_the_Nasab_Tradition_a_Study_of_Marriage_and_Concubinage_in_the_Tribe_of_Muhammad_500-750_CE


    Majied Robinson - From Traders to Caliphs: Prosopography, Geography and the Marriages of Muhammad's Tribe

    https://www.academia.edu/38191333/From_Traders_to_Caliphs_Prosopography_Geography_and_the_Marriages_of_Muhammads_Tribe
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8883 - January 24, 2020, 12:00 AM



    Where the Jews have ever claimed that  "Uzayr" /Ezra  or whoever was the son of God? Nowhere. Why the Quran provide this information to its readers?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8884 - January 24, 2020, 11:43 AM

    Q1: Where the Jews have ever claimed that  "Uzayr" /Ezra  or whoever was the son of God?

    Ans: Nowhere.

    Q2:  Why the Quran provide this information to its readers?


    Two good Gedankenerfahrung questions and ONLY one answer from Altara

    I ask him why? where is the answer for the other Question dear Altara?? Yes Why Quranic authors   doesnot provide any info on that ? .. allah knows the best ..well a western mullah can explain that ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8885 - January 24, 2020, 12:24 PM

    It is not :

    Quote
    Why Quranic authors  does not provide any info on that ?


    But why Quranic authors provide this information to its readers?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8886 - January 24, 2020, 06:52 PM

    It is not :

    But why Quranic authors provide this information to its readers?

    Yes.. yes.. you are right Altara... let me phrase the questions again ., Give me the answer to theses questions..

    1). Where the Jews have claimed in their  scriptures that  "Uzayr" /Ezra  or whoever was the son of God?

    2). Were the Jews ever claimed anywhere in their scriptures that  "Uzayr" /Ezra  or whoever was the son of God?

    3). Then Why did the Quran provide this information to its readers?

    you answered Question 2 with  .. "nowhere"..  So answer 1 and 3. ..

    in fact that Jonathan Brown of Amriki   we were talking before did provide a decent explanation for one of those question., he did use few of his brain cells to answer that ., but I guess that was before his mind got Islamized/fossilized .. 

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8887 - January 24, 2020, 09:43 PM

    3/ That is the question  (haha, hahaha, hahahaha, hahahahaha, ad infinitum...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8888 - January 25, 2020, 10:35 AM

    Alex Myers - The Early Religious Beliefs of the Arabs of Palestine

    https://www.academia.edu/12666359/The_Early_Religious_Beliefs_of_the_Arabs_of_Palestine_Seminar_Paper_?auto=download
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8889 - January 25, 2020, 10:44 AM

    MVP thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1220812853495640066
    Quote
    Apparently some are still under the impression that the Birmingham Fragment (Mingana 1572a + Arabe 328c) is pre-Uthmanic copy of the Quran. This is impossible, despite its strikingly early C14 dating (568-645 CE with 95.4%) it is clearly a descendant of the Uthmanic text type.

  • Re: Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8890 - January 25, 2020, 10:48 AM

    Forthcoming thesis.

    Daniel Paul Neary - Doctrinal controversy and the Church economy of post-Chalcedon Palestine
    Quote
    The Fourth Ecumenical Council, held at Chalcedon in 451, began a period of extraordinary social and political crisis across the Eastern Mediterranean. In Palestine, as elsewhere, the centuries that followed were characterised by internecine conflict between local Christians, persisting until the collapse of Roman authority in the region during the reign of the emperor Heraclius. Since Edward Gibbon, historians have struggled to contextualise this debate, ostensibly an argument between proponents of rival, but also substantially identical, Christologies. This thesis considers what role socio-economic factors may have played in shaping contemporary accounts of the Council's fraught reception. It asks whether this may have distorted our understanding of a defining Late Antique debate. Chalcedon's reforms had wide-reaching consequences, not only for the Empire's official Christological policy, but for the broader structure of the 'Church economy,' the systems through which Christian institutions were financed and maintained, referred to at length in the Council's disciplinary canons. Its rulings held particular significance for Palestine in its status as the Christian 'Holy Land.' Here I explore this facet of Chalcedon's legacy, whilst considering how the language of doctrinal controversy generated by the Council served to frame episodes of material competition between rival communities of clerics and monks. The thesis offers a new reading of the texts produced by key actors in these confrontations, many of which have been historically neglected. It follows in the wake of recent attempts to analyse other religious conflicts of this period in light of contemporary social or political conditions, or through reference to 'networks' of influence and patronage. I apply this methodology to the study of the Palestinian partisans in the antagonism which followed Chalcedon, whilst also drawing upon the archaeologically-grounded study of material culture which has influenced so many other areas of early medieval history.



