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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 636390 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8520 - December 09, 2019, 05:46 PM

    I'm sceptic about a theory that is already there but needs another 6 years to be put on paper. It's probably as good as Gross's. Right here, wrong there.

    mundiiiiiiiiiii... STOP .. stop hitting people below the belt .,

    you did/ often do that to me., it is not nice. it is painful..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8521 - December 09, 2019, 05:50 PM

    I love you all!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8522 - December 09, 2019, 05:55 PM

    I love you all!


    yes Love is all that is needed

    click and watch it dear mundi

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8523 - December 09, 2019, 07:51 PM

    Heraclius and the return of the Holy Cross

    In two short studies published simultaneously with mutual acknowledgements, Holger Klein and the late Paul Speck have proposed a new interpretation of two entries in the final part of the Easter Chronicle. While the two authors diverge in some arguments, they both conclude that the Exaltation of the Holy Cross was celebrated in Constantinople in September 629 and that the relic of the Cross was returned by the Persians to Byzantium quite some time before that date, and not in 630, as has often been asserted by their predecessors.1 I adhere to this basic finding, and yet I must also recognize that the arguments put forward by Cyril Mango and, in much more detail, by Bernard Flusin in favor of the Cross’ return to Jerusalem in 630 keep much of their strength (Klein and Speck have barely addressed these arguments). The only possible resolution of this paradox resides in an even more paradoxical admission that the Holy Cross was returned to Jerusalem twice, in 629 and in 630.

    https://www.academia.edu/10124428/Heraclius_and_the_return_of_the_Holy_Cross
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8524 - December 09, 2019, 10:04 PM

    "Moreover, Dequin has found evidence that it was not until after the ʿAbbāsids had taken
    over power that the pilgrimage to Mecca was established "

    Weed.


    Funny that you would disagree on that and go to the point of thinking this is a total non sense.


    Quote
    "According to Dequin, both terms were originally gnostic concepts denoting redemptory figures, originally going back to Christological notions."

    Weed.




    Well you should remember what you said a couple of months back when you read a commentary on the mahdi.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8525 - December 09, 2019, 10:06 PM

    I'm sceptic about a theory that is already there but needs another 6 years to be put on paper. It's probably as good as Gross's. Right here, wrong there.


    Well he probably wants to release it with all the necessary proofs of all his assertions ; the thing is that it was supposed to be released in a couple of years 1 year back.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8526 - December 09, 2019, 11:02 PM


    the thing is that it was supposed to be released in a couple of years 1 year back.


    Did  I say that (TM) ? Wink Possible. Things are maybe different now as some interesting stuff has came and will come. One thing is to write something, another is to be up to date regarding certain specific topics. Therefore thanks, I won't give any more a date Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8527 - December 09, 2019, 11:24 PM

    Guillaume Dye in the Coran des historiens/ Koran of Historians has an interesting subtitle in his chapter : The Quranic corpus: context and composition
    This subtitle is : A confusing text
    Interesting. Wink
    Besides, interestingly  Amir-Moezzi does not comment any sura. Not one. Bizarre.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8528 - December 10, 2019, 12:12 AM

    Quote
    In recent years, issues of radiocarbon dating have been somewhat overshadowed by the biomolecular revolution, in particular the contributions of aDNA and stable isotopes. Nevertheless, we believe that radiocarbon dating still plays a significant role in the network of scientific methods currently changing the entire discipline of archaeology. Improvements in radiocarbon chronologies occurring in the last two decades, especially Bayesian probability modelling, the growing pool of datable materials and new theoretical approaches, are widening our interpretational possibilities for understanding the past. Answering the fundamental question 'When?' with ever-increasing accuracy and precision enables us to produce chronologies on the scale of people's lifetimes. Growing numbers of available radiocarbon data allow us to explore entirely new perspectives at multiple levels. We can construct new narratives of long-term processes as well as identify short events and tipping points, creating a more flexible, interactive image of the past. In this session, we aim to discuss all aspects, challenges and also potential and real pitfalls of radiocarbon dating. We welcome contributions addressing: 1) New achievements in radiocarbon dating regarding materials, precision and techniques 2) Chronological modelling 3) The relationship between relative and absolute chronology 4) Ways in which new chronologies have influenced our interpretative inferences 5) Limitations of the radiocarbon method A range of contexts and spatial units could be addressed, from individual sites to regions or periods.


    https://www.academia.edu/41199652/CALL_FOR_PAPERS_EAA2020_Budapest_Session_241_Out_of_date_Current_advances_in_radiocarbon_dating
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8529 - December 10, 2019, 12:13 AM

    https://www.academia.edu/31247577/Theophanes_Oriental_Source_What_can_we_learn_from_Syriac_Historiography
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8530 - December 10, 2019, 10:48 AM


    well that has good story of history  on The ghost/ ghost writings of  of Theophilus dear Marc.,

    Quote
    ..........If we accept the assumption that Theophilus’ work reached Theophanes, we havethen to explain how Theophilus’ Syriac history was transmitted to Theophanes in Constantinople in Greek. It has been suggested that George Syncellus or some other learned monk in the Palestinian monasteries renowned for their multilingualism madea translation of it and that George brought it along with him when he fled to the capital and handed it over to Theophanes. Another possible transmission channel, however, from Baghdad to Constantinople, has been overlooked although it could shed a different light on the process.
     
