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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8610 - December 20, 2019, 05:25 PM

    Quote
    I am starting to buy into the link. The masjid al Haram of Quran could be Jerusalem


    That is why they build the House in 637. Of course in a completely different frame than the one the narrative is telling. My proposition frame : no Mecca/Kaba/Muhammad, but Quranic texts in hands. They do not know where it come from, but they have it, not necessarily all. They know what they are : sons of Abraham via Ishmael due to Jewish propaganda retaken by Christianity since ages. Then, they felt legitimate to build as Q 2:125-127 tell them that theirs fathers (Abraham and  Ishmael) did.
    I remind here that I came to this from a different path than Gallez. I got the idea and it remember something about him: Did Gallez has not said something like that ? I checked, yes he did Wink

    Quote
    and the total focus of these first 5 surahs could be Jerusalem.


    It could. But the point with Q 2:125-127 is that it could be the reason to a sourced event : the building in 637.

    Quote
    The first hajj being Jerusalem?


    After 637 yes. But 637 is not an hajj, it is the taking over of Syria-Palestine.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8611 - December 20, 2019, 06:38 PM

    Quote
    No they pray there because his tomb is there. That is the reason they go to that place.


    By default, yes. The main reason is that they are forbidden of Jerusalem.

    Quote
    now I am to believe

    Stop to twist what people say. Nobody ask you to believe something. But to examine. Thing that seems difficult for you. You seems to be incapable to make the difference.

    Quote
    that out of the blue Arabs because they read a verse in a text go to a place


    Who said that? (TM) Nobody. Did I say somewhere that Arabs go to Jerusalem because they read a verse?  Nowhere. Wink

    The Arabs go to Jerusalem because they take over the region; that they want to control the city is normal, like all the cities of Syria-Palestine.
    But there, the opportunity make the thief; they are sons of Abraham via Ishmael: Abraham's place is Jerusalem>> Arabs place is Jerusalem as sons of Abraham, like the Jews place is Jerusalem as sons of Abraham as well where they build the Temple on the very place of the ligature of Isaac by who?  Abraham.

    Quote
    they were never linked with

     
     they are sons of Abraham via Ishmael: Abraham's place is Jerusalem>> Arabs place is Jerusalem as sons of Abraham, like the Jews place is Jerusalem as sons of Abraham as well and it is there they build the Temple on the very place of the ligature of Isaac by who?  Abraham.

    And there is no link between Arabs and Jerusalem? Wink


    Quote
    and build something there,


    Except via Q 2:125-127 which tell them in Arabic !!!!  that their fathers (Abraham and Ishmael )   did so. It is then possible that it is the reason why they build. Because of the verses. That's all I say, no more no less Wink
    Quote
    because I find this hard to believe (things don't pop up like this) and because that verse is cryptic at best

     

    You project your mind on 7th c. people who have nothing to see with you. You have not been trained by scholars who have explained to you that the mentality of ancient people is different from ours so to not project your mentality on them.  So you say: as it is impossible for me to think that a cryptic verse could trigger this building , it is impossible for them to think otherwise. You're wrong.

    One sees here the limit of amateurism in history. No trained people pretend to work on a topic whereas they have not the basic bases of historical methodology. Because they are not trained.

    Quote
    This is the muslim tradition you are quoting


    From the moment it does not serves the master narrative, I do not see the issue of retaking it  about certain episodes (which is validated by external sources) where what is at stake is basic power. It is the case of the Damascus/Iraq stuff.

    Quote
    and even that tradition hardly hide that az Zubayr might have been the rightful ruler ;

    That Zubayr might have been the rightful ruler (from hence ?), why not.  What does that change relating to what we deal with? Nothing...
    There was no Zubayr in 637 in Jerusalem...Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8612 - December 20, 2019, 07:53 PM

    Altara,

    Is it really necessary to insult people to make your point? Have you noticed if amateurs like Marc and I wouldn't interact with you there would be a lot less discussion? And that's why we are here, no? Not just to open links to articles and read them in perfect isolation.

    Bonnet-Emyard sees these 5 first Surah's as the account of the Arabian conquests, with focus on Jerusalem.