    This is now available to read: https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/288392/Thesis%20Final.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8891 - January 25, 2020, 11:39 AM



    MVP should stop to make history and stay in linguistics.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8892 - January 25, 2020, 12:14 PM

    Altara - how old do you think MVP’s ‘Uthmanic text type’ is?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8893 - January 25, 2020, 12:46 PM

    The date of the tradition, before 660. In fact the first problem is the radiocarbon C14 dates. It is it which pollutes the debate. They are not reliable.
    Nonetheless I consider that Arabs did have Quranic texts (not necessarily  codex) in 637 Jerusalem. What MVP shows is that each exemplar of the manuscripts have different idiosyncratic orthography. For me it means that many people had different exemplars and that  there wasn't necessarily an "‘Uthmanic text type". MVP thinks what he studies from the paradigm of this " ‘Uthmanic text type". He is incapable to think, therefore to work, otherwise, he only work from the tradition paradigm.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8894 - January 25, 2020, 11:05 PM

    ........  (haha, hahaha, hahahaha, hahahahaha, ad infinitum...)

    So you don't want to answer the question ... how about this one dear Altara?
    The date of the tradition, before 660. In fact the first problem is the radiocarbon C14 dates. It is it which pollutes the debate. They are not reliable.
    Quote
    Nonetheless I consider that Arabs did have Quranic texts (not necessarily  codex) in 637 Jerusalem.

    What MVP shows is that each exemplar of the manuscripts have different idiosyncratic orthography. For me it means that many people had different exemplars and that  there wasn't necessarily an "‘Uthmanic text type". MVP thinks what he studies from the paradigm of this " ‘Uthmanic text type". He is incapable to think, therefore to work, otherwise, he only work from the tradition paradigm.

    Questions on your moving statement and on the exemplars ...

    1),  who were these guys the exemplars and what was their relationship with Arabs/so-called Arabs?? ....for ex.. with those 4 Rashidun Caliphates of classical Islam?

    2.  these exemplars.. Were they related to eastern Roman empire ? for ex.. as vassal state of Eastern Roman empire in and around Arabia of that time ??  say,, year 550 to 700??

    3). Could you please explain a novice readers like me the difference between "Quranic texts" and "Codex"

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8895 - January 26, 2020, 12:57 AM

    1/those 4 Rashidun Caliphates of classical Islam are people who did not know they will be called in the 9th c.: Rashidun Caliphates. They were dressed like this by the 9th c narratives. The exemplars came necessarily from somewhere but not necessarily from those guys. I think they (Quranic texts, in papyri) were older than one thinks. What one have today are parchments. Less problematic to keep so later : early 8th c.

    2/ As Arabs are everywhere from Palestine to the Tigris, exemplars could have been produced everywhere. But one does not have them, one have copies which are the parchment manuscripts (Petropolitanus, Sanaa, etc.)

    3/ Quranic texts are "sura", passages, verses, paragraphs, possibly in papyri,  not reunited as a book (codex).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8896 - January 26, 2020, 01:29 PM

    1/those 4 Rashidun Caliphates of classical Islam are people who did not know they will be called in the 9th c.: Rashidun Caliphates. They were dressed like this by the 9th c narratives. The exemplars came necessarily from somewhere but not necessarily from those guys. I think they (Quranic texts, in papyri) were older than one thinks. What one have today are parchments. Less problematic to keep so later : early 8th c.

    2/ As Arabs are everywhere from Palestine to the Tigris, exemplars could have been produced everywhere. But one does not have them, one have copies which are the parchment manuscripts (Petropolitanus, Sanaa, etc.)

    3/ Quranic texts are "sura", passages, verses, paragraphs, possibly in papyri,  not reunited as a book (codex).


     Well Altara puts out loads of stuff that I and other readers need  to digest .. . I THINK THIS WAS ONLY THE POST FROM HIM (out of two thousand two hundred eighty seven post from him))THAT MAKES SOME PROGRESS AND SOME SENSE .. rest of them are da...da..da,,, ah Ha! type.,   Cheesy Cheesy .,  Well that is an important step as nothing in early Islamic history makes any sense and  some progress is made here in his response.. So let me redo his post point one here again
    1/those 4 Rashidun Caliphates of classical Islam are people who did not know they will be called in the 9th c.: Rashidun Caliphates. They were dressed like this by the 9th c narratives. The exemplars came necessarily from somewhere but not necessarily from those guys. I think they (Quranic texts, in papyri) were older than one thinks. What one have today are parchments. Less problematic to keep so later : early 8th c..

     
    well more questions.,   each of those three answers of Altara  are embedded in more questions.. So I am going to follow them up one by one... so let me take that point one and make three more parts out of it..
    Quote
    1/ !). 1). those 4 Rashidun Caliphates of classical Islam are people who did not know they will be called in the 9th c.: Rashidun Caliphates. They were dressed like this by the 9th c narratives.