     We have to remember that Theophilus’ astrological works were actually brought from Baghdad to Constantinople ca. 775, presumably by the so-called Pseudo-Stephanus of Byzantium, who composed a horoscope of Islam containing historical data.
     
     Theophilus’ chronicle could then have followed the same path. This, however,is difficult to prove'......


    So questions to you dear Marc

    1).  is that book/booklet better than Peter Kirby's work on External References to Islam??

    2). And Marc.,  do you or do you NOT believe in that    story of "Chronicles of  Theophilus of Edessa(690-780??)  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8531 - December 10, 2019, 07:17 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1204339959836086272
    Quote
    An interesting rasm mistake in the modern print editions of the Quran. Q20:94 yā-bna-ʾumma/i "O son of my mother" is spelled without the initial ʾalif of ibn in print editions.

    This spelling is unusual, because usually alif al-waṣl is retained when precedes by prefixes.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8532 - December 11, 2019, 01:51 PM

    Guillaume Dye ....................
    .
    .......... Amir-Moezzi ..............

    Hello Altara .. how are you doing? what happened .. you responded to my post
    well that has good story of history  on The ghost/ ghost writings of  of Theophilus dear Marc.,

    So questions to you dear Marc

    1).  is that book/booklet better than Peter Kirby's work on External References to Islam??

    2). And Marc.,  do you or do you NOT believe in that    story of "Chronicles of  Theophilus of Edessa(690-780??)  


    and you deleted your post .. why? I ask you why?

    .. IS THERE ANY SECRET IN ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION of your own post?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8533 - December 11, 2019, 04:36 PM

    Well that post had not real importance as I have noted that Marc does not comment any more, contenting himself in sarcasm or asking enigma to which he knows the answers.
    Therefore, do no wait from him answers to your questions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8534 - December 11, 2019, 07:14 PM

    Marc,

    Please comment. I enjoy your comments!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8535 - December 11, 2019, 07:37 PM

     Heraclius in 625

    L'itinéraire d'Héraclius et la chronologie de ses batailles durant deux années clef de la campagne perse, 625-626, subissent ici une révision, le témoignage de Théophane étant revu à la lumière de celui de Pseudo-Sébéos. Une année de campagne,placée par Théophane sub a.m. 61 15, se réduit désormais à deux mois d'hostilités durant l'hiver 625, et les événements décrits sub a.m. 6116 se placent dans les mois qui suivent. Cette analyse tenant compte tant des réalités du terrain que des données des sources élimine les contradictions du récit de Théophane qui ont jusqu'ici défié les commentateurs.
    Abstract
    REB 60 2002 France p. 189-197Constantin Zuckerman, Heraclius in 625. — Comparing the evidence of the Ps. -Sebeos with that of Theophanes, the author revises the itinerary of Heraclius and the chronology of his battles during the key years of the Persian campaign (625-626). One year's campaign in Theophanes, A. M. 61 15, is reduced to two months of hostilities during the winter of 625, and the eventsdescribed in A. M. 61 16 to the following two months. This analysis eliminates certain contradictions in Theophanes's account which have hitherto puzzled commentators.

    https://www.academia.edu/2108638/Heraclius_in_625
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8536 - December 11, 2019, 10:50 PM

    1).  is that book/booklet better than Peter Kirby's work on External References to Islam??


    Peter Kirby's is a list of sources refering to Islam while the Chronicle of Theophanes is a chronicle talking about events focused on the Byzantine empire and using some sources ; you cannot compare them as they do complete each other as regards to the arab conquest. .

    Quote
    2). And Marc.,  do you or do you NOT believe in that    story of "Chronicles of  Theophilus of Edessa(690-780??)  


    Though late it is an interesting source to read in light of other sources. Yes it is filled with arab stories but it does also give an byzantine view on the arabs though, in one paragraph, a different interpretation and translation of one word depending of who you take the text from does give a totally different perspective on the arabs and what their religion at the time of the Umayyad was.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8537 - December 11, 2019, 10:56 PM

    Well that post had not real importance as I have noted that Marc does not comment any more, contenting himself in sarcasm or asking enigma to which he knows the answers.
    Therefore, do no wait from him answers to your questions.


    Sorry but I have a full time job that is not related to this forum.

    You also make riddles but it seems you don't like and don't want to put much effort when facing one from someone else.