    I agree Marc, that in isolation 2:127 is way to cryptic to trigger the building of the house in 637. But in association with the rest of the text, reading Masjid al-haram as Jerusalem, it makes more sense. That would mean that there exists an ideological Arab movement that has internalized this project, and is prepared to fulfill the directives of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8613 - December 20, 2019, 08:56 PM

    Quote
    Altara,


    Yes

    Quote
    Is it really necessary to insult people to make your point?

     


    I maybe severe sometimes, depends who is before me Wink Am I severe with you? I do not think so, with Yeez, the same. Wink
    Marc knows very well why I'm (sometimes...) severe with him... That does not prevent him to continue the discussion... It shows that the topic is more important for him than that. Which is good.
    That does not mean that I could not tell him some perceptible flaws specific of the topic of this forum. He is not trained in history, that is a fact. This issue drive him to think wrong. Contrary to popular belief (which I deplore), history is not a video game to which all can play. It needs training.
    Quote
    Have you noticed if amateurs like Marc and I wouldn't interact with you there would be a lot less discussion?


    Perfectly. That does not change anything for me. Everybody is free to leave... Wink
    Quote
    Bonnet-Emyard sees these 5 first Surah's as the account of the Arabian conquests, with focus on Jerusalem.


    I'm not agree on this Wink
    Quote
    that in isolation 2:127 is way to cryptic to trigger the building of the house in 637. But in association with the rest of the text, reading Masjid al-haram as Jerusalem, it makes more sense.


    Yes, but the specific trigger remains 125-127. If it was not there, there would have been no building.
    Quote
    That would mean that there exists an ideological Arab movement that has internalized this project, and is prepared to fulfil the directives of the Quran.

    For me, it is the literati around the military leaders in campaign which have some texts. It is them who interpret it and communicate their views to the military who obey or not to their desiderata.
    (For me) Jerusalem as such was not the purpose of the war. Gallez is wrong on this. One does not need 8 years to go to Jerusalem since the departure of Heraclius... in a void country...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8614 - December 20, 2019, 10:22 PM

    Nobody ask you to believe something. But to examine. Thing that seems difficult for you. You seems to be incapable to make the difference.




    You want me to believe because you cannot accept someone not coming to the same conclusions as you do. Bring me solid proofs and not your opinion and I might even change my mind.

    Quote
    And there is no link between Arabs and Jerusalem? Wink


    I thought I was clear so :

    - Arabs used to go on pilgrimmage to Mamre = they were linked to Mamre,
    - Arabs didn't go on pilgrimmage to Jerusalem (to my knowledge) so they were not linked to Jerusalem


    Quote
    Except via Q 2:125-127 which tell them in Arabic !!!!  that their fathers (Abraham and Ishmael )   did so.


    They did so in Jerusalem ? Is it written in the text ? I think not so one would look to places where Abraham and Ishmael dwelt together. Have you ?

    Quote
    That Zubayr might have been the rightful ruler (from hence ?), why not.  What does that change relating to what we deal with? Nothing...
    There was no Zubayr in 637 in Jerusalem...Wink


    It is not the first time I notice you have issue following a conversation with multiple items ; go back where az Zubayr came into the conversation and your reply might make sense.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8615 - December 20, 2019, 10:26 PM


    I agree Marc, that in isolation 2:127 is way to cryptic to trigger the building of the house in 637. But in association with the rest of the text, reading Masjid al-haram as Jerusalem, it makes more sense. That would mean that there exists an ideological Arab movement that has internalized this project, and is prepared to fulfill the directives of the Quran.


    Yes, but the specific trigger remains 125-127


    The rest of the text like 2:125 "And [mention] when Abraham said, "My Lord, make this a secure city "

    So the city is Jerusalem ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8616 - December 21, 2019, 12:25 AM


    You want me to believe


    Nope I want you to use your brain. Believing is not using his brain. This terminology you use (believe, opinion, etc) is not appropriate to scholarship.

    Quote
    because you cannot accept someone not coming to the same conclusions as you do.


    At all. Because you contest the link Abraham/Ismael>> Jerusalem >> Arabs.
    This link exists as Arabs have interiorized it long time before Islam. If this link did not exist the Quran would have not used it.

    Quote
    Bring me solid proofs and not your opinion and I might even change my mind.


    It is not my opinion it is facts. As son of Abraham Arabs are linked to Jerusalem, not as the same level as the Jews but they are linked to it.
    You refuse to see it.

