Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #8580 - December 17, 2019, 05:18 PM

Quote from: Altara on December 17, 2019, 02:37 PM
Yes............
the "Ali" concept was fabricated it is the word. A part this, He is an historical figure.

Funny because you demonstrate that Ali was not the name of that amir ; funnier is the fact that you say the same thing as Dequin but you oppose his sayings.

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Well... There are testimonies that the 8th c.Umayyads have started to organize a pilgrimage to Mecca. It is findable in academia.

Are you referring to a papyrus found at Nessana if I am correct inviting someone to attend the hajj ? Honestly, I don't see how a pilgrimmage to Mecca under the Umayyads could have happened.

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Beliefs, doctrina in islam are not my topic. My topic is the Quran. What the "muslims" have elaborated from it with the help of other religious traditions is a specific topic in itself which have nothing to see with the autho(rs) of the Quran and this one does not interest me. As I said, Dequin should write a monography about the origin of the Shia without binding it with the origin of the Quran which is another topic.

My topic is the authors of the Quran, not what are the external influences which have shaped what the "Muslims" fabricated from it in Iraq.

You are funny because the starting point was Dequin, not your work about early islam. Dequin's paper title is Early ʿAlī worship and creation of the Abbasid worldview ; he is not trying to deal with Quran origins and Quran writers.
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Reply #8581 - December 17, 2019, 05:33 PM

The Ascent of Ishmael Genealogy, Covenant, and Identity in Early Islam
https://www.academia.edu/41329340/The_Ascent_of_Ishmael_Genealogy_Covenant_and_Identity_in_Early_Islam
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This essay argues that biblical genealogy serves as a fundamental organizing principle in the Qurʾān. In particular, the Qurʾān anchors the cultic and scriptural aspects of the Prophet’s mission squarely on his community’s descent from Abraham via Ishmael. The first part of the essay marshals qurʾānic evidence in support of this claim and critiques a number of recent studies that downplay or deny the significance of Abrahamic-Ishmaelite genealogy in the Qurʾān. The second part reinforces this significance by demonstrating that Ishmael’s qurʾānic characterization as an upright prophet sharply contrasts with his predominantly negative portrayals in pre-Islamic writings. The final part shows that modern scholars initially acknowledged Abraham and Ishmael’s key ancestral and cultic roles in the Qurʾān but came to see these roles as exclusively Medinan constructs. The essay challenge this view and offers a different explanation for the Qurʾān’s varying portrayals of Abraham and Ishmael.
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Reply #8582 - December 17, 2019, 07:38 PM

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I don't see how a pilgrimage to Mecca under the Umayyads could have happened.

I have searched with the keyword "pilgrimage" in the Rachel Stroumsa dissertation "People and Identities in Nessana" I found nothing about Mecca. Academia is your friend about the Umayyad times where there are testimonies about the commencement of an organization about it in the 8 th c.
But for me this stuff is settled since there was no Mecca before Islam and therefore I do not waste my time on these details as they are not related the origin of the Quranic corpus.
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he is not trying to deal with Quran origins and Quran writers.

Then why you bring him here?
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Reply #8583 - December 17, 2019, 08:06 PM

There’s this from Petra Sijpesteijn:

An Early Umayyad Papyrus Invitation for the Ḥajj

https://www.academia.edu/10389264/An_Early_Umayyad_Papyrus_Invitation_for_the_Ḥajj

Which side are you on?
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Reply #8584 - December 17, 2019, 08:52 PM

Yes this is the one I had in mind but there is no mention of Mecca and it doesn't say what was the location of that pilgrimmage, but that was not Mecca.
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Reply #8585 - December 17, 2019, 09:02 PM

Quote from: Altara on December 17, 2019, 07:38 PM
I have searched with the keyword "pilgrimage" in the Rachel Stroumsa dissertation "People and Identities in Nessana" I found nothing about Mecca. Academia is your friend about the Umayyad times where there are testimonies about the commencement of an organization about it in the 8 th c.

No need as I see what you are refering to but Mecca isn't mentionned and it is not possible that the pilgrimmage to Mecca was organized under the Umayyads for a very simple reason.