    Everyone studying islam know what is the role of the quraysh in the islamic tradition (they are the keepers of the house of God) ; it is then not difficult to find who has the same role in the Bible, and who among those people do wear a name that sound like quraysh ; this then makes me think that, as the Quran is just an arabic translation of biblical, midrashic, apocryphia texts with some rewriting, the name quraysh is a biblical term and was never the name of an arab tribe from which emerged an arab prophet ; the people who wrote the islamic legend once again twisted the true meaning of the quranic texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8538 - December 12, 2019, 11:41 AM

    Quote
    1, Peter Kirby's is a list of sources refering to Islam while the Chronicle of Theophanes is a chronicle talking about events focused on the Byzantine empire and using some sources ; you cannot compare them as they do complete each other as regards to the arab conquest. .


    Quote
    2, Though late it is an interesting source to read in light of other sources. Yes it is filled with arab stories but it does also give an byzantine view on the arabs though, in one paragraph, a different interpretation and translation of one word depending of who you take the text from does give a totally different perspective on the arabs and what their religion at the time of the Umayyad was.


    hello Marc.,  you put lot of food on the plate to eat ,,  but I guess either I was NOT clear or you didn't understand the questions .. so let me repeat question by question..

    Question_1
    well that has good story of history  on The ghost/ ghost writings of  of Theophilus dear Marc.,

    1).  is that book/booklet better than Peter Kirby's work on External References to Islam??


    well there my question   was NOT about Theophanes  Chronicles   but on the reference you gave in your post

      My question to you was   NOT ABOUT WHAT  Theophanes  transmitted around year 813 on Islam/Muhammad  from Theophilus of Edessa writings.,   but I was trying to compare the booklet/publications of  your link  reference of Muriel Debié ((Theophanes’ “Oriental Source”: What can we learn from Syriac Historiography?))..

    So it was about Peter Kirby's   Vs  Muriel Debié   writings on available literature of early Islam   from  the Chronicle of Theophanes .,.. I hope you know "on that early Islam " Theophanes  allegedly copied from what was  written by Theophilus and you also know Chronicle of Theophanes  has lot more than what Theophilus allegedly wrote ..

    and.....and that is the reason I highlighted  the words "The ghost/ ghost writings of  of Theophilus"
    well that has good story of history  on The ghost/ ghost writings of  of Theophilus dear Marc., 

      for you in that response ..

    So again questions to you  on just Question 1.

    1)  whose work is better ?  Peter Kirby's work on   "External References to Islam"  or that booklet of  Muriel Debié   publication  "  on available literature of early Islam   from  the Chronicle of Theophanes .??

    2),  Did you read that Muriel Debié complete publication? (THE LINK OF YOUR POST)what does it say about Muhammad??

    and I am glad to read you ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8539 - December 12, 2019, 12:28 PM

    Quote
    You also make riddles but it seems you don't like and don't want to put much effort when facing one from someone else.


    As you said :
    Quote
    I have a full time job that is not related to this forum.


    As I already said: Therefore your riddles are not linked to a general work that you will publish and on which you pass many time . That is why I (sometimes) make some to encourage reflection because I do not want to deploy all my stuff which would necessitate to write it in this forum and stopping wanting publish it one day. All of this is understandable in my position. Are you in the same position than me ? At all.  You have a full time job that is not related to this forum and to this field, but you behave as if it was the case with the many riddles you make which have become through time your main content.
    And, sorry, but because of the specific position I have here (see above),  I have not to respond to riddles of someone who would have the same position than me here (and I explained why many times, see above) whereas he does not have it in the field :  
    Quote
    I have a full time job that is not related to this forum.

     That is why I
    Quote
    don't like and don't want to put much effort when facing one from  someone else you.


    At last something concrete:

    Quote
    Everyone studying islam know what is the role of the quraysh in the islamic tradition (they are the keepers of the house of God)


    What can say   the Islamic tradition about Quraysh has (for me...) no importance as it did not exist and that the islamic tradition have no knowledge from where comes the Quranic corpus.

    Quote
    ; it is then not difficult to find who has the same role in the Bible,

     

    It is more interesting: I do not know. Thanks to tell us what you think it is.

    Quote
    and who among those people do wear a name that sound like quraysh


    I do not know. Thanks to tell us what you think it is (with the biblical references).

    Quote
    ; this then makes me think that, as the Quran is just an arabic translation of biblical, midrashic, apocryphia texts with some rewriting,


     Where do you think it comes from?

    Quote
    the name quraysh is a biblical term


    Thanks to give the references.

    Quote
    and was never the name of an arab tribe from which emerged an arab prophet


    That's correct.

    Quote
    ; the people who wrote the islamic legend once again twisted the true meaning of the quranic texts.