    2). The exemplars came necessarily from somewhere but not necessarily from those guys.

    3). I think they (Quranic texts, in papyri) were older than one thinks. What one have today are parchments. Less problematic to keep so later : early 8th c.

    well I am going to hold on to those three points and continue to question you  on that answ... one of your post .. so do not hang up your boots and do not answer me with ah..ha..ha.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8897 - January 27, 2020, 03:34 PM

    Quote
    ...................so let me take that point one and make three more parts out of it..
    Quote
    1/ !). 1). those 4 Rashidun Caliphates of classical Islam are people who did not know they will be called in the 9th c.: Rashidun Caliphates. They were dressed like this by the 9th c narratives.

    2). The exemplars came necessarily from somewhere but not necessarily from those guys.

    3). I think they (Quranic texts, in papyri) were older than one thinks. What one have today are parchments. Less problematic to keep so later : early 8th c.

    well I am going to hold on to those three points and continue to question you  on that answ... one of your post .. so ................ do not answer me with ah..ha..ha.....

    well I said ah..ha..ha.. Now I am in water..  On that highlighted first point I wrote a post of two pages and never posted it because it leads to inquiring the  Islamic history  from year

    Quote
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.

    to ..to..to..

    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.

    and in the middle you have

    Quote
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.
    634: Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph
    644:  Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.


    So dear Altara., inquiring in to this history of Islam is COMPLETELY ABSENT in ACADEMIC CIRCLES . So I am not sure how to ask you the questions unless you are familiar/read through hadith volumes..

    Anyways brief  Questions to you..and     It is very Clear to me ((for almost 15 year)).. this Allah-Gabriel-Muhammad(PUBH) chit chat of Quran is nonsense.,  and and worse is in my view.,  THERE WAS NO QURANIC MUHAMMAD..,

    1). So do you think these four+1  guys from hadith ...Muhammad(not real name) and his two father in-laws(first two caliphs)and two son in-laws( the last two caliphs) were real people are Imaginary stories?  .. After all we have plenty of imaginary stories  in every faith..

    2). If they were real., what were their  real names and how  are they  related to these exemplars of that time., These  exemplars must be Christians right??

    3). Were these future Caliphs working / soldiers  of these  exemplars??

    4). And can you give few names and addresses and telephone numbers of these exemplars of middle east??.. well at least names..


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8898 - January 27, 2020, 05:26 PM

    1/ Muhammad did not exist. The rest described by the narrative did not exist as : Friend/Companion whatever... but did exist as what they were : Arab leaders.

    2/ Arab leaders whose I do not know the real names (I'm not H.G. Wells). Exemplars (in Quranic "texts" form, not codex) have probably be given to them, in any case they knew texts existed arguably by literati around them who (I think...) accompanied them in their governance. I think here to the Arabs arrived to Jerusalem in 637, those around the amir of al Hira, Ali, and around Zubayr. The Quranic texts are not Christians, none Christians would have built on the Temple Mount.
    3/Nope.
    4/ Copies of these exemplars are well known : Sanaa, Petropolitanus, Tubingen, Samarkand, etc., you can ask Mundi.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8899 - January 28, 2020, 12:23 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1221922882491600896
    Quote
    "The year drought afflicted the (ʾ)ʿrb" - a new discovery from the Ḥarrah provides our 1st evidence of how the Safaitic writers may have called themselves collectively: ʿarab or ʾaʿrāb. (pic: rock art w 1 of the texts)

    Why is this important?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8900 - January 28, 2020, 12:55 AM

    Does not surprise me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8901 - January 28, 2020, 01:36 PM

    damn me being a devil's advocate .. each of your four points a more questions before those statements are authenticated
    1/ Muhammad did not exist. The rest described by the narrative did not exist as : Friend/Companion whatever... but did exist as what they were : Arab leaders.