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But for me this stuff is settled since there was no Mecca before Islam and therefore I do not waste my time on these details as they are not related the origin of the Quranic corpus.

For you yes but others might be interested to solve the whole puzzle.

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Then why you bring him here?

Because we discuss here the history of Islam, not just stuff related to the Quran despite the title of the thread.
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Reply #8586 - December 17, 2019, 09:56 PM

Quote from: Marc S on December 17, 2019, 08:52 PM
Yes this is the one I had in mind but there is no mention of Mecca and it doesn't say what was the location of that pilgrimmage, but that was not Mecca.

Where it would be in 705-717?
Mt Sinai?
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Reply #8587 - December 17, 2019, 11:01 PM

Quote from: Marc S on December 17, 2019, 09:02 PM
No need as I see what you are refering to but Mecca isn't mentionned and it is not possible that the pilgrimmage to Mecca was organized under the Umayyads for a very simple reason.

For you yes but others might be interested to solve the whole puzzle.

Your stuff will just confuse them a little more. The Quranic topic is already difficult enough....

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Because we discuss here the history of Islam, not just stuff related to the Quran despite the title of the thread.

You're wrong. One discusses of the origin of the Quran, not the history of Islam. There is a thread for that, initiated by Zeca.
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=28609.0
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Reply #8588 - December 17, 2019, 11:34 PM

Quote from: Altara on December 17, 2019, 09:56 PM

Where it would be in 705-717?
Mt Sinai?

You know the answer because the muslim tradition does talk about it but by providing a polemical explanation. However, they are forced to mention it and would have preferred to hide it.
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Reply #8589 - December 17, 2019, 11:35 PM

Quote from: Altara on December 17, 2019, 11:01 PM
You're wrong. One discusses of the origin of the Quran, not the history of Islam. There is a thread for that, initiated by Zeca.
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=28609.0

Thanks for the link but I feel early Islam history is discussed/debated much more in the Quranic thread than in that thread you indicate.
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Reply #8590 - December 18, 2019, 12:33 AM

Quote from: Marc S on December 17, 2019, 11:35 PM
Thanks for the link but I feel early Islam history is discussed/debated much more in the Quranic thread than in that thread you indicate.

Yes. I started using this thread as the place to put up links to articles on early Islam as well as the quran. I then started the other thread for anything about Islamic history that clearly isn’t about early Islam, though I haven’t been very consistent about this. I know the thread title doesn’t really fit the content of the thread, but that’s the way it is.

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Reply #8591 - December 18, 2019, 01:56 AM

Quote from: Marc S on December 17, 2019, 11:34 PM
You know the answer because the muslim tradition does talk about it but by providing a polemical explanation. However, they are forced to mention it and would have preferred to hide it.

If you think to Jerusalem, I disagree. Before, that's correct. After 692, surely not.
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Reply #8592 - December 18, 2019, 11:13 AM

Yes I do think about Jérusalem.

i assume you think it could not be after 692 because of the end of the conflict between Abd al Malik and az Zubayr. But that would mean 3 différent pilgrimmage locations over time for those muslims.
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Reply #8593 - December 18, 2019, 08:27 PM

Gabriel Said Reynolds - God Has Spoken Before: On the Recitation of the Bible in Islamic Ritual Prayer

https://www.academia.edu/36820915/_God_Has_Spoken_Before_On_the_Recitation_of_the_Bible_in_Islamic_Ritual_Prayer_Between_the_Cross_and_the_Crescent_Studies_in_Honor_of_Samir_Khalil_Samir_S.J._on_the_Occasion_of_his_Eightieth_Birthday_ed._Z._Paša_Rome_Pontifical_Oriental_Institute_2018_573-91

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Reply #8594 - December 18, 2019, 09:33 PM

Hajj

Sijpesteijn seems to have a lot of imagination and reads a lot into the papyrus message. The note really doesn't seem a directive to take up a journey of +1000 km by camel, through the desert to Mecca. Rather it's a directive to go to the towns camel market.

If anything this papyrus works against Mecca. But of course S. doesnt consider that possibility. Maybe not enough imagination after all?
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Reply #8595 - December 18, 2019, 11:40 PM

Quote from: Marc S on December 18, 2019, 11:13 AM
Yes I do think about Jérusalem.