    It is a plot then? They do knew the true meaning of the Quranic texts?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8540 - December 12, 2019, 01:22 PM


    well along with  that  Muriel Debié ((Theophanes’ “Oriental Source”: What can we learn from Syriac Historiography?)).. let me add some references of  chronicle of theophanes confessor itself

    Those who are interested  in reading through The Chronicle of Theophanes  Confessor  itself they must go through that  850 pages of book by  Cyril Mango and Roger Scott 

    1. The chronicle of Theophanes Confessor : Byzantine and Near Eastern history, A.D. 284-813.PDF Translated  with  Introduction  and Commentary by CYRIL   MANGO   and  ROGER  SCOTT  with the assistance  of Geoffrey Greatrex CLARENDON  PRESS     •    OXFORD    1997

    2. The Chronicle Of Theophanes .pdf English translation of anni mundi   with introduction
    and notes,  by Harry Turtledove
      University of Pennsylvania Press  Philadelphia  1982

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8541 - December 12, 2019, 01:46 PM

    Well that post had not real importance as I have noted that Marc does not comment any more, contenting himself in sarcasm or asking enigma to which he knows the answers. Therefore, do no wait from him answers to your questions.

    forget Marc on that "The Chronicle of Theophanes  Confessor"  but in general the point/question  you raised in that deleted  post is important to  put forward alternate theories and  explore early Islam formation ., The point was about

    1). where did   Theophanes got the material to write on Islam specially on Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) of Islam ?? .

    2). Did he(Theophane) actually read what those ghost/ ghost writings of  of Theophilus  or he just wrote what he was told to write by the Islamic  rulers at that time??

    So on that I wonder whether you read the work of   Muriel Debié that Marc posted

    if you didn't read that  please scan through it.,

    And DO NOT GET DISAPPOINTED WHAT YOU HAVE NOT DONE or WHAT YOU DON'T HAVE dear Altara ., May be I am  fool when it comes to exploring religion/their origins/ their books  from what ACADEMICS WROTE/WRITE ., But I have written plenty of reviews and peer reviewed publications in basic sciences.,  and and  I believe what you are going to write on the origins of early Islam is going to stun many academics  that wrote /spent their lives on exploring the usual story of Muhammad from Islamic sources ..

    My only worry is some one else might take your ball  and run through the goal post ., so keep tight and keep working...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8542 - December 12, 2019, 03:52 PM

    Quote
    1). where did  Theophanes got the material to write on Islam specially on Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) of Islam ??


    Theophanes (d.817-18, Roman empire) get it from Theophilus of Edessa (d.785), who got it from Muslims historiographers, as he served as an astrologer/astronomer in the court of the caliphs al-Manṣūr (754–75) and al-Mahdi (775–85). Theophilus is the plausibly source of many people : Theophanes  the Confessor (d.818), Agapius of Hierapolis, of his Arabic name Mahbūb ibn-Qūṣṭānṭīn (d.941), Michel the Syrian (d.1199) and The Anonymous Syriac Chronicle until 1234 AD. Here is how Theophilus of Edessa tells Muhammad according to The Anonymous Syriac Chronicle until 1234 :

    Quote
    When he (Muḥammad) had reached the age and height of a young man, he began, from Yathrib his city, to come and go to Palestine for trade, to buy and sell. Having become accustomed to the region, he was attracted to the religion of the one God and returned to the people of his tribe. He proposed this belief to them. He persuaded a small number of them to join him. In addition, he praised to them the excellence of the land of Palestine, telling them: "It is because of the belief in the one God that this land so good and fertile has been given to them. "And he added: "If you listen to me, God will give you a good land where milk and honey flow. "As he wanted to strengthen his word, he led a troop of those who had joined him, and he began to climb towards the land of Palestine, attacking, devastating and looting. They returned loaded (with spoils) without having suffered any damage, and they were not frustrated by what he had promised them. From then on, driven by the eagerness to possess, they made a habit of it. They began to go up again to loot, and to come back. Those who had not yet joined him saw that those who had submitted to him enjoyed abundant wealth, and they were trained to submit to him without resistance. Then, as the men who followed him had become a very large troop, he no longer led them (himself) to loot and remained in Yathrib, his city, in honors.

    Quote
    2). Did he(Theophane) actually read what those ghost/ ghost writings of  of Theophilus  or he just wrote what he was told to write by the Islamic  rulers at that time??


    (For me...) Theophane has read Theophile and has copied it. Theophile was a Christian like him, therefore there is no perceptible reason to think that he would have changed something about Muhammad's story.
    Theophane was in the Roman empire, he never had (to my knowledge) Muslims writing (in Arabic...) in hands.
    Quote
    so keep tight and keep working...