    Quote
    I thought I was clear so :


    You're never clear, that is why Yeez and Mundi ask you always precisions.
    Zeca (for me ...) has given up asking you any questions.

    Quote
    -Arabs used to go on pilgrimmage to Mamre = they were linked to Mamre,


    What is Mambre: Abraham. What is Jerusalem: Abraham.
    Abraham = Mambre = Arabs pilgrimage
    Abraham = Jerusalem =Arabs building via Quranic texts who God  seems to speak in Arabic to an Arab. No Quranic texts, no building

    Quote
    - Arabs didn't go on pilgrimmage to Jerusalem (to my knowledge) so they were not linked to Jerusalem


    They did not go to Jerusalem because there was no Temple any more. That is the reason. However they did go in Jerusalem as Christians when they were Christianized.


    Quote
    They did so in Jerusalem ? Is it written in the text ? I think not so one would look to places where Abraham and Ishmael dwelt together. Have you ?


    They copy what the text says. A text in Arabic which they do not know from where it comes from, but a text where God seems to speak to an Arab, like them.As they are the sons of Abraham and Ishmael, they felt legitimate to build as the place was void.

    Quote
    It is not the first time I notice you have issue following a conversation with multiple items ; go back where az Zubayr came into the conversation and your reply might make sense.


    Did you see the link between Arabs and Jerusalem?
    I'm sure not Wink


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8617 - December 21, 2019, 11:10 AM

    The rest of the text like 2:125 "And [mention] when Abraham said, "My Lord, make this a secure city "

    So the city is Jerusalem ?

    Marc  that verse is 2,126 ............  anyways .. why do you read just single verse from single translator and make some silly story /assumptions out of it?


    Quote

    وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ اجْعَلْ هَـٰذَا بَلَدًا آمِنًا وَارْزُقْ أَهْلَهُ مِنَ الثَّمَرَاتِ مَنْ آمَنَ مِنْهُم بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۖ قَالَ وَمَن كَفَرَ فَأُمَتِّعُهُ قَلِيلًا ثُمَّ أَضْطَرُّهُ إِلَىٰ عَذَابِ النَّارِ ۖ وَبِئْسَ الْمَصِيرُ


    Transliteration:   Waith qala ibraheemu rabbi ijAAal hatha baladan aminan waorzuq ahlahu mina alththamarati man amana minhum biAllahi waalyawmi alakhiri qala waman kafara faomattiAAuhu qaleelan thumma adtarruhu ila AAathabi alnnari wabisa almaseeru

    Yusuf Ali:   And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"

    Shakir:   And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day." He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.

    Pickthall:   And when Abraham prayed: My Lord! Make this a region of security and bestow upon its people fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day, "He answered: As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of Fire - a hapless journey's end!

    Mohsin Khan:   And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) said, "My Lord, make this city (Makkah) a place of security and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day."" He (Allah) answered: "As for him who disbelieves, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the torment of the Fire, and worst indeed is that destination!"

    Saheeh:   And [mention] when Abraham said, " My Lord, make this a secure city and provide its people with fruits - whoever of them believes in Allah and the Last Day." "[Allah] said. "And whoever disbelieves - I will grant him enjoyment for a little; then I will force him to the punishment of the Fire, and wretched is the destination."


    and how does it matter whether that verse mentions .. city.. town.. region??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8618 - December 21, 2019, 11:40 AM


    Translation of Bonnet-Eymard of the 126 rasm according to the context.

    Quote
    At  this time Abraham says:  Master, consecrates this one [ here Ishmael] (as) a  faithful child [yaladan. Heb. Yeled=child ]and provide this people with palms, all of them who will believe in God and the Last Day.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8619 - December 21, 2019, 02:41 PM

    Translation of Bonnet-Eymard of the 126 rasm according to the context.

    Oh I see ., I was wondering why Marc is using that verse 2.126., that is because of this

    - Arabs used to go on pilgrimmage to Mamre = they were linked to Mamre,
    - Arabs didn't go on pilgrimmage to Jerusalem (to my knowledge) so they were not linked to Jerusalem

    dear Marc., you use the word "Arab" as such everyone  from Yemen to Syria and  in between  lands/mini kingdoms of that time  were all Muslims and Arabs.,    Are you using that word exclusively for those Arab folks who were Pagan and they were neither Christians nor Jews??? .. and..and calling every one as Arab???..

    what is there in Jewish folks at that time worshiping/visiting towns like  Jerusalem or  Mamre? Infact for real Judaism followers,  Mamre is more important than  Jerusalem., because it allegedly has those tombs of the three couples, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Leah, whose stories are famous in all  three  Abrahamic faiths., where as Jerusalem had political power since ages .. And Mamre is just 30 miles from Jerusalem., 

    So ideally., the believers of Islam   should read that verse

    Shakir:   ....................My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day."..................

    or

    Pickthall:   ...................My Lord! Make this a region of security and bestow upon its people fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day, "................

    anyways I say well educated historians should not pick up such words as  arab., jerusalem, mamre ..etc..etc biblical words and write publications without having any relation to the CONTEXT of that verse  in a peer reviewed journals..

    Hmm this pub is worth reading

    The identity and witness of Arab pre-Islamic Arab Christianity: The Arabic language and the Bible Herv. teol. stud. vol.70 n.1 Pretoria Jan. 2014  by David D. GraftonI

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8620 - December 21, 2019, 03:09 PM

    Quote
    Infact for real Judaism followers, Mamre is more important than Jerusalem.


    Nope. God is present in the Temple of Jerusalem, not in Mamre.
    Judaism is a precise hierarchically organized customs of certain people which, gathered, constitute their way of life and the way of  thinking of the Universe around them.
    Hierarchically organized customs: there is no injunction to this people about Mamre in the Pentateuch, as well as in the time of Jesus, than before, or after.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8621 - December 21, 2019, 03:17 PM



    Arab Christians and the Qurʾan from the Origins of Islam to the Medieval Period
    Publication Date: 12 Mar 2018

    Quote
    Editor: Mark Beaumont

    Arab Christians and the Qurʾan from the Origins of Islam to the Medieval Period is a collection of essays on the use and interpretation of the Qur’an by Christians writing in Arabic in the period of Islamic rule in the Middle East up to the end of the thirteenth century. These essays originated in the seventh Woodbrooke-Mingana Symposium on Arab Christianity held in Birmingham, UK, in 2013, and are edited by Mark Beaumont.

    Contributors are: David Bertaina, Sidney Griffith, Sandra Keating, Michael Kuhn, Juan Pedro Monferrer-Sala, Gordon Nickel, Emilio Platti and David Thomas


    Arabs in Palestine and Jordan predate Christianity and Islam By DAOUD KUTTAB .,   Jerusalem Post MAY 12, 2009 08:33



    Quote
    The visit of Pope Benedict XVI to Jordan and Palestine is a perfect opportunity to review and stress the role of Christian Arabs in the peace process and their strong support for peace with justice. To begin with, it is important for all to know that Arabs have been in Palestine and Jordan before the arrival of Islam and Christianity.

    References to the word "Arab" and its derivatives are mentioned hundreds of times in the Old and New Testaments. The biblical figure of Job is said to be Arab; Arabs were among the many attending the sermon on the Day of Pentecost by St. Peter, and were among the 3,000 who then became Christians. Acts II refers to Arabs having heard the sermon in their own tongue. Arab Christians have, therefore, been an integral part of Palestine and the Middle East from the earliest days of the Church.

    Quote
    The role of Arab Christians in modern Arab nationalism was best reflected in George Habib Antonius' book The Arab Awakening. Antonius (1891-1941) was one of the first historians of Arab nationalism. Born of Lebanese-Egyptian parentage and a Christian (Greek Orthodox) Arab, he served in the British Mandate of Palestine. His 1938 book was written as Palestine was slipping from Arab control. Antonius traced Arab nationalism to the reign of Mehmet Ali Pasha in Egypt. He argued that Arab nationalism was a product of the West, especially of Protestant missionaries from Britain and the United States. He saw the role of the American University of Beirut (originally the Syrian Protestant College) as central to this development. In welcoming the pope at the King Hussein Mosque in Amman on Saturday, Prince Ghazi Bin Mohammad gave special reference to Arab Christians


     "Christians were in Jordan 600 years before Muslims. Indeed, Jordanian Christians are perhaps the oldest Christian community in the world, and the majority have always been Orthodox, adhering to the Orthodox patriarchate of Jerusalem in the Holy Land, which, as Your Holiness knows better than I, is the church of St. James, and was founded during Jesus' own lifetime." "Many of them are descended from the ancient Arab tribes of al Ghassaneh and al Khamin, and they have, throughout history, shared the fate and struggles of their fellow Muslim tribesman.

    Quote
    "Indeed, in 630, during the prophet's own lifetime, they joined the prophet's own army, led by his adopted son, Zeid Ben Hartheh and his cousin Jaafar Ben Abi Taleh and fought against the Byzantine army of their fellow orthodox, at the battle of Mu'ta. "It is because of this battle, that they earned their tribal name al Azezzat, which means 'the reinforcements,' and Latin Patriarch Fouad Twal himself comes from these tribes.


    "Then, in 1099, they were slaughtered by Catholic crusaders during the fall of Jerusalem, alongside their Muslim comrades." Prince Ghazi continued: "Later from 1916 to 1918, during the Great Arab revolt, they fought against Muslim Turks, alongside Muslim Arab comrades. They thereafter languished for a few decades, along with their Muslim fellows, under a Protestant colonial mandate, and in the Arab-Israeli wars of 1948, 1967, and 1968, they fought with their Arab Muslim comrades against Jewish opponents." STATISTICS REGARDING Arab Christians vary. Wikipedia states that Christians today make up 9.2 per cent of the population of the Near East. In Lebanon, they now number around 39 per cent, in Syria from 10 to 15 per cent.

     In Palestine before the creation of Israel, estimates range up to as much as 40 per cent, but mass emigration has slashed the number at present to 3.8 per cent. In Israel, Arab Christians constitute 2.1 per cent (or roughly 10 per cent of the Arab population). In Egypt, they constitute between 9 and 16 per cent of the population (the government figures put them at 6 per cent). Around two-thirds of North and South American and Australian Arabs are Christian, particularly from Lebanon, but also from Palestine and Syria.

    The current president of El Salvador Antonio Saca comes from well-known Christian Palestinian ancestry; his family emigrated from Bethlehem in the early 20th century. Although the number of Christian Palestinians in Jerusalem and the occupied territories has dwindled over the years, they are still a key component of the Palestinian and Arab peoples of the region. Activists blame violence, occupation and uncertainty, coupled with work (or lack thereof) and emigration opportunities as the main reason for the flight of Christian Palestinians to the Americas, Australia and Europe. While the world looks at the Arab-Israeli conflict from an Arab-Israeli point of view, or a Jewish-Islamic one, the role and contribution of Arab Christians cannot and need not be ignored. Unlike followers of the Jewish and Muslim faiths,

    Quote
    Christians have no religious attachment to physical locations. Scholars refer to the response of Jesus to the Samaritan woman's question about whether to worship in Jerusalem or in the Sumerian mountains. Jesus replied to her: "Neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." Christian Arabs, however, believe that a lasting resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict must both address the national aspirations of the Palestinians (of which they are part) and provide for the spiritual needs of the faithful, including Christians. In this regard, Palestinian Christians are perhaps angriest with a radical but effective group of Christians who try to give biblical support and legitimacy to the Israeli aggression against Palestinians. An entire, well-endowed industry has cropped up in the West, attempting to hijack the Christian theological debate in favour of what is now referred to as Christian Zionism.


     Right-wing governments in Israel and the US seem to be natural feeding grounds for these fundamentalists. Palestinian Christians have forcefully rejected this position, and some established evangelical voices have also come up to debunk these myths and insist on the need for justice as an integral part of any peaceful resolution in the region. These were exactly the wrong usages of religion that the pope referred to in Jordan when he spoke against the "ideologization" of religion.

    The visit of the pontiff has stirred plenty of interest in the contributions Christians can make to the peace process. Israel's attempts to ban the Aida refugees in Bethlehem from erecting the stand for the visiting Pope by the 28-foot-high wall is perhaps the most glaring worry the Israeli occupiers have about the visit of the pontiff. They fear precisely what Arab Christians insist on: that a truly Christian position on the Israeli-Arab conflict will not be merely satisfied with a call for peace, but will necessarily also include a call for justice for Palestinians. "Peace and justice" is the message of people of faith from the entire world, and is certainly the focus for Arab Christians. The writer is director of media NGO Community Media Network in Jordan and Palestine. He comes from a Palestinian Christian family that traces its ancestry in Jerusalem 600 years. An earlier version of this article appeared in The Jordan Times.

    well that is old news blog but still worth reading

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8622 - December 21, 2019, 03:20 PM

    Nope. God is present in the Temple of Jerusalem, not in Mamre.
    ............................

    no.,  Nope., For those who understand faiths/religions and their books ....., there is NO GOD anywhere on this earth and here on earth TOMBS OF PRIESTS AND PREACHERS  ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN GOD or God's tomb..

    and I really do not care about this history of faith heads

    Quote
    Judaism is a precise hierarchically organized customs of certain people which, gathered, constitute their way of life and the way of  thinking of the Universe around them.

    Hierarchically organized customs: there is no injunction to this people about Mamre in the Pentateuch, as well as in the time of Jesus, than before, or after.


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8623 - December 21, 2019, 04:25 PM

    I corrected what you said Yeez  which was factually wrong....
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8624 - December 21, 2019, 06:20 PM

    Nope I want you to use your brain. Believing is not using his brain. This terminology you use (believe, opinion, etc) is not appropriate to scholarship.


    I agree because you are not a scholar or maybe you didn't understand what was being taught during your classes.

    Fact = arab invader built something on the Temple Mount
    Opinion = they had quaranic texts with them
    Logical deduction = coin minted saying Abd al Malik was a governor of Az Zubayr so it is Abd al Malik who revolted against Az Zubayr and not the opposite

    The rest of the text like 2:125 "And [mention] when Abraham said, "My Lord, make this a secure city "

    So the city is Jerusalem ?


    I  still don't have the answer to a simple question  whistling2

    Quote
    At all. Because you contest the link Abraham/Ismael>> Jerusalem >> Arabs.
    This link exists as Arabs have interiorized it long time before Islam.

    It is not my opinion it is facts. As son of Abraham Arabs are linked to Jerusalem, not as the same level as the Jews but they are linked to it.
    You refuse to see it.


    I don't dispute any of this ; I only dispute the opinion you reach.
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8625 - December 21, 2019, 06:33 PM

    Marc  that verse is 2,126 ............  anyways .. why do you read just single verse from single translator and make some silly story /assumptions out of it?



    Your comments are funny as usual because You should say this to the people who brought this verse up, not to me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8626 - December 21, 2019, 06:39 PM

    dear Marc., you use the word "Arab" as such everyone  from Yemen to Syria and  in between  lands/mini kingdoms of that time  were all Muslims and Arabs.,    Are you using that word exclusively for those Arab folks who were Pagan and they were neither Christians nor Jews??? .. and..and calling every one as Arab???..


    Obviously I am not referring to Christian Arabs nor Jewish Arabs but the ones who came with quranic texts and were neither Jews nor Christians (according to altara).

    Quote
    what is there in Jewish folks at that time worshiping/visiting towns like  Jerusalem or  Mamre? Infact for real Judaism followers,  Mamre is more important than  Jerusalem., because it allegedly has those tombs of the three couples, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Leah, whose stories are famous in all  three  Abrahamic faiths., where as Jerusalem had political power since ages .. And Mamre is just 30 miles from Jerusalem., 


    You mistake Mamre and Hebron.

    Mamre is the place where, according to the Bible, God appeared to Abraham and ate with him before departing and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8627 - December 21, 2019, 06:49 PM

    Translation of Bonnet-Eymard of the 126 rasm according to the context.



    How does he translate 2:124 and 2:125 ? What are his conclusions then ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8628 - December 21, 2019, 07:07 PM

    Quote
    I agree because you are not a scholar or maybe you didn't understand what was being taught during your classes.


    It is always the same pattern for people outside scholarship who behaves as scholar of some sort whereas they are not trained at all. As they are not trained, they employ in their scholarship dialogues in the forum-s the mainstream key-words used in mainstream conversation: " believe"; "opinion", etc. And, when it does not work because they are questioned of their competences about what they says, arrives the expression : "you do not understand".

    Here, it is "you didn't understand what was being taught during your classes". says a guy who have never attended history class in any University. He does not know of what he talking about.
     I have to adopt the way of thinking of mainstream conversation : "opinion", "believe", etc.
    I won't.
    Quote
    Fact = arab invader built something on the Temple Mount


    Yes (yawn)...

    Quote
    Opinion = they had quaranic texts with them


    Nope. Deduction : it is plausible that they had...





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8629 - December 21, 2019, 07:07 PM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/CellardEleonore/status/1208393555900796928
    Quote
    Thread. Ancient Qur’ān scrolls

    1/6. Material investigations of Qur’ān manuscripts suggest that the Qur’ān adopted the codex shape since the first centuries. However, in the Damascus collection, now kept in Istanbul Museum of Turkish and Islamic Art, there are a few exceptions.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8630 - December 21, 2019, 07:29 PM

    Obviously I am not referring to Christian Arabs nor Jewish Arabs but the ones who came with quranic texts and were neither Jews nor Christians (according to altara).


    Arabs Jews, that does not exists apart in Yemen. If the Arabs Jews of Yemen were the Arabs in Jerusalem in 637, they would have left the Jews building.
    They did not. Therefore they were not Arabs Jews of Yemen.
    Christians Arabs would have not build anything, like Christians have no build anything in the Temple Mount when they access power in the 4 thc, considering that as the Temple  was destroyed and that it was a sign  of God, all of this had been terminated.
    If Arabs in Jerusalem in 637 build something it is that they were guided by non Christians and non Jews (they did not left the Jews building)  things.
    I consider that it is plausible that it was by Quranic texts as Q 2:125-127 as I consider Muslim narratives as non historical.

    Quote
    How does he translate 2:124 and 2:125 ? What are his conclusions then ?

     
    Start to answers my questions of the last 30 days... There is no factual reason  I would do what you never do (yawn...)
    And of all the people here know that I will...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8631 - December 21, 2019, 07:32 PM


    I don't dispute any of this ; I only dispute the opinion  logical deduction you reach.  


    With no arguments Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8632 - December 21, 2019, 07:40 PM



    Interesting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8633 - December 21, 2019, 07:59 PM

    Obviously I am not referring to Christian Arabs nor Jewish Arabs but the ones who came with quranic texts and were neither Jews nor Christians (according to altara).

    You mistake Mamre and Hebron.
     
    Mamre is the place where, according to the Bible,  God appeared to Abraham and ate with him before departing and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah.

    I am not   interested in God and  Abraham ,, Bible stories etc.... etc dear Marc., So forget Bible forget God.,  but Physical evidence .. that is places like   Mamre ,Hebron  or Jerusalem are important for real history of Abrahamic faiths ., anyways., So    what is the distance between the two places?? 5 mts drive? that Tomb of the Patriarchs or  Matriarchs...  is it not that Cave of Machpelah ?  which  is in Hebron , is it not?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8634 - December 21, 2019, 08:03 PM

    Quote

      Material investigations of Qur’ān manuscripts suggest that the Qur’ān adopted the codex shape since the first centuries.


    what ? what is First centuries??  is it 1st century AD? some 600 years before Quran ??





    Hmmmm.,  they do look like Arabic Manuscripts

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8635 - December 21, 2019, 08:10 PM

    ^If you look at the thread she says the earliest of these date from the ninth century. ‘First centuries’ is obviously the first centuries of Islam.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8636 - December 22, 2019, 03:52 AM

    It is always the same pattern for people outside scholarship who behaves as scholar  ; you even pretend to be one


    The only one on this forum pretending to behave like a scholar is you.  whistling2 whistling2 whistling2 whistling2

    Quote
    Here, it is "you didn't understand what was being taught during your classes". says a guy who have never attended history class in any University. He does not know of what he talking about.
     I have to adopt the way of thinking of mainstream conversation : "opinion", "believe", etc.


    Well there is no need to attend an history class to know about facts, logical deduction and opinion ; it is taught in different fields and I can recognize them when I see them.

    Quote
    Start to answers my questions of the last 30 days... There is no factual reason  I would do what you never do (yawn...)


    I am not asking that question hoping I am going to learn something from you ; I only asked the question because I want to understand how you utilize what you quoted to build up your opinions on the topic.

    I have a very simple rule  ; quranic texts come from previous writings. So looking at 2:124 to 2:127 makes one think about Genesis 17/18 but with some re-writings. Now Bonnet-Eymard makes some interesting comments with what you posted so let me bring some other comments from him

    Quote
    God here solemnly renews this covenant in favor of "Abraham and Ishmael", and he summons men to "the House", 'al-bayta, transposition of the Hebrew bayit, so that they "celebrate the" Place of Abraham "by prayers" (Q 2:125).

    What "Place" is it? The Arabic word maqâm is the transposition of the Hebrew maqôm, "Holy place" of Sichem, to the Oak of Mamre, where "Yahweh appeared to Abraham and said:" It is to your seed that I will give this country. "", That is to say the Holy Land. "And there Abraham built an altar to Yahweh that appeared to him. »(Gen 12: 6-7).


    So 2 different readings of the text on those verses (2:124 to 2:127) and none of those readings link Abraham & Ishmael to Jerusalem. Building on the Temple Mount could not have been triggered by the Quran.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8637 - December 22, 2019, 12:31 PM

    Quote
    Where is the reference? Nowhere. Who speak? Nobody. When? Nobody knows. In what? Idem.


    I provided the same reference as you did for the reading of 2:126.

    However, you haven't read what he said on surah 2 and your quote of 2:126 was picked up somewhere but you didn't read his whole discourse on the topic.

    You could have told me that, by a surprising twist, he says afterwards :

    Quote
    What purpose ? To restore the foundations of the Temple "with Ishmael" (II, 127). Isaac is not even named. According to the Bible, however, he was the depositary of the promises. Islam is a radical subversion, an unprecedented revolution, which strips "the children of Israel" of their privilege and, a fortiori, the Christians, children of God "in the manner of Isaac" (Ga 4, 28) , for the benefit of the descendants of Ishmael, the tribes of northern Arabia from his twelve sons whose names are listed in Genesis 25, 12-16.


    Strange you didn't provide this (Gallez picked it up here I guess) because it does back up your assumption/opinion.

    I think Bonnet-Eymards makes a mistake here and should have remained on the same line of thought as with his reading of 2:125.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8638 - December 22, 2019, 04:19 PM

    Marc and Altara,

    The Quran is no calque of the Bible. Seems like late Antique Judaism associated Mount Moriah with Abraham and the Temple Mount. That might be enough for the Jewish inspired author of this part of the Quran or the followers to associate 2:125 with that location. Seems possible to me now.

    I dont understand your objection to the possibility Marc?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8639 - December 22, 2019, 04:51 PM

    Translation of Bonnet-Eymard of the v.126 rasm according to the context.

    Quote
    At  this time Abraham says:  Master, consecrates this one [ here Ishmael] (as) a  faithful child [yaladan. Heb. Yeled=child ]and provide this people with palms, all of them who will believe in God and the Last Day.


    1/ I (just) wrote this quote to remark that it was not a city at stake for Bonnet-Eymard . But a child as allowed by the rasm. Therefore it would be a child of Abraham: Isaac or Ishmael like he translate it.
    I think he's right on this.
    Arabs did not get what was all about. They invented a word: "balad" with the meaning of "city" to continue the frame that Abraham has founded  Mecca and the Kaba from the Quran and that this verse's meaning is  "-City of Peace," regarding Mecca.
    2/
    Quote
    I think Bonnet-Eymards makes a mistake here and should have remained on the same line of thought as with his reading of 2:125.


    About 2:125 he is... wrong. He's wrong because one does not see why in one verse "House" is an Oak or another Oak and two verses later, the Temple.
     Bonnet-Eymard:
    Quote
    The House al bayta. According to the Bible Abraham build an altar [ not a bayt] in Moreh Oak in Sichem and at the Oak of  Mamre [ ...] but it is Jacob who built headstone and name this place Bethel".

    Issues:
    1/The Bible never says that Jacob's place is  Moreh Oak in Sichem or the Oak of  Mamre
    2/ Abraham did not name any of this "bait" in the Bible nor anywhere.
     he is wrong on this. Yet he knows that House is the Temple :
    Quote
    From Josiah there exist only one bayt, the Temple :.the maqom of Abraham etc

    , the sacrifice place is the place of the Temple which is the bayt of the Quranic passage 124-127 where it starts in the place of Abraham/the maqom where God tested him  where will be build (and destroyed) the Temple.
    The worst is that he knows all of this!!! he writes it !!! Hahaha!







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