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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8820 - January 13, 2020, 11:34 PM
    Altara,

    Bannister and Jay Smith call the presence of formulaic sentences (used to give pause to the reciter to come up with a story) proof that the tradition is not true. If it was a one off recitation directly from Mo, no need for formulaic sentences and recomposing the Quran every time it was recited. Who says the 7th C Arabs, well acquainted with oral performances would not have made the same reasoning? Adding these formulas seems counterproductive.

    But Altara, do you say the composition was written from the start? No oral phase? Seems the most logical to me too...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8821 - January 14, 2020, 12:13 AM
    Quote
    But Altara, do you say the composition was written from the start? No oral phase?

    Yes there was no oral phase.
    I say that the authors have written down texts that induces (therefore it is God who induces because it is God who is speaking when you read the texts ) to its readers the contrary, namely,  that what they read was orally proclaimed. So yes there was no oral phase.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8822 - January 14, 2020, 05:50 AM
    Quote
    No oral phaze


    Yes,, that would make sense. What the motivation was for the style is debatable imo.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8823 - January 14, 2020, 11:35 AM
    Quote
    Quote from: Altara on January 14, 2020, 12:13 AM
    Yes ................. no oral phase.
    ................. No oral phase.

    Quote from: mundi on January 14, 2020, 05:50 AM
    Yes,, that would make sense. What the motivation was for the style is debatable imo.


      Altara says ...No.. Oral ..no oral  phase and mundi  says...... debatable imo .,

     I too say it is debatable and it is oral.,   indeed when it comes to Islam.. the faith  it is debatable dear mundi..  Quran may have been a written  book or written Manuscripts by a very intelligent drama/prose writer/s with rhyming words ., but when it comes to Islam IT IS ALL ORAL TRANSMISSION  ... very little Islam comes from reading that  book 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8824 - January 14, 2020, 07:04 PM
    Quote
      Altara says ...No.. Oral ..no oral  phase and mundi  says...... debatable imo


    You misunderstood me Yeez. I believe the Quran was a written work from the beginning. The question is why all these formulaic verses? Altara says it is to trick the first believers, I suggest it was a deliberate style to make it nice to recite. Comparable to a song that often is written note for note without an oral performance to begin with. But it is written in such a fashion to ...make it a song.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8825 - January 14, 2020, 08:17 PM
    Quote
    Altara says it is to trick the first believers,


    For a very good reason, grounded by the informant episode. But it does not prevent what you say namely that formally they have written down the text as if it had been really proclaimed. But in adapting things (rhyme, etc).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8826 - January 14, 2020, 09:35 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 14, 2020, 07:04 PM
    You misunderstood me Yeez. ..

    well what is new in that dear mundi.??   Many many  posts I misunderstand .,     but you know .. you two guys are talking about Quran and I am talking about ISLAM....  so what I said there was
    Quote from: yeezevee on January 14, 2020, 11:35 AM

     I too say it is debatable and it is oral(ISLAM).,   indeed ..........when it comes to Islam IT IS ALL ORAL TRANSMISSION  ... very little Islam comes from reading that  book  ....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8827 - January 14, 2020, 09:38 PM
    Quote
    when it comes to Islam IT IS ALL ORAL TRANSMISSION  ... very little Islam comes from reading that  book  ....


    I don't really have that impression. Everything seems to be written down somewhere, up to the level of how (not) to use toilet paper....
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8828 - January 14, 2020, 09:46 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 14, 2020, 09:38 PM
    I don't really have that impression. Everything seems to be written down somewhere...........................................

    No..no...noooo we are talking about Quran dear mundi .. NOT SOMETHING WRITTEN SOMEWHERE  SOMETIME WAY AFTER  THE YEAR 850 oy later time
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8829 - January 15, 2020, 05:57 AM
    Yeez,

    Quote
    Contemporary oral transmission of Quran


    Whenever I see kids memorizing Quran I see the book too...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8830 - January 15, 2020, 02:16 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 15, 2020, 05:57 AM
    Yeez,

    Whenever I see kids memorizing Quran I see the book too...

     well there is NOTHING WRONG in Muslim kids memorizing some verses here and there., On top of that they hardly understand what is there in those verses   More over what is there is Quran ( as high 70% or more) is already there in other religious books ..