    I do.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8543 - December 12, 2019, 09:58 PM

    Theophanes (d.817-18, Roman empire) get it from Theophilus of Edessa (d.785), who got it from Muslims historiographers, as he served as an astrologer/astronomer in the court of the caliphs al-Manṣūr (754–75) and al-Mahdi (775–85). Theophilus is the plausibly source of many people : Theophanes  the Confessor (d.818), Agapius of Hierapolis, of his Arabic name Mahbūb ibn-Qūṣṭānṭīn (d.941), Michel the Syrian (d.1199) and The Anonymous Syriac Chronicle until 1234 AD. Here is how Theophilus of Edessa tells Muhammad according to The Anonymous Syriac Chronicle until 1234 :
    Quote
    ...........When he (Muḥammad) had reached the age and height of a young man, he began, from Yathrib his city, to come and go to Palestine for trade, to buy and sell. Having become accustomed to the region, he was attracted to the religion of the one God and returned to the people of his tribe. He proposed this belief to them. He persuaded a small number of them to join him. In addition, he praised to them the excellence of the land of Palestine, telling them: "It is because of the belief in the one God that this land so good and fertile has been given to them. "And he added: "If you listen to me, God will give you a good land where milk and honey flow. "As he wanted to strengthen his word, he led a troop of those who had joined him, and he began to climb towards the land of Palestine, attacking, devastating and looting. They returned loaded (with spoils) without having suffered any damage, and they were not frustrated by what he had promised them. From then on, driven by the eagerness to possess, they made a habit of it. They began to go up again to loot, and to come back. Those who had not yet joined him saw that those who had submitted to him enjoyed abundant wealth, and they were trained to submit to him without resistance. Then, as the men who followed him had become a very large troop, he no longer led them (himself) to loot and remained in Yathrib, his city, in honors.........



    (For me...) Theophane has read Theophile and has copied it. Theophile was a Christian like him, therefore there is no perceptible reason to think that he would have changed something about Muhammad's story.
    Theophane was in the Roman empire, he never had (to my knowledge) Muslims writing (in Arabic...) in hands.
    I do.

    Not sure where you got that in the quote..... but assuming that was written by Theophile ., you must have NOT read that Theophanes’ “Oriental Source”: What can we learn from Syriac Historiography? written by Muriel  Debié    which Marc linked in his post ..

    Please read page 370 of her publication

    Quote
    A more cautious—or sceptical as some would put it—attitude is to try to identify asfar as possible what material can securely be attributed to Theophilus and what is likelyto have transited through what could have been more a history of contemporary eventsthan a chronicle as such. It is along this line that we would like to review the evidencewe have about Theophilus

     

    on that page she gives nice diagram where she says Proven transmission and assumed transmission of  Theophilus work to different people

    Quote
    Theophilus of Edessa (690-780)...... to .............. Theophanes(813)..................font=Verdana]ASSUMED TRANSMISSION[/u[/font]

    Theophilus  of Edessa(690-780) ...... to .............. Barhebraeus(1225/6–1286)..................font=Verdana]ASSUMED TRANSMISSION[/u[/font]

    Theophilus  of Edessa (690-780) ...... to ..............Agapius of Manbij(10th c)..................Proven transmission

    Theophilus of Edessa (690-780)...... to ..............Dionysius of Tellmahre(d. 845)...to......Michael the Syrian(1166–99)...Proven transmission

    Theophilus of Edessa (690-780)...... to ..............Dionysius of Tellmahre(d. 845)...to......Chronicle of 1234........Proven transmission


    So even Academics question the validity of material transmission to Theophanes ., Now coming to that Anonymous Syriac Chronicle at 1234.. That is already year 1234.,   some 600 years after the death alleged Prophet of Islam and all that hadith stories in Arabic were freely floating around ..  I say the further you go from the time of death of Alleged Prophet of Islam *(PBUN) one should be more and more careful  careful on exploration of early Islam  through these so-called transmissions

    Quote


    I guess the best one to read that on may be Ph.D. thesis of  Andy Hilkens The Anonymous Syriac Chronicle up to the Year 1234 and its Sources    I have not read through it but I like reading Ph.D. thesis of a student more than that of  a publication from a faculty on a given subject....
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8544 - December 13, 2019, 10:52 AM

    Quote
    Now coming to that Anonymous Syriac Chronicle at 1234.. That is already year 1234., some 600 years after the death alleged Prophet of Islam and all that hadith stories in Arabic were freely floating around ..  I say the further you go from the time of death of Alleged Prophet of Islam *


     Debié p.373:

    Quote
    It seems taken for granted in recent scholarship that the now lost chronicle of Theophilus of Edessa (695–780) is the common source shared by  Theophanes—who supposedly had access to it through a translation into Greek—, by the Syriac chronicle of Michael the Syrian (Mich. Syr.) and the anonymous Chronicle of 1234 (Chron. 1234), and by Agapius of Menbidj (Agap.) who read it in Syriac and integrated it in his Arabic chronicle.



    You see that Chron. 1234 does not take its information in 1234. But from Theophilus (d.780-85) via and Dionysius of Tell-Mahre  (d.845).