637 Jerusalem: Arabs military leaders order to build the House. Why? Because literati around the military leaders tell them to do so.
Q 2, 127: And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! accept (this service) from us: for Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.
As long as you do not want to envisage this verse as a plausible reason of the building of the House in the Temple Mount you will not get it.
But envisaging it questions all what you think about the Quranic texts that you consider being late, etc. As you do not want moving on this, you're stuck. It's factual.
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i assume you think it could not be after 692 because of the end of the conflict between Abd al Malik and az Zubayr. But that would mean 3 different pilgrimage locations over time for those muslims.

Pilgrimages which will be erased of the memory of the people, except the 9th c. narrative. Who read them? The people? Surely not. High level scribes and authors.
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Reply #8596 - December 19, 2019, 02:51 AM

Quote from: Altara on December 18, 2019, 11:40 PM
637 Jerusalem: Arabs military leaders order to build the House. Why? Because literati around the military leaders tell them to do so.

We are not going to start that discussion again ; until there are more solid proofs, I cannot buy it nor do I buy the artificial link with Q 2:127.

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One explanation for for the Dome, which holds that 72/691–2 marks its completion, anchors its construction in the events of this still-raging civil war. According to this interpretation, which finds support in a number of relatively early histories, the war between the Marwanids (the clan of Umayyads that took its name from ‘Abd al-Malik’s father) and the Zubayrids (that is, Ibn al-Zubayr and his brothers) had made it either impossible or undesirable for Syrians to carry out the ritual obligation of the Hajj – the Pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina in Arabia. According to this reading, ‘Abd al-Malik built the Dome of the Rock as an alternative pilgrimage site. One guess holds that the building works took about three years to complete, and, as it happens, the resulting date of 69 (where one arrives by subtracting three years from the inscription date of 72) is actually mentioned by one of the accounts that supports this interpretation, in this case a thirteenth-century historian, here citing late eighth- and early ninth-century authors: “We have already said that ‘Abd al-Malik began to build it in the year 69. According to al-Waqidi (an historian who died in 823), the reason for its construction was that Ibn al-Zubayr had then taken control of Mecca and, during during the Pilgrimage season, he used to catalogue the vices of the Marwanid family, and to summon (the people) to pay homage to him (as caliph). He was eloquent, and so the people inclined towards him. ‘Abd al-Malik, therefore, prevented the people from performing the Pilgrimage” (Elad, ‘Dome’, 34, slightly modified). According to this interpretation, the Dome of the Rock thus reflects intra-Muslim politics. There are alternative interpretations, however. These explain the Dome of the Rock by adducing not intra-Muslim politics, but inter-monotheistic polemics. Whatever one makes of the precise timing of the Dome of the Rock’s construction and how it relates to Ibn al-Zubayr’s control of the Meccan sanctuary, one must account for the fact that ‘Abd al-Malik chose to site his building not merely at the heart of the Holy Land, but upon the Temple Mount – that is, Judaism’s most sacred spot.

Robinson, Chase. Abd al-Malik (Makers of the Muslim World) .

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But envisaging it questions all what you think about the Quranic texts that you consider being late, etc.

Late ? You got my thinking wrong ; they pre-existed the 7th century though not all of them.
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Reply #8597 - December 19, 2019, 10:56 AM

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You got my thinking wrong ; they pre-existed the 7th century though not all of them.

Then nothing prevent you to envisage it as an hypothesis and move the other things...
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I cannot buy it nor do I buy the artificial link with Q 2:127.

1/I don't see how it's artificial... since Q 2:127 could have been existed in 637 as you say yourself !!! :
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they pre-existed the 7th century though not all of them.

The explication I got (which join the Gallez one...) is a logic and a plausible one... nothing artificial.
2/ It is not to buy or not to buy. It deals with testing the hypothesis. That's all. You seem having had a revelation where it is impossible to test hypotheses. It is the contrary of a scholarly attitude. You're like the Muslims, no more no less. Stuck to you stuff.

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One explanation for for the Dome, which holds that 72/691–2 marks its completion, anchors its construction in the events of this still-raging civil war.