    So kids memorizing few songs/sonnets/stories  from Quran in Arabic or other languages is NOT a problem., The problem is somewhere else dear mundi..  here see the problems

    Quote
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1dSr-mwiFA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBQ_YLggQ9o

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvE1-pz24T4


    well anyway., what is there in Quran or for that matter any religious books?  As long as children sing songs and move on with life to become decent adults that its ok.. but BRAIN WASHING IS NOT OK...

    WHat one thing every religious schools must teach.. THAT THESE VERSES.. SCRIPTURES.. WHATEVER ARE NOT WORD OF allah/god.. whatever.. they are books of their time... That is what need to be mentioned to children..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8831 - January 15, 2020, 06:36 PM
    Yeez,

    You know the religion from inside out. I don't doubt you are right> But the discussion was here about the oral transmission of the Quran, and it is obvious in my scenario description that that is not a realistic option.

    Just as today people (kids) learn best from a book, that must have been the case first decades of 7th C too.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8832 - January 17, 2020, 12:00 AM
    Review on: Stephen J. Shoemaker. The Apocalypse of Empire. Imperial Eschatology in Late Antiquity and Early Islam. Philadelphia, PA: University of Pennsylvania Press 2018

    https://www.academia.edu/41644084/Review_on_Stephen_J._Shoemaker._The_Apocalypse_of_Empire._Imperial_Eschatology_in_Late_Antiquity_and_Early_Islam._Philadelphia_PA_University_of_Pennsylvania_Press_2018
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8833 - January 17, 2020, 10:43 AM
    Tritheists: https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1217431239218561025
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8834 - January 17, 2020, 11:39 AM
    Yes the authors are aware of many things. Before the 7 th c. Reynolds thinks that the Quran is  earlier than it.I think so. For me, start of writing middle of the 6th c.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8835 - January 17, 2020, 11:58 AM
    Quote
    Reynolds thinks that the Quran is  earlier than it


    How do you know?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8836 - January 17, 2020, 01:30 PM
    He made an article about the Birmingham radiocarbon C14 stuff.

    https://www.academia.edu/25775465/Variant_readings_The_Birmingham_Qur_an_in_the_Context_of_Debate_on_Islamic_Origins_Times_Literary_Supplement_7_Aug_2015_14-15
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8837 - January 17, 2020, 03:13 PM
    C14

    Yes, bit that was just a suggestion. Doesn't mean he thinks Quran is 7th C. It might be 710, 720, 730, 740...
    C14 shows it is very probable before 740...

    Assuming we have the oldest exemplars. It is very probable we dont have the archetype extant. That that one is before the C14 dated ones.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8838 - January 17, 2020, 03:39 PM
    He does not seem to be surprised about the dates. He does not raise any refutation of this. Maybe I'm wrong but I consider that this corroborates more or less what he thinks, even if the dates are wrong.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8839 - January 17, 2020, 04:28 PM
    Quote
    dates are wrong


    Why do you think this? Time frame for doing C14 early 7th C is excellent. Method has improved a lot lately. No reason to doubt.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8840 - January 17, 2020, 04:46 PM
    Said Reza Huseini - Conquest through Negotiation: The Arab Takeover of Qom in Sasanian Iran

    https://leidenislamblog.nl/articles/conquest-through-negotiation-the-arab-takeover-of-qom-in-sasanian-iran
    Quote
    The term “early Muslim conquests” brings to mind Arabs taking a place with violence, without any cooperation from the local population. No doubt that was sometimes the case. But did the early Muslim “conquests” of Sasanian Iran follow this pattern? How did the locals’ reactions affect the conquests?