    She adds the topic of the paper which is not "from where Theophilus got his informations about Islam ":
    Their topic is to see if one can reconstruct the Theophilus text and his Roman-Syriac sources. Not Muslims:

    Quote
    A reconstruction of Theophilus’ text and even a tentative study of its sources has been attempted, and countless publications on the period talk about Theophilus and his chronicle as if we knew his text, its sources and posterity and could get a reasonable idea of what it looked like and of the historical material it transmitted.


    The question: from where Theophilus got his informations about Islam  (which is my topic) is not their topic, because it is evident that it is Muslims which provide them.

     Andy Hilkens, p.8.:

    Quote
    Excerpts from Chron. 1234 have also been translated in various modern European languages (English, French and Russian) and published in reconstructions of the History of Dionysius of Tell-Mahre, in collections of material attributed to Theophilus of Edessa, in monographs on the history of the Crusades,11 and various other events.


    p.12.:
    Quote
    The reader should keep in mind that the chronicle was written from the Syriac Orthodox perspective. Appropriating material from other sources, some (ultimately) written by authors of other cultures (Jewish and Muslim) or other confessions (e.g. Theophilus of Edessa,a Maronite), the Syriac Orthodox author of created his own version of history, his own, Syriac Orthodox, interpretation of events, by emphasising certain aspects and diminishing others. Incorrect information could also be added, or inconsistencies or inconvenient truths could be filtered out.


    n.12:
    Quote
    Theophilus of Edessa. was a source for  Dionysius of Tell-Mahre whose History was used by the Anonymous Chronicler, the account of the Trojan war (see chapter 25.5) may also have come from Theophilus of Edessa.


    p.13:
    Quote
    the Anonymous Chronicler had a wide range of sources at his disposal, not only chronicles and histories, but also apocryphal writings and saints’ lives, letters and literary texts. For this reason, the bulk of this volume is devoted to an analysis of the sources of Chron. 1234


    p.423.

    Quote
    The same process of intercultural exchange and parallel transmissions of historical information is visible in the case of Chron. 1234’s Syriac and Arabic sources. Though some Islamic Arabic historical material reached Chron. 1234 via the History of Dionysius of Tell-Mahre, the Anonymous Chronicler also had direct access to an Arabic Islamic source on the Muslim-Arab conquest of Syria and information about certain caliphs, and may have known of certain Arabic texts, such as the Dialogues of Theodore Abu Qurra, the writings of the poet al-Mutanabbi, and an astronomical work written by the caliph al-Ma’mun.


    p.424:

    Quote
    These trends (fusing material from different sources, staying true to sources, but sometimes paraphrasing longer narratives) are visible in the Anonymous Chronicler’s use of now lost sources, such as the History of Dionysius of Tell-Mahre.


    p.425:
    Quote
    Lastly, some words must be devoted to two subjects which have taken up the majority of this dissertation (together Andronicus): the influence of the Book of Jubilees on Chron. 1234, and the hypothesis that a now lost seventh-, eighth, or early ninth-century Greek historical source was used by Theophanes and a Syriac chronicler, possibly Ignatius of Melitene, whose work was used by Michael the Great and the Anonymous Chronicler.
    Let us recapitulate the latter theory first. Firstly, I have shown that the fragments of the early sixth-century Ecclesiastical History of Theodore Lector in Michael’s Chronicle and in Chron. 1234 could not have been transmitted into Syriac via John of Ephesus, because they passed through the seventh-century Epitome of Church Histories first. Secondly, I have suggested that these fragments of the Epitome reached Michael and the Anonymous Chronicler via the same Syriac source as the fragments of the Ecclesiastical History of Philostorgius. Thirdly, the presence of this material in Theophanes’ Chronographia, in similar combinations with material from the Epitome, indicates that the author of this unknown Syriac source found this material in a Greek source and was not personally responsible for the fusion of material from Philostorgius and the Epitome. Fourthly, on the basis that at least one fragment of Philostorgius survives in the Syriac chronicles, but not in Theophanes’ Chronographia, I have suggested that Michael’s and the Anonymous Chronicler’s common source was dependent on Theophanes’ source, not on Theophanes, as has previously been suggested. Fifthly and lastly, I have attempted to (partially) reconstruct this Greek and this Syriac source by isolating common material in Theophanes’, Michael’s and Chron. 1234’s description of the fourth, fifth and sixth centuries, and tracing this material back to Socrates, Priscus and other unknown sources. On the basis of these findings I have hypothesised that Chron. 1234 is dependent on a Syriac history or chronicle, written between the middle of the seventh and the latter half of the twelfth century and based on a Greek history that was written between the early seventh and the early ninth century. Though I have refrained from identifying the Greek intermediary, which presumably was also Theophanes’, source, I have suggested that this Syriac historian may be Ignatius of Melitene. I hope my hypotheses will function as a catalyst for future research to further investigate the relationship between Theodore, the Epitome, and Theophanes, and will take the Syriac witnesses into account.