The Dome is the first building in Jerusalem?
I did not know that...
Nope it is not. Jerusalem was the first hajj after they build the House in 637 because (for me ...)of Q 2:127.

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-125- Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the Station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in Prayer)
-127- And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! accept (this service) from us: for Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

It is what they did in 637 as son of Ishmael therefore sons of Abraham that they were since ages (Jewish and Christian propaganda ...) without knowing that a guy called Zubayr will take over the stuff 50 years later as the story around the Quranic texts were developed.

Mecca/Medina did not exist at that time until the Zubayr faction invented it from the Quranic texts they have to sit their symbolic power vs ‘Abd al-Malik. As all the story comes from the Zubayr side, ‘Abd al-Malik gets it back after 692 having defeated him.
It is plausible, logic, etc...
Of course one cannot call Zubayr on his Iphone...
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Reply #8598 - December 19, 2019, 11:28 PM

Quote from: Altara on December 19, 2019, 10:56 AM
Then nothing prevent you to envisage it as an hypothesis and move the other things...

Yes nothing does prevent but the fact it doesn't make sense after careful look at it.

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1/I don't see how it's artificial... since Q 2:127 could have been existed in 637 as you say yourself !!!

Artificial because it doesn't make any link between the arabs and Jerusalem ; there is no historical tradition of arabs pilgrimmage to Jerusalem and no tradition of Ishmael having been to Jerusalem (or the place where Jerusalem was built later).

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The Dome is the first building in Jerusalem?

I just quoted this extract on the Dome of Rock to highlight that muslim tradition was forced to acknowledge that Jerusalem was a hajj destination ; I highlighted it but you didn't pick it up.

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Mecca/Medina did not exist at that time until the Zubayr faction invented it from the Quranic texts they have to sit their symbolic power vs ‘Abd al-Malik.

So, according to you, Zubayr had to invent all this stuff in order to sit their symbolic power vs Abd al Malik ? Really ?

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Likewise, those coins that depicted and praised the Persian ruler Xosrov, who ruled until 628, did not seem to offend the Lakhmid Ishmaelites, although the king was of Zoroastrian faith. Before the reform, al-Malik’s rival, the Quraysh az-Zubair, was found on a coin dated 686, identified as caliph. A coin dated 692 that bore al-Malik’s name was made of the same stamp series but said “partisan of the Caliph” and bore also the imprint “Muhammad, Apostle of God.” Al-Malik had been used on a coin dated 685 once before in connection with the prophet Muhammad. There, he was branded “governor” of his (future) enemy az-Zubair.

A. J. Deus. The Great Leap-Fraud:Social Economics of Religious Terrorism, Volume II: Islam and Secularization
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Reply #8599 - December 20, 2019, 01:39 AM

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1/I don't see how it's artificial... since Q 2:127 could have been existed in 637 as you say yourself !!!

Artificial because it doesn't make any link between the arabs and Jerusalem ;and no tradition of Ishmael having been to Jerusalem (or the place where Jerusalem was built later).

Abraham>> Ishmael >> Arabs.
Arabs were designed by Jews and Christians as sons of Ishmael therefore sons of Abraham many times before Islam. They have absorbed/interiorised this design. So when you say that there is no link, I think that something goes wrong somewhere...
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there is no historical tradition of Arabs pilgrimage to Jerusalem

So what? Why it would need historical tradition of Arabs pilgrimage to Jerusalem to see Arabs in Jerusalem in 637? An historical tradition is needed to enter Jerusalem?
Pompey got a tradition, Titus maybe?
637 is the taking over by Arabs of Jerusalem it is not a pilgrimage...
And what they do? they build a house competing with the Jews.
Who told them to do so? It comes from where?
As Q 2:127 is showing what their fathers did, ( And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House) they felt legitimate to do so...as there was nothing anymore on the Mount.

-125- Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the Station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in Prayer)
-127- And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! accept (this service) from us: for Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

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I just quoted this extract on the Dome of Rock to highlight that muslim tradition was forced to acknowledge that Jerusalem was a hajj destination ; I highlighted it but you didn't pick it up.