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8841 - January 18, 2020, 08:58 PM
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/KhalilAndani/status/1218339748441284610
    Quote
    "Counting pronouns and titles" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8842 - January 18, 2020, 09:43 PM
    https://mobile.twitter.com/KhalilAndani/status/1218339748441284610
    Quote
    Interesting! Do you see a theological reason why Mohammed in the Quran is so often mentioned in an indirect way?

     

    Yes I see one (very good) reason.  (I will not tell  here, this is not the place, etc)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8843 - January 18, 2020, 11:16 PM
    Altara,

    Doesnt it feel lonely, having to keep all these neat secrets to yourself?

    Here you are, with the discovery of the century, still having to wait another decade to share...Must be tough,
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8844 - January 19, 2020, 01:25 AM
    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes

    Quote
    Doesnt it feel lonely, having to keep all these neat secrets to yourself?


    At all. What was troubling me is that none have had the responses I have. But... But I know why. Because the topic is complicated, it necessitates things that I have by chance. I was trained in it for some parts whereas I did not know it .It's chance, nothing else,  that I have some interesting responses. (Marc s >>> Marx would say opinions Wink )

    Quote
    Here you are, with the discovery of the century, still having to wait another decade to share...Must be tough,


    Not a discovery as we'll never know, except if time travel will exist one day,  if I'm right. Wink

    The reason I see is not theological Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8845 - January 19, 2020, 01:52 PM
    Quote from: Altara on January 19, 2020, 01:25 AM
    Yes

    ....................... chance.....................It's chance, ..................


    who knows .. that is a puzzle? Chance or Destiny.... Chance Vs Destiny........

    may be,  it is your destiny that you  will not be able to finish that  book with those ideas and worst is someone else will snatch the ball from you and score the goal....

    So guard the ball carefully dear Altara... Cheesy Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8846 - January 19, 2020, 02:37 PM
    Quote
    may be,  it is your destiny that you  will not be able to finish that  book with those ideas .


    All is always possible indeed. I'm rewriting the chapter about the nasara at the moment. I had to rewrite it quasi totally and I've still  not finished. Size of the chapter was 20 pages, I think  it's going to be over 40/50 pages. Plus the thesis of Gallez about the nasara which is the core of his entire thesis (they are not Christians but the real authors of the Quran, from the Qumran line, because of the jihad (etc), the meaning of this word was transferred to "Christian" to make forgotten the real "nasara", to make the Quran as an Arabic cult, etc) has to be (definitely) settled. It is then long time work.

    Quote
    and worst is someone else will snatch the ball from you and score the goal...


    I'm not sure of that. It is a conjunction of many things and the fact that I got them is chance. But the conjunction is needed to understand the topic. See Crone for example, she did not have it : she is (totally) lost in her papers (Quranic pagans, etc). I say Crone but I could say anyone (Hawting, etc)
    The first thing is to have enough fortitude to rid of the master narrative.Who can do that now in academic? No one. One knows very well why.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8847 - January 19, 2020, 03:31 PM
    Altara,

    If you need a critical read, I'll comment your chapter!  Roll Eyes Just send it!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8848 - January 19, 2020, 05:14 PM
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/CellardEleonore/status/1218847744695119872
    Quote
    1/9. Early Qur’āns are fragmented. What does FRAGMENT mean here? Sometimes, we have almost whole Qur’āns with a few missing leaves. Other times, it's just one leaf.. So, how could we know if these fragments were complete Qur’āns at first?

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8849 - January 19, 2020, 06:24 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: zeca on January 19, 2020, 05:14 PM
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/CellardEleonore/status/1218847744695119872

    1/9. Early Qur’āns are fragmented. What does FRAGMENT mean here? Sometimes, we have almost whole Qur’āns with a few missing leaves. Other times, it's just one leaf.. So, how could we know if these fragments were complete Qur’āns at first?


    that is extremely important point in discussing about these old manuscripts of Quran , often these Quran scholars from academics   hide it under the flying carpet when writing publications on these manuscripts ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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