    p.427:

    Quote
    These are but a few concrete examples of the results that this research has produced. Questions that were raised decades ago have been answered, but some of these answers have raised more questions. Despite the fact that the major Syriac chronicles have been edited and translated and have attracted a considerable amount of interest in recent years, and one, including at one point the present author, may believe that research in this field would not yield any more valuable results, the present volume shows otherwise. On the contrary, a close-reading and textual comparison of Greek, Syriac and Arabic chronicles allows us to reconstruct now lost Syriac, Greek and Arabic sources.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8545 - December 13, 2019, 02:08 PM

    Debié p.373:


    You see that Chron. 1234 does not take its information in 1234. But from Theophilus (d.780-85) via and Dionysius of Tell-Mahre  (d.845).

    She adds the topic of the paper which is not "from where Theophilus got his informations about Islam ":
    Their topic is to see if one can reconstruct the Theophilus text and his Roman-Syriac sources. Not Muslims:

    The question: from where Theophilus got his informations about Islam  (which is my topic) is not their topic, because it is evident that it is Muslims which provide them.

     Andy Hilkens, p.8.:

    p.12.:
    n.12:
    p.13:
    p.423.

    p.424:

    p.425:
    p.427:


    Thank you for reading me that Ph. D. thesis of  Andy Hilkens dear Altara....   Yes too much reading and running in circles..., And you are absolutely right ., If one is looking for history of early Islam , why look at what what Theophanes wrote ? after all he copied from what  Theophilus wrote/transmitted ?   I was discussing this subject literally some 10 years ago..  at   http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=178558#p178596

    Quote
    Quote
    skynightblaze wrote:  ...................................It is claimed from the quote of Doctrina JAcobi that Muhammad was alive by 635 Ad however Theophanes who was born around 760 AD wrote that Muhammad died around 629 AD to 630 AD. So again my question is who is correct here? Theophanes or Doctrina Jacobi? Please read the quote from Theophanes in the spoiler below..
    Quote
    yeezevee: if Theophanes was born around 760 AD then by the time that guys started writing something such historical importance of that time., he must be at least 20 year old guy., That means Theophanes must have written his documents on Muhammad around or after the year 780., Again that means ~150 years after the death of Muhammad., So whatever he has written on Muhammad he must have got it from some other source..

    So the question to you SKB is., why do you trust Theophanes history on Islam??


    that is what I said some 10 years ago.,  there is more in that folder on that subject..., Any ways you write .. "from where Theophilus got his informations about Islam  (which is my topic) is not their topic:" ..

    I am glad you are going to original source.. which is  Theophilus  instead of those secondary sources such as  Theophanes or x, y, z....

    So did you write publication/ anything on that ? and did you read this booklet?


    Theophilus of Edessa's Chronicle and the Circulation of Historical Knowledge in Late Antiquity and Early Islam (Translated Texts for Historians LUP) 1st Edition by Robert G. Hoyland


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8546 - December 14, 2019, 01:44 PM

    Nope I did not read it. I will try to get it.

    Quote
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=178558#p178596
    So the question to you SKB is., why do you trust Theophanes history on Islam??

    Theophanes informed by the Muslims, or copied from someone  like Theophilus /Dionysus informed by the Muslims. No question of trust/or not trust; those guys write what the Muslims says about their history. They do not have the means to says that it is historical or not; it is not their topic, they are not 21th c.scholars.
     
    ----

    Quote
    skynightblaze: Spencer uses a Byzantine source named Doctrina Jacobi to claim that Muhammad did not exist until 634 Ad.


    And Crone before him (Hagarism, p.3) used the Doctrina Jacobi to claim the exact contrary .Scholarship is on her  line; evidence of historical Muhammad comes from the 7th c. accounts which allude to Muhammad especially the DC.

    But...It is not really that; Spencer uses the DC to show that what Crone claims (it is evidence that Muhammad the prophet of Islam did exist because of the DC) is inexact as the DC does not describe the Muhammad of Islam who will be known later.


    Spencer has a point.

    Spencer wrote:
    Quote
    In this case, “incredible” means “not credible.” One thing that can be established from this is that the Arabian invaders who conquered Palestine in 635 (the “Saracens”) came bearing news of a new prophet, one who was “armed with a sword.” But in the Doctrina Jacobi this unnamed prophet is still alive, traveling with his armies, whereas Muhammad is supposed to have died in 632. What’s more, this Saracen prophet, rather than proclaiming that he was Allah’s last prophet (cf. Qur’an 33:40), was “proclaiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come.” This was a reference to an expected Jewish Messiah, not to the Jesus Christ of Christianity (Christ means “anointed one” or “Messiah” in Greek).


    For me it is the bold which is important here. Spencer points the real issue of this scholarship claim: it is the evidence of the historical  Muhammad the prophet of Islam.
    It is not. Why there is nothing about that in the Quran? Wink
    Muhammad did not exist; Mecca/Kaba/Zem zem as well before Islam.

    Quote
    skynightblaze: It is claimed from the quote of Doctrina Jacobi that Muhammad was alive by 635 Ad however Theophanes who was born around 760 AD wrote that Muhammad died around 629 AD to 630 AD. So again my question is who is correct here? Theophanes or Doctrina Jacobi?


    It is not the topic as Theophanes (as already said) copy what says the Muslims from Theophilus/Dionysus:
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=178558#p178596 :


    Quote
    Theophanes wrote:
    In this year died Muhammad, the leader and false prophet of the Saracens, after appointing his kinsman Abu Bakr to his chieftainship. At the same time his repute spread abroad and everyone was frightened. At the beginning of his advent the misguided Jews thought he was the Messiah who is awaited by them, so that some of their leaders joined him and accepted his religion while forsaking that of Moses, who saw God. Those who did so were ten in number, and they remained with him until his murder. But when they saw him eating camel meat, they realised that he was not the one they thought him to be, and were at a loss what to do; being afraid to abjure his religion, those wretched men taught him illicit things directed against us, Christians, and remained with him.

    I consider it necessary to give an account of this man’s origins. He was descended from a very widespread tribe, that of Ishmael, son of Abraham; for Nizaros, descendant of Ishmael, is recognised as the father of them all. He begot two sons, Moudaros and Rabias. Moudaros begot Kourasos, Kaisos, Themimes, Asados and others unknown. All of them dwelt in the Midianite desert and kept cattle, themselves living in tents. There are also those farther away who are not of their tribe, but of that of Lektan, the so-called Amanites, that is Himerites. And some of them traded on their camels. Being destitute and an orphan, the aforesaid Muhammad decided to enter the service of a rich woman who was a relative of his, called Khandija[44], as a hired worker with a view to trading by camel in Egypt and Palestine. Little by little he became bolder and ingratiated himself with that woman, who was a widow, took her as a wife, and gained possession of her camels and her substance. Whenever he came to Palestine he consorted with Jews and Christians and sought from them certain scriptural matters. He was also afflicted with epilepsy. When his wife became aware of this, she was greatly distressed, inasmuch as she, a noblewoman, had married a man such as he, who was not only poor, but also an epileptic. He tried deceitfully to placate her by saying, ‘I keep seeing a vision of a certain angel called Gabriel, and being unable to bear his sight, I faint and fall down’.

    Now, she had a certain monk living there, a friend of hers (who had been exiled for his depraved doctrine), and she related everything to him, including the angel’s name. Wishing to satisfy her, he said to her, ‘He has spoken the truth, for this is the angel who is sent to all the prophets.’ When she had heard the words of the false monk she was the first to believe in Muhammad and proclaim to other women of her tribe that he was a prophet. Thus, the report spread from women to men, and first to Abu Bakr, whom he left as his successor. This heresy prevailed in the region of Ethribos, in the last resort by war: at first secretly, for ten years, and by war another ten, and openly nine.

    He taught his subjects that he who kills an enemy or is killed by an enemy goes to Paradise; and he said that this paradise was one of carnal eating and drinking and intercourse with women, and had a river of wine, honey and milk, and that the women were not like the ones down here, but different ones, and that the intercourse was long-lasting and the pleasure continuous; and other things full of stupidity. Also, that men should feel sympathy for one another and help those who are wronged


    All of this are mixed Muslim informations including the monk Bahira stuff, with some polemical stuff from Theophanes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8547 - December 14, 2019, 01:48 PM

    Review: Evolution of the Early Qur'ān: From Anonymous Apocalypse to Charismatic Prophet, by Daniel Beck

    Quote
    This book is part of a current trajectory in Qur’anic Studies considering the origins of the Qur’an in relation to its Late Antique and, especially, Syriac context. The book theorizes a specific anti-Sassanian context; its main argument being that the Qur’an evolved, with its earliest chapters directly related to the apocalyptic literature during the Byzantine–Sassanian War, and fully engaged with that struggle, which is an innovative hypothesis. Some of the arguments presented are compelling. Others are necessarily more speculative due to the nature of such study, as the author is aware, but the book opens interpretive possibilities that would be missed by traditional approaches.


    https://www.academia.edu/41271068/Review_Evolution_of_the_Early_Qur%C4%81n_From_Anonymous_Apocalypse_to_Charismatic_Prophet_by_Daniel_Beck
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8548 - December 14, 2019, 02:09 PM

    Nope I did not read it. I will try to get it.

    Altara that book JPEG  picture is embedded with  book pdf file ., please click and download to read it
     

    Abdulla Galadari  is  very smart guy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8549 - December 14, 2019, 03:38 PM

    Ok thanks.
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