    So on that point.. being devils' advocate  so devils questions..

    again I fully agree that Muhammad(PBUH) of Quran did not exist

    1). Arab leaders from where?  Arabia?  Syria?  Egypt? Sinai?  or present Jordan/Iraq?  or from present Palestine ?? and were they Arab Pagans? Arab Jews? Arab Christians?? or or Arab Romans??

    2). So  you  accept all these Caliph guys were Arab leaders from some provinces of Arabia or   Arabian peninsula of that time around ~ 620 to 650..  right??

    Quote
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the 1st Caliph.
    634:  Death of 1st Caliph Hadrat Abu Bakr.
    644: Murder of of 2nd caliph Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    656: Murder  of 3rd Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the 4th Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
    661: Murder  of 4th caliph Hadrat Ali...

    So you accept all those 4 guys were leaders of Arabs.. but you don not accept Muhammad .. Why?
    why can not he be the first leader of Arabs that initiated Arab movement that moved on to Islamic movement?? Again that is nothing to do with   Muhammad of Quran that we see that word  few times in Quran..

    and other question is.,  do you think the present Quran.. the book ( at least 90% of it)was put together by that third caliph Uthman ibn Affan .. the third Caliph??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8902 - January 28, 2020, 02:37 PM

    1/ Arab leaders who arrived in Jerusalem in 637 (638?)  with their troops after the Yarmuk Battle (636). They did not come from Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/ Kaba/ Quran. From where then? Reflect. And Arab leaders as Ali the amir of al Hira, and around Zubayr, therefore during and after the Persians collapsing.

    2/ There is no Arabian peninsula, that did not exist as such at that time. What existed was Syria-Palestine and the East coast of the Beth Qaṭrayē until the Beth-Arabayē (north Mesopotamia, north Iraq today). They were not "caliphs", but leaders.
    Quote
    So you accept all those 4 guys were leaders of Arabs.. but you don not accept Muhammad .. Why?

    3/ Because  Muhammad is said to have lived and produced the Quranic corpus in Mecca/Medina/Kaba where none sources exists to validate this. I do not accept the names of those 4 guys except if one have other  (7th c.) sources to ground them. One have for Ali, for Zubayr not Uthman and Umar (this last can be the conqueror of Egypt)

    Quote
    why can not be the first leader of Arabs that initiated Arab movement?? Again that is nothing to do with   Muhammad of Quran that we see that word in few times...


    Simply because nobody knows it as such in the first 50 years of the Arab rule (630-685). He is no needed to trigger the war which will lead to  the " conquest". At all. Plus he is known to be dead before the war . It is rationale, as nobody has seen him, that he could not participate to the conquest because others should have seen him. Did someone has seen Muhammad in the battlefield leading something ? Nobody.

    Quote
    and other question is.,  do you think the present Quran.. the book ( at least 90% of it)was put together by that third caliph Uthman ibn Affan .. the third Caliph??

    As I consider that Uthman ibn Affan has no scientific ground, I think that it is possible that it was other people who put together those Quranic texts. And that Abd al Malik did something about the corpus.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8903 - January 28, 2020, 04:45 PM

    As I consider that Uthman ibn Affan has no scientific ground, I think that it is possible that it was other people who put together those Quranic texts. And that Abd al Malik did something about the corpus.


    Altara - do you think there was any kind of state sponsored editing or selection of the corpus before Abd al Malik?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8904 - January 28, 2020, 05:00 PM

    Nope, not before Abd al Malik. I think it was done, but not by a "state" sponsored action but by literati around the leaders before Abd al Malik who as the first  "state" sponsor.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8905 - January 28, 2020, 05:18 PM

    Altara - would you say that there are surviving manuscripts (or parts of manuscripts) that pre-date Abd al Malik?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8906 - January 28, 2020, 05:24 PM

    I do not think so. Except possibly for the Sanaa palimpsest.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8907 - January 28, 2020, 05:38 PM

    Assuming that the carbon dating cannot be relied on - do you think that any reasonable arguments for an earlier date for the manuscripts have been made that don’t rely on the assumption that there is some truth in the story of canonisation under Uthman?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8908 - January 28, 2020, 06:19 PM

    Quote
    an earlier date for the manuscripts

    Earlier date  from  Abd al Malik ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8909 - January 28, 2020, 06:28 PM

    Yes. I get the impression that there’s a widespread view that at least some manuscripts date to around the time of Uthman, but I’m wondering if anyone has produced good arguments for this dating that don’t rely on circular reasoning.

    (Carbon dating doesn’t seem like a good argument to me if dates that seem ‘too early’ are already being excluded)
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