I'm not worried, you're used to know that I'm pick up nothing... Of course they was forced. Why Jerusalem was a hajj destination? Because there was no Mecca/Medina/Zem zem/Kaba...
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So, according to you, Zubayr had to invent all this stuff in order to sit their symbolic power vs Abd al Malik ? Really ?

You twist what I say (as usual...) He never "had to". He just invent a narrative about the "prophet"' saying that he is the one who hold the place where he lived. Hoping to gather many Iraqi around his opposition to Abd al Malik . Your " invent all this stuff " is two phrases of propaganda... Not so difficult to invent with the literati he has around him.

Thank you for giving me the summary of AJ...
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Reply #8600 - December 20, 2019, 02:56 AM

Quote from: Altara on December 20, 2019, 01:39 AM
So what? Why it would need historical tradition of Arabs pilgrimage to Jerusalem to see Arabs in Jerusalem in 637?

Arabs, like Jews, go and pray on Abraham's tomb in Hebron ; Arabs go and pray on Muhammad's tomb in Medina. Before Islam, was there any link and tradition between Arabs and Jerusalem ? The answer is no ; Arabs did go and pray to locations linked with Abraham but Jerusalem was not one of them.
Now one can think, like you, that it pop out of nowhere, and maybe you are right, but I am not convinced ; maybe I will be one day but today is not the day

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Who told them to do so? It comes from where?

Which people had a well-known purpose to build on the Temple Mount and still have ?

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You twist what I say (as usual...) He never "had to". He just invent a narrative about the "prophet"' saying that he is the one who hold the place where he lived. Hoping to gather many Iraqi around his opposition to Abd al Malik .

You pretend the purpose of Az-Zubayr was to rally Iraqis around him against Abd al Malik but Numismatics is telling us he was already in power. It does seem contradictory ; any explanation ?

However, there is another riddle to solve

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From the evidence of the coins struck in the name of Abdallah bn Zubayr, we can infer that his appointment as emir of those who grant safety/who led the faith came to an end in Darajbjird in the year 60 of the Arabs. Immediately afterwards, he was mentionned as a provincial ruler, but with no title, in Ardarsir-Khurra from the years 65-67 of the Arabs. In Kirman his name is found on coins from the years 62-69 of the Arabs. Coins from the years 63 and 66 of Istakhr in the Persis. This shows that he had been sidelined and the leadership has been taken over by the more radical, messianic "Servant of the Lord of the Day of Judgement ('Abd al-Malik).

From Ugarit to Samarra - Volker Popp - Early Islam - A critical reconstruction based on contemporary sources - Edited by Karl-Heinz Ohlig
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Reply #8601 - December 20, 2019, 11:01 AM

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Arabs, like Jews, go and pray on Abraham's tomb in Hebron ;

Why the Jews go and pray on Abraham's tomb in Hebron? Because they are forbidden of Jerusalem since 135.

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Before Islam, was there any link and tradition between Arabs and Jerusalem ?

Of course, a natural link. What is interesting, it is that you do not see it. It is normal, you're not trained in history of culture : you see only what is apparent and it is what you say:
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The answer is no ; Arabs did go and pray to locations linked with Abraham but Jerusalem was not one of them.

The natural link is that Jerusalem is the place of Abraham in Jewish traditions.The Temple is build there because of the ligature of Isaac it is the traditional view of the Jews. Arabs are sons of Abraham. The link is there. But Jerusalem has no Temple any more and is hold by Christianity. So there is no pilgrimage.

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Now one can think, like you, that it pop out of nowhere,

I did not say anything like that (TM).

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You pretend the purpose of Az-Zubayr was to rally Iraqis around him against Abd al Malik

Yes.
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but Numismatics is telling us he was already in power.
It does seem contradictory ; any explanation ?

When you are in power you're in peace. Zubayr was in power in Damascus, as Muawiya was in power in Iraq? Surely not.
Zubayr had enough support to mint coins vs the Umayyad occupation in Iraq but he was not in "power". He was revolting against Damascus who hold Iraq since Muawiya.
Iraqis will take their revenge in 750.

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From the evidence of the coins struck in the name of Abdallah bn Zubayr, we can infer that his appointment as emir of those who grant safety/who led the faith came to an end in Darajbjird in the year 60 of the Arabs

.

Popp complicates what is simple as usual...Zubayr was revolting.

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This shows that he had been sidelined and the leadership has been taken over by the more radical, messianic "Servant of the Lord of the Day of Judgement ('Abd al-Malik).

'Abd al-Malik defeated him.Simple.
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Reply #8602 - December 20, 2019, 12:29 PM

Quote from: Marc S on December 17, 2019, 04:56 PM
I don't really see the point of your comments. It is a fact that Quran is a piece of islam ; even quranists who claim ahadith are all wrong and only the Quran is valid must use them to know about Muhammad ; if you want to know how many times a day, you need to pray, it is not in the Quran,etc,etc.....

Oops I am missing Marc S posts., well Marc that is the reason I write responses to your posts .and that is., TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU WILL GET & SEE MY POINT OF VIEW .

any ways., Marc_s often throws some nuggets and some rants but mostly hand waving statements that have no relevance to real early history of Islam and to the origins of Quran.,

dear Marc., you must realize real meaning of the words you are using... "Quran., Quranists., ahadith., Muhammad ".. You are using those words as if a Muslim Mullah or Muslim imam or Islamic Dawagandist such as that Indian ZakirJoker or that Converted Greek Geek Hamza Tzortzis uses to argue with non-Muslim folks preaching Islam ., now let me answer your 3 points individually

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1). It is a fact that Quran is a piece of islam

Please realize .. QURANISTS WERE NOT THERE from the beginning of Islam to all the way to 20th century , they were born in the mid 20th century ..

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2). Even quranists who claim ahadith are all wrong and only the Quran is valid ~~must use them to know about Muhammad~~

No.. Nope., they do not need hadith for understanding the meaning the word "Muhammad" and its connection to the Prophet of Islam . Let me put this way to you .,

"Any Muslim who needs hadith to understand ORIGINAL QURAN is NOT Quranist neither he is Muslim., He is an idiot and Islamic religious bigot and following cultural Islam NOT ORIGINAL QURAN.. "

And ..and any Non-Muslim who is using hadith to Insult Islam is also a bigot and hater

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3). ; if you want to know how many times a day, you need to pray, it is not in the Quran,etc,et

well what it means is., these fellows who think they need hadith for prayer times and praying allah/god whatever neither they read Quran and if they read it, they did not understand it .,

A believer and A Quranic Muslim of original Quran can pray as many times as he/she wants and at any place and anywhere and at any direction., These FOOLS WITH STUPID RULES .. go to mosques.. pray five times at specific rimes all these yadi..yadi..prayers like

Fajr. 05:56 AM.
Sunrise. 07:16 AM.
Dhuhr. 11:57 AM.
Asr. 02:20 PM.
Maghrib. 04:37 PM.
Isha. 05:58 PM.
Qiyam. 01:29 AM.

all that yadi yad is becaue of mullahs and rulers., and that is ,....... FOR GENERATING BRAINLESS MUSLIMS WHO FOLLOW THE RULES OF MULLAHS PREACHING IN MOSQUES & ON THE ROADS AND AND THESE MULLAHS WERE/ARE SUPPORTED BY ISLAMIC RULERS TO MAKE POLITICAL ISLAM .....

I hope you understand My understanding of Quran and Islam dear Marc S

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #8603 - December 20, 2019, 01:00 PM

well this post is a good one from Altara.. good responses to Marc doubts but I don't get this question
Quote from: Altara on December 20, 2019, 11:01 AM

Why the Jews go and pray on Abraham's tomb in Hebron? Because they are forbidden of Jerusalem since 135.

I didn't get that .. was that sarcastic question ..?? you really do not know the answer??

But it is an interesting question w.r.t the date when actually Islamism Rulers eliminated Jewish folks praying at that site and history of that city Hebron which is at present in Palestine southern West Bank, ~ 20miles to the south of Jerusalem in the Judaean Mountains, It is also famous for Murders and mayhem

As we know that Jews and Muslims both claim the so-called " burial site of Abraham in Hebron " as their own. and Hebron is very very famous NOT because of it is birth place /buried place of those Jewish patriarchs and matriarchs such as ....Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob .........but because of THIS HERO FROM AMERIKA ..........

But Muslims/or non-Muslims specially Christians and Jews ., it is worth reading and worth learning about that city Hebron ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UT7nWHMeMA

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #8604 - December 20, 2019, 01:31 PM

Yeez - that video is from a school in the US ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron_Academy ). It has nothing whatever to do with Hebron - the one in Palestine - or with this thread.

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Reply #8605 - December 20, 2019, 02:22 PM

Quote from: zeca on December 20, 2019, 01:31 PM
Yeez - that video is from a school in the US ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron_Academy ). It has nothing whatever to do with Hebron - the one in Palestine - or with this thread.

I know that zeca I know ., well don't you see in that post how that AMRIKA produces such wonderful songs as well as produces fellows like Baruch Goldsteins and osama bin ladens and Anwar al-Awlakis and and play both side of the games..

But..but give me links on time line + history of that city Hebron .. I would appreciate that

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Altara
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Reply #8606 - December 20, 2019, 02:34 PM

Quote
I didn't get that .. was that sarcastic question ..?? you really do not know the answer??

To put in perspective the historical landscape.
- mundi
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Reply #8607 - December 20, 2019, 03:31 PM

Quran 2:127

I am starting to buy into the link. The masjid al Haram of Quran could be Jerusalem and the total focus of these first 5 surahs could be Jerusalem.

The first hajj being Jerusalem? That is something different again. What points to that?

Let's look at Sijpelseijn's article again. It talks about a hajj as the local fair, could be anything/anywhere.
- Marc S
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Reply #8608 - December 20, 2019, 05:00 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on December 20, 2019, 12:29 PM

I hope you understand My understanding of Quran and Islam dear Marc S

I think you got lost in your own thoughts at some stage ; you created a controversy that didn't exist, at least in my mind, and now you have sailed to another destination.
- Marc S
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Reply #8609 - December 20, 2019, 05:10 PM

Quote from: Altara on December 20, 2019, 11:01 AM

Why the Jews go and pray on Abraham's tomb in Hebron? Because they are forbidden of Jerusalem since 135.

Quote from: yeezevee on December 20, 2019, 01:00 PM
well this post is a good one from Altara.. good responses to Marc doubts but I don't get this question I didn't get that .. was that sarcastic question ..?? you really do not know the answer??

No they pray there because his tomb is there. That is the reason they go to that place.

Anyway, you both didn't understand my point so let me try and make it clear (if I can) :

- Arabs know they were related to Abraham,
- that is why we can see them going and praying on locations related to Abraham (Mamre, Hebron) and we know this from history,
- now I am to believe that out of the blue Arabs because they read a verse in a text go to a place they were never linked with and build something there,
- because I find this hard to believe (things don't pop up like this) and because that verse is cryptic at best, I cannot buy into this explanation and i favor a more classical one based on sources that have historical grounds
- I might be wrong but I cannot base my rationale on thin air,
- So I was taking the examples of Hebron and Medina just to show that there were traditions based on clear facts and not some unknown reasons that we have to guess.

Quote
When you are in power you're in peace. Zubayr was in power in Damascus, as Muawiya was in power in Iraq? Surely not.
Zubayr had enough support to mint coins vs the Umayyad occupation in Iraq but he was not in "power". He was revolting against Damascus who hold Iraq since Muawiya.

.Zubayr was revolting.

This is the muslim tradition you are quoting and even that tradition hardly hide that az Zubayr might have been the rightful ruler ; numismatics (see AJ Deus) confirm this.
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

Marc S

Reply #8580 - December 17, 2019, 05:18 PM

Altara

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Altara

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zeca

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Altara

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Marc S

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Marc S

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zeca

Reply #8590 - December 18, 2019, 12:33 AM

Altara

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Marc S

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zeca

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mundi

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Altara

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Marc S

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Altara

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Marc S

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Altara

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yeezevee

Reply #8602 - December 20, 2019, 12:29 PM

yeezevee

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zeca

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yeezevee

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mundi

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Marc